Fuel Additives Demulsifiers vs Emulsifiers

[dmaxmule]

While waiting for my truck arrive, I would like to be prepared for when it gets here. I have read a lot on this site about the differences; however, I am still confused on which one to use.

It is my understanding that GM says NO ALCOHOL or EMULSIFIERS, and most people on this site use emulsifiers. Why is this, or am I looking at this wrong.

It would seem that intentionally sending water thru the filter would be a bad idea. This would make a demulsifiers the better choice.

Which one do I need to use?????

I would like to hear from JK, George M, and anyone else with knowledge and/or experience. Recomendations of additives and places to buy them will be greatly appreciated.

THANKS dmaxmule

[DonG]

dmaxmule,

This topic has been "reviewed" by lots of people with many different opinions. You should do a search on "fuel additives" to get lots of reading material.

My question to you: If you use a fuel demulsifier, where does the water go when it drops out???

Happy reading. Don

[More Power]

Most diesel fuel injection experts agree that any amount of water sent through the pump/injectors is a bad thing.

GM's recommendation is (if you're planning to use a fuel treatment for water) that you use a treatment that causes the free water to settle out in the fuel filter assembly, where a sensor is located that will alert the driver when to drain the filter.

The last time I heard, Racor and Stanadyne were two fuel treatment manufacturers mentioned by GM as being acceptable, and that won't jeopardize the engine/fuel system warranty.

I should add that in 18 years of diesel pickup experience, I have never found any water in any fuel filter. Those who live in wetter climates than Montana - like the NW coastal areas or the East Coast might need to be more aware.

MP

[mark45678]

the water drops out in the fuel filter/water seporatore! thats why there is a drain on the bottom of the filter and a light to indicate you have water in the filter!

[Kennedy]

Originally posted by Don G:
dmaxmule,

My question to you: If you use a fuel demulsifier, where does the water go when it drops out???

Happy reading. Don Some drops out in the filter, some drops out in the pump, some drops out in the injectors. It has been observed by many that the water that drops out creates RUST...

I've about typed my self out of comment on this subject. I've just been passing alnong what I use: FPPF Total Power (emulsifier) and yes I've see water in my seperator AND in my Mega filter from a bad batch of fuel...

[dmaxmule]

John k.
What happens to the water that is sent thru the system when you use an emulsifier. Does this not cause the same rust problems as you mentioned with the demulsifier?

Diesels are fairly new to me especially one this high-tech. I just want to do what is best for the engine; therefore, I am trying to research every possible part of this truck and engine. The DP has taught me alot.

thanks dmaxmule

[Kennedy]

Demulsified water is in droplet form. Emulsified water is broken down and encapsulated so it can pass w/o incident.

Suffice to say, the water is going through one way or another. I want to make sure it is tied up in emulsion when it does...

[george morrison]

And to further John's comments. When we chemically tie up water molecules, surround it by a lubricating boundary, we essentially eliminate water from our system. i.e. we no longer have 'water' going through out system. 90% of all warranty disallows are due to visible signs of corrosion in the system from water drop-out or separation. A dealer close by currently has seven Duramax/6.5TD's sitting out back that were taken in by owners due to rough running, etc. All six owners were given estimates of between $3,000 and $7,000 for system repair. Yet all units were within the 100,000 mile warranty period. All six units showed visible signs of corrosion in the systems thus warranty disallow. In two cases the owners religiously used a recommended demulsifying fuel additive.
Very simply, if one uses a demulsifying additive free water can settle anywhere in the system when the vehicle is allowed to sit for any period. Thus, on start-up, free water can/will cause immediate damage to pumps, injectors, etc. If one uses an emulsifying additive, free water is minimized/eliminated, so if nothing else, warranty disallows will be also aliminated! Moreover, system problems are minimized as water, per se, is eliminated. Unless, of course, we are unfortunate enough to get a 'slug' of water, then the normal amount of emulsification capability will be overwhelmed and hopefully our water separator works as advertised to prevent catastrophic failure.
George Morrison

[rjschoolcraft]

Hmmm...

Anecdotal evidence is of no value to an informed decision. I use the Stanadyne Performance Formula, a demulsifier, because I want the water to get trapped by the filter. I've never had a water problem yet in over four years and 150,000 miles of operating this engine. Further, Standadyne built the injection system, so I use the additive that they designed. Also, even if the water is encapsulated as described above, it still takes up volume and reduces the amount of fuel delivered to the engine momentarily and shouldn't be allowed to pass through the filter.

I'm sure the argument can go on forever. The worst thing that either side can do is impugn the other or say that one is ignorant. Look at all of the facts and make a wise decision.

[Roy-C]

George and John, do you have any ideas as to why GM says to use an demulsifier (if you are going to use an additive at all)

[Kennedy]

I think it has to do with the fact that Racor and Stanadyne are in the serarator business.

Problem is, our WIF light does not work, and rusty filter evidence is out there as a result.

The OE Racor filter doesn't even allow for effective drainage of all water accumulated... :rolleyes:

[dmaxmule]

Kennedy, like I said I am trying to understand all of this and it is alot to learn. What all do run in your truck? TPPF(i think is right) do you use cetane or anything else? Also, where can I get a good price on this stuff?

dmaxmule

[dmaxmule]

Kennedy, I just visited your site and saw what you used in your truck. I take it that you never had any problems except a little water in the seperator.

What would a case and shipping be to East Tennessee zip code 37813

[Kennedy]

Please drop me an email direct. If you don't get a response, please call. I just changed mail systems and am not quite used to the new setup...

[D-max Man]

The 62/65 Standadyne systems could tolerate water better than the D-Max/Bosh system.

The tolerances in the Bosh system are very tight and even a small amount of rust can cause major problems with the fuel system components. This is why I suggest not using an emulsifyer. I have seen the inside of these components after water has gone through the system and it isn

[Kennedy]

I believe this is a good reason TO use an emulsifying additive. We can put water 1:1 with FPPF Fuel Power, add to diesel, and it will remain clean and clear indefinitely. Untreated will turn to crap very quickly.


I'm not a chemist, but as I understand it, chemically emulsified water is broken down so small and encapsulated by a non corrosive element rendering it basically harmless.

If we had 100% efficient water separators, I'd likely change my stand.

BTW, no additive can protect from large amounts of water. I've seen water droplets in my secondary filter even with treated fuel. This does not occur with my local fuel as it is much cleaner. Seeing water past the OE separator is pretty hard evidence that water goes where it will when allowed to run around free.

My way is to treat all fuel to maintain a "dry" tank rather than let it accumulate...

[george morrison]

From the many real world Duramax fuel tests I have reviewed in every case what water that has gone into the Stanadyne water separator has come out the other side unchanged. i.e. the water separator does nothing to separate normal entrained water. Fuel with 60 ppm water going in has 60 ppm of water going out. It is that simple. Thus, since the water separator does little or nothing on normal water levels, it would follow that we should make certain that that water does NOT settle out as free water anywhere in the sytem. Enter emusification...
If we lock up the entrained water, making certain that it does not pool, surround it with a lubricating boundary layer, limit it to one molecule of H2O, then it can safely pass through out high pressure system. If we use an additive which promotes free water separation and agglomeration, we are then creating a free water pool anywhere in our fuel system if the sytem is allowed to sit for any period of time. (like a week in a parking lot while on vacation!)
Free water will then provide a wonderful home for microbial growth. Microbes produce acid by products. Microbes clog fuel filters.
Free water can cause instantaneous pump damage.
Free water can cause corrosion. Visible corrosion is the #1 cause of fuel system warranty disallow. Hmmm. well, if corrosion is the #1 cause of fuel system warranty disallow, well then I guess it DOES make sense to recommend a demulsifying addtive does it not!?? From a manufacturer's standpoint..
So, if we use an emulsifying fuel additive which constantly ties up free water to the molecular level, eliminating microbial growth, eliminating corrosion, eliminating pump damage, hmmmm....
Now, what was the reasoning for the demulsifyhing addtiive again????
George

[GT]

Thanks George, your post said it all and as far as I'm concerned puts what type of addtive to use to rest.Also that we better be using it all the time.

[Roy-C]

GT, I wish I could be as sure as you. Both sides to this question seem to me to have possibly valid points. If the water can be encapsulated, as George says, to make it impossible to turn into steam, then that is great but in another thread on this subject someone else says that this isn't possible in a real world engine such as ours. George and Kennedy, what do you guys think of the shell Rotella additive which, if I am understnding correctly, claims to be the best of both demulsifing and emulsifiny worlds.

[Kennedy]

I think I can speak for George as well, that we have arrived at what we suggest from personal, and field experience. Every day there is a whiz bang new oil coming out, or some new (or cheaper)additive. Chock it up as dff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, but we know what works for us...


PS.I'm not trying to sound like I/We are closed minded and not open to new experiences, just confident in our decision(s)

[ 03-25-2004, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: kennedy ]

[roegs]

Originally posted by george morrison:
Visible corrosion is the #1 cause of fuel system warranty disallow. Hmmm. well, if corrosion is the #1 cause of fuel system warranty disallow, well then I guess it DOES make sense to recommend a demulsifying addtive does it not!?? From a manufacturer's standpoint..
George George..I've followed your words of wisdom for a long time, but I was very suprised at your statement above. I'm no legal expert, but I really can't imagine GM putting out a service bulletin recommending that we use an additive that would intentionally cause problems in our fuel systems so that GM would not need to pay.

Based on what I've read from both you and JK, the additional pre-OEM filter that I'm planning to add to my truck should not need to incorporate an additional water separator or heater if I use an emulsifying product. Would you agree? Thanks!

[Kennedy]

Whenever possible, a drain is a big plus. A large slug of water is pretty much impossible to correct.

I'm still finding SCARY looking crap in my system from my last batch of bad fuel... :mad:

BTW, what I'm finding is "a visible sign of corrosion" or rusty, muddy looking paste collected in a stagnant point on a lift pump fitting... :eek:

[More Power]

How many people here have experienced a warranty denial due to water contamination - or have knowledge of someone else losing their warranty? I'd like to get a few VIN numbers to track the process, then ask the right people a few questions.

In the many Duramax related emails I've received over the past 3-1/2 years, I do not remember any of them discussing warranty denial due to water contamination. I do have a few that state their fuel injection system was covered under warranty due to damage caused by water.

Warranty disputes usually wind up in arbitration if the vehicle owner sticks with it long enough. The people who decide arbitration cases are regular folks, who listen to reason and make logical decisions. If you can show that you used only untreated #2 diesel fuel or used an approved fuel treatment, and your water in fuel light did not illuminate, an arbitration board will likely find in favor of the vehicle owner. After all, the GM diesel fuel system was designed (and is advertised) to deal with water.

MP

[Kennedy]

There was one here in this forum a while back. I've heard a lot of "fuel contamination" warranty denials or at least attempts.

The one in question here used his insurance to cover the repair bills.

[tpitt]

Had one of my potential suppliers send me some additive samples from Racor. Haven't tried any yet, but went on their website and found it is a demulsifier. Also have a new VW TDI and stanadyne is the recommended additive. We all know it is a demulsifier also. Its very confusing when major manufactures recommend demulsifiers. I'm seriously thinking about installing a Fuel Preporater on my new LLY, when they get them down to a reasonable size. tpitt

[george morrison]

As I have shared numerous times on this site, a dealer close to me currently has 5 Duramax/6.5TD's sitting out back waiting for owner's to either provide permission to proceed with warranty disallowed fuel system repairs or remove the vehicles due to visible corrosion/water in the fuel systems.
However, for a real live name of a person who has had a warranty denial on a GM fuel system that was well within the full warranty coverage, due to corrosion/water contamination:

George Morrison, Columbus, Ohio 6.5TD with 45,000 miles on it. Truck taken to local "Chevrolet diesel expert, supposed best in Columbus, Ohio area" due to rough running, hard starting. Dealer called with "between $$4,000 and $7,000 estimate for repair" for replacement of complete fuel system due to water damage to the fuel system not covered under warranty.
Yes, me, George Morrison, Mr. Diesel Fuel emulsifier additive person, a vehicle that had used NO diesel fuel additive due to the 6.5TD's owner's manual insistence that NO fuel additive be used of any kind due to warranty disallow. So, no fuel additive was used in this vehicle in order to comply with warranty conditions.
SOOOO, as a result of my compliance, warranty dissallow.... The system, fuel filter, etc. had clear signs of corrosion thus water, thus warranty dis-allow. And no, I did not go to arbitration as the dealer said that anyone who tried before ended up losing due to the clear wording of the warranty stipulations. It was not GM's fault that I used fuel contaminated with water.

SOOOO, as a result of this experience, from that day forward all of my GM diesels used a water emulsifying fuel additive (Primrose 405/409, obviously) in every drop of diesel fuel they used. AND since that time, no warranty disallows, no huge repair bills on diesel fuel systems, etc.. And I began actively promoting the use of emulsifying fuel additives for GM diesels, presented Primrose 405 and 409 on www.avlube.com (http://www.avlube.com) web site, all with the intent of preventing my warranty disallow occurrance from happening for other 6.5TD and Duramax owners...

So, you now have a real live name and "the rest of the story" regarding my quest for folks to USE emulsifying addtives in their GM (or any other brand) diesel engine.

George Morrison

[ 03-27-2004, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: george morrison ]

[george morrison]

Regarding "After all, the GM diesel fuel system was designed (and is advertised) to deal with water." And as has been presented in numerous "before and after fuel filter/water separator" fuel analysis results, the water level that goes into either a 6.5TD or Duramax comes out the other side. i.e. 65 ppm water in, 65 ppm water out. This has been discussed many, many times on this site... The water separator does nothing to pull entrained water from diesel fuel. The recommended GM fuel additive does nothing to increase the water separating capability of the separator any more than promoting damaging clear water separation anywhere in the system where diesel fuel is allowed to remain stationary for any period of time.
All diesel fuel has some level of entrained water in it. If we do not chemically deal with the entrained water by using a good quality fuel additive, one stands a very good possibility of the "George Morrison 6.5TD experience".. The "NON-Additized fuel" photos of a Duramax filter with severe rust followed by a Primrose 405 additized fuel filter with complete absence of corrosion is certainly some good practical evidence. Same truck, same diesel fuel source, one rusted filter, one totally clean un-rusted filter...
George Morrison

[tpitt]

George,
I really appreciate your help and posting on these forums. I was just stating a fact of the confusion we get as owners from the manufactures.
I do know on the older trucks (class 8) I have driven we used to have cannister type filters mounted on the frame. It was quite common to drain a lot of water out of them, and when changing filters finding a lot of rust in the metal housing. They seemed to separate the water fairly well. Of course the fuel systems weren't any where near what we have today. Sometimes I feel we went backwards with spin on filters. Just a thought. tpitt

[Kent Tuttle]

Great info George and John. George's story on warranty denial is enough for me to continue using an "emulsifier" in my truck. So far on the filters I have cut open no rust.

[More Power]

George, the "After All" comment was tongue in cheek. :D Don't take it personally....

As mentioned earlier, a fuel injection system warranty denial due to water contamination would not likely withstand the scrutiny of an warranty dispute arbitration if the owner operated his vehicle according to the owner's manual. And, that is my own personal position. I stand with the owners on this issue.

We all know that BB forum participants are quick to post problems they might be having with their truck, and with few exceptions, there are damn few mentions of warranty denials due to water contamination (JK said there was one)I have many emails from GM diesel owners on file stating just the opposite.

So George, get me the VIN number of just one of the Duramax trucks at the dealership you mentioned. I'll need the VIN and dealer's name.

Let's figure this out.

MP

[saywhat]

I operate a Caterpillar excavator 345 with a 3176 engine which has a pre-filter water seperator with a drain and clear bowl at bottom of filter.Machine was new with 9 hours on hours meter when I started operating it.Todate it has 6700 hours showing on hour meter.Filters on this machine have been a primary concern since day one.As stands now filter useful life is around 400 hours give or take.Have had a lot of problems concerning fuel pressure relating to fuel filters and have never found water in seperator bowl,ever!Has anyone ever had their sensor go off on a Duramax indicating water in the filter?Water contamination to the fuel system should be evidensends by the sensor light on these trucks if the seperator actually works,not.Will stick to the emulsifiers and a well used fuel depot for now.

[george morrison]

So my denial doesn't count???? I will be glad to forward you my VIN number of MY vehicle which was denied warranty due to obvious signs of rust.
I know of three Duramax owners who had warranty dis allow that I have direct relationship with who are farmers who purchased their Duramax trucks used. In each case warranty was disallowed due to obvious water contamination/rust in the fuel filter. In each case the trucks were running rough and taken in for a 'tune up'. In each case they were contacted with a "$3,000 to $6,000 repair to replace the complete fuel system including the fuel tank (!) due to water/fuel contamination. And in each case the owners took back their trucks without having the repairs completedand proceeded soon after to trade them in on used Dodges or Fords. With the proclamation that in 2 of the cases that they would never buy a GM product ever again!
The three Duramax owners purchase oil from us but do not additize their fuel or filter it. Given their storage tanks are unprotected they very likely have significant water content in their diesel fuels. In one case the farmer has had injector issues with his CAT tractor. So they very likely have had sub standard diesel fuels even by commercial standards. Irrespective, the trucks are gone and no VIN's available.. I am certain that if I personally know of three such instances, there are many similar ones where the owners took the trucks back (they do run, just roughly) and then quietly traded them in on Dodges or Fords just as the previously mentioned owners did..
George Morrison
However, MY VIN is certainly available! :)

[urcndust]

I'd just like to add a comment here if I may. My old 83 a few years back in the dead of winter, decided to stop running during one of the coldest January months I can remember in Indiana. I thought the fuel jelled up on me, so I changed the primary fuel filter. Upon removing it I found a block of ice that filled half the filter. I never used additives because I've always used Amoco Premiere fuel. Still didn't learn my lesson because last fall, I again changed the primary and secondary fuel filters after about 10,000 miles and to my horror, the primary and secondary were rusty and had water in the bottom of both. Truck has been running rough and smoking. The pump and injectors have about 30,000 miles on them, and it looks like they will need changed again and at least these are easier and cheaper than the Dmax and since it has over 200,000 miles on it, it's not a warranty issue, rather it's my issue. :mad:
Changed the first fuel filter on the Dmax, and it was a blackish color, no rust, but to me it indicated water. Started using PFFP Total Power from JK year around, then last fall I installed the mega filter and have about 6 thousand miles on it now.(never had a problem with air)I changed the Racor filter for the second time and the blackish color of the filter media was considerably less and no rust was evident. I also drained the mega, and found no evidences of water. Only comment is that everyone must do what they feel comfortable with and for me, I treat EVERY tank on both trucks with an emulsifier. ;)

[skidsteer loader]

I also use the total power, no probs to date, but my truck is brand new. Is 8oz. per 30gals. a good ratio? No harm will come if I O.D. the tank, correct? Thanks.

[mdrag]

TTT

Many good points on both sides.