View Full Version : How GM can see the juice
bigbobed
03-11-2003, 06:19
Been following the TLA thread and have a theory as to how GM knows you are juiced on the 03's.
I agree that to see something downstream would be very difficult and probably isn't done.
However there is something upstream. You. If I recall, when you install the juice, you go through some sequence of inputs to program the power levels. If the juice can see these events, so can the truck's computer. If I was writing the code for the 03's and knew what the sequence was, I could write a routine to look for it and set a flag in non-vol ram when it occurs. Probably would have four flags and store what power levels you are using. I'd probaly retro fit the 01/02 code with the same routines also. Wouldn't get everybody, but anybody who gets a reflash after a certain date. Why not? Doesn't cost me anything.
Just a theory that I can't prove, but it would work.
FisHn2DMax
03-11-2003, 08:46
Based on input I've received from very reliable sources, GM has the ability to detect "Juice type boxes/Chips. While everyone appears in denial on this issue, it's not only techically possible, it makes total business sense for GM to do so! The big question for GM or any MFG is
the public and legal ramifications of perceived electronic spying! I assure you they are well aware of the potential legal consequences of abusing owners/personal rights with technology.
Let's assume for argument sake that GM has already has the ability to detect boxes and more in our trucks. Not to Worry!
Does anyone know of and or has anyone on this site been denied warranty based on GM electronically detecting the use of a box? I haven't heard of it or seen even one case?
The only person reporting a warranty claim denial admitted to using the box to the GM. Even then, if case went into court, GM would need to prove the box actually did the damage.
Best policy for aftermarket boxes is to use common sense! If it needs service, out a site, out a mind".
Until GM decides the legal cost and PR ramifications of electronic monitoring/spying, I personally don't think we need to worry, at least just yet.
smile.gif
While entirely possible, I'll believe it when I see it!
FWIW The same basic ritual is used to reset the change oil light...
i took my truck to the stealer with the chip on it because i was haveing some dash gage problems,we hooked it up to the tech2 and found nothing.the chip was turned off at the time but it was on .yesterday i called and talked to one of the techs at my local dealer.he said there was no such memory devices however these chips casn cause soft memory codes in the computer like fuel pressure over boost ext.. that can be seen if the codes are not wiped put.these codes are signs of chip.however if these codes are erased by a scantool then there should be no memory of the code thus no chip suspicion.
SwampMonster
03-11-2003, 15:23
You would be suprised at what a vehicle with an airbag SRS system can report to someone with the proper equipment. From what I have seen and heard, a lot of important crash related information can be gained from the on-board computer systems, such as rate of travel (speed), when the brakes were applied, how long the ABS system was controlling the brakes, etc. I am a Juice user, but I do believe that GM is within their rights to be able to monitor any changes made to the product that they have a warranty on.
Just my opinion guys.....for what it's worth.
Lata
MadDuraMax
03-11-2003, 15:57
I was discussing this with some engineering types today. The informed speculation goes something like this (KingD is close).
When a error code event occurs any data that is monitored could be read into the ECM. What data and how much is speculative, what is not is that this data then can be mapped into sort of a finger print of operating perameters. Since each box is at least somewhat unique in how it developes additional power this data creates sort of a "DNA" pattern.
RWTD has posted the long list of data that the Predator can read, so it is not too far fetched to assume that the ECM/PCM/TCM can store a significant amount of information for any single "event".
Now understanding that OJ got off even with DNA evidence against him, it is pretty convincing data.
We all agreed the the data stored will not include *dge P@rf%rm$nce V4.xx or a similar smoking gun. There was not real agreement if a "snapshot" of data was stored at any set interval, like every 100 miles, 100 hours etc. although it would be technically feasable.
Hope this does more than just add fuel to the fire.
Mark
Brandenburg
03-11-2003, 19:03
If I was GM and I wanted to detect the use of an aftermarket box, I would put that capability downstream of where the boxes plug in, like in the Bosch distribution module instead of the ECM. Anyone know what sort of electronics is in there? :confused:
slapshot44
03-11-2003, 19:06
I did a little thinking about this, and it would actually be pretty simple for GM to discover "piggyback" type boxes. All they would have to do is add a comparator circuit to reference actual power parameters (injector pulse width, timing, etc.) with the values that are coming out of the ECM. If the values differ, it would indicate that the signals were being "modified" and a flag could be set to start logging the values. This data could also be stored in a separate memory location that could only be seen by a device that knows about the location. It would remain invisible to tech II's and other data collection devices unless they were upgraded to be made aware of the new location.
Dodge was using labels atached to the plugs where the boxes were plugged into stating if the tag was cut the warranty is VOID.
Same question again..........
would a re-flash erase the record of the "plug-in" ?
why not some shiney holographic serial numbered tape on all the connections.......... :D dave
MadDuraMax
03-12-2003, 17:26
TraceF,
While a reflash could remove data, it's just one of "those" questions. This is speculative and depends on what, if anything, is stored in memory on the chip in the ECM/TCM etc.
When you reflash the bios on your computer it does not wipe your hard drive. "If" there is a small amount of memory in two locations on the chip (or mapped as such), then this same thing could be true on our Dmax's.
To clear one thing up, to be of any use to GM the data that would need to be recorded is sensory data from the O2, MAF, TPS, etc. Command data from the ECM/TCM, being pre "Box", would not detect anything.
Dave,
That brings the ugly thought of Dmax by Microsoft to mind.... :eek: LOL
Mark
[ 03-12-2003: Message edited by: MadDuraMax ]</p>
I have a Predator. If I get a code, can I reset the code if there is failure, by OBDII, and then load the stock program in, and try to run it again to trip the same code with the factory program. I don't know, just trying to come up with some off the wall way of beating the system. 44,000 miles and running 15.47 sec fine and dandy.
I spoke with a guy who installs juice boxes and so on, he told me that if you disconnect the battery and turn on all lights and other battery draining devices that it should set the computers memory back to the original configuration. What happens when you disconnect the battery and turn on the lights is that it drains the mini battery inside the computer that keeps the info stored in the memory, not saving any other information for the add-ons. The same basic idea that is used in the computers we use to get to this site. He also claims that GM cannot tell this procedure was done. I don't know if any of this info is true or not, I don't know much about computers myself but it sounds like it might work :confused:
GMC-2002-Dmax
03-13-2003, 09:42
I for one am not worried.
If GM can track it many othersbeside me are already "TAGGED" so what is the point in worrying any more about it.
I also agree that if you modify your truck, beat it to death and kill or break it you ARE RESPONSIBLE!!!!
I drive my truck and enjoy it. If I have a problem I'll take my chances with my dealer. I am also not worried about my gauges, my tires or any of my other mods causing a warranty denial.
I think the last thing GM wants is to start getting themselves in trouble for spying on people.
Everyone remembers the words "class action lawsuit" and gas tank settlement. I know it cost GM $1,000 more off on my truck and I had 2 other vouchers as well.
Wait, if some one can track it someone will figure a way to hack it and erase it.
Life goes on!!! ;)
GMC :D
SwampMonster
03-13-2003, 11:51
MICKD.........Ever heard of 'Non Volatile Memory'? This is where information is written to memory locations that are not effected by power loss. An example of this is the smart card technology that credit card companies are using now instead of the old magnetic stripes.
Lata
SoCalDMAX
03-13-2003, 13:09
As an electronics type working with microprocessor based systems which utilize ram, rom, nvram, etc, I'm aware of the possibilities and capabilities inherent in these systems.
Having said that, I think some of you guys are getting a little carried away.
I think JK and sdaver are right. GM may be mildly concerned, but they aren't logging enough data to track half of what you guys are sweating. If they really wanted to keep you from tampering w/ stuff, they would have put tamper proof tape across key connectors. They would have used an internal wastegate passage instead of a rubber hose.
If an issue arises, I have faith that those of us who broke will be man enought to pay for it. I hope that the system will work and GM will repair defects in material and worklmanship unless they can PROVE to a mediator that a modification led directly to the failure.
Relax. Breath. Think nice thoughts. Picture a beautiful sandy beach, warm waves lapping the shore... sun bronzed beauties frolicking in the surf. Like San Felipe. Where I'll be tomorrow with my truck for the 250. My friend is riding with me. She had 4 choices: F350 4x4 with 460, Toyota Camry, Toyota Corolla or my truck. She insisted on the Chevy truck.
Enjoy your trucks and the weekend!
Regards, Steve
GMCTRUCK
03-13-2003, 15:48
I'm sure GM monitors this site and knows what's going on and what to look for regardless of whether or not they can do a scan to tell if you've had something plugged in. Probably is such a small % of Duramax owners that have plug'n'plays they aren't too worried, but if a dealer sends in a claim that sends a flag up I bet they'll send somebody who knows what to look for. Then they still have to prove it.
"GM monitors this site"
No wonder these trucks cost so damm much. :eek:
You all are all WAY off base on this, it is really very easy....
I KNOW HOW THEY DETECT THE JUICE -
VELCRO RESIDUAL ;) :D
WillowCreekStable
03-13-2003, 17:14
Velcro residual? No joke. There I was 10 o'clock at night -2 F trying to get this sticky $%*&@ off so I could get my windsheild washers fixed at the stealers in the morning....... :rolleyes:
MadDuraMax
03-13-2003, 17:16
Hey Guys,
Not trying to have all them Juice owners running for the hills to bury their boxes wrapped in tin foil. :( Just send them to me! :D :D
Seriously, I've been in the business for a while. Warrantee denial has become so dependant upon the dealer and the economy those are the #1 issues. Good dealers want to keep customers and are less likely to want to p*ss someone off. If you are a fleet customer, repeat customer etc, etc, they are less likely to p*ss you off! As the CEO of a fortune 100 company told me about warrantee work we were doing, when the customer was at fault ... "All customers are created Equal, some are just more Equal than Others".
Don't be scared, just be aware!
Mark
Not that I know first hand, but I have heard, that you can wrap the box in a old piece of rubber floor mat with a wire tie and slip it down beside the battery.
TraceF
Not to sure I would do that.....Ever touch a Juice box mid-summer?? Thet get pretty HOT inside the engine compartment..... Get to warm you just might see some ooze....
One can hide it but I wouldn't wrap it ......
MAC
GMC-2002-Dmax
03-13-2003, 18:49
Buy another lid for the fuse box under the hood.
Seems easier than going thru all that stuff.
Me, I have a 2 small pieces of velcro, no one has ever asked why and I have never offered an answer.
WHO CARES???
GMC ;)
pinehill
03-13-2003, 18:54
Also, don't forget to remove those 14 second drag strip time slips from your glovebox! :eek:
GMCTRUCK
03-13-2003, 20:11
I've got my "box" wing nutted and bolted to my fuse lid with the intention of getting another lid for dealer visits. Not that I'll ever need to go.
some of us know those smart cards are not as smart as you would think..............wish I was going to the 250.........but the crescent city will have to do.........mardi gras is over but they throw a awesome st patricks day party..........maybe tla should hire johnny cochran....he got one version of the juice off :D :D :D :D dave
[ 03-13-2003: Message edited by: sdaver ]</p>
Don't know why you guys use the velcro to install the juice boxes. I've installed several and just use tie-wraps on the fender brace. Easy to remove and no residual glue on the cover. tpitt
[ 03-13-2003: Message edited by: tpitt ]</p>
DUDES
Your giving this to much thought......
Just Velcro a ashtray in, in it's place...Just trying to help your Mechanic be efficient and the shop floor clean......
Just don't smoke in the truck, please.....
MAC :D :D :D
[ 03-14-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>
carnutsx2
03-14-2003, 10:06
Im trying to think like the general would think. If they had a SERIOUS problem with people blowing things up and they wanted to make sure you didn't mess with it the truck by adding a Juice box or the like. What would be the best way to solve it? As far as I see it they have two choices-
A- add lines of code that the dealer can pull up- good idea but that still doesn't let the owner that the general is watching.This add more lines of code to the program - more money, take time to look at and more chance of failure( think blue screen of death)For example I buy 3 Juice boxes for 300hp gain and then top the tank off with 93 octane (for a little kick) . For some odd reason I blow the damm thing up showing some kid in a Civic, with a beer can on his tail pipe what the back of my truck looks like. When the wrecker comes to take my baby to the dealer I pull the boxes out and swear on a stack of bibles that I was hauling a wheel chair to my old dying mother- and that's it! The dealer then declines my warranty, now im ****ed and I tell everyone that GM is a dirty rotten so and so. We both loose, you tell everyone you know not to buy a GM and then you have to pay to fix your rig.
B- they put a tag on the harness like Dodge does and you know without a doubt that if you destroy the tag in the search for more power it over and no more warranty. Simple little $.02 fix . done deal. The tags broken and your SOL you made the decioion to remove the tags . It makes it easy for the tech and easy for you.
One more thing if the dealer could look and see if the programing sequence for the juice (i.e. dance on the gas with the shifter in hand) shouldn't we all do it before we take the trucks in? If GM thought that the juice is selling one to every Duramax owner I bet you would see it as a GM part number by the end of the month. Miss-information is worse that no information. Just my $. 02
By the way a couple of the dealers sell the BD boxes in the parts department. Gee I wounder if they will service a truck with an add on box. smile.gif
I've never velcro'd one myself either. I actually let mine lay, but that is because i tend to swap them out somewhat frequently...
I am not sure the tape would stand up in court. They never did on the backs of computers. What if you needed to replace that part? GM cannot force you to use their services... Or what if you unplugged it by accident because you were inexperienced and meant to unplug something else?
That tape is like puttoing those "ALARM" stickers on your truck or house without actually installing one. Scares off amateurs.
:D
So what's next???? Are we gonna talk about who got caught ripping off the tag from their matress??
Tom
carnutsx2
03-16-2003, 11:15
Sled zep I agree, Im sure that a piece of tape wont stand up in court- if you were to take it that far. The trucks are $30,000, how much are you going to pay a lawyer? Most people will just get out the credit card and pay the bill. So GM wins. Its just like everything else in life, try and put the odds in your favor- get the exhaust and guages, dont go to crazy for to much more HP and it should last a good long time.
RATDOC
You didn't did ya ????? Dude your nuts !!!!!!! Civil disobedient,rebel !!!!!!
MAC :D :D :D
Mackin,
Yup, that's me....... the original L.I. rebel!!
Are ya scared yet??? ;)
Tom
Oongawah
03-16-2003, 19:34
I was just gonna velcro a flashlight there, and if anyone said anything, I'd say thanks for reminding me to have you fix the hood light while you're at it(of course it's intermittent).
dmaxalliTech
03-16-2003, 19:37
Reading along and a few thoughts come to mind. Being a GM dealer tech I find the conversation quite interesting. Say, I cut the "tape" doing a warrenty repair on your rig, now what? If I can replace the tape to put it back to factory, why couldnt I make a fortune selling it on Ebay?
Dmax engineers claim this engine is worth 600 hp, but have detuned it extensively for emissions and other regulations.
Customers come to our shop with Grand Am's that they must have thought Honda parts would fit on, body flairing, beer can tips, etc. We dont question there warr at all.
My dealer is currently building a truck in partnership with an aftermarket supplier here in town, its a 03 excab 2wd gasser, but there bolting on 15k worth of stuff, including lots of performance mods. Its still gonna be warrentied by us. Other dealers may skoff but we wont....
I think the ultimate solution to your warrenty blues is, and this may be impractical for some of you, is to bring your rig to Grand Rapids MI and see me. I dont care if your window still has the shoe polish from the strip, your axles are full of sand from the dunes or your license plate says "700hpdmax" Fact of the matter is, I as a representative of the dealer ship, have a responsibilty to make sure my "our" customers are completely satisfied, GM sends you a report card or CSI survey when you buy your truck and when its serviced under warr. The dealer is gonna make dang sure your happy, cause those survey results are a HUGE deal to the dealer.
Just my nickel of opinion for now...
What will they say when I want to fix my truck under warrenty with all those goodies from JK that I have/will order?
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