Aftermarket air filters, voided warranty

[DieselDixon]

I was at the dealer last week and the service adviser told me about a TSB that was going to be issued this year. He said that GM is having problems with people losing their transmissions by running the "oiled" type of aftermarket air filters, he stated K&N. His reason was because the oil from the filter was getting picked up by the passing air and getting deposited onto the Mass Airflow Sensor, this was in return giving the computer false signals under highway speeds and giving the transmission more pressure then it should have. He said the bulletin would state that if you have one of these filters on the truck your warranty would be voided.

Anyone heard of such a problem?

[ochster]

Unfortunately for me, my local dealer has basically said the same thing to me. His wording was vague as to a particular mod, but stated any mod would upset the warranty and require a review.

[Kennedy]

I don't buy it especially related to the Allison, BUT just to be safe, I'd recommend washing the box and cleaning the MAF sensor with an electrical parts cleaner prior to any dealer service just to be on the safe side. Oil CAN affect the MAF sensor reading, but it is easily cleaned. I'd be willing to bet that hundreds, if not thousands of MAF sensors have been changed on Duramax trucks (many at owner's expense) nationwide. Few if any were actually bad...

[DieselDixon]

I'm a little surprised no one is concerned about this. I heard it and thought, dam the tranny has something like 100k warranty on it. Hope I saved all the stock stuff because if anything ever happens I will need to switch it out. In fact I might end up cleaning the MAF when I clean the filter from now on.

[Kennedy]

Allison is covered under the 3/36 warranty...

[madmatt]

I've seen a bunch of trucks w/ oil type filters and honestly had very few problems w/ them. I haven't heard of this bulletin yet but who knows. I was always told that unless a mfg. provided a customer maint. items such as filters, free of cost, then they couldn't by law void your warr. for using a type other then oem style. I don't know if theres any truth to that or not , but it sounds about right.

[KGS]

My neighbor works for the local Chevy dealer in the Service Dept. He told me that same thing this past summer. It will apply to ALL GM vehicles.

[dmaxalliTech]

TSB states to look for it, but i cant see where its gonna damage a tranmission...

Keep a paper element/stock box and just put it back in for your dealer visits.

[ochster]

While thier is NO basis for the dealers or GM's logic, I dont see that being the point. The last thing I would want if at the mercy of a dealer in an emergency/dire situation, is to have some service dude pull a power trip cause of a "gray" loophole. Even worse if said service dude has been schooled or reinforced in such matters. Its that exact possibility if towed in off the road while on vacation, or on a business trip with cargo, that makes me leary of some worthwhile enhancements to my truck. I thinks it stinks that this is the angle GM is promoting, especially since we are paying to help them do their R&D.

[More Power]

GM would be within its rights to deny coverage if there's a problem that was caused by or affected by MAF sensor contamination (oily residue), but not otherwise.

The aftermarket air filter market, as a whole, is too large to be ignored (or be negatively affected) by any vehicle manufacturer. IMHO

MP

[rickdlance]

I think they also have to show the oil cantamination as the problem. If you have a bad mass air flow and they pull it out and its covered with oil, I think they have the right to do it.

[ochster]

I completely agree in a situation created from a mod. But my point is the warranty or their cooperation being subject by the mere presence of a mod, such as a exhaust brake, or a auxillary filter, etc.

[64postcarnut]

My feelings exactly.Who travels with their stock exhaust and 4 stock-sized wheels and/or tires in the bed,too.What are you going to do,change out the parts on the shoulder before the wrecker comes?The last thing I need is to be bent over at an out of state dealership,while travelling or pulling a trailer,for a $5K injector replacement.

Forget Magnussen-Moss,it's worthless.I don't want to hear the "gotta pay to play" arguement, either.How many people here have had to fork over big bucks for the above scenario?

I halfway think these service mgrs.and techs get a "spiff" from Gm for every warranty they can void for suspicious mods.I know they don't, but why are they soooo aggressive to void a warranty?

I'm going to have to take my truck back a second time for the steering shaft vibration.I can't wait to hear them tell me it's because of the Bilsteins,and not covered.

[dmaxalliTech]

Looks like you need to find better dealers. Impossible if stranded on road of course. Techs as a whole look for a way out of doing warranty work as it dont pay as good as customer pay. They dont care about you, its about their paycheck. Dirty MAF can be cleaned easily.

[64postcarnut]

What do you do when every dealer in the area says the same thing.

It goes like this:
Them:"Exhaust system voids warranty".
Me: "How does an exhaust system crack the injectors?The injector problem goes back to '01,even on stock trucks.And besides,at this altitude the truck doesn't even make it's rated power".
Them:GM told us to void warranties on a modified truck.

The story is the same for oversized 265 tires,except that the original sized tires have to be re-mounted on the truck in order for any drivetrain warranty work to take place.

Who wants to put up with that BS? I can't drive 50-60 miles out of my way to a dealer that "looks the other way" for warranty service.This warranty policy has gotten worse since I bought the truck.

[MIKE WIENER]

I do not understand some of these dealers. why do they give such a rash of crap on denieing warinty. If they do the work they get paied for it by GM. I am wounder if they are having other problums with GM and are sckared to turn in any warinty clams on any thing.

[dmaxalliTech]

64post, I agree but unfortunatly its not getting any better. GM is cracking down on the dealers and thats where they are getting heat from.

We had a truck come in today (04LLY) setting EGR codes, I noticed right away exhaust was changed and no kitty, thus the EGR codes. Popped the hood and seen the pyro wiring tied off to no mans land and other 'signs' that the truck was modded... I called the guy up and first thing I said was " why did you take your edge box off" I swear I heard the phone hit the floor...we talked and discussed it, basically told him I didnt care and why the EGR codes were setting. I am installing a finger stick in the EGR circuit Monday to correct..

[madmatt]

we don't get any "spiff" from GM for dening warr. work nor do I get any pleasure from dening it. I try every way around dening warr. work because warr. work is better then no work even more so if we're slow. But as a tech it is true I perfer customer pay jobs over warr. jobs because the CP jobs pay on ave. 40% more.

[64postcarnut]

Originally posted by dmaxalliTech:
64post, I agree but unfortunatly its not getting any better. GM is cracking down on the dealers and thats where they are getting heat from.

We had a truck come in today (04LLY) setting EGR codes, I noticed right away exhaust was changed and no kitty, thus the EGR codes. Popped the hood and seen the pyro wiring tied off to no mans land and other 'signs' that the truck was modded... I called the guy up and first thing I said was " why did you take your edge box off" I swear I heard the phone hit the floor...we talked and discussed it, basically told him I didnt care and why the EGR codes were setting.I am installing a finger stick in the EGR circuit Monday to correct.. Well, as a Dmax enthusiast you've gone out of your way with that customer.The techs and SMs here don't care,they don't drive the trucks.You are the exception,I'm sure,even at your dealership.It's so ridiculous that you can't even put decent tires on the truck.I wish I'd known how rigid enforcement was going to get,I wouldn't have bought the truck.I also figured Mag.-Moss would give me some leverage,but that's useless.The onus is on me to provide the proof,not the other way around.

I'm willing to assume the liability if it were a turbo problem and I had an exhaust system on it.But to deny warranty service across the board because of it,is unbelievable.

[madmatt]

bulletin # 04-07-30-013A hit the toolbox today.it states in more words that the use of an aftermarket air filter will NOT void your warr......unless it is the direct cause of the failure. straight from the bulletin it says.......transmission or engine driveability concerns(related to the MAF sensor being contaminated w/oil)that are the result of the use of an aftermarket reusable, EXCESSIVELY/OVER-OILED air filter are not considered to be warrantable repair items.

[DmaxMaverick]

Thanks Madmatt for the info.

However....
There is a far cry from drivability issues and failures. Low power, or off timed shifts are very different from an outright blown tranny, that gets blamed on the MAF sensor.

I think interpretation is more of a problem with GM's handling of warranty issues, than the actual problem itself.

We have a few tech's (including yourself) that drop in on us here, that seem to be a little more realistic than most of them in the shops. I am lucky to have a good tech at my GMC dealership. He may not know everything (a good thing, IMO), but will entertain any plausible idea when facing a difficult issue. The Chevy dealership here has the "don't tell me my job" attitude. I'll drive 60 miles to get good Chevy service.

Also, in case any of you didn't know....
If your 3/36 warranty has expired and you have a GM extended warranty, you don't have to take your vehicle to the same make dealer. ANY GM service dept. can service any GM make for GM extended warranty work.

Once again, thanks Madmatt.

[Kennedy]

There should also be a SIMPLE directive that IF the MAF sensor is suspect or oily, the technician is to simply remove it, and clean it with denatured alcohol or electric parts cleaner spray, then re-evaluate the performance rather than just condemning it. The old part (if condemned) should also be offered to be returned to the customer.

[Jim Brzozowski]

JK, you are right, and obviously someone who can still fix things. Dealers don't spend time fixing things. You can't get them to work on a part that needs repair. They just replace. They've got way more vehicles to work on than they can possibly handle. The last time I went to a dealer I had to schedule a week in advance before they could even get to look at the truck. AT least the guy told me straight out that you can bring it in today, but it will just sit here for a week and no one will even look at it, you may as well keep driving it until thursday next week.

[ursusdiesel]

I have a K&N filter on my 2003 D/A. Have had it on for about 30,000 km. no problems. Is it easy to clean the MAF sensor? Thanks for any advice

[madmatt]

Document ID# 1587795
2005 Chevrolet Chevy K Silverado - 4WD


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Info - Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Use of an Excessively/Over-Oiled Aftermarket, Reusable Air Filter #04-07-30-013A - (Jan 25, 2005)
Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Use of an Excessively/ Over- Oiled Aftermarket, Reusable Air Filter
2005 and Prior GM Cars and Light Duty Trucks

2005 and Prior Saturn Models

2003-2005 HUMMER H2

This bulletin is being revised to add additional model years and to clarify warranty coverage. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 04-07-30-013 (Section 07 -- Transmission/Transaxle).

DO THIS
DON'T DO THIS

First, Inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket excessivelyover- oiled air filter
DO NOT repair MAF sensors under warranty if concerns result from the use of an excessively/over-oiled aftermarket, reusable air filter.


The use of an excessively/over-oiled aftermarket, reusable air filter may result in:

[jampsdmax]

Some of the gm dealers are great. My GM dealer put My exhaust on and pyro gauges. They are Great. Some Gm dealers sell programmers out of the parts departments.

[Spartus]

I've responded on a related topic before, and will do so again.

An over oiled filter can cause the resistors in the MAF to become covered with oil. Once covered in oil they can no longer efficiently detect the amount of air flow entering the engine. Usually noted in GMS (grams per second). If you are actually flowing 250 GMS, but the MAF is only seeing 100 GMS, then it will not be sending the proper readings to the PCM. The PCM uses readings from the MAF and TPS(Throttle posistion sensor) to help calculate LINE PRESSURE for the transmission.

The low GMS reading can inadvertantly cause LOW line pressure in the trans.. Causing premature failure while towing heavy loads and driving the truck hard.

Hope this helps some of you out.

[DmaxMaverick]

So.....

If the PCM can be fooled to underpressure the line pressure, causing slippage, can it also be fooled to increase pressure, to prevent slippage???

Maybe an added bonus could be more fuel (more air/more fuel, according to the fuel map with a MAF)? More air, more fuel. More fuel, more boost. More boost, more air. More air, more fuel, etc.....

Follow me?

Naw. It couldn't be that stupid.

[Madd Max]

Do you guys think the fingerstick would possibly correct this problem? Doesn't It trick the ECM by altering the MAF signal?
Just wondering.

Dennis

[DmaxMaverick]

I was just thinking out loud. I don't think it would work unless you fooled ALL the sensors. Too many failsafes.

[Texasdeere]

Great Post Spartus, madmatt!

What the hell is a "Fingerstick"?

Is there a good hypo airfilter that doesn't use oiled filter media?

I just got a 05 Dmax, and I am afraid to do anything to it!

Starting to miss my Dodge a little....

Erik

[MIKE MOG]

i wish we got a spiff for turning down warrenty work. i would be rich today. like madmatt stated, i will take the warrenty work just for something to do. our shop is slow also. by the way, does that fingerstick use the 5 volt ref line? haha.
mike

[ursusdiesel]

I currently have a K&N air filter installed on my DMax. No problems yet. Where's the MAF and what's the easiest way to clean it? I've kept the stock filter element for when I visit the dealer. Thanks guys!

[ursusdiesel]

I currently have a K&N air filter installed on my DMax. No problems yet. Where's the MAF and what's the easiest way to clean it? I've kept the stock filter element for when I visit the dealer. Thanks guys!

[R Hood]

Don't buy the balony from any dealer, boys!

I've been there done that with a blown engine. The dealers first try - after market air filter!! After that they tried to pin it on my Banks goodies.

Bottom line - GM paid for everything, $14,000+.

You just have to fight em.

[2002GMC Durabeast]

I am new to this site, but I have a question... Can somebody post the sequential directions on how to remove and clean a MAF sensor to include the BEST electrical parts cleaner to use.

Thanks

[2002GMC Durabeast]

I just had another thought... maybe this latest info on warranty claims moves the plug and play upgrades such as a Predator or a Intimidator up to the forefront??? I don't have any, just a thought.

[2002GMC Durabeast]

Maybe on this site, you have to have a minimum of 100 posts before someone answers???

[DmaxMaverick]

Originally posted by 2002GMC Durabeast:
Maybe on this site, you have to have a minimum of 100 posts before someone answers??? Yup. You're gettin' there.....Just kidding. Have patients.

To answer your question....
There is no "procedure" for doing it. You don't need to remove it to clean it. If you remove the intake pipe from the air cleaner box, you can get to it easily. It is the only thing hanging down from the top of the pipe, and it will have an electrical connector going to it on the outside. If you want to remove it, you'll need a "tamper-resistant" torx bit.

Best suggestion I can give is...
Remove the intake pipe at the airbox. Stuff a CLEAN lint-free cloth into the intake pipe past the MAF and spray away with your cleaner. After it is clean to your satisfaction, wipe the pipe as you remove the cloth, but don't touch the MAF with it. The only thing that should touch the MAF is the cleaning fluid. Button up the intake pipe and off you go.

As far as the cleaner goes, any electrical/electronics store can help you with that (Radio Shack, Best Buy....). Make sure it is a non-acetone type that evaporates and leaves no residue. Acetone may (likely) have an adverse effect on the plastics of the MAF and surrounding parts.

[ChevyDealer]

WOW! This post seems to have hit a nerve with some. I read posts on this forum for over a year before registering and have only recently commented. As my Display Name states I am a Chevy Dealer and I have always found the info here useful and informative from many of you. We try to use the common sense approach to many things in our shop and we take care of our customers.

The Magnuson-Moss act is real but unfortunately many dealers don't even know it exists let alone what it says. They are concerned about chargebacks from GM, which is when GM reviews a previously submitted and paid warranty claim and then takes the payment back from the dealer because they have deemed that the Policies and Procedures Manual was not followed. I'm sorry that many of you have to deal with the frustrations of an uncooperative dealer. It all goes back to the dollar. GM is not looking for ways to deny warranty coverage when it is legitimately due to the customer.

As madmatt posted "The use of an aftermarket reusable air filter DOES NOT void the vehicle's warranty.

If an aftermarket reusable air filter is used, technicians should inspect the MAF sensor element and the air induction hose for contamination of oil prior to making warranty repairs."

All a dealer has to do is follow the directions and take care of the customers.

[2002GMC Durabeast]

Thanks Dmax Maverick!

[rickdlance]

ChevyDealer, where are you located?

[Brian DMT]

Guys - I was a full K&N user until I found out that oil sample testing always indicates very elevated silicon levels (sand in the oil), which means you're actually buying/installing accelerated engine wear rates. Perform the standardized air filter tests (like SAE J726C Test Method which tests for air flow, dirt removal and filter life) on a K&N & it performs miserably in both particulate removal and in particulate holding capacity. Further, the oil K&N uses really isn't suitably designed for the purpose - it's a thin oil without tacky properties, which will migrate down the airflow path fairly easily.

The superior approach is the dual-density 2-stage foam filters that use a "high tack" oil - that's what I run in my vehicles now. Last month I pulled oil samples on my Duramax and sent them to two different oil sampling labs. One report came back showing 3 ppm silicon, and the other with 9 ppm silicon. Hey, the wind could have added that much contamination before I got the lid on the sample bottle!
Anyone out there with a K&N who can share their silicon levels?

I can recommend the Amsoil unit, and the one that Kennedy Diesel offers (it uses a high-tack oil too, doesn't it?). You still get the high-air-flow benefit, and 25,000 miles between cleaning/re-oiling, but the dust removal is MORE effective than the paper filter and the problem with oil migration contaminating the MAF is FAR LESS LIKELY !

There's a fair amount of data out there on this, but it's harder to find than it should be. Here's one link:
http://www.synthetic-oil-tech.com/d.cgi/1220579/articles/2_stage_air_filter_dusts_the_competition.htm

[DmaxMaverick]

Greg Landuyt at www.lubricationspecialist.com (http://www.lubricationspecialist.com) offers the full range of Amsoil products, including oiled foam air filters, and is an advertiser here in TDP. John Kennedy at kennedydiesel.com also offers a high quality oiled foam filter, as mentioned by Brian DMT, and he is an advertiser here in TDP.

Other TDP advertisers offer similar products as well. Find them at TDP Advertisers Section. (http://www.thedieselpage.com/vendors/main.htm)

[ 05-22-2005, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: DmaxMaverick ]

[More Power]

There's an interesting air filter test video on www.trueflow.com (http://www.trueflow.com) . Their filters appear to be very much like the Uni filter.

MP