View Full Version : My first Diesel... Oil change interval
jeff1216
01-05-2005, 03:02
Do you guys actually trust the truck to tell you when the oil needs changing....or just pick an interval and change it???
05 LLY (build date 11/04)
The specs on the 2002 LB7 say 5000/7500 based on Heavy Duty or Light duty operation. I split the difference and go every 6k - 6.5k. I figure that's twice the oil as a normal vehicle (5qt vs 10qt) so you'll be at twice the regular mileage. 3k vs 6k. I believe on the newer LLY engines they've upped the oil interval to 15k for mild driving. Someone with a 2004.5 or newer might want to verify this.
The first thing I did with my 2004.5 LLY was pull it into the garage and do a complete lubrication service. I was advised to do this by a friend who worked at FORD. There was half the amount of grease it was supposed to have in the rear-end and the grease joints took, guessing, 6-8 OZ before the boots would even slightly move. It has 11 zerks all easily found.
After the greasing it was like somebody turned the power steering on. The transfer case was fine and front axle was fine but I changed all that over to synthetic. Transmission was fine too and changed the filter.The engine got fresh Mobil Delvac 1300 15W-40W. Filters are all Baldwin with one Racor for fuel.
Actually,I just changed the fuel filter at 10K with a RACOR and it had about 1 ounce of water in the bottom. Not too bad. No gunk in the filter and looked nice inside.
Throw the grease to it and look at that rear end ! I changed to all synthetic except engine which I will do next service at 15K.
Also, I had to top-off the rsdiator overflow tank with that red anti-freeze.
Bugsy:
Your comment has aroused my curiousity:
There was half the amount of grease it was supposed to have in the rear-end and the grease joints took, guessing, 6-8 OZ before the boots would even slightly move.Where do you add grease to the rear of the truck?
BudTx, I was going to ask the same question!
Originally posted by DarylB:
The specs on the 2002 LB7 say 5000/7500 based on Heavy Duty or Light duty operation. I split the difference and go every 6k - 6.5k. I figure that's twice the oil as a normal vehicle (5qt vs 10qt) so you'll be at twice the regular mileage. 3k vs 6k. I believe on the newer LLY engines they've upped the oil interval to 15k for mild driving. Someone with a 2004.5 or newer might want to verify this. I have an 05. I'm @ 1504 miles tonight. Oil life is 80% according to DIC. That calculates to a 7500 mile oil change if 1500 miles is 1/5 of the oil life.
Edited to answer your question. I intend to do my first oil change @ 5000, then go to synthetic and change @ 7500 mile intervals at most.
as a GM diesel tech I reccomend to my customers mobil delvac 1300 change @ 6k w/ a fuel filter every other oil change and a rotate every oil change. our customers who purchased from us get free rotate w/ oil changes so thats no big issue to them. Also my experence is diesel engine+ synthetic oil = trouble!!! i'm not a scientist so I can't explain why but it seems the anti-foaming agents and cooling charicteristics weren't as up to par. seemed like the fleets that ran syn. had more turbo shaft and cam failures. ( in Cat powered trucks @ least.)
I guess I should say rear end "FLUID" instead of grease. The rear end fluid level was 2 quarts low when I got the truck. It holds 4 quarts by the manual. My friend's GMC the same way.
Also,"I had to put 6-8 oz of chassis grease in the joints to get the boots to move."
Maybe that clears it up. I grew-up calling rear end fluid-grease. Old school.
too what level when compared to the fill hole did you fill the rear end? example...1 inch below hole, running out hole, etc..... also what part of Louisville are ya in. I used to work for Whayne Supply, and am now with a "small" gm dealer in So. Ind.
Originally posted by madmatt:
Also my experence is diesel engine+ synthetic oil = trouble!!! This is a very interesting observation. I Worked only one year fulltime a tech, but I am still part time. The only sludge/oil related engine failures I've ever seen have been where synthetic was used. HOWEVER, those cases were all related to people thinking they could get more miles out of there oil than they could....not to put anyone down, but there were a some not-so-savvy women driving late model BMW 700 series that really pushed the limit. One 740 had coke build up on the dip stick and on the inside of the oil fill cap. That car had a total of 77,000 miles on it, and probably only three oil changes.
That being said, when synthetic oil has been used in the same intervals as fossil, I have definately seen cleaner cylinder heads (valve cover gasket replacement).
MadMatt, can you associate any mileage interval or brand with failures? I would be very interested to know. I have also had my doubts about synthetic having seen many more vehicles than just my own.
When I called three other dealerships they ALL told me "until it starts to run out the hole."
However, I talked to other people that said to do 1 inch below the hole. I did it to right where it was just starting to come out the hole.
BUT, the specs say 4 quarts. My friends GMC took 4 quarts and was two quarts low also. When I checked the front differential I took the plug out and fluid was barely coming out of the hole so I guess I filled the rear right.
B1powered
01-07-2005, 07:46
Also my experence is diesel engine+ synthetic oil = trouble!!! i'm not a scientist so I can't explain why but it seems the anti-foaming agents and cooling charicteristics weren't as up to par. seemed like the fleets that ran syn. had more turbo shaft and cam failures. ( in Cat powered trucks @ least.) That is LOAD of BS. Sorry to be blunt, but the information you have given has nothing to do with Synthetic oil, only lack of maintainance.
Synthetic oil in every test I have ever seen has whipped conventional in cleanliness, lubrication, resistanct to coking, hot temp burn off(volatility), and HEAT TRANSFER out of engine hot spots.
Sorry, but this is something that really annoys me when this DISinformation is spread.
Let me get some thoughts rolling....
Can you imagine how BAD that fleet would have faired using Conventional oil and keeping their Synthetic "PM schedule" !! :eek:
Talk about oil related problems!! :eek:
Disinformation???? maybe disfunctional reading ability on your end of the deal because like I said .... this was just my experence w/ syn. and diesel engines and I never said this is how it is period, all the time. but surely someone as sharp as you would have caught that had he read it completly and throughly. h*ll whats my opinion worth, I've only traveled to a couple different countries and dozen or so other states to fix diesel gensets and pump engines when other techs were unable to.
Paintdude
01-07-2005, 16:48
Jeff, you need to do oil analysis to really know anything..Find a Archer Oil dealer in your are and if you buy his product he will give you free oil analysis..
Like said above,diesel=dino oil..I agree and I change mine every 5000 miles unless the analysis recommends longer intervals or shorter..
I couldnt be happier with the results I have been getting...
jeff1216
01-07-2005, 18:02
Paintdude...you on the ZRXOA board?
Paintdude
01-07-2005, 18:34
DOH!! Yes, JEFF!! Hows the glass bussiness, My glass repair kit still works....They Duramax a new service truck or is the new ES rally unit???
bugsy, spec on that rear end is 1- 1.5" below the hole. GM TAC says level w/ bottom of hole could cause axle and pinion seal failures. We too had a rash of brand new trucks that didn't even have that much grease in the rear end. seems like they have that lined out now.
Madmatt,
The only way I can figure how to get 1-1.5 inches below the hole is to stick my little finger in there and when it hits the oil I'm right. But, the specs say 4 quarts, if I remember right, and if you put that in the fluid comes to the hole and runs out a little. Next, the 3 dealerships I called, because I was getting different stories, all said "until it runs out the hole." So, here I am with another vote for the 1-1.5" under the hole. I think I'm just gonna let it ride for now.
The next time I'm under there I will look at the seals and if they are seeping or anything I'll let a some out where I can stick my little finger in there and when I hit oil I guess that is it.
The dealerships say one thing and other people say something else. All I know FOR SURE is that GM shorts the fluid level and they don't grease the things either. At least mine anyway.Someone might view this as a way GM screws things up from the beginning and everyone assumes a new truck has been serviced and by the time they have trouble the warranty is gone. Afterall, a guy from FORD told me to put grease and oil in it immediately and he drives FORDS. Go figure. If it blows the seals out then..., well whatever.
madmatt,
Welcome! Nice to have another GM tech on the forum http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif
I have a question regarding your post: “GM TAC says level w/ bottom of hole could cause axle and pinion seal failures.” I had the drivers side rear seal fail on my 03 at 24K and the dealer fixed it under warranty. I had found oil on the rotor when rotating the tires as shown. :eek:
http://thumb3.webshots.com/s/thumb1/8/7/23/139080723yFaWcq_th.jpg
Rear Seal Leaking (http://community.webshots.com/photo/65684589/139080723yFaWcq)
Prior to finding the leak I had changed the rear dif fluid (using Mobil-1 75w90) at 5k - it was about a quart low. I have since changed it again and still have no leaks at 36k with the fluid topped of to the fill hole (about 4 qts). I seem to remember reading that GM has decreased the fill capacity spec for the 04 & 05’s to about 3 qts, down from 4 qts for the 01-03’s. Does the TAC recommendation also apply to the 01-03’s?
Coincidentally, today I also noticed that some diff oil had blown out the front vent tube. :( I removed the fill plug and it seemed a tad low so I topped it off – only took a few oz before oil ran out the fill hole. I may have overfilled it when changing the fluid recently (M1-75w90 synthetic- 5 kmiles earlier). It’s also been very cold here lately. I’ll be keeping an eye on the end of the vent tube it to see if it leaks again. I also have the newer White (synthetic compatible) vent connector/cover (http://www.gmtechlink.com/images/issues/feb03/TLFeb03e.html#story13). Anyone have thoughts on what might have caused the oil to blow out? The HELMS says the interior shield on the vent connector could be stuck in the upside down position.. ??
smile.gif
OK,
I went into the garage and got under the rear and nothing leaking or seeping that I could see.
While I was under there I just set the rear end fluid level where it is 1" below the hole. I didn't let all that much out. Anyway, that takes care of that. I used the "little finger" method.
That truck ain't rocket science under there.
Bugsy
I use an allen wrench to check the diffs. I found one that the short end measured out to be about 2" and made a scratch on it @ 1", 1.5" and 15mm. the 99-02s i think stayed w/ the 15mm spec. If they changed that I haven't seen anything about it.
B1powered
01-08-2005, 12:38
Originally posted by madmatt:
Also my experence is diesel engine+ synthetic oil = trouble!!! i'm not a scientist so I can't explain why but it seems the anti-foaming agents and cooling charicteristics weren't as up to par. seemed like the fleets that ran syn. had more turbo shaft and cam failures. ( in Cat powered trucks @ least.) Seems tha Synthetic lacks the "high quality" anti foaming agents and cooling charicteristics. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
What nonsense!
All the tech info I have ever seen says EXACTLY the opposite. Ever wonder why dino has to be religously changes..? One of the reasons is because every time it gets hot it rots and boils off leaving varnish and other "nice" things. How about when this starts hapening, the additives are being used up in the oil to stop it's own destruction. High heat is another issue, ever heard of Coking the turbo? Guess what that's another "freebie" when using Dino-----
There are plenty of MYTHS about synthetic floating around from undereducation on the subject, unfortunately there are also plenty of Lab tests and studies to disprove the common myths. Myth------Busted :eek:
B1powered
01-08-2005, 12:44
Here's one link---
http://www.authorized-amsoil-dealer-for-synthetic-motor-oil.com/amsoil_articles/myths-of-synthetic-oils/
Another
http://www.mobil1.com/index***p
Another article
http://www.carjunky.com/news/motor_oil/mom5.shtml
look at the differences in this short comparison
http://www.authorized-amsoil-dealer-for-synthetic-motor-oil.com/amsoil_articles/mineral-petrolium-oil-compared-to-synthetic/
Shall I go on??
Here's some redline info
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/redtech1.htm
another
http://www.firstfives.org/faq/oil/oilartcl.html
[ 01-08-2005, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: B1powered ]
for some reason I get this feeling that the only "TECH INFO" you've ever read on this matter is coming from the back of the syn. oil mfg's bottle. read all the tech info you want. All I said was in my REALWORLD EXPERENCE I've noticed otherwise. and it was not just a fleet it was several big name fleets that had their problems w/ this.
B1powered
01-08-2005, 13:28
Thing is that you chipped in the "knowledge" that the customers problem was the synthetic, and that supposedly synthetics+diesels=Bad. :rolleyes: Plllleeeeeaaasssseeeee!
Do you expect a synthetic to actually have LESS heat transfer, High heat stability, cold temp lubrication, Deposit control and Anti foam properties than a
Conventional hydrocracked oil?
http://www.billssyntheticoils.com/images/ser_3000_test.gif
jeff1216
01-08-2005, 14:35
Originally posted by Paintdude:
DOH!! Yes, JEFF!! Hows the glass bussiness, My glass repair kit still works....They Duramax a new service truck or is the new ES rally unit??? This is Lloyd right?
The truck is all of the above plus grocery getter.
Glass business is going strong.....Doubled sales over last year.....shooting to double again this year.
You do know that KenR is selling for me right??
give me a call 843-412-3551
Jeff
Paintdude
01-08-2005, 17:56
Yup its me Jeff. Glad to hear you are doing well...I will give ya a call..I havnt seen Ken since Daytona last year..
As far as the Duramax, I recommend DIno Oil,oil test and fuel lubricants..
HAS ANYONE NOTICED AFTER AN OILCHANGE A SMELL OF OIL JNSIDE THE CAB? I THINK I HAVE NARROWED IT DOWN TO POURING OIL IN TO FAST, I USE 2.5 GAL JUG OF AMSOIL AND POUR?
Originally posted by BARRY H:
HAS ANYONE NOTICED AFTER AN OILCHANGE A SMELL OF OIL JNSIDE THE CAB? Barry,
This is normal ... my truck (03) does it too. The odor comes form the crankcase vent tube on the lower-front passenger side of the engine. Some oils have a stronger odor than others but it will usually stop after a few hundred miles
BILL...
THANKS FOR THE INFO. I HAVE AN 03 LB7 ALSO. BARRY
b1 do you belive everything you read??? yes I did chip in my 2 cents, which was just my experence and opinion, but I don't feel that gives me the right to attack anyone elses like you have mine. opinions are like as*holes...everybody has one and some of them stink. if you love syn., fine. To be honest w/ you I have had good results w/ it in gas engines, but I would never put it in a diesel. Going back and forth like a coulpe a' 14 yr old girls is getting us nowhere. belive what ever you want to, I will as well and we'll quit taking up space in this forum and wasting peoples time who might come here looking for help/info
B1powered
01-09-2005, 15:48
OK,
How about you provide some info Matt about Dino's superior detergency, heat transfer or anti-foam properties...........
Sorry, I figured the advantages of synthetic were fairly well known amongst people interested in lubrication technologies.....
Ok,
This bickering back and forth should come to a stop immediately. Everybody has their opinion and experiences with dino and synthetic. It's beating a dead horse now.
Bugsy
B1powered
01-10-2005, 15:36
Exactly,
Opinion or heresay is one thing.
Truth and facts is another.
No conventional oil(dino) WILL EVER out perform synthetic in any lubrication aspect except price per quart. Not even possible.
Group II or III(hydrocracked) will always lose to a group IV(PAO).
My dealer service shop recomends changing oil/filter on diesels at 5K, gas at 3K. Since they only charge $20 for oil/filter change, lube, fluid top off if you buy the vehicle from them, I just bring it in every 5K. Had them do the first change at 2500miles. At this price I can't even do it myself for less.
bugsy,
got the new TSB on rear diff. fill level. it comes out to be something like 3.1 qts or no more than 1.4" below the fill hole. I could've said exactly but I left the papers on my toolbox.
I made a note.
Mine is pretty cose to that level now.
rjschoolcraft
01-17-2005, 06:46
I must chime in on the synthetic vs. fossil oil...
For background, I've been a mechanical design engineer in the aerospace/marine gas turbine industry, industrial/heavy equipment/agricultural industry and automotive industry for 20 years. Spent about seven years as the lead mechanical systems designer on the Allison Model 250 helicopter engine (powers the OH58D Kiowa Warrior, OH6 "Little Bird" and about 60% of the light turbine powered commercial helicopter market.
Synthetics are flat better than fossil oil...PERIOD! In fact, you are not even allowed to use non-synthetic oil in any of the gas turbines that I've worked on. They are inherently more stable because they were engineered to be so. The only reason to not use synthetics in diesels or automotive gas engines is purly cost. At the recommended change intervals, fossil oils will do the job...but that's where the recommended intervals came from in the first place.
A properly formulated synthetic will outperform a properly formulated fossil oil in any application. Myself, I run synthetic in the winter and fossil in the summer. May run synthetic year round, depending on oil temperature data that I will be collecting in the future.
I have run AMSoil 15W-40 in my '01 D/A for 60K + miles with no problems. I change the filter every 10K, with analysis, top off crankcase, and change the oil once per year(@20K interval), despite oil analysis results say changing is not yet necessary. I flog my truck on a semi regular basis :D . Cold starting is where this oil shines. My old boss ran the Harley race team for several years, says they independently tested AMSoil among several others, said the product was excellent, but didn't use it due to marketing (said it reminded him of pyramid scheme) so I figure based on his experience plus my own (better economy, smoother running)not to mention the aviation industry synthetic is the way to go. 96K miles and counting with nothing other than fuel pressure regulator replacement.
The following is a quote from the Jan05 issue of GMTechlink (http://www.gmtechlink.com/images/issues/jan05/TLjan05e.html#story7)...
"The following 2005 engines have synthetic engine oil installed at the engine plant
2.0L LSJ
3.6L LY7 Cadillac only
4.6L LH2
6.0L LS2"
smile.gif
Paintdude
01-18-2005, 05:17
Lets see the oil analysis....I have seen no benefit in running synthetic oil in my diesel over dino oil...
I have to ask also, why would you run both in yours? I was always told to not mix the two...I know they make semi-synthetic oils now adays and That is what I use in my motorcycle. Motul semi-synthetic..
I use synthetic in my new gas engined truck and always have high silicon,copper contents..
rjschoolcraft
01-18-2005, 06:33
I run the Rotella T 15w-40 in the summer because it is cheaper. I run the Rotella T 5w-40 in the winter because the engine cranks much faster and starts easier. This engine went 159,000 miles with no oil related problems. I did recently have a piston failure from excessive EGT in the past (before modifications). But that's a different story.
Notice, too, that I said a "properly formulated" synthetic. You can't just throw in any synthetic and expect it to work. It must be formulated for diesel use...to control soot, etc.
You do what you want. It's your truck.
DmaxMaverick
01-18-2005, 10:16
Ronniejoe
You do what you want. It's your truck. That is the bottom line. Absolutely. No question.
That being said, and I am not in any way intending to start a dino vs. synthetic war, I fail to see your logic.
Just for the sake of discussion (or argument), if you feel the synthetic offers you more protection in winter, why wouldn't it do the same in the summer? It turns over easier in the winter for a reason. It's not just the lower W viscosity. It is also lower friction. The base viscocity is the same between the two, so engine running at operating temps should be the same, oil-wise, theoretically. Why would you subject your engine to more stress, just because it's warmer out? The advantages of synthetics are equally improved at the other end of the scale, like when you are running your engine at the upper end (or beyond) of its cooling capacity. The Duramax is a poor demonstration of the effects of heat on an engine oil, due to its over-engineered cooling and lubrucation systems. I have run dino oil in the heat of CA summer (110
rjschoolcraft
01-18-2005, 10:27
It's been purely a cost consideration so far. I figure I save some money in the summer months...maybe I'm costing myself in the long run. I put on a lot of miles, and do a lot of oil changes. The cost of the synthetic adds up after a while.
I've also found that my inherent 6.5 leaks are worse with the synthetic...unless it is just my imagination.
This new engine that I will build probably will use synthetic from the start and year round. I will do the best I can to seal up the leaks that had developed and go from there. I will also probably start with oil analysis with the new engine. I've been through that with aircraft engines, but just couldn't bring myself to do it for this diesel previously. If the analysis will allow me to extend drain intervals with just filter swaps (as is usually the case), then I can recover some of the cost from using synthetic year round.
Sometimes I'm a little stubborn...(just ask my wife!)
Jim Brzozowski
01-19-2005, 10:15
ditto what ronniejoe said, I too have done the research years ago while building racing engines.No conventional oil will take what synthetic oil will take. Of course if you are one who believes in 3000 mile oil changes, don't even think about synthetics unless you are extremely hard on the engine or it's -40degrees outside. When it gets that cold, you better have synthetic oil or you may not move.
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