View Full Version : It was the Head Gasket!!
Alli-max
06-24-2003, 09:03
http://myweb.cableone.net/markstanco/bad%20headgasket.jpg
Alli-max
06-24-2003, 09:05
http://myweb.cableone.net/markstanco/passanger%20side.jpg
Here is a pic of the passenger side wide open!
time for the pain of adding dex cool to go away..............mine was a pinched o-ring seal at the waterpump. :D dave
Alli-max,
Did they give you any idea of the cause of failure? It could have been something as simple as incorrectly torqued head bolts. Any idea of the root cause of the failure?
Inquiring minds want to know!!!
Thanks,
MaxRock
What was ticket$ on that fix,Ouch. :confused:
Could we get a close zoom shot of the area were the problem is. Steve
Maverick
06-24-2003, 12:56
Did they verify the other side was good?
Your cylinder walls look good. You can still see the cross hatch marks on the wall. Mine was the same.
Its amazing how the old gaskets look so worn compared to a new one. http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL43/437876/1072833/12459678.jpg
This was the one of the leaking points on mine. http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL43/437876/1072833/12459509.jpg
Did they do the final torque with this fancy tool? It reads degrees instead of ft lbs. http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL43/437876/1072833/12459389.jpg
You'll be on the road soon. Are you putting the green stuff in and staying away from Dex-Cool?
[ 06-24-2003, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Maverick ]
It looks like you guys had leak points in totally different cylinders with Alli's in the middle and Maverick's on the end.
Looking for trends... none so far.
The cylinders not wearing is nice to see.
Thanks for the great pics.
sonofagun
06-24-2003, 14:37
Allimax,
Needle ---- Haystack
Thanks goodness you found it, though the cost wasn't pretty.
Bob
Hopefully GM will assist as it was a Miss Diagnose while under the 100k ... I think he (Ali) said they were ...
Mac ;)
Please don't take this the wrong way - just an observation on my part. If my memory is correct, in the two instances of head gasket failure mentioned in this thread, both owners were running power adders for some time WITHOUT GAUGES... :eek: One towing heavily on a regular basis, and the other 'driving it like I stole it' ;) tongue.gif
Food for thought.
Maverick
06-24-2003, 18:59
I did a test of the Juice in BC at the 02 Rend. and once more down the drag strip here in Alaska. Those were the only times I ran without gauges. I got my gauges in and then put it on permanently. Towing like I do without gauges with a box is suicide. I would pull 3 mile 5-7% grades at 1350 degrees. I would have to back out of the throttle to maintain this temp. If I floored it it would go higher.
mdrag,
Glad you said it and not me. I'm in enough trouble already.
He's right though... it would not be fair to plaster pics of Dmax parts all over the place without mentioning this did not happen to a stock truck.
Thank you everybody for being up front and honest.
Maverick,
What do you think about a decent home mechanic taking this on. Are there any special tools that you know of that are a must? It doesn't look all that bad of a job.
[ 06-24-2003, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: hoot ]
Maverick
06-24-2003, 19:29
GM book time is 17-18 hours I thought my GM mechanic said. I can't remenber if that was for 1 or 2 gaskets though. Mine was his first and he had 21 hours in it. You also have to make sure you get the code off the front of the head to ensure you get the right gasket. No hole, 1 hole or 2 hole. There are 3 different head gaskets for a Duramax Diesel. The tool for torquing the NEW head bolts looks expensive. Don't know if a dealer would let you borrow one.
IMO....I would NOT attempt it and I consider myself pretty good around a set of wrenches.
I disagree that they both were running power adders for a while .... Alimax had a ton of miles before he added anything .... He was holding out .... Mav had right when they came out ....
How many miles Mav ??
Alimax ??
Jumping to conclusions ..... What is the similarities?? Mav blew both sides does because he towed with his vehicle ?? Good analogy .....Propane doesn't raise cylinder pressure, timing ??
Come on, no head gaskets without power adders ???
Lets be fare ......
Mac :rolleyes:
Maverick
06-24-2003, 20:32
Mac,
I ran the Juice from approx 75,000 to 110,000. Gasket failure was around the 90K mark give or take a few. Can't remember. Truck has 122,000 now. I guy in OK bought my Juice off the classifieds here.
Personally I don't believe the Juice had anything to do with it. Like I said on another thread, I know of a couple others that had failures that were running stock. Seems most of these were on early 01' Duramaxes. I just think it (hope) is was bad timing. No pun intended.
Maverick,
My mistake - thanks for clarification.
mdrag
I guy in OK bought my Juice off the classifieds here.
Mdrag ?? tongue.gif
Hey all I'm saying is don't point fingers with out bonified proof .....If it's a box it's a box two three four out of thousands ??? Come'on ....
Heat and cylinder pressure ,what does the boxes do ?? what's the numbers??These guys were running 90's too,so don't count above that .....Am I Right Mav ....??
Mac :confused:
dmaxalliTech
06-24-2003, 20:40
Hoot, you like to tinker that much, you wanna rip down a dmax? LOL. Not a terrible job but torque steps is critical, you can get a cheap angle meter from parts store and do it fine, thats what I use, digital one in pics is a pain in the butt. Lookin in pics, looks like exhaust and intake manifolds were removed, lots of extra work for nothing, first time off though, he will not do it that way again prolly. the only head failures that I know off are due to something else going bad, not head it self. Leaking combustion gasses, coolant pitting etc. No failures all by itself. PS, I would like to see him get that angle meter to the bolts near the firewall on drivers side ;)
Maverick
06-24-2003, 20:45
I believe one owner was in the 60's.....the rest were getting close to 100K. Out of the 9 that I know of 4 I have no clue what mileage they had.
Where's Alli-max. Taking a long nap?
dmaxalliTech
Yo bro
You "Mo'beal" warranty ?? I got this friend ya see needs an injector or two .....Scared to fly ??? Have tools will travel ???
Hotel ,meals,bars ...... Some bennys.....What'cha doing thie weekend .....?? Bring parts,extras .....
Mac ;)
Originally posted by Maverick:
I believe one owner was in the 60's.....the rest were getting close to 100K. Out of the 9 that I know of 4 I have no clue what mileage they had.
Where's Alli-max. Taking a long nap? You know I meant running 90 HP on Combustion level/heat increases,nothing above as the last year has brought to the table .....
Mac
;)
I would tend to think anything that adds power, adds cylinder pressure. Pure physics.
I also don't think cylinder pressure is the culprit, as long as it's not ridiculous.
Could have been improper factory torquing. They were having some startup assy issues early on. Hard to say.
You would need data on what trucks were failing and when they were built.
Maverick, are you counting everything including on-line occurances or just ones in your area? Where are the nine? (I'm not questioning your number, just don't want your numbers duplicated). So far we have only heard on here of what three?
Maverick
06-25-2003, 03:49
Hoot,
The 9 were nation wide. One was in Florida, 3 were up here, 2 more were unknowns to me but emailed me questions because they had the same problems, and 3 on this board. I think I have that right. Alli-max would be 4 on this board. Remember the guy that had his engine replaced because the cylinder block cracked because the head gasket let coolant into the cylinder and hydro locked and cracked? I'm sure there are a quite a few more that nobody knows about (non-members).
Originally posted by Maverick:
... You also have to make sure you get the code off the front of the head to ensure you get the right gasket. No hole, 1 hole or 2 hole. There are 3 different head gaskets for a Duramax Diesel ... Does this imply there are three different head versions? If so why the changes? Are the early ones seeing the head gasket problems? Just curious?
smile.gif
The different gaskets are only thickness differences. The heads or block, not sure which, are not all the same. They use three different thicknesses depending on the block/head geometry at the time of assy.
The holes in the gaskets are just a way to identify them.
Since Broker seems to be on the up&up, his trucks have had an aweful lot of miles without engine problems. I don't think it's a design issue. I think it's an individual assy or gasket issue.
dmaxalliTech,
You have been a great resource for us and have given us a lot of real hands on experience with these engines. What is your take on these gasket failures. Have you seen/heard of many?
[ 06-25-2003, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: hoot ]
I took my truck to the dealership yesterday with head gasket problems. The truck has 65,000 miles. The tech advised me he recently replaced a cracked head on a Duramax and it was such a pain in the butt he is going to pull the engine on my truck todo the job. Should I have him change the dex-cool out to the green stuff since he is pulling the engine?
dmaxalliTech
06-25-2003, 11:44
Mackin:
Yo bro
You "Mo'beal" warranty ?? I got this friend ya see needs an injector or two .....Scared to fly ??? Have tools will travel ???
Hotel ,meals,bars ...... Some bennys.....What'cha doing thie weekend .....?? Bring parts,extras .....
No fly zone brother, CT not that far away, send him up. He can stay in my fiver for the night.
Jermck:
The tech advised me he recently replaced a cracked head on a Duramax and it was such a pain in the butt he is going to pull the engine on my truck todo the job. Should I have him change the dex-cool out to the green stuff since he is pulling the engine?
He has obviously never pulled a dmax out of a truck... Pulling head is cake walk in comparison. I have had heads off in just a few hours. Switching to green is not a bad idea, check with dealer with regards to cooling system warr though since you have time left
Hoot:
The different gaskets are only thickness differences. The heads or block, not sure which, are not all the same. They use three different thicknesses depending on the block/head geometry at the time of assy.
the gaskets need to be measured for depending on rotating parts. piston clearence. if just replacement of head gasket(s), you can use the same size gaskets, any time a rotating part is changed, you must remeasure and adjust gasket size.
Hoot, I have never personally seen one fail, have heard of a few of them, mostly here and talking to other techs at other dealers. They are no more common on these then anything else out there, most likely less common considering the mileage these pack on. There are some engines out there that when you see the RO with a coolant leak, you know its a head gasket, likly anyways,
2.2 in Cavs and Sunfires, VERY common, older quad 4 engines, VERY common. starting to see more in the 3.4 and 3.1 engines also. I think the overall design of the engine is very durable. I dont feel cylinder pressure is responsible either, remember, these have 17.5:1 compression compared to 8-9:1 of regular gasser. They are made to handle it. IF pressure was cause, they would likely blow right out, most of the leaks that I am aware of are a cracked gasket, at least it starts that way, might look worse, but usually starts as just a crack....
Maverick
06-25-2003, 16:51
The different gaskets is due to the machined block deck height. They vary engine to engine. Installing the wrong gasket could result in the valves hitting the top of the piston causing further damage or lower compression resulting in less than stock performance. Attached is a pic of the casting mark on the front of the head. You can't see it till alot of the stuff is removed from the engine. It is between 1/4 and 1/2 inch long and shaped like a Tylenol capsule. No circles inside is called a "no hole", one circle is called a "one hole" and so on. All gaskets are shaped the same with the same holes, they are just different thicknesses. The GM computer will tell you what thickness a no hole is an so on. http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL43/437876/1072833/28131032.jpg
S--T! Does this mean I'm going to start losing coolant in 8000 miles?
Alli-max
06-30-2003, 22:35
zzzzzzzzzz... Hey wake up!! :D
Sorry guys, computer free for a few days now.
Yes, for ONe I am not using DexCool. As far as Juice related, I SELDOM get on the truck. I tow even less. When I do tow, my boat/trailer weighs ~6500-7000#'s. This is when I setup with a I and II (tow/haul) mode. Other wise, I am in I and III 99% of the time. I never tow up grades with the cruise on. Anyhow, the problem exhisted before the boat was bought.
2Dmax... looks like it would have run ~$2100 or so without GM assistance. Then again, final bill isnt ready yet.
Gbenzx01
07-02-2003, 21:02
The Inside,
And what may I seek is GreenStuff????????
Is it avail on the street or do ya have to buy it out the back door?
More people that see the inside of engines of all kinds do not speak very well of this pink Texacola stuff.
Is it only at the stealer dealers & would hope its not stored near the $135 fuel filters!
Thnx, Gben
dmaxalliTech
07-02-2003, 21:11
Gben::
And what may I seek is GreenStuff???????? Good ol fashion ethylene glychol.
charliepeterson
07-02-2003, 21:32
dmaxallitech: Have you heard of a class action law suit against GM for the Dexcool eating heads,waterpumps and radiators. I heard the suit right now is concentrating on anything with the 4.3L in it and it started out on the West Coast. I'll post if I hear anything concerning us.
Here's the link;
http://www.10tv.com/consumer10/consumerhome.php
[ 07-02-2003, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: charliepeterson ]
Gbenzx01
07-03-2003, 13:24
DmaxAlliTech,
Thanx & what a relief. With 28k mi may mention to service mgr just to see what kind of face he makes(pretty good joe).
Alli-Max& Maverick,
Pretty sure I guess original gasket defect has been ruled out? Any lab results?
Thanx Gben
Lone Eagle
07-03-2003, 15:53
Three different gaskets tells me there was a little QA problem when machining the heads or block. Different thicknesses I would guess. If that is what they are for the mechanics should check both sides to make sure they are the same. Cleanliness and proper torque have always been very important on the engines I have built. This used to be a big problem years ago. That is why blue printing gains were so big.
Alli-Max, Why don't you use cruise when pulling hills? Later! Lone Eagle ;)
Picked my truck up today from the dealership. Tech pulled #8 cyl. injector tube, cleaned, resealed and reinstalled. Appears to have fixed the problem.
Gbenzx01
07-08-2003, 22:44
FWIW,
If the coolant was the culprit it should damage the gasket in four locations(4cyls) considering the long term exposier. Of course the closeup photo I'm referring to. First shot fired will be, well it has to start somewhere. Yes it did & most likely it started the first time this engine was ever fired. The exhaust gases(not that far removed from the shuttle Columbia problem) began the dirty work of boiling the coolant as it came by & turning it into something it was not meant tobe.
If the head bolts above this damaged site were not secured properly it would stand to reason that the gasket was not capable of securing this area from the gases. The only other if's that come into this consideration are; the original integrity of the gasket & the head itself.
Most certainly a Texaco lab somewhere(Houston maybe) can already show us this test in motion.
Just 2 sense,
Thanx, Gben
[ 07-08-2003, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Gbenzx01 ]
Alli-max
07-08-2003, 23:08
Lone Eagle....
I do that on the steep grades to keep it in 5th as long as possible, and I dont want to over rev if I am going 70 or so. Thats it.
On slight grades, I do keep the cruise on.
As for the HG analysis... It is currently being looked at by top professionals at Waste Management, Inc. in texarkana, Texas. (I saw it in the trash).
As for the HG analysis... It is currently being looked at by top professionals at Waste Management, Inc. in texarkana, Texas. (I saw it in the trash).
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif
Mac
[ 07-09-2003, 04:41 AM: Message edited by: mackin ]
Gbenzx01
07-09-2003, 20:21
Come on Alli,
Among the Gutters, Leafblowers & now the officials at waste mismanagement we have lost a prize indeed. But still no less thanx for the photo!
Mac,
Is it the odor from the back tires? And we thought cigarettes were bad...
Thanx Kids, Gben
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