View Full Version : OK......Pre or Post OEM Fuel Filter
MaxDiesel
03-17-2003, 22:01
This subject has been beat to death!
But now I'm really confused. Up until about a week ago, I thought I should put a Racor 690 or Standyne unit Pre OEM. I like seeing the water in the filter by looking under my passengers seat and looking into the clear bowl that these units have. But after the premature clogging issues that have been cited, what left is Post OEM. Now with the Kennedy MEGA filter, everyone loves it and I hear nothing of the Pre OEM system. The problem that I have with the Kennedy system is that its troublesome to access and change as compared to the Pre system. I know there is no "cake and eat it too", but I would like to have a system that is not to troublesome if I should happen to get a bad load of fuel and not have work clothes on. The access and easy changeablity of the Pre OEM system seemed the answer. But if Premature filter use is the down side, I'm thinking I should I take the inconvenance of the secondary location and go with the Post System?
I must say that I found Racors comments very interesting and a differant point of view from what I have been reading. I would hope that he would comment on this thread along with any others that might be interested.
Jim
MaxDiesel,
I originally thought that access would be a lot better
with the filter assembly on the frame. What I find out
now that I have played with this both ways is that changing
out the filter UNDER the truck is a messy deal with diesel
fuel running down my arms when I worked on it.
BTW, it took me just as long to mount the assembly under the
frame as it did under the air box, so that is not an issue.
Access to the filter assembly mounted under the air box
is really not bad. Remove 7 plastic clips and the fender shield
comes off giving you access to BOTH the primary and secondary
filter. Once the fender shield is removed it is a piece of cake
to get at both filters and I didn't get diesel fuel all over me.
Whether you select JK, Stanadyne, Racor or Cat, that is a personal
choice. I really don't need a fuel bowl now that my Racor Filter Assembly
is mounted as a secondary filter. It is a great idea if your going to use
it as a primary filter.
Maybe some JK owners can comment on this, but I think JK's set up has some
defection involved with the fender skirt because of the size of the Mega
filter. I have about a 1/8" bump about the size a beer can top with the
fuel bowl kissing the skirt. I have the midsize Racor 660 and don't think
I could go with a taller Racor 690 without having more problems
with clearance with repect to the fender skirt.
John's replacement fuel filter is a $40 item, but it should out last
all of the rest because of it's size.
Hope this helps.........
[ 03-18-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
MaxDiesel,
Beaten to death, you're right.
I see it this way.....It is only logical to go post OE filter. As far as FILTERING goes, pre-OE is non-sense.
Is pre OE easier to change? Yes, and a good thing because you will do it often.
I just installed my JK. I am limited in my mechanical abilities so I had a friend help. It really was pretty easy and I can say that changing this filter will be easy. If you are only changing the MEGA filter, only remove the front fender liner plugs and roll it back. You'll need to take out the fender liner anyway to remove the OE unless you like cussing a lot. I plan to keep a kit in my truck( I have a crew cab) with all the tools and extra filters. Don't be intimidated by the replacement hastle. The placement isn't as bad as you think and you'll replace it a fraction as often as any pre-OE unit. SPICER
Don't mean to be negative about this fender shield thing, but removing it when its -10 F, and the shield is full of slush, ice, sand and salt does not sound fun at all. I'm not sure you could even see the clips until the ice was melted from the wheel well. If I could just be guarentee'd that the filter would never clog in the winter... :cool:
roegs,
I am a fellow northerner(GO PACK!!!) and so is JK. No guarantees but JK and George have both said that a quality additive will take care of any gelling fears....Plus, if it is icy and slushy, who wants to change a filter anyway? You'll probably get a glop of salty slush in your new fiter while attempting to change it out no matter where it is. Call for a tow and let it thaw out in a garage! SPICER
MaxDiesel
03-18-2003, 01:11
Spicer,
I probably fall under the "limited" catagory in the mechanical catagory and am looking for as little incovenance should I pick up bad fuel or get into a gelling situation.
You mention a kit for the fender removal. I would be interested in what you are considering included in that kit. I am concerned about the reuseablity of the attachment screws of the fender shirt and how easy they would remove in incliment weather and more importantly how they would hold and performe after I have done the filter replacement.
Also, I would asssume that I would only need to keep a replacement for the OEM filter in my truck (right?)
Jim
LanduytG
03-18-2003, 06:05
No guarantees but JK and George have both said that a quality additive will take care of any gelling fears....
All I haver to say is this. While it holds true most ofthe time additive does nothing if you get water and its -20 on the side of the road. Been there and have had to deal with it. At that point it does not matter where the filter is it is still a pain in the a$$.
Greg
Pre-oem is nonsense? Let's review together-
1) Kennedy's filter can be also mounted pre-oem. Somewhere he posted that after reviewing the issue with George Morrison he was going to remain neutral as to whether it is pre or post. He even provides instructions for both installations. Scratch your head and ask yourself why?
2) One of the largest GM dealers in Central FL (I know these opinions will vary widely) didn't like the idea of post-oem. As a pre-filter they thought it was a good idea. I think you will have no warranty issue with a pre-oem installation. I'm not so sure about post-oem. If there is an injector failure and you have interrupted the fuel system after the OEM, you are going to have some problems I'm afraid, especially if there is any foreign matter in the system. In other words, the potential exists for something to get into the fuel system that the OEM filter never saw.
3) The guy that helped design the fuel system (Racor) says go before it. Don't interrupt it. That alone is enough to get me thinking.
4) Auxillary tank manufacturers recommend and sell pre-filters. They don't recommend you go put a post-filter. Scratch your head and ask yourself why? Liability?
5) GM says DO NOT USE ADDITIVES. Go ahead if you want to. You think it's better? Obviously they think it's worse.
6) If you have diesel fuel running down your arms when changing the Racor filter you did something I don't do.?. I can change my Stanadyne and never lose a drop if I have a couple paper towels wrapped around it. I change twin Racor's in my boat without losing any fuel into the bilge. It's a fuel filter. The Kennedy filter isn't going to come out without some spillage from what I see in the pictures.
7) I am wondering what will happen with a 5 mph (10, 20???) truck wearing 285
235/265 are so close in size you are splitting hairs. My point is to CAUTION owners of those trucks with mega offset wheels to check for clearance as I would rather not have someone order a kit and then return it because of clearance issues.
The pre/post issue is to remain neutral, BUT I've installed mine POST. If the OE Racor isn't doing it's job, it isn't going to cut it as a secondary either...
I think a guy could change my filter on his knees with the wheel angled properly. On the frame rail, you would DEFINITELY end up on your back.
As for carrying spares, ALWAYS carry a spare filter for EVERYTHING fluid related. You never know when you may need them...
It should do just fine as a secondary if the 7635 does it's job as a primary.
And it should last a lot longer.
I didn't even bother taking the tire off when I installed
my assembly....... :rolleyes:
TraceF,
I applaud your integrity. It is good that we have somebody looking at other options and questioning that which is assumed. I call pre-OE installs nonsense because it doesn't make sense to brush your hair with a fine-toothed comb first and then with a garden rake last. If I read JK's logic in designing the MEGA correctly, he gives the option to go pre-OE for those who worry about warranty. The mastermind of this ingenious set-up went post-OE and that is what I did.
I had a thought and maybe it won't work due to restrictions, but what about mounting an OE before your big filter under the rig. This would be 3 filters. Is that feasible? Peace, SPICER smile.gif
I have no doubt changing the MEGA filter will be easier than crawling under the truck to the frame rail. Just stoop down by the front of it.
I also discovered that by pulling the two pins for the headlight and laying it out the way the bleed screw in looking you in the face. All of about 10 seconds to remove. Just for those of us that does not use the long screwdriver and wants to wipe up the fuel as it comes out. It keeps getting more awesome. :D :D :D
56Nomad is right on.I installed my Mega filter without taking the wheel and tire off.
TraceF: the rubbing I had was under the filter and the clearance I had before was 1.2 inches from the bottom lip of the liner.After install .25 inches.I got back to my original gap by making a small L shaped bracket that goes betwwen the core support and the liner.It sucked the bottom lip right back to stock dimensions.Any rubbing I had was far below the filter so I don't think you would have a problem anyway.I'm using BFG's 285 75/16's which are similar in size to yours. :D
Trace,
You Wrote:
>4) Auxillary tank manufacturers recommend and sell pre-filters.
Do you know if they are recommending and selling a
2 micron absolute filter?
One other issue to consider if you are planning to
hang the pre-filter on the frame is it's vulnerability
to impact from road debris and other off road
hazards :eek:
When I initially put my filter assembly on the frame,
I had planned to add a skid plate to protect it.
Also, I was limited to the Racor 660 filter because the
taller 690 filter would have dropped the plastic fuel bowl/nipple
below the frame rail :mad:
There is more than one way to skin the cat with this fuel filter
issue and personal choice is obviously the biggest factor in how
we each approach the problem. I don't think there are any wrong
approaches in what many of us are doing to try and make our
fuel as clean as possible ;)
pinehill
03-18-2003, 11:22
An additional advantage of post OE installation is that you are then able to check for leaks on the filter/hoses just added by pressurizing with the OE primer. There's no convenient way to check for small leaks on a pre OE filter.
[ 03-18-2003: Message edited by: pinehill ]</p>
SPICER- Thanks for the comments. I only have a fine tooth comb. :D
a bear- The headlight thing is cool! Good observation.
NWDmax- I'm not saying it doesn't fit, just that it concerns me a little. If you have been 4 wheeling a lot you know that the front tires can go places under stress that they don't go under normal driving conditions or when you are sitting in your driveway with the wheel turned hard over. If you don't believe me turn your wheel hard left and put a 4x4 behind the wheel and have your wife back up slowly. The tire will move forward slightly as it moves up. What about a major impact? As the suspension travels aggressively and either front tire grabs or crosses something the steering geometry goes away. I've seen steering tires do an axis orbit (full left to right and top to bottom wobble) while the suspension was recovering from an impact.
56 Nomad- No, I don't know but I imagine it varies from mfr to mfr. If anyone has this figured out it should be you. You considered Stanadyne, CAT, and now installed Racor both pre and post if memory serves me. If you are worried about the 690 size wait until you see a 7635 beside it! Getchoo a Kennedy Mega and tell us your impression. :D
pinehill- Leaks are certainly a concern but properly applied thread sealant and machine pressed fittings WITHOUT heat should give good seal. The hose fitter I use said the hose becomes elastic when heated (duh) and may not completely return to it's original size and strength. I would definately use clamps if you heat the hose. TIGHT.
By all means- try everything !!! Six months from now we should know what works and what doesn't. Right? tongue.gif
BTW- Racor will soon introduce an aftermarket for the Duramax. Let's see if they go pre or post. ;)
Why would Racor want an aftermarket filter. The way he talked about the OEM I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. :eek: :eek:
Profit?
"Racor" the poster has a different motive than "Racor" the company I guess.
[ 03-18-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>
Trace,
You are quite correct in that I considered Stanadyne, then
purchased a CAT filter assembly but the model I bought was
to restrictive. I did install the Racor 660 both pre (on the frame)
and post (under the air box). I've had a lot of fun playing with
the truck and plus my labor is real cheap :D
I like the set up I have, but it will be a while before I can
tell if it is the best way to go.
What the heck is a 7635??? A Google search says that it is a
"huge space bubble"
Yes, I think I would go with JK's assembly for the convenience
in that it's all set up.... ready to rock and roll plus the fact that
he will back up his product with help to answer any questions
you might run into with installation. JK has a great product
and it's priced right for what you are getting. John has certainly
done his homework.
[ 03-18-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
pinehill
03-18-2003, 15:56
56Nomad
The 7635 is the model number of the Baldwin "Mother of All Filter Elements" in JK's kit.
Lone Eagle
03-18-2003, 16:00
I ordered my Racor 660/2micron from DIS today. They made it clear that they and Racor didn't like another 2 micron in the system. I tried to explain why I was doing the mod but they weren't interested. I am not bashing these guys. I do all my business with them and am 100% satisfied. I spent a lot of years working with hydraulic systems and made my decision relieing on that and the info from this site. As long as we don't exceed the maximum suction head of the pump we will not hurt anything.
That said, I have a question. It looks like the EDU is on the inlet side of the fuel filter. Are my bi-focals deceiving me? I wish someone would post a mechanical drawing for this system. Later! Lone Eagle ;)
DURA-MAX3
03-18-2003, 16:00
For the nine hundreth or millionth time, get a filter system that is made for a real truck like a cat, baldwin, or fleetgaurd and the filter media will handle the load. I have never seen racor or stanadyne filters on any cat, cummins, or detroit diesel engine from the factory. I have about 2000 miles since my pre-filter install with the 2-micon cat syatem i have had no problems, but i did just get the best mileage i have ever gotten pulling my trailer(14)....
DURA-MAX3,
Are you saying that our Duramax trucks are not "real trucks"??
Come on........... :rolleyes:
Why do you think that the engineers who build one of the best
diesel engines would select Racor to exclusively make the fuel
filters for their fuel system?
[ 03-18-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
IIRC, Aeroquip recommends heating the hose to install.
Also worth noting, someone mentioned painting the blue stuff in jest. The black hose is not as common, but is what I have chosen for this kit so as not to stand out. I believe Mdrag even ran his inside split loom...
DURA-MAX3
03-18-2003, 16:40
Well first these are pick-ups. What i am refering to a truck would be peterbilt, kenworth, etc.
My point is the filter i am using is made for much larger engines and fuel rates than we are. You could not burn in a year what i burned in my Cat 550hp engine in 3 months. Why do you think JK is using a very large BALDWIN filter, ITS MADE
FOR TRUCKS....... Is anyone seeing my point here.
I think the reason we have racor is it was cheaper for gm to get, if it wasn't we would not be having a problem with fuel particles...Just my opinion...
[ 03-18-2003: Message edited by: DURA-MAX3 ]</p>
DURA-MAX3-
If you can find a cross reference to a Baldwin BF 7635 on ANY truck I want to hear about it.
As far as I can tell there is NO specific application. It's a multi-purpose high efficiency filter.
(Of course, I could be wrong) tongue.gif
DURA-MAX3
03-18-2003, 17:16
Yes but they make filters that will fit on cat, cummins, and detroit filter heads.
Your point is taken.
The Stan 100 series filter I am using is rated for 400 hp as a final filter. I wanted to know how far it would go as a prefilter. The 1000 series is rated for 600 hp as a final filter.
Like I said, and I think you are saying, it's all about media size if it's a 2-mic prefilter.
Lone Eagle,
You are correct. Unfiltered fuel passes through the EDU before entering the OEM filter. The ONLY reason the fuel passes through the EDU is simply to cool the electronics. (Just a cooling coil feature) This fuel is in no otherway related to the EDU. ;)
Lone Eagle
03-18-2003, 19:21
Thanks a bear. Later! Lone Eagle
DURA-MAX3 and all,
To get a really thorough perspective on the quality of Racor filtration as
a 2 micron absolute filter*..... you really got to read the entire string-
Fuel Filter Test Results Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 at:
http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=004373&p=1
*(I
dmaxalliTech
03-18-2003, 19:58
i have a fuel system flow schematic at work, I will get it tomarrow and get it where you all can see it that are interested.
This has really been an interesting thread. I think that TraceF has some very good points about pre-oem related to warrenty issues. I understand that everyone has their own choice, and I'm just hoping for good solutions either way. Sounds as if TraceF may be working on another solution for pre-oem, and I'm excited to see what it is. :D
Its also been good to have Racor on the board. Sounds like some of you may feel that he's biased. Guess I didn;t see it that way...he stated that they built what they were asked to build, a filter that met Bosch's requirements for the injection system.
One last question on pre-oem filtering. Can the JK system be mounted on the frame rails as some of the other sytems have been, or is it too big?
JK's filter is too long to go between the frame rails.
I got this email tonight- thought you may find it interesting:
<<Trace,
I have been following the fuel filtration issue very carefully and have
looked at your photos. Nice install.
I too am concerned about a post oem install due to lack of room in
engine compartment and particularly, warranty issues. My truck wouldn't
start about one month ago, and after it was at the dealers for 4 days
they found a leak in the oem filter. I had changed the filter about
3000 miles before and they claimed that that was the problem. They went
ahead and installed a new filter. No problems since, but there have
been several others who have had mysterious loss of prime issues. If
you put in a post oem filter, I can guarantee that the dealer will not
go any further to solve the problem. >>
Just an opinion but probably on the money I think.
Kennedy- regarding your comment- <<The pre/post issue is to remain neutral, BUT I've installed mine POST.>> Let's face it, if your truck won't start, you are going to fix it. What are the rest of us gonna do when we are trying to get to work or the kids to school? Unhook the post-oem filter so we can try to start it or get it towed to the dealer to have it worked on? The FIRST place they are going to go is to the fuel system if the engine turns over. I can hear it now. We can't work on this... what are those hoses for... where is the...??? I think the simplicity of the plain view pre-oem filter gives us the advantage with the dealer.
$ ,02 more. I must be up to at least a buck or two by now. smile.gif
[ 03-18-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>
Trace,
If a "technician" cannot handle a simple issue like determining adequate fuel supply, he does not belong working on your truck... :rolleyes: It is really quite simple. Pump up the primer until there is pressure, open bleeders. Close bleeders, and pump to pressure again. if it doesn't start after this, the problem is elsewhere. If you get a REAL idiot, you just replace the factory hose from the factory filter to the pump suction port and away you go. Heck, you could even snip the hose between my filter and the pump port, remove the other hose from the factory filter outlet, and only have to make one connection to attach the filter to the pump. I figure 15-20 minutes tops and ANYBODY could do this...
Duramaxallitech,
I too have the schematic in question, BUT like most GM documents, it is copyrighted material so I am having it redrawn and simplified along with adding some detail and correcting some component positioning.
[ 03-18-2003: Message edited by: kennedy ]</p>
Anyone,
What are the physical dimensions of the Kennedy filtering system (base and filter)?
Thanks,
Alan
JK..I don't think TraceF is questioning the IQ of the technician. The issue is will the dealer support a fuel system that has been modified after the oem filter. In my case, its a 'no' from the dealer...that is not if I want any warrenty work done. I suspect it would be the same at most dealers. We certainly can't expect GM to pay technicians time while they try to figure out changes made to the fuel system.
Lone Eagle
03-18-2003, 23:38
I agree with you 100% John. If warrantee concerns keep some awake at night, I recommend you don't put another filter on at all. You need to have the expertise to troubleshoot and repair what you change. John is trying to stay neutral on where to put his filter because he doesn't want to get in an pi**ing match with a few folks that don't understand basis engineering practices. Where John put his should tell you something. Later! Lone Eagle ;)
MaxDiesel
03-19-2003, 00:14
Roegs,
I'm not too concerned about stealers and there not upholding the warrenty issue.
In regards to "We certainly can't expect GM to pay technicians time while they try to figure out changes made to the fuel system." If the tecks can't figure out that there is another filter and trace those lines and be able to figure that out, then they certainly don't deserve to work on my truck.
Lone Eagle, I agree with you. Other than a possible warrenty issue,
what are the technical reasons to support putting in a Pre-OEM filter?
I couldn't think of any........ so that's why I moved mine from the
frame to under the air box.
When I first approached this project, I looked under the hood
and thought...... heck, it sure would be easy hanging this filter
on the frame rail. I just wanted a simple solution to the problem.
However, after trying to keep up with the numerous
strings on this filter issue, I saw the errors in my way and made
the change. Folks, you do not have to be a rocket scientist to
install one of these filter assemblies under the hood. JK makes it
even easier and has done all the hard work in mass producing a
solution! If you like to tinker and have a preference for something
other than a Baldwin filter, well...... you can see that we have
some great options.
Also, if you have to bring the truck into the dealer for warrenty work
and you suspect you're going to have problems........ just reinstall
the 10.5" piece of factory hose you removed. Piece of cake :D
[ 03-18-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
I would agree that from a technical perspective, post oem makes more sense. I pick up my new truck today (kinda excited ;) ), and hope to ask the Service Manager his opinion...this is a different dealer than I normally go to. Maybe I'm too warrenty paranoid since the truck is brand new....
Lone Eagle
03-19-2003, 11:29
56Nomad, My statements were in support of post OEM. Later! Lone Eagle smile.gif
Lone Eagle,
Thats exactly what I said....my statements too, were in support
of a post OEM filter.
However, what I would like to see is someone who supports the pre-OEM
filter set up, provide us with the technical reasons why they think that's
the best way to go.
Other than warrenty issues or "my mechanic may not be willing
to work on it", or "the expert that I talked too said" ....... what
specifically supports any logic in putting in a pre-OEM filter?
[ 03-19-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
DURA-MAX3
03-19-2003, 12:18
Ok here is what i think after reading all of this. If you put your 2-mic filter before the factory filter make sure the filter media is big enough to last 5000k miles or so at least. Another advantage is you might not have to change the factory filter as often. If you put is after the factory filter the media size is not as critical. I chose the Caterpillar set-up because i have personnally ran these filters with no failures in over half million miles(semi truck).One other thing is that if there is warranty issues i can say that the fuel went through the factory filter, just like before i installed the cat set up, before it goes through the engine. I think the final outcome is going to be the same, cleaner fuel, and that is the goal. I have called 3 dealers in my area and none have said that they thought this would cause any warranty issues...
DURA-MAX3,
Good points.......
> Ok here is what i think after reading all of this. If you put your 2-mic filter before
> the factory filter make sure the filter media is big enough to last 5000k miles or
> so at least. Another advantage is you might not have to change the factory filter
> as often.
However with the way I have my "after the factory" filter set up, I am planning to
change out my primary factory filter at 15,000 as normal. As my secondary 2 micron
filter is catching only the "small stuff", I'm hoping to have it last just as long. It would
seem that your maintainence costs would be higher than mine if indeed I can get that
kind of mileage with my secondary filter. Maybe I'm being too optimistic.
As we experiment...... we'll find out :D :D :D
56Nomad-
I cannot give you technical specifics as to why an additional filter shouldn't be post-oem. However, I would argue that it is technical in nature that a design engineer from Racor has posted that the factory filter system meets Bosch's design requirements and is not as "flawed" as some on this board perceive and represent it to be.
As you remarked when we spoke early yesterday, other vendors seem to support that this is not as big an issue as is perceived in this and these numerous other fuel filter threads.
I also think it is technically significant that "Racor" recommends that if the fuel system is modified, it should be pre-oem. I consider the design engineer the expert among us.
On another issue, you wrote earlier:
<< ChevysRus,
If you were that unlucky to crash and then burn because Mega Filter
got crunched.....your valued insurance company would pay
you for the actual cash value of your truck.
Regardless of any modifications. >>
Those of us with business backgrounds know that while the insurance company may pay, they are most certainly going to subrogate against John Kennedy's Manufacturer's Product Liability Insurance. Lacking any industry rating or approvals (SAE, ASTM, UL, etc) they would most certainly prevail. He has put (from a safety perspective) an untested, unproven, unendorsed product in the hands of retail consumers. These consumers are protected by specific legislation designed to put liability burdens on manufacturers of products that fall short of established safety standards. Whether the design and recommended installation is safe remains to be seen but this is a huge risk in today's litigious environment.
I would caution everyone installing a fuel systems device of any kind in the engine compartment to be aware that the vast majority of vehicular collisions involve the front of the vehicle (common sense) according to the NHTSA and this is why so many consumers
Trace,
Glad we had a chance to talk yesterday. Yup, love to tinker on the truck too.
I can' t believe that I was within a mile of your house on my trip to
Florida earlier this month. Dang, next time I'm out there we'll be able
to change our filters together and do some TDP bonding plus have
a few cold ones :D
You wrote in part:
> As you remarked when we spoke early yesterday, other
> vendors seem to support that this is not as big an issue
> as is perceived in this and these numerous other fuel filter threads.
Correct. One of the vendors had such a strong contrary opinion to what I was doing,
that he would NOT even sell me a 2 micron filter assembly. I found that very
interesting, but I guess everyone is entitled to a bad hair day
> I also think it is technically significant that "Racor" recommends
> that if the fuel system is modified, it should be pre-oem. I consider
> the design engineer the expert among us.
IIRC, Racor representatives recommended going with a 10 micron pre OEM filter
IF the Duramax fuel system is modified. That tells me that they recognize the
fact that a 2 micron pre OEM filter is going to clog much sooner than
we would like to see. Also, I can't see them "recommending" a modification
that might imply that their OEM filter is not doing it's job.
All the best
[ 03-20-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
pinehill
03-20-2003, 11:43
TraceF,
Your comments are thoughtful and well stated. I do believe, however, that you weight some of these things much too heavily.
I discount, to some extent, Mr. Racor's statements reguarding placement of an auxilliary filter. If he were to agree that post-OEM was appropriate, he would, in effect, be admitting that his OEM filter is inadequate. His statements may address technical matters, but his motivation is to defend and justify the OEM filter. Also note that while Bosch's design requirements may be entirely adequate for the much cleaner European fuel, they may not be at all adequate for the filthy stuff we pump into our tanks.
By way of my business (and technical) background, I can say that your description of a potential legal scenario is plausible. But I don't agree that it is a "huge risk". A VERY small fraction of our DP population will ever be involved in a serious front end collision. A fraction of that fraction will experience a resulting fire, and a fraction of THAT fraction will see legal complications. As for JK, I would bet that he has himself well covered, from a liability standpoint.
In today's environment, almost anything you do, or don't do, can be taken as cause for legal action, including almost any modification you make to your truck. I'll take reasonable precautions to avoid moderate to high risk situations, but I don't believe that JK's filter in the engine compartment falls in either category.
> In today's environment, almost anything you
> do, or don't do, can be taken as cause for
> legal action, including almost any
> modification you make to your truck.
Pinehill, Good thing is, you can't file a lawsuit against yourself :D :D
pinehill-
Edit my 3am post to remove the word huge. The rest remains.
Do you think GM, Isuzu, and Bosch aren't smart enough to know there are differences in fuel quality from one continent to the other? You seem to be saying the fuel system specification was written for a european truck.
I think "Racor's" real motivation was to try to get some accurate info out to the DP members. If he was defending their product he would still be posting. It seems to me like he did what he thought was right and went back to his job.
Here is a fact- we have one DP vendor that says we need a improved fuel filtering system and another that says "hogwash".
I discount everything I read in these forums. tongue.gif
[ 03-20-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>
Pinehill stated:
I discount, to some extent, Mr. Racor's statements reguarding placement of an auxilliary filter. If he were to agree that post-OEM was appropriate, he would, in effect, be admitting that his OEM filter is inadequate. His statements may address technical matters, but his motivation is to defend and justify the OEM filter. Also note that while Bosch's design requirements may be entirely adequate for the much cleaner European fuel, they may not be at all adequate for the filthy stuff we pump into our tanks.
************
I don't see how Racor would be admitting his OEM filter is inadequate by suggesting a post-oem filter. The way I read what he originally posted, Racor was contracted to build a filter to Bosch's specs. Racor did not set the specs. If we want to go beyond Bosch specs by adding additional filtration, does that admit fault to Racor? Not to me. As for Bosch design requirements, it would be quite an error for them to misjudge the whole US market.
[ 03-20-2003: Message edited by: roegs ]</p>
roegs-
Good point. pinehill may have read Racor as taking a defensive posture but they guy's posts read to me like neutral with the exception of believeing in the "overall" quality of Racor Company products.
First: The current DMAX filter actually exceeds the Bosch particle removal specification for heavy duty truck engines.
Any two reasonably-sized "2 micron" filters in series will remove more particles than a single "2 micron" filter. The the first filter might remove 98% of the 2 micron particles, and the second filter would remove 98% of the 2 micron particles that went though the first filter. The result is a lot less 2 micron particles.
A "10 micron" primary with a "2 micron" secondary will also remove more particles than a single "2 micron" filter. The results will also be nearly as dramatic as the previous example. The other way around works too, just not as well.
If one filter is tighter than the other, the finer filter should be, as a rule, last in the series.
I suggested a "10 micron" pre-filter to combat the asphaltines and water found in diesel, to protect the secondary, add life to the system, and lower the number of particles getting to the injectors.
If an owner puts a finer filter after the DMAX filter, it will lower the number of particles in the system. However, the primary filter life remains the same, and water removal under adverse conditions is not improved.
Adding a fine filter after the DMAX is OK with me if GM says it's OK. If you want the absolute minimum number of 2 to 5 micron particles entering the injection system, then that's the way to go. Whether or not that's actually necessary, or if it translates into a 500K engine, I don't know.
Lone Eagle
03-20-2003, 17:10
Racor, I have a question for you. Is your 660 2 micron a better filter than what comes on our truck? Later! Lone Eagle
<< I suggested a "10 micron" pre-filter to combat the asphaltines and water found in diesel, to protect the secondary, add life to the system, and lower the number of particles getting to the injectors. >>
This is essentially what I have been saying from the get-go (minus the asplaltines). I want an in-line 2-mic filter that's easy to service, keeps me away from the factory filter as long as possible, goes 2 oil changes, has a water drain, and that won't even raise my dealers eyebrows. JK's filter is all of this if put pre-oem.
Racor- What about a "2-micron" filter with +1900 inches of media in-line before the oem?
[ 03-20-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>
The Racor 600 series "2 micron" is the exact same "Aquabloc(tm)" filter medium that is found in the Racor DMAX filter.
If you have the space, you can't have too big a diesel fuel filter.
pinehill
03-20-2003, 18:59
After all this discussion, two facts remain:
1. We are seeing a significant number of premature injector failures
2. Measurements show that the fuel coming from the OEM filter contains more particulates than is healthy for high pressure injectors.
I can only conclude that:
1. The OEM filter was properly produced to a faulty specification.
or,
2. The filter does not meet a properly formulated spec. WHILE IT RESIDES ON THE TRUCK.
Take your pick.
And, BTW, I found Racor's last post to be reasonable and unbiased.
[ 03-20-2003: Message edited by: pinehill ]</p>
OK- Now who (step up at this time vendors) is going to knock on the OEM filter? The Aquabloc is Racor's (the company) newest product- resultant of years of R&D. As 56Nomad says- when you begin to "knock" please give technical support to your knockage. Not "I have seen"...
We are getting to the crux of this issue and I assert that many of us are the victims of "vendor hype".
On 2-19 at 7:32 am I posted the following in the "I'm Afraid" thread:
<< If there were a target for my aim it would be anyone fostering the premise that a detrimental condition exists when they are hawking the fix. >>
There have been literally dozens of forum posters contact me with opinions varying from "AGREE with you 100%" to "the vendors should be segregated in their own thread if they are selling something".
As I have said to those of you who I talked to you personally... and those of you who I talked to by email... and those of you who have read most of what I have written in the last 3 months...
THESE FORKING trucks will go 250-400k miles without ANYTHING bolted on- as long as you use current spec lubricants, change them at a reasonable interval, follow the manufacturer's guidelines on other maintenance issues, use quality lubricants and components, and fix the little stuff that goes wrong along the way. The little stuff (WIF light on for 2 weeks, SES codes, funny sounds, weird driveability, etc) usually means something is beginning to go wrong.
Believe it or not.
Bring it.
:rolleyes:
pinehill
03-20-2003, 19:31
Then why, if you feel that way, are you spending all this time and effort messing with auxilliary filters?????
pinehill-
Please represent with verifiable data-
"premature injection failure".
The dealers I am talking to are saying "HUH?".
BTW- I have been in the lubricants industry for 20 years this coming September, the past 7 in the environmental side of the industry. I know (literally) hundreds of dealers as customers, a few dozen GM dealers personally, and I have asked every one that I have seen since I bought my truck in early December what was "wrong" with the Duramax? What can I expect?
There is no consensus. By that I mean there is no regular, repeatable problem that I can see based on my less than scientific survey.
These are good engines. The Allison is a good transmission. GM went after the competition. And IMHO... compared to some of their past efforts the Duramax in the HD platform is damm near the bullseye.
pinehill- To answer << Then why, if you feel that way, are you spending all this time and effort messing with auxilliary filters????? >>
I support that the fuel can be cleaner.
Plain and simple.
NOT trying to go against you pinehill- just trying to get my point across.
[ 03-20-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>
pinehill
03-20-2003, 19:46
Not trying to mess with you either, Trace, but your actions and your statements seem quite contradictory.
BTW-
I count 26 posts sine we heard from a vendor on this thread.
As a reply to the last vendor post-
<< If a "technician" cannot handle a simple issue like determining adequate fuel supply, he does not belong working on your truck... >>
I think they are adequately qualified to work on the truck, I just suspect they won't want to work on a 2003 that's modified under the hood... Without telling me up front that I might have to pay for them sorting out the problems I might have with my bolt-on accessories.
Finally-
MrsTraceF says "get to bed, I know you will be up before the roosters..."
I leave you with this-
If you want to hear what forum readers think, and what forum members don't want to say- unshackle your balls, take a stand, and put your email address in your sig.
You will be amazed at what the "lurkers" have to say!
smile.gif
[ 03-20-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>
pinehill
03-20-2003, 20:13
If that last was directed toward me, be assured that I do take stands and that my male equipment is both firmly attached and unshackled. I also have the good sense to keep my e-mail address out of my sig file.
[ 03-20-2003: Message edited by: pinehill ]
[ 03-20-2003: Message edited by: pinehill ]</p>
I don't think anybody has a problem with fuel that is too clean.
A pre oem 10 mic filter will allow the stock filter a longer interval before change because the stock filter will plug less quickly.
Fuel that is cleaner will prolong injector life as Broker's experience shows.
No doubt there are those that will get a lot of miles without problems just running the stock set up with no extra filtration at all.
I for one don't want to take the chance of injector trouble caused by possible poor filtration the stock system provides.
I'm not saying its not adequate but its unproven in my opinion and all these posts on this subject is proof of that.
Just my .02 smile.gif
[ 03-20-2003: Message edited by: NWDmax ]</p>
poorloser
03-20-2003, 22:18
TraceF
Don’t let these guys get to you! It’s good to see someone that is not a sheep and just following everyone else. The only problem is dirty fuel and it does not matter where you take the dirt out as long as it is clean when it gets to the injector. I am putting on a double filter set up between my transfer tank and the main truck tank. Then I will filter all fuel that goes into the main tank first through a Racor 690 -10 micron, then through a Cat- 2 micron. Now, that should make clean fuel even if it is before the OEM filter.
1. Cost is reasonable – approx. $200. 2. No intrusion into stock fuel system 3. Easy to change if I get a new idea. Don’t get me wrong J. Kennedy and G. Morrison have great info and I could not have done this without there and others input but that does not make someone else wrong - just different and I love to be different! .
Rich Miller
pinehill
03-20-2003, 23:01
Yours is a very good solution, PoorLoser!
pinehill- NOT directed at you, directed at everybody.
You as much as anyone entertain me with your insight and ideas.
The point is that there are a lot more people that agree with some of my expressions than there are posting controversial opinions.
They just don't want to defend them.
LanduytG
03-21-2003, 06:36
I like how Racor says the media in the OEM is the same as the R45, 60 and 90. It may very well be, but I know one thing is for sure the OEM does NOT filter as well as the other filters mentioned above. I have a fuel report posted in another thread that proves the R45, 60 and 90 filter better than the OEM.
Another thing that should make you think and thats a statement Racor made about coming out with and after market add on filter. Seems to me that if the OEM is doing the job they say it does it would be a waste of time and resources to develope such a kit.
So you insert the extra filtration pre or post OEM. How cares which way you do it and if I have to spend $20 on a new filter very 5-10K so what. It is still better than $8k for new injectors. JK's system or the Racor 600 series is a good choice no matter where you decide to put it.
It has been mentioned that a filter plugged in 2300 miles. I would suggest a different fuel source be found. I have had a 660 on the 6.5 for over 7K miles and not a problem and I have some dirty fuel.
Greg
[ 03-21-2003: Message edited by: LanduytG ]</p>
Greg- the filter that "clogged" was mine. It was a Stanadyne 100 series. You can see it in my pics, the element is much smaller than the Racor I think. The filter did not clog, the engine did not die. What happened was the filter restricted the fuel flow enough that I sensed it, slight hesitation, etc. I am buying fuel all over the SE US. No place in particular.
Regarding testing. One or two cases where a fuel quality comparison was made after filtration does not represent a scientific study by any standard. It has been said over and over that fuel samples are very easily contaminated.
I agree with you suggestion that either added filter will be beneficial.
<< Another thing that should make you think and thats a statement Racor made about coming out with and after market add on filter. Seems to me that if the OEM is doing the job they say it does it would be a waste of time and resources to develope such a kit. >>
As I said before- "Racor Company Marketing" has a different motive than "Racor poster". The company recognizes the opportunity to make money. Add-ons are popular. You seem to suggest that the motive is to assist the oem system quality. I think there is more to it than that.
Trace,
You said <<The point is that there are a lot more people that agree with some of my expressions than there are posting controversial opinions.
They just don't want to defend them.>>
I don't think it's a matter of someone not defending their opinion. Personally I'm not going to continue to beat the drum on an issue with someone who thinks their way is the only way and will argue about the subject to no end even if it means contradicting a previous statement. The reasons I am going POST; 2 micron; large filter size are many. I will not continue to explain my reasons for this any longer. I will just continue to act upon my own experience in the mechanical field and will do it my way with my earned dollars.....
I think this is one of the best threads yet on filters, with good reasons on both sides of the fence. I mentioned in another post that I picked up my '03 on Wed (wow..what a truck! :D ), and asked the service manager about post oem filters. He had no problem with me doing it, and said it would not affect them servicing my truck unless they or GM could point to my filter as being the source of a problem. That being said, I still lean towards a pre oem system thats frame mounted. I think that all who have posted here would agree that any additional filtration is better than none.
Based on Racors comments, it sounds as if we are saying that the OEM filter will perform better with a pre oem 10 micron filter (such as the one posted by Ritchie Hayes in the articles section of Diesel Page). Does anyone know how much better the OEM filter performs in that mode?
I'm still curious on the pre-oem system that BROKER uses...does anyone have the specifics yet?
[ 03-21-2003: Message edited by: roegs ]</p>
Tommy- If you are referring to this <<Not trying to mess with you either, Trace, but your actions and your statements seem quite contradictory.>> as my "actions contradicting my words" my response is that when I installed my Stanadyne filter I thought this issue was bigger than it is.
I got this perception from these threads. Now, after talking to dealers, and vendors that contradict this, and reading what "Racor" has posted... I don't believe that there is as big a problem as some of you do.
I am still working on my prefilter because I agree that fuel can be cleaner and as I said my "projects" are fun to me. They are a distraction from a demanding and stressful job. I tinker when it's too rough to go offshore or don't have a crew of friends to take the buggies to the woods with.
Maybe it is a contradiction but it has evolved to be so over a period of several weeks. I don't think I need the pre-filter as much as I once did but I still want one. Cleaner fuel is a good thing.
dmaxalliTech
03-21-2003, 20:07
Here is my take on this filter thing, We dont need it, its useless. The only reason we do it is because somebody said something about dirty fuel and injectors going out. Lets face it, the only reason we do it is cause it gives us an excuse to tinker on our trucks and we love the smell of diesel fuel so much that that we cant think of anything better to do then go out in the garage and twist our bodies in inconcievable positions so that we may bask in the glory of the almight fuel down the arm and landing at the armpit. I think its a macho thing, manly man, smell like diesel. argh argh. It's to the point now where we like to expand on the simple add-a-element and go out and install pre and post oem filter setup. I am currently working on developing a fuel line that is lined with a NASA engineering synthic that is cabable of filtering down to 1 micron. I will sell it on ebay and make a fortune!! I say we should start a group, like DTA. Duramax tinkerers anomynous (butchered that word, but you get my drift). We can vote in leaders and all sit around and talk about how fuel filters have ruled our lives and how all these filter experts are just out to try and make us go over the edge and have to be admited.... Its all a hoax, oem filter is just a water seperator, the only filter in your system is in the filler neck, its restricts down to 1.25" and thats all the comfort I need..!?
Whoa.. headrush.. I have to go know, I think I hear the big brown truck coming, I think he has my MEGA filter that I ordered. ;) ;) ;)
I smell another "I'm Afraid" thread, or is that just the liquor that instigates it?
Maybe you can finish your argument after you finish installing your JK!!!! :D :D SPICER
Jim Cobler
03-21-2003, 21:50
I think you are right. We all love to tinker with our trucks! The other day I told my wife I was going out to talk to my truck. When she ask if my truck talked back, I said she just purrs.
Just for the record, here is my dealer inquiry results..... I was at the dealer today and asked to see the diesel tech. I posed him this question in front of the service manager..."I have heard that some owners are concerned about fuel cleanliness with these new high pressure systems. Some have even installed additional fuel filters giving them significantly cleaner fuel. There is also a lot of debate about installing these high efficiency filters before the OE unit in order to prevent a warranty issue....what do you think?"(this was paraphrased)
In a nutshell their collective response was....I think it is a great idea...there would be no warranty issue...why would anyone install pre-OE?...if I had a Duramax, I would install one...I see no warranty issues because you can never have fuel that is too clean.
I then told them that as long as their response was so possitive, I might as well tell you that mine is already installed. The Techs eyes lit up! I read his face and asked him if he would like to see it.YEAH! he said. He thought my post OE JK Mega filter was a slick, smart, well designed set up. He was obviously impressed and enthusiastic about it.
My mind is settled once and for all...POST-OE, JK did all the leg work and for a very fair price we can all reap the benefits, and the dealers perspective and stance is many times a result of how the question is asked. And no, I did NOT mention the internet! smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif
John Kennedy, any estimate as to when you will ship more Mega Filters? I am on the waiting list for a kit and a spare Mega filter.
I've got a few more in here today, but I'm hoping to try a few things in regards to the air accumulation issue.
In a nutshell, it's not really a big deal as all a guy would have to do is a quick bleed at fuel up, but it sure would be nice to eliminate any possibility that it may be plumbing related. It may well turn out to be an individual thing also, as there is quite a variety of results...
Sounds good John! I hope to installed this kit this month.
Any out of the ordinary tools I need for the installation? I have a good pair of bent-nose pliers.
I'm thinking about having you install the guages I bought from you, if and when I get up to Chicago to visit my Son and his family. Do you do that sort of thing? I could help, perhaps.
How far is it from your place to Chicago, 200 miles?
[ 04-03-2003: Message edited by: felpa41 ]</p>
Felpa,
You can figure about 4hrs from Chicago.
As for Mega kits. I have about 20 here, and should have about 80 next week so we should be in good shape. I'll be logging about 1000 miles between now and Monday so that should be a good test.
FWIW, I ran 600 miles last weekend and while I did have some air present, it was mothing monumental. It just bothers me that I don't seem to recall ever having significant air prior to switching to the same hardware as in production kits...
Well, if the prototype plumbing created no air problems in the fuel system, why change the plumbing fixtures when you convert to production?
Feel free to work out any and all problems you can prior to sending my kit. I am in no hurry if we are still making improvements.
I may be up to Chicago next month and we could take care of it then, if it takes that long to work out all the grimlins.
Just let me know what you think. I can do it either way (get it shipped down here or get it up there). If you get everything worked out, it would probably be best to get the benefits of the extra filtration, prior to starting on this long trip.
Good luck with your "1,000 mile trip". I hope you find exactly what the problem is.
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