View Full Version : Pre-Rusted OEM fuel filters/Concern!
george morrison
09-19-2003, 12:11
I am very much concerned with the posting of several OEM fuel filters that reflected significant internal corrosion; i.e. Pre-Rusted!!. I am in the process of obtaining some samples for inspection.. I have also seen several used OEM fuel filters so severely corroded that they have ruptured! I attributed those filters to high water content/poor fuel and not having used a good emulsifying fuel additive.
Moreover, if we indeed have a fuel filter self-generating particulates from 1 micron through 20 microns in a filter medium that is 50% efficient, we have a potential significant fuel system problem. From the few samples I have seen it would appear to be a production problem in that when a filter casing is formed it is a pretty radical deep draw. Metal surface, when exposed to this level of draw is very susceptible to rust/corrosion within minutes of the draw. Careful selection of draw lubricants and/or the use of vanishing oil can eliminate the corrosion issue. I am hoping that the corrosion examples I have seen so far are not exemplary and the exception... There should be *no* exceptions... However, the metal surfaces I saw in the one new sample looked as tho it was raw, unprotected metal surface which created the surface suceptible to corrosion.
Now I am thinking about the poor folks whose fuel systems have been denied warranty repair due to obvious system corrosion readily apparent in the fuel filter.... Hmmmm, pre-rusted filter, pre-destined for warranty disallow...... If we have corrosion already present on an internal fuel filter surface, the presence of not only free water but even losely entrained water will accelerate the corrosion process. Your basic cancer...
George Morrison
[ 09-19-2003, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: george morrison ]
Lone Eagle
09-19-2003, 14:40
George, I just finished inspecting three new Parker Interceptors that I purchased from DSI back in Feb. They are all in the the shrink wrap and have no sigh of rust. I have pulled many filters out of the box over the years that were rusty. We know we bought them that way because it never rains here and our average humidity is less than 30%. Later! Frank
George,
Whats your opinion on Rotella DFA (diesel fuel additive). I was told it was an emulsifying additive. :confused:
More Power
09-19-2003, 16:08
Some years ago, I read a product test where the author was looking for the best rust preventative.
He tested caster oil, motor oil (syn & petroleum), several different rust preventive products, and ATF.
What he found was that ATF provided the longest lasting protection from rust. His test involved applying a light coat of ATF, etc, to strips of bare steel, then exposed the test strips to coastal seaside weather for a period of time.
I wonder if our spare filters should be coated internally with a light coat of ATF to help protect them while in storage? Then, put them in a Zip-Lock.
MP
george morrison
09-19-2003, 17:17
Regarding rust preventives. I work with many metalworking shops that do similar deep draws (one of them makes warheads!) and the critical point is the proper metal treatment during and after the draw. Some of the filter innards I have seen reflect a lack of proper metal treatment during/after the draw. In my opinion, by the time we have received the ones I examined, it is too late; the corrosion process has already begun and we can slow it temporarily but as soon as our water laden diesel fuel comes in contact with the pre-rusted surface, corrosion will immediately begin again. This is my concern in that without proper filter manufacture, we are installing a potential hand grenade that will immediately begin producing abrasive metallic by-products in short order.
I am hoping this situation was/is limited to a small segment of filters. I have more filters arriving Monday for disection; hopefully others are doing the same so we can develop some baseline of just what we are dealing with in terms of filter integrity.
George
dmaxalliTech
09-19-2003, 17:40
Interesting problem on our hands huh? I agree with Jim on the ATF, I have also heard that OTR guys use ATF in fuel filters, they fill em up with it when they replace them and the ATF acts as a lubricant on the fuel system. I havent had the ba..s to try that with a dmax system yet. How would we coat the filters internals? Poor through top of filter or into WIF sensor hole and roll it around to coat?
So far we've seen several oem's, 1 ally, and 1 baldwin that had rust on them out of the box. hopefully someone can dissect a racor filter off the 690 head to see if it is all racor's or just some. george cut open a cat 0749 filter yesterday, posted the pictures, and so far that seems to be the only one with the "vanishing oil" rust preventative. he also noted that the cat has cast aluminum top instead of stampted steel. does anyone know of any other filters that have a cast aluminum head instead of stampted steel? too bad cat doesn't make an OEM replacement. if anyone knows anybody at racor now is the time to start working our way up the ladder!
Like I posted elsewhere, General Motors needs to be asking their primary supplier of fuel filters (Racor) why some of their factory wrapped and unused filters have internal corrosion. Forget the engineers, anybody know an accountant at GM? ;)
I'll take a look at one of my R60S filters when I get home from Las Vegas.
Skip the WIF sensor and build an adapter so we can use a better filter in the stock location.
Stock Racor is a pain in the butt anyway!
JK can do a litle "backwoods engineering" with some of his human resources and problem solved.
The bean counters at GM are not going to listen to 10,000 Dmax owners so we might as well do it ourself.
Different filter and run a good additive and problem solved imho.
Blake
Some backwoods engineering may solve the problem for TDP forum readers, however for the larger DMAX community the problem needs to be addressed by GM.
When the GM "bean counters" realize they are paying out millions in warranty repair bills because of sub-standard processes from a supplier, the condition will be addressed.
They will make "design changes" to improve on their product but I don't think we'll ever see and admission from them.
I think a large percentage of the problems will show up after the warranty expires and then their parts dept will make bank on us.
I need an adapter!
Blake
george morrison
09-20-2003, 05:29
Regarding your excellent comment of "When the GM "bean counters" realize they are paying out millions in warranty repair bills because of sub-standard processes from a supplier, the condition will be addressed." This is one of my concerns, although just the inverse.. GM's fine print reads that if a fuel system has signs of corrosion, warranty will be disallowed. Soooo, if we have an OEM fuel filter pre-rusted right out of the box, we have a warranty refusal built in! GM beancounters would be most happy! If a person starts out with visible corrosion in a fuel filter and does not use a diesel fuel treatment with emulsifier capability, the entrained water will cause the initial rust to continue to grow as in wild fire. As has been seen from some of the used OEM fuel filters, in some cases they have rusted through. Had the Duramax been taken in for some fuel related problem, there would be no warranty repairs permitted due to the obvious signs of system corrosion! I know personally of two farms where this exact scenario played out. In both cases the owners could not afford the repair costs and immediately traded the trucks for brand x diesels to get out of the liability. At the time it was occurring I just assumed that their problems stemmed from using "farm diesel fuel' which can, at times, be less than pristine; sitting out in dusty areas without a desiccant breather, condensation, untreated, etc.. I realize that the filter corrosion is not by design but by putting a pre-rusted filter on, we have a particle generating, potentially damaging filter that may well prevent us from getting warranty repair! Classic catch 22 indeed.
Hopefully we can get some more feedback on OEM pre-rust conditions from other members, soon..... AC now shows a number for the OEM replacement but the filter is not yet available for sale..
George
The rust in the fuel filter is a valid concern I believe.
With about 25k on a fuel filter I had a no start condition. On first try truck started and ran for about 3-5 seconds, then died not to fire again.
Tech at the my dealer, who's a racing buddy of mine, found a pin hole leak in the filter. Around the pin hole it appeared to be rusting. This pin hole was enough for the fuel system to loose it's vacuum, fuel drained back to the tank, thus I was left with air, this causing the no start condition. He did say that he found a large amount of water in the water separator, though it didn't appear to be quite enough for the PCM to set off the "water in fuel" code.
With my meager knowledge of this issue, through experience I would say that rust is a valid concern. Changing the filters at lower intervals may help stranded issues though it still doesn't address the presence of rust and where those rusted/corroded particles of the filter casing end up.
[ 09-20-2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Derek M ]
george morrison
09-20-2003, 06:17
Just returned from Saturday am parts run, on the Ducati, :) , to the local Chevrolet dealer. One new filter purchased for $57.87. The filter has clearly visible corrosion in the bottom portion of the filter as seen through the water sensor port. I will disect this filter on Monday, with photos..
George
The dealer tagged you for 57 bucks on a fuel filter?
I thought 40 dollars was bad but my word! :rolleyes:
Is that the going rate in your area George?
Blake
Originally posted by george morrison:
Just returned from Saturday am parts run, on the Ducati, :) , to the local Chevrolet dealer. One new filter purchased for $57.87. The filter has clearly visible corrosion in the bottom portion of the filter as seen through the water sensor port. I will disect this filter on Monday, with photos..
George What a guy needs to do is cut it open BEFORE leaving and then make sure the SM, GM, and PM see it...
gene smith
09-20-2003, 07:05
Looks like this will be a good reason to put a J/K Mega in the Post position,here goes anathor $230.00 over a G.M. screw up. Let me see know filter in post position warranty void, rust in system your fault due to poor fuel purchase warranty void, New injectors 6000.00. Kiss my a$$ G.M. Hey John you got a mega in stock.
Geno
George,
This is similar to what I posted with pictures on the other website, using an inspection mirror. Four filters still in original plastic wrappings were opened and a small amount of corrosion was present on the lip near the water sensor opening.
Others (Lone Eagle, DMAX_Maverick, ??) have indicated that they inspected multiple filters and have no corrosion present. The original OEM fuel filter that was installed on my truck, that was used for 8K miles and then cut apart for inspection had no corrosion present (inspected over 1 year ago). This used and cut-open filter case has been sitting in my garage for over a year and it still has no corrosion present.
Your opening comments about a production or process problem may be the issue here.
Alan
MadDuraMax
09-20-2003, 13:14
George,
This is sounding more and more familar. Most drawing compounts act as a reasonable rust inhibitor as long as raw parts are processed in a reasonable time period. Use of vanishing oil during the drawing process is not favored by most stamping houses due to fumes, increase die wear and pressing pressures needed. Unfortunately, these "other" drawing compounds most likely need to be washed from the filter "shells" for secondary assembly processes to be completed properly. The inside of a cleanly washed filter housing is the ideal breeding ground for surface or flash corrosion to form due to condensation forming inside of the can.
Good drying after the washing process and the use of VCI (Vapor Corrosion Inhibitor) papers can solve this problem but are costly (bring on the bean counters). The obvious clue to this is my "new" filter is just shrink wrapped. Put that same filter in the refrigerator for a couple of hours, remove the shrink warp, cut it open and look at the condensation inside of the can.
Near white metal & water = Rust! Thanks goes to our filter suppliers for saving $.10 and potentially causing us major fuel system repair expense.
'nough said,
Mark
gene smith
09-20-2003, 14:29
I got me a Mega coming, I sure hope John looks inside those baldwins before he ships the kit :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Geno
george morrison
09-20-2003, 15:49
Regarding the $57. Yes, that is the going GM dealer rate in central Ohio. Or maybe pre-rusted ones are higher priced.. Sorry for the sarchasim, this just gets my ire up. The corrison level is what I would term 'severe' for a new finished surface in that I am not going to be able to scotchbrite this corrosion off the surface. In machining we do see surface rust occasionally; many times with bad coolant or if coolant is not monitored for concentration levels/bacteria, etc. Most of the time it is easily scotch brite away. The corrosion I see in this new filter is into the surface metal. Seriously into it..
Regarding vanishing oil. We have a draw operation we supply coolants for that produces the missile heads for current military; deeeeep draw. Then a vanishing oil is applied after the draw as the heads may sit for months/years prior to use. The mil spec vanishing oil is required to last 3 years. And it does..
Gosh I wish we had another OEM filter supplier!! (and yes, this is something we all said 6 months ago before beginning the supplemental fuel filter program!)
Again, AC has a number in their books, just no product. AC says product is on its way...
George
LanduytG
09-20-2003, 15:54
If I get some time in the next couplre of days I will pull some OEM off the shelf and see whats in them.
Greg
ndamico wrote:
So far we've seen several oem's, 1 ally, and 1 baldwin that had rust on them out of the box. hopefully someone can dissect a racor filter off the 690 head to see if it is all racor's or just some. george cut open a cat 0749 filter yesterday, posted the pictures, and so far that seems to be the only one with the "vanishing oil" rust preventative. he also noted that the cat has cast aluminum top instead of stampted steel. does anyone know of any other filters that have a cast aluminum head instead of stampted steel? too bad cat doesn't make an OEM replacement. if anyone knows anybody at racor now is the time to start working our way up the ladder! Just curious Nick,
Which Baldwin filter do you refer to and who cut it open ? :confused: As far as I know both the Mega filters (BF7635) that have been cut open were both clean.
George...in light of Racor supplying all the other filter companies with the same filter, do you believe AC will make their own filter, or just re-package the same Racor filter?
a bear, i believe it was blueox if i'm not mistaken:
http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=006745
red sled
09-21-2003, 04:20
Originally posted by LanduytG:
If I get some time in the next couplre of days I will pull some OEM off the shelf and see whats in them.
Greg Greg I just received three fuel filters from you on 9/19/03 and after careful inspection with a flashlight and an inspection mirror I can only report a pristine surface condition on all three filters. I now have them individually vacuum packed and stored inside where they shall stay that way till I use them.
Originally posted by ndamico:
So far we've seen several oem's, 1 ally, and 1 baldwin that had rust on them out of the box. hopefully someone can dissect a racor filter off the 690 head to see if it is all racor's or just some. george cut open a cat 0749 filter yesterday, posted the pictures, and so far that seems to be the only one with the "vanishing oil" rust preventative. he also noted that the cat has cast aluminum top instead of stampted steel. does anyone know of any other filters that have a cast aluminum head instead of stampted steel? too bad cat doesn't make an OEM replacement. if anyone knows anybody at racor now is the time to start working our way up the ladder! Just to set the record straight, regardless of the box it comes in, I'm sure that Baldwin did NOT make that element if it was made to spin on the OE mount. They, along with all others, (to the best of my knowledge) at present, purchase from Racor/Parker and resell. So if you are going to compare the Cat to anything, comapre it to the High Efficiency media fuel filters by Baldwin.
On to the business at hand. I had one of the OE units here with a chipped ring (shipped out and returned) so I cut it apart. No rust visible. Dealer's off the shelf unit was clean appearing as well. Part of this could be related to a bad batch, OR post production handling. Either way, it is still serious, and I believe the only way to get someone to take notice is to buy one off the shelf, inspect, and dissect in front of the supplier. Any supplier worth his salt will raise holy hell with the next supplier his source, and verify that this was done in his presence...
Nick,
I think that you and HB (Mr X) mistakenly drew a different conclusion to blueox's post as I have spoken to him myself. Below should explain.
Quote by blueox:
I checked the Baldwin I have in standby today, it has some spots in it. I didn't cut it open, I just used an inspection mirror. When I cut open the factory filter, it had spots of rust and some chunks of rust. The chunks were pretty good size, I think I got some of a storage tank from somewhere. In my opinion, the problem is that the opening for the water sensor allows air and moisture to get inside, where most other spin on filters have media in between the case and the atmosphere. It only takes a little moisture to get rust going and the media most likely keeps that little bit out. I'd bet money that if the manufacturer put a plug in the bottom this wouldn't happen.
My $.02
TJ
The filter he refered to here is the Baldwin (BF7727) replacement for the OEM that is also manufactured by Racor whom is the only manufacturer of this OEM filter at this time.
Next Quote by blueox:
Hopfully I'll be feeling good within a week. I'll be ringing JK's phone as soon as he opens in the AM. Kinda hard to put any faith in something that's prebroke or prerusted as the case may be.
TJ
This quote was made not to complain about a Mega filter but to purchase one to install post of the above said filter.
To date I know of two Mega filters that have been cut open with no reported rust or corrosion. Speaking for the one I personally cut open, it was completely spotless.
Mr X or yourself may want to consider straightening up the post on your site where your post gave him the OK to post blueox's reply which was misunderstood. The Mega filter users there should be informed to know that they are safe with their filters. I would be more than happy to post my e-mail and reply from blueox but I would have to OK this with him first.
Regards,
Tommy
Geno,
Hope this helps! smile.gif
BlueOx03
09-21-2003, 07:04
I just want to clear some things up here. The filter that I had with rust on it is an OE replacement. A Racor in a Baldwin box if you will. It was purchased locally (in Mass). The rust on it was around the WIF sensor port. I did NOT cut that filter open, I checked the inside with a mirror. There was no visible rust on the inside so I installed it. I did cut open the filter that came on the truck and found rust had formed on the inside and there was also large pieces of rust, I'm guessing part of a storage tank .
When I talked about the Mega from Kennedy, I was saying that I was going to buy one right away after seeing the filter that came off my truck first hand. I want to keep this crap out of the engine. I'll be putting it on the day UPS drops it off at my door.
I'm not sure how this turned into me talking bad about the Mega. Maybe because I duked it out with Kennedy over that exhaust system? Just a guess, I'm not sure. Maybe this is about to turn into the same type of thing. If so, I'm up to bat for the Mega.
TJ
[ 09-21-2003, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: BlueOx03 ]
BlueOx03 and a bear,
Thanks for the clarification. Here is a shot of the inside of the metal case from a Baldwin BF7635 after 15K miles (http://community.webshots.com/photo/78464371/87220459UDpznB) - clean and rust free. The DURAMAX FUEL FILTER album at the second link in my sig has many more pics of cut open fuel filters.
gene smith
09-21-2003, 10:36
Hey ox
Like you I am tired of all the B.S. I ordered a mega from john and will be installing it in the post position and there will be a lift pump in the system, If warranty gets voided the system will still be cheaper than a set of injectors.
Geno
BlueOx03
09-21-2003, 11:57
Mine will be here and on on th 24th. I'm gonna stay away from the lift pump/prefilter though. I'll keep you all up to date good and or bad.
TJ
I'll be installing a lift pump just as soon as John has one ready....my Mega's filtration appears to be very good but I will be most pleased to not have to bleed it so often ... Jim
I have not heard or seen any warranty issues on "pre-rusted" elements. I would think that at least one rusty can would get back through GM return system for our inspection. Whenever you have metal surfaces, painted, coated or otherwise, there is always the chance that you could get rust and corrosion under humid conditions.
If the corrosion is a few spots found on the inside (dirty side) of the can, it's really not that serious. But then I'm talking here to serious truck owners where nothing short of ultimate 100% protection is the requirement. Therefore, I would suggest trading the filter in for a new one.
Most of the returns we see involving corrosion, contain rust that wasn't from the Racor filter. Of course if a lot of water is present in the fuel, and it just sits in the bottom of the can month after month, you will get corrosion and rust eventually. One more reason to drain water from the filter weekly, dash light or no dash light.
Some people here in the forum seem to think that emulsifiying water in the fuel system with additives will avoid corrosion. But there is some evidence that those types of additives allow water to bypass the filter and enter the injection system. There the water corrodes sensitive parts. Even Bosch is worried about that. A water de-emulsifier would be a better choice. Get the water out before the injection system.
Racor is coming out with a R60 kit to put ahead of the OEM filter. With two filters, the primary can remove bulk water, asphaltines, and quite a bit of solids. The OEM secondary can then remove the rest of the water and take another shot at the particles. The particle count difference can be dramatic. Give us 6 to 10 weeks; the electronics are difficult to match to the DMAX system. That's the hold up. Expect a heater kit too.
While were talking about particle counts, you might want to put a filtered air breather on your fuel tank. If you are in a dusty environment, the tank vent is open to all that. I don't know if that will cause odd behavior in the fuel system, but it's worth looking at. Don't let the particles in in the first place.
Racor,
What about the OEM filters that had the bottom plate of the element completely fall off due to poor adhesion of the bonding material. When the plate falls off everything on the element would just wash off and go straight to the injectors. IMHO GM is in need of a completely new filter. Look in the pics below and you will see one of these filters. Glad I had a post OEM filter. :eek
I had purchased a 2 micron vent from AV lube close to a year ago. The problem is finding a non vented fill cap.
I don't like that picture at all. That happens when there is a Plastisol formula and/or heat curing problem. We pull test a sizable number of filters in order to avoid this. The fact is, adhesion problems happen to all pleated filter manufacturers. How often? That picture is the first DMAX one I've heard of or seen since the beginning of the program.
IMHO all light truck manufacturers need to consider larger multi-filter systems.
FirstDiesel
09-23-2003, 16:04
Racor
How do you explain the filters with rust before they have ever been installed on the truck. You can't pass the blame off on water in the fuel or the use of fuel additives.
Racor,
Thanks for taking the time to answer questions and offer explanations. Here is a picture of an end cap separation (http://www.thedieselpage.com/reviews/megafilter.htm) on my Dmax Racor fuel filter. I would like to submit this filter for Racor's inspection if interested, along with any information that might help.
Click HERE (http://community.webshots.com/album/78464371PcGaFz) for pictures of various cut open Dmax Racor fuel filters. These filters were sent to me by members of TDP forums and vary from brand new/unused still in the shrink wrap, to a 70K example. The brand new/unused and 12K filters have Carquest graphics on the case. The new/unused filter has significant surface rust throughout the case and was sent to me by JEBar after seeing the extensive rusting in his 12K filter. IIRC, the 12K filter was on his truck for approximately 7 months. JEBar has given me permission to send these to Racor for inspection if someone is interested.
Forum members,
Please remember NOT to shoot the messenger :eek: I believe we are all working toward a common goal and do not want to alienate those who may be able to help us with this challenge.
After reading my post, I wanted to clarify that my messenger comment was not directed at any specific person. Past topics have shown passionate interest (and frustration) when dealing with this subject.
mdrag
FirstDiesel
09-23-2003, 17:30
Don't shoot the messanger as long as the messenger is willing to listen. Seems I remember the last time there were filter posts by Racor there was some degree of disbelief on his part about the discussion that was occuring. If there is true interest and concern great but the first post wasn't very promising. :eek:
Mdrag has a good point about not shooting the messenger. Racor is stating his opinions and observations from a manufacturer viewpoint. Personally, I'd like to hear what he has to say about filtration, as well as additives. I'd also be interested in hearing more about the filter system that they will be coming out with.
Originally posted by FirstDiesel:
Don't shoot the messanger as long as the messenger is willing to listen. Seems I remember the last time there were filter posts by Racor there was some degree of disbelief on his part about the discussion that was occuring. If there is true interest and concern great but the first post wasn't very promising. :eek: And HOW!!!!
FirstDiesel
09-24-2003, 02:10
Originally posted by roegs:
Mdrag has a good point about not shooting the messenger. Racor is stating his opinions and observations from a manufacturer viewpoint. Personally, I'd like to hear what he has to say about filtration, as well as additives. I'd also be interested in hearing more about the filter system that they will be coming out with. I would too and would be more interested in him helping solve the problem. I just remember the last filter debate that he showed up for was basically him telling us they made a great filter, it was good enoguh, and it was made to Bosch specs and it was fine. And we all knew different already. Now we know even more!! :(
So if the messenger listens and is concerned and helpful I would guess he has nothing to worry about. :D
Racor,
It is good to have you read some of our posts here on The Diesel Page with respect to fuel filtration. Anyway, I have several questions (or information) for you.
First, I have made two separate OEM Racor filters purchases (of six filters per purchase). The first group of six was purchased from Diesel Injection Services (DIS an advertiser on this site) about 2 years ago. The second group of six was purchased from Oil Guard (another advertiser on this site) about 10 months ago. I have examined the unused filters from each group. I used an inspection mirror to view inside of the filters through the open water sensor port. All filters were still wrapped in the original platic wrapping and had been stored in my garage. Of the three remaining DIS lot, no corrosion was found. Of the four remaining from the Oil Guard purchase, each has signs of spot corrosion. I took a picture of the worst one and it is shown in the Link Posted by Mdrag in the next message on this thread below (see second page of link, last picture)
(Thank you Mdrag)
So my first question (1): Is the corrosion shown in the picture an acceptable level per the manufacturing/quality processes your company has adopted? (ISO Certified?) (When viewing the picture remember, it was taken looking into a mirror, so the surface you see is actually the inside end of the filter.)
My second question (2): When examining the two lots of filters (which were purchased about a year apart in time), I noticed that a change had been made to the plastic part that the water sensor screws into, right near where the corrosion is present. Realizing that it costs money to make changes to parts that are already in production, why did Racor change the part? (More curiosity than anything else)
And lastly, here is something positive. As you know, we have been sampling fuel and sending it to a lab to have it analyzed. At the following links you will find a spreadsheet that tabulates the results for various filter combinations people have used here at TDP.
An Excel Version:
http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO/OC_Dmax.xls
A PDF Version:
http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO/OC_Dmax.pdf
It has been shown that Racor
OC_DMAX,
Here is a link for OC_DMAX's New/Unused fuel filter picture (http://community.webshots.com/album/78464371PcGaFz). The picture should be the first one in the album. It may take a few minutes to show up since I just uploaded it.
mdrag
More Power
09-24-2003, 08:13
Right below the text box where you enter the text for your message, there is a list of buttons that allow you to add "images" (and other stuff) with a single button (and for typing in the image URL).
It looks like this:
http://www.thedieselpage.com/images/addimage.gif
MP
I can feel a storm brewing...
The pictures are worth a thousand words.
Rust: The filter cans are tin plated inside and out. Yes, the can forming process does sometimes damage the tin plating. There is also an inside coating of rust preventative. Sometimes humidity conditions overcome these coatings and you get rust spots. As it is on the dirty side of the element, we have no evidence that this contributes significantly to the particle load to the engine. If during service the filter has water in the sump a significant amount of time, rust will occur. Having said all that, I have passed the concerns on to engineering for review. No rust is the goal.
Detached End caps: First, it is unusual that the end cap detached. The one photo showed a collapsed filter and broken plastisol. This is very unusual. However, it should be noted that this filter should have been changed a long time before this happened. I have passed this photo on to engineering and manufacturing engineering for review. We are always improving processes and failures are taken very seriously.
The change to the bottom threaded part was made because the original part was a bought part, and the material was not heat stable enough to make it through our powder paint curing ovens. The new part is Racor made and higher quality.
[ 09-24-2003, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Racor ]
Originally posted by Racor: .....Detached End caps: First, it is unusual that the end cap detached. The one photo showed a collapsed filter and broken plastisol. This is very unusual. However, it should be noted that this filter should have been changed a long time before this happened. I have passed this photo on to engineering and manufacturing engineering for review. We are always improving processes and failures are taken very seriously.
Racor,
If you don't mind, please explain your statement in bold.
My collapsed filter with end cap separation occured with 3,022 miles/124.7 hrs as stated in the text accompaning the picture. The only reason I changed it at 1/5th GM's recommended interval of 15K miles is that my truck started to run poorly - rough and erratic idle, very loud diesel clatter, black smoke, stalling, and then no start - all occuring over a few hours.
What are your recommendations for servicing the OEM Racor filter? Mileage and/or hour suggestions would be appreciated.
Mike Fultz
09-24-2003, 11:11
How about sending fuel filters back to the factory for examination:
Parker Hannifin Corporation
Racor Division
PO Box 3208
Modesto, CA 95353
800.344.3286
209.521.7860
North America Manufacturing Locations
3400 Finch Road
Modesto, CA 95354
Fuel Filtration Systems 800.344.3286
209.521.7860
Racor,
Thank you for the timely reply. Hopefully, your engineering staff can evaluate the issues and make some small tweaks to your manufacturing processes to assure a quality product for the GM Duramax truck owners.
Regards,
Alan
Looking at the base of the filter element, you will see a "compartmentalized" nylon insert that interfaces with the steel can. Drain all you want, but the compartments in the filter can and the sensor have the ability to retain water, and allow it to migrate when disturbed only to settle back in.
One thing worth noting: It was I that changed JeBar's OE fuel filter, and what I typically do is drain filters into a relatively clean glass measuring cup. This way I see any water drained. I do remember seeing grit and rust in the compartments of the sensor which I blew out with air. Never had a cause (till now) to look inside the element...
Originally posted by Mike Fultz:
How about sending fuel filters back to the factory for examination:
Parker Hannifin Corporation
Racor Division
PO Box 3208
Modesto, CA 95353
800.344.3286
209.521.7860
North America Manufacturing Locations
3400 Finch Road
Modesto, CA 95354
Fuel Filtration Systems 800.344.3286
209.521.7860 Mike,
I offered to send these filters - mentioned twice in my post near the bottom of the first page in this topic.
I would prefer a 'contact' with a name/position/phone number at Racor interested in these filters - rather than a corporate address.
If a Racor representative would like to continue this privately and remain behind the scenes off a public forum, send an email to:
turbo@thedieselpage.com
mdrag
The problem with just anybody returning filters is that we already receive many of them back from DMAX for general inspection. That's why the pictures are enough for now. We don't like rust or loose end caps either, but it happens, and it needs to be delt with. We are working on it.
If you want to return a filter, take it back to the GM dealer, fill out a report, and it may make it back to Racor for inspection. The history of the filter is important and the report format insures good information. Send all the element pictures you have to racor customer service. At least we can see and log the problems.
Most of the filter returns tell us that the fuel out there can run from kerosene clean to horrible black and/or rusty sludge. You can't expect the filter to work when your fuel plugs it solid in a few thousand miles. Really, the filter change out period depends on the quality of the fuel only. The emphasis seems to be on the filters; but all of the problems are really fuel quality issues. We don't know what fuel you are buying, so if it's not light honey clear, don't expect filters to last too long.
You are ultimately responsible for the quality of fuel that you put in your truck. Often our job is to stop the truck dead if the filter is plugged and save the engine from the sludge that would have entered it. From the "loose end cap" picture, sometimes this does not happen and that needs to be corrected so the protection is 100%
Something is wrong with the way diesel fuel is handled in this country; it shouldn't be so dirty and wet. Knowing that, either the fuel distribution system needs to step up and clean up their act, or diesel trucks are going to have to start carrying around really big filters.
LanduytG
09-24-2003, 15:41
Something is wrong with the way diesel fuel is handled in this country; it shouldn't be so dirty and wet. Knowing that, either the fuel distribution system needs to step up and clean up their act, or diesel trucks are going to have to start carrying around really big filters.
Amen to that!! I have looked at all my stock and none of them have rust. I talked with my supplier about this and they said if I ever have that problem to bring them back. I will be looking at all of them before going out the door now.
Greg
I've been watching as I ship, and they've seemed good, but it appears as though I've hit a point where the remaining handful on the shelf are rusty.
Racor,
"We are working on it" sounds encouraging. I'll hold onto my filters since I do not have much faith that they will make it to Racor via my GM dealer, and I'd hate to loose such a rare specimen. If you change your mind and would like to inspect my failed filter, I'd be glad to send it directly to a contact at Racor.
I agree with your comments on the poor quality of diesel fuel in the US, unfortunately most of us have to deal with this everyday. I purchased my fuel whenever possible from the same station that my GM dealer used to fill the tank when I bought the truck. I've seem many delivery trucks, ambulances, and fire dept vehicles fueling there. After the filter failure, I drove 20 miles round trip to fuel at an truck stop on the interstate - the fuel may be fresh, but it is not clean as evidenced by an unfiltered fuel test report and the appearance of a recent low mileage fuel filter.... I recently switched to a brand new station that opened about 2 weeks ago.
I still have not figured out how to ensure that I'm buying clean, light honey clear diesel fuel...any suggestions?
Thanks for your interest and help.
Racor wrote in part:
Racor is coming out with a R60 kit to put ahead of the OEM filter.
With two filters, the primary can remove bulk water, asphaltines,
and quite a bit of solids. The OEM secondary can then remove the
rest of the water and take another shot at the particles. The
particle count difference can be dramatic. Give us 6 to 10 weeks;
the electronics are difficult to match to the DMAX system.
That's the hold up. Expect a heater kit too. Racor,
Is that going to be an R60S (2 micron) or R60T (10 micron).... and
don't you have these available currently as your Model # 660? What
will be different?
Thanks
Regarding the pre-filter kit, yes it is basically an R60T with a bracket. We're going with 10 micron, but you can use a 2 micron if you want to. The main advantage of the kit is that we're including special fittings to cleanly go from the filter threads to the steel piping on the truck. The kit will come with an electronic water detection probe that integrates into the existing DMAX dash warning light system. The electrical harness, connectors, fittings and bracket are ready, but the electronics aren't talking yet. There will also be a 200 watt heater option; or it may be standard. We're not going to let this kit go until it's done right.
Racor,
The kit sounds like it will be a very nice setup. :cool: Will installation require cutting the OEM steel fuel line?
Yes, you will have to cut the steel lines. It's easy and safe.
Racor,
It sounds like your company has put some effort (dollars and human resources) into designing an integrated supplemental fuel filter solution for Duramax owners.
Most people on this forum are aware that Racor is the supplier of the fuel filter and filter head assembly to GM for the Duramax engines.
So my questions are: Has your company had any discussion about the supplemental fuel filter product with General Motors and secondly, does GM support and approve of its addition to the stock fuel system?
Thanks in advance for your reply,
Alan
Yes, we often talk to DMAX regarding the pre-filter system. They are driving the project on our recommendations. I'm sure that offical approval can only be granted when testing is complete. The timeline for release is "before winter sets in."
ratlover
09-26-2003, 12:52
If racor/dmax is pursuing the addition of additional filtration then they must agree that there is a possibility of the OE filter being inadequate? Why not just build a better filter? I agree that more is better than a single but wouldnt a single filter that screws onto the factory plate and uses the factory WIF sensor and provides better filtration be good enough? I'm sure GM could just charge more for this "super filter". People would have a better filter/warranty claims would be lessened/GM losses a bit of its rep for a bad fule system. I'm not seeing a down side.
Thanks BTW for showing up. Its very nice to hear from a manufacturer. smile.gif
I agree with a replacement element on the same base. They could phase out the ones we have now and let the new one become the OEM replacement. If a 1/2" thick spacer is added to the existing mount to bring the filter 1/2" out further from the engine you can literally double the length of the filter without a problem. This would provide the means of using a tighter media and would give more residence time for the filter to do it's job. The water sensor could remain the same. This would make a huge difference.
Racor, What do you think?
Changing to a larger single filter would improve performance, but major engine layout re-design and crash testing would be necessary.
At the current location, there simply isn't a way to go much larger without running into the exhaust manifold. Isuzu controled the DMAX filter size and location very tightly. Even small changes are difficult. You have to remember that just having space under the hood doesn't make it useable. Manufacturing, cost, and crash tests must be considered. There is always a good reason for things to be where they are under the hood. A lot of engineering goes into it; and it doesn't always end up perfect.
Even if the single current filter were made larger, it is still at a disadvantage when compared to a two filter system. Asphalines will eventually coat the paper in the single system and defeat the water removal capability.
In a two filter system, the primary can remove the asphaltines, while the secondary can remove residual water and whatever particles are left. As a pair, they will last longer and do a better job than a single filter of comparable media area and size.
This tends to sound like a filter design problem, but it's actually a fuel quality problem. You can't design for filtering sludge and keep the cost reasonable too. Most people will never need any more filter than the one that's on the DMAX engine now.
Quick question for Racor or George.
What micron rating would effectively remove asphalines to prevent/minimize collection on the OEM.
Asphaltines are sticky, soft, sub-micron sized solids dissolved in #2 diesel fuel. Filters don't remove asphaltines as much as asphaltines simply coat the filter fibers until the filter is plugged. A 10 micron rated filter will attract much, if not most, of the dissolved asphaltines on first pass.
I received an order of RACOR Interceptor (OEM) fuel filters today and 2 out of 6 were severely rusted on the inside where the WIF sensor screws in :eek: . Another one of the 6 had some other type of residue – maybe glue. All the filters were sealed but the rust could be seen through the wrapper. Using a dental mirror I could see that the rust extended all around the inside of the WIF sensor opening. Not good! http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/icons/icon13.gif I called the supplier and they are sending me three new ones along with a prepaid shipping label to return the faulty filters. I’m happy with the supplier’s response, but it makes you wonder how many of these faulty filters are installed in trucks.
I see a STRONG need for an aftermarket replacement unit for these...
I recently (1 week ago) recieved my Oilguard bypass filter. They were selling OE fuel filters so cheap I had them throw in 3 with the rest of my order. One was fine, one had some residue as previously described by jbplock(looked like glue) and one was SEVERELY rusted on the inside. Ironically this one in particular arrived with the wrapper torn on the WIF sensor side. I notified Oilguard, they called their supplier, they called me back and said the supplier was aware of the problem. They gave me a UPS # so I could return the 2 free of charge. 2 more are on the way.
Seems to me that given the widespread nature of this problem and the potential damage done by such a defect that RACOR would issue some kind of recall. Are they liable if a problem arises from using one of these? Where is RACOR on this forum? And where is that pre-filter/lift pump? SPICER
Gbenzx01
12-04-2003, 18:50
Isuzu BooBoo? :rolleyes:
I had almost defeated the urge but it finally got the best of me after all. :confused:
With 24K mi on the oem system & cycling the h2o drain every fillup the filter never yielded more than a drop or two with no emulsifier.
Since going to the Stanadyne pump/filter/seperator 9kmi ago we can drain abt good half cup every other fill up. For 50+ years tractor mfgs have kept water seperators below the fuel level. Isuzu didn't know this?
Abt suction & additional filter media?
We've seen pics shown on DP revealing that abt 1/3 or more in some cases of the filter media not being utilized due to suction resistence. Any further resistence without increasing suction ability shall reduce the filter performance even more.
Air? Even carpenders know better! And everyone else who has been furnished a simple straw from mcdonalds.
Anyway my dealer talked us out of moving the cat2 from under the airbox to replace the oem. Something abt a misfit of the gm guarntee. :(
Thanx, Gben
Sorry yall but there is one more thing I didn't see mentioned abt the filter rust so;
Sense I'll continue to use the oem until the warrantee expires anyway wonder if Racor has adopted measures via venders to stop the sale of the rusted filters. We here at DP now know but what abt the thousands that do not? A good firm effort by them could head off further contamination & protect their good name.
Sincere thanks to Mr George Morrison for producing yet another thread here at DP for the benefit of all.
Thnx, Gben
[ 12-05-2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Gbenzx01 ]
Gbenzx01
12-09-2003, 18:27
FINAL NOTICE !
What is the status of Racor's new filter? Most of this discussion was back in September.
Jim
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