View Full Version : Sand on top of injectors!?
RocketsDmax
09-29-2003, 19:24
So with all this talk about filtration, 20-30 micron stock, 2,4,6,8 micron aftermarket, Where are the piles of sand type substance comming from on top of the fuel injectors when the tubes and covers are removed? Most of the time the injectors that are faulty dont have any bulid-up what so ever and the rest look like little sand boxes! These particals look to be bigger than 20-30 mic, and the stock filters cant be that bad!? This is more of a tech based question, and I am just woundering what you guys think? Have seen quite alot of this and mostly on 01 and 02 models. Thanks again for your time and information. Later. :confused:
Originally posted by RocketsDmax:
So with all this talk about filtration, 20-30 micron stock, 2,4,6,8 micron aftermarket, Where are the piles of sand type substance comming from on top of the fuel injectors when the tubes and covers are removed? Most of the time the injectors that are faulty dont have any bulid-up what so ever and the rest look like little sand boxes! These particals look to be bigger than 20-30 mic, and the stock filters cant be that bad!? This is more of a tech based question, and I am just woundering what you guys think? Have seen quite alot of this and mostly on 01 and 02 models. Thanks again for your time and information. Later. :confused: This comes from between the line and the line nut. GM has a "special" procedure to vac this stuff out. I would have thought that some form of umbrella seal would have been nice. I've heard stories of attempted warranty denial based on finding this mess when opening one up. Hope you aren't letting it drop in, but it sure sounds like it... :eek:
dmaxalliTech
09-30-2003, 05:20
most of the contaminants that are on top of the injectors are from removing the lines. there is a small amount of build up in the fitting and when you loosen it, it falls down, right ontop of injector, it is not there normally, just looks like it is because you put it there when taking apart. If there was indeed that kind of garbage in the injectors, you better get your wallet out, everything from the injector back to the tank should be replaced at that point.
Kent Tuttle
09-30-2003, 17:43
The injectors I saw had that kind of "garbage" in the entry point at the top from what I recall. RocketsDamx could elaborate more on this. It did not look like the kind of stuff you wanted in the fuel system :eek:
RocketsDmax
09-30-2003, 18:36
The stuff I have seen is directly on top of the injector, and is in no small quantity! I have seen the rust you speak of around some of the lower injector line threads and the particals from this are not what is sitting on top of the injectors, as not all injectors have this rusted thread condition, and they have a pile of this crap on top! I am just noteing what I have run into on all 01's and 02's that I have worked on and some are way worse that others. Our shop is a small one and we dont see the volume that most shops see, So this is why I am asking what you guys have run into, Cause we cant always believe the party-line from big brother we should be able to rely on fellow mechanics in the field as a better source of what is happening in the real world, Not just in testing and in theory! Thanks again for your time, Later.
RocketsDmax
09-30-2003, 18:53
Sorry I missed this one, John, We are removing the dirt at the external injector boot, and doing our best to remove the other goop from on top of the injectors, If it were my call all these injectors would get replaced, But at over $500 a pop and no flow rate, or balance rate problems the only way we got a full set of injectors for a customer was to show this crap to our zone rep who happened to be at the shop for the day, All he could say is that the fuel caused it, and I called BS on that! Well we will see what happens when the fuel injectors and the fuel filters come off of national back-order :eek: , hope for the best boys....!Thanks.Later.
Originally posted by RocketsDmax:
... Well we will see what happens when the fuel injectors and the fuel filters come off of national back-order ... Rocket,
Interesting that injectors and fuel filters are in short supply form GM. This is just speculation but are injectors being redesigned (?) or is it just that demand for replacements is outpacing supply? Also, is it possible that GM found some rusted filters in their inventory (??). Anyone have any info on this?
smile.gif
Rocket,
Just being a few miles down the road from you in Yorba Linda, just curious which dealership you work for? (if you don't mind me asking). (DmaxalliTech in Michigan is a little to far to drive for service. smile.gif )
Alan
I have a little idea, like it or not, good or bad:
Dielectric grease in the cavity. This should not melt, and will keep the crap out of there. It can make a gooey mess, BUT it will keep all of the dirt caught up. If there is a leak, it will push right through..
I've heard that MOST are starting with new lines/nuts as well to prevent contamination.
Now for an umbrella seal. :confused:
Guess a guy could try to stretch a large oring over the line nut and roll it down. You'd want a silicon type for sure...
Kent Tuttle
10-01-2003, 05:36
just curious which dealership you work for?
RocketsDmax is at MK Smith in Chino and worth the drive!
[ 10-02-2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Kent Tuttle ]
I'd be curious to know how the zone rep would respond when asked where the evidence of contaminated fuel was in the pump, OE fuel filter, and tank?
The filter SHOULD be (we all know it really isn't) adequate defense against a sudden onslaught of debris, and even if inadequate, should have evidence of a large qty of debris. If this debris in the injectors came with the fuel, it must have bypassed the tank, OE filter, and injection pump :rolleyes: These guys (reps) really take the cake some times... :mad:
Looking at the design, and hearing of the problems, I dread the day I swap my injectors out. I guess on the plus side, I'll be doing all 8!
Little food for thought: Fuel shops are already a very clean environment. Much cleaner than a service bay. When setting up for Common Rail stuff they are being asked/required to build a "clean room" with filtered air! :eek:
dmaxalliTech
10-01-2003, 18:39
Originally posted by kennedy:
Looking at the design, and hearing of the problems, I dread the day I swap my injectors out. I guess on the plus side, I'll be doing all 8!
John, let me know when your ready, I might be up for a weekend trip :D Set aside 6 hours and then we can drink beer
Soon as the new shop and dyno is ready. That way I can verify the changes w/o even taking it off of the rollers...
Kent,
Thanks for the info. If I was to ever have one of the injectors replaced, I would want to make sure the individual replacing the part has done it more than once in the past. As with any task, you can only be taught so much in a classroom and after that, OJT takes over.
Alan
dmaxalliTech
10-02-2003, 13:36
Was just counting that up as a matter of fact OC. Figure I have done between 80 and 90 total so far.. looking like 16 more in the near future :eek:
RocketsDmax
10-02-2003, 19:06
....and there you have it folks, The difference between a small shop and a big one! Dmaxalitech, Wow :eek: 80 or 90 of those things, No wonder there is a shortage (lol). We have only done about 20-30 max, and 4 or 5 pumps (one exploded completely on a stock 03) I guess all we can do is the best we can with what they give us. I have talked to a few people here in SoCal about the extra filter deal and they are of the opinion that the extra filter should be mounted as close to the fuel tank as posible. What do you guys think? Talk to ya later.
Originally posted by RocketsDmax:
I have talked to a few people here in SoCal about the extra filter deal and they are of the opinion that the extra filter should be mounted as close to the fuel tank as posible. What do you guys think? Talk to ya later. How many of them were running for governor? :D
Couldn't resist that one.
Seriously, IMHO the finer filter belongs POST OE, and as close to the engine as possible. ESPECIALLY when we see OE units rusting, and falling apart. Let's hope this was just a passing trend.
The further from the engine, you are exposing a greater amount of fuel to the lower pressure for a greater duration, increasing the potential for free air traveling in the fuel. Of course, in a pressurized lift system, this vaporizing is not a factor.
Kent Tuttle
10-03-2003, 05:29
Of course, in a pressurized lift system, this vaporizing is not a factor.
John...are you planning on a pressurized lift system option with your Mega filter set-up?
Rocket,
With regard to the location of the supplemental fuel filter, there probably is not one answer that fits all. I will put a slightly different spin on the situation than what John Kennedy mentions above. From a filtration point of view, the supplemental filters should be mounted Post-OEM. I don
Kent,
I looked at your profile on the Diesel Page. Noticed you work in aerospace. I looked in my companies directory. Are you the same Kent Tuttle that is located in Building E1? If you are, you will know what I mean. If you're in E1 (South Campus), we work in the same building!
Alan
Kent Tuttle
10-03-2003, 10:36
That would be me :D You should stop by sometime!
The entrance to our project area is E1/A0141. If I remember correctly, you were on the B aisle, so were pretty close.
I'll check my calendar on Monday to see what's up in the upcoming week. Maybe we can do a lunch during the week sometime. It's a small world.
Alan
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