Power Box Advice [Archive] - TheDieselPage.com Forums

SoCalDieselNewbie

12-07-2002, 22:02

I have used 3 of the different power adders (boxes)....

What remains on my truck is the duramaximizer and a TTS PCM.

Personally, I think the people at Edge are chasing their tails and will never get their programs flawless and bug free.

For Chirstsakes, the HOT JUICE will turn off your engine when the lights come on.

The Juice box was a good premise.... the problem is that you can't make a box, that is doing what the juice wants to do, and have it work on all trucks.

The software in these trucks is constantly changing DURING the model year... let alone in different model years.

I invite ANYONE WITH A JUICE BOX to take a little ride with me. Yea, it is blazing fast... whatever... the RELIABILITY AND DRIVABILITY IS RETAINED!

No mysterous shutdowns on the freeway... fish bite... no disconnecting the box to get the truck to work... NO PROBLEMS WHAT SO EVER!

WHY? Because they write the software to match the INDIVIDUAL TRUCK rather than trying to do a mass production "1 size fits all" box.

It is why you have to take a picture of your glovebox stickers. So they have your VIN and options.

Funny, you never see the guys with the TTS PCM talking about bugs or constantly shipping the box back for a new version.

The only viable option IMHO is the TTS PCM. It can be bought from TS or PPE.

Your 40,000 truck will still act like a 40,000 vehicle should...

Swayse

12-08-2002, 06:14

Turn off the motor when the lights come on? Wow, that would scare the crap out of ya. I'm glad mine has never done that. The defueling between shifts is getting a bit old though, but I guess it's done for the good of the tranny. But what I do like it the 3 minute install, and that it doesn't raise fuel rail pressure. I wish a guy could try everything and see what he likes the best and does the best at the strip.

JEBar

12-08-2002, 07:30

I listened to Mack (believe it or not, doing so didn't get me into trouble) and am on my 2nd Juice box .... if was to buy a new one today it would be a new Juice .... Jim

mackin

12-08-2002, 08:01

SoCalDieselNewbie

I think the only one chasing ones tail,or will be, is you ......Point is as JK has pointed out there are individual characteristics to these tucks.....All specs have a workable tolerance.....Put two identical trucks on a DYNO and you may get two different results.......

There are completely different software upgrades For EACH truck or is it mass????You mean there is NO truck out there that has the same software as mine, nor options????You will never have to send your Power Loader back for a upgrade?????They simply lock the product via VIN number,who you fooling.......??I suppose my truck runs faster,better, due to Leather seats and fog lights,they must of had to turn up the POWER!!!!!!There are many trucks rolling across AMERICA with the same specs as mine.......

The TTS Power loader may well be the MOD of MODS but until more then two on this BB or else where have them that tell the tale,can it be claim as all greatness,hale to the chief
.....What's up with the DURAMAXIMIZER when they were first released prior to EDGE PRODUCTS??? How many revisions and it doesn't have the ease of installation, NOR the off the IDLE response......Who much NEGITIVE feed back was the result of that product and still to this DAY the bash the competitor in their FAQ section,as a form of sales promotion.....TRASH TALK,sorta what your doing,HHMMMMM,I wonder.....Why is it when you add the DURAMAXIMIZER that one has to pay full price for, but when used in conjunction,with the Power Loader, you don't get full advantage of the product?????

How many positive results compared to some minor glitches in HOW MANY UNITS SOLD by EDGE?????

Remember the Duramax is NEW school electronic controls, as you know.....For plug and play.....I'm not bashing you like your BASHING a competitors product, so you really should remain somewhat what neutral when throwing in your dish rag of excuses, with lame false accusations....Wouldn't it have been better to just claim the TTS Powerloader is an excellent product and not bring up the MAIN competition???? No affiliation just common sense.....

Word of MOUTH and RELIABILITY standing behind one's product and NEVER mention the COMPETITION will gain you more RESPECT,and SALES than conceivable !!!!!!

EDGE PRODUCTS, will the COMPETITION keep UP,or CAN they !!!!!!!!!!!!

MAC :D tongue.gif :D

[ 12-08-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]

jasonv

12-08-2002, 11:14

Thanks so much to all who took the time to share their knowledge. I appreciate the help... Looks like the Edge for me.

Jason

southpaw

12-08-2002, 12:06

What is the dealer response to these boxes as far as warranty is concerned? Do the boxes need to be removed before going to the dealership? I know of one Duramax in the Billings Mt area that broke the crankshaft and warranty was denied because it had propane injection on the engine. Will any dealers stand behind the installation of a box?

DMAXDiva

12-08-2002, 12:56

southpaw:

My motto is: when in doubt, TAKE IT OUT...I'd NEVER take my truck in to a dealer with Hot Juice hooked up; hey, what they don't know they can't deny. And by the way, I have YET to experience a single problem with the Hot version...just pure, unadulterated FUN! So, if I ever break down on the highway and am forced to have the truck towed to a dealer, the FIRST thing I'll do is pop the hood and uncork the Juice...then all I have to do is sit back and play DUMB FEMALE... tongue.gif

Works like a charm!

[ 12-08-2002: Message edited by: DMAXDiva ]

SoCalDieselNewbie

12-08-2002, 12:59

Mackin wrote - "I think the only one chasing ones tail,or will be, is you"

Actually, it is you... how many revisions of the juice box have you gone thru?

Mackin wrote - "......Point is as JK has pointed out there are individual characteristics to these tucks....."

My point exactly... You take an early build 02 and a late build 02, with identical options, and the software on the PCM will be drastically different.

Mackin wrote - "There are completely different software upgrades For EACH truck or is it mass????"

No, I mean based upon BUILD DATE... your truck would have different software FROM THE FACTORY... AND THE SOFTWARE CHANGES WITH OPTIONS...

Mackin wrote - "You mean there is NO truck out there that has the same software as mine, nor options????"

Only identical trucks built in that build period would have identical oftware to your truck.

Mackin - "You will never have to send your Power Loader back for a upgrade?????"

why would I? You just don't get it, do you? Think about your Edge box as being Netscape and the PCM programming as the operating system.

Now for the different model years and etc.... there are double digit versions of PCM software.... Or in other words... LIKE 14 operating systems.

Edge is trying to make their juice product work in conjuction with all these different operating systems. What is worse is that the options tables are different based upon options.

In contrast, a TTS REPROGRAMMED PCM is the OPERATING SYSTEM. It just has to work by itself. Isn't reliant on a different layer of software.

Mackin wrote - "They simply lock the product via VIN number,who you fooling.......??"

Really? Is that what your Edge boys are telling you every time you talk to them about getting a new version.

Funny thing, I was there when we did my truck and considering writing software paid for my truck... I had a pretty good idea of what he was doing.

1) they look up your VIN to get your software version

2) they get your options

3) takes HIS VERSION of your software and enters your options into the options table. Does the same thing for the other power levels.

4) burns your powerloader

Mackin wrote - "I suppose my truck runs faster,better, due to Leather seats and fog lights,they must of had to turn up the POWER!!!!!!There are many trucks rolling across AMERICA with the same specs as mine......."

Stop it... You are starting to make a fool out of yourself. Don't worry it is common when non-technical people try to enter into a debate regarding software lifecycling and development.

Ok brain... answer me this... If you install factory foglights on a truck that didn't have foglights, why don't they work?

Why are people paying the dealer $30 to make their lights work?

One last question for you old buddy...

How in the world didn't Edge catch that the headlights turning on would shut off a super juice truck?

How about the windshield wipers?

Is it just gross incompitance by their testing staff or is it that those probs never arose on their test truck?

It is what happens when you are trying to write a program, that is cross platform, and you are unable to test it on all the platforms.

The funny thing, I have used both... you haven't... the Juice box is a toy.

sixl

12-08-2002, 13:09

I have had the juice in my truck for 40000 miles and I have had no trouble out of any thing except tires! I dont want to send my pcm in to any one to get it flashed and then to remove it you have to send it back. BullSh** The juice has be good to me and I would not change! :D

SoCalDieselNewbie

12-08-2002, 13:14

sixl,

you are uninformed and your argument is illogical. We are talking about the powerloader..

learneth of what thy speaketh prior to putting footeth in mouth.

SoCalDieselNewbie

12-08-2002, 13:18

TO ALL FOLKS CLAIMING THAT EDGE HAS WONDERFUL CUSTOMER SERVICE....

I'll let yall have that one.

Personally, I believe that the best customer service is the on that you don't need.

Whatever, customer service EDGE WINs...

BTW, I forgot to mention all the relationships with Customer Service people that I am missing out on now that I went with the TTS product.

big dipper

12-08-2002, 13:45

For a "NEWBIE" you seem to think you know an awful lot.

pullinpower

12-08-2002, 13:49

SoCalDieselNewbie,is the PPE pcm that I have "burned in" by TTS? Have they had any revisions in programming?

DmaxMaverick

12-08-2002, 14:18

Quote:
"For a "NEWBIE" you seem to think you know an awful lot"

Sure looks that way to me.

"Learning is simple. You just have to stop talking long enough to listen. The rest is up to your ability to absorb and retain information." [quote. Don't recall where I read it]

I have been watching the power adder argument very closely, at a distance. My conclusion (read opinion), as of this time:

1. Customer service is probably the most important part of the product purchase. More importantly, you shouldn't need it. I appreciate the notion that Edge released their product early. Most of those that have it didn't want to wait for the "finished" product. The price paid for impatience. At least they are backing it up. Many don't.

2. "The Juice" is not the "end-all" for power adders. Yes. It works "as advertised".....OK, Now it does....OK, Now it does....OK, Now it does....OK, Now it does....OK, Now it does....OK, Now it does....OK, Now it does....OK, Now it does....OK, Now it does.........................

3. They are all WAY TOO COSTLY. May have to live with that one.

4. The hand held programmer is the BEST way to enhance the vehicles software. One requirement that I have is that the OEM software can be backed up, reliably, and restored if I choose to do so, as many times as I want.

5. We are all on the same team and basically have similar wants/needs. More power, less issues.

6. As soon as you buy one, the "New-Improved" model is being put on the shelf. By the time that stops, emaculate conception will have been explained, Atlantis found, all my missing socks will be returned to me....

7. "You get what you pay for" does not apply here. We are shopping for thought put into motion. We try better mouse traps every day, but still put out Decon.

8. This is not personal. It is personal preference.

9. My truck is faster than yours.

10. My Daddy can whoop your Daddy (Sorry. Had to get to 10)

OK. Back to the football games.

[on edit: The above quote was not directed at any one person. My bad for not quoting it properly]

[ 12-10-2002: Message edited by: DmaxMaverick ]

mackin

12-08-2002, 14:20

SoCalDieselNewbie

My intention are not to get into a contest with you or take anything personal so I would appreciate if you didn't either.....I don't appreciate the slander on an OPEN forum dialog......You came in the topic slinging MUD !!!!!!!!

Yes, I know that there are different software from year to year in truck age but what as far as options have to do with performance??? My 01 TCM,PCM software is the same as any 01 out there......NO???? I can get ALL current upgrades????I'm not talking whether or not my PTO has been activated or not either,like it would make a difference in prerformance.......There may be slight deviations year to year ,state to state, but I'm willing to bet EDGE ,will put a clean product out,at a decent value......What has changed performance wise in the current production years that will hinder their effort????? Bose sound system,DVD player????

So you say if our trucks were back to back off assembly line,maternal twins, I can use your POWER LOADER or do we need Identical VIN numbers???? What stops you from allowing me to use YOUR Power loader????Besides Leather interior????

I have only wanted to upgrade from one version of EDGE that I received....NOT do to a wiper ,headlight or leather seat fog light problem.....I currently do not have the most resent upgrade......

Quite frankly my whole point is I didn't trash anything nor anyone to get a point across, you on the other hand, SIR, should heed that advice......,

One does NOT have to burn the entire FACTORY PCM in order to get a reliable performance product.....A manufacturer of performance devices can and will adjust only the necessary pyrometers that deal with Transmission and Engine performance NO matter what your options are.....

I guess your point is the EDGE product is lousy and will not work without glitches????I guess you'll have to explain that to many satisfied user in all three current model years......

As I said the TTS may just be the CATS AZZ but I wouldn't trash anything to be declared a winner......You feel it's neccesary.....

Have a nice day ........Mr Cole or should I say Socalnewbie......

MAC

[ 12-08-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]

sdaver

12-08-2002, 15:10

I VOTE WE CHANGE IT FROM SOCALDIESELNEWBIE TO SOCALDIESELNOITALL............ITS ALL A MATTER OF PERSONAL CHOICE......I THINK YOU ALL KNOW WHERE I STAND.......... :D DAVE

[ 12-08-2002: Message edited by: sdaver ]

big dipper

12-08-2002, 15:12

Sure looks that way to me. Learning is simple. You just have to stop talking long enough to listen. The rest is up to your ability to absorb and retain information.

This is not personal. It is personal preference.

All in the same breath? DMAV?

I was not trying to flame, just pointing out his name. - irony!

I have had a few different power adders and I have found that I like the Juice the best. Very strong mid-range and adjustable.

I agree that changing the programs of the factory computer you can make more or for lack of better words better power. I am sure there are more variables that can be changed that way then with an add on box.

My ultimate decision for an add on would be the ability to remove it if I had to take it to the dealer. I have had version 3.0 for probably 8 months or so and finally upgraded after talking to JK. I would also like to say that last week I put down 411rwhp with a truck I just sold. I guess I must have had my mouth shut long enough to learn how to do that!

People can throw down all the good digs about something someone does or buys, but if you don't have any experience at all with it, maybe they could shutith thy mouthith and learnith.

I have never knocked anyone on this board for a mod they have done to their trucks even if I thought it was a bad idea, looked silly,........whatever. Maybe some others should show some of the same respect! :rolleyes:

Last week a guy here was asking questions about injectors and fuel rail pressure and all of a sudden he is trying to teach the class! :D

[ 12-08-2002: Message edited by: big dipper ]

GMC-2002-Dmax

12-08-2002, 17:05

SoCalDieselNewbie

I would like to know if the TTS powerloader when reflashing the PCM causes the PCM to store a date that the software was altered.

I know with a standard OS like Windows everytime a change is made to the software or a program or a file is altered the date is reflected in the "properties" of that file.

What if GM has a way to "SEE" a change in programming and upon that basis denies warranty of an engine, trans or some other driveline component!!

If your truck dies on the side of the road and gets towed in for service how do you UN-Flash it for the dealer before they get it??

I agree with DIVA - except I can't play dumb and get away with it ;) .

I have had 3 versions of the "Juice". The new HOT version I have runs well enough for me. I waited for the v3.61 to come out and was happy with that. I wanted the "HOT" version so updated to v4.30.

It had some minor quarks and when contacting Edge it was recommended that I update to v4.61 which I have now. It runs flawlessly.

IMHO I am putting as much power to the ground as I need and IMHO my stock Allison will take. For what it cost for the JUICE and it's ease of removal I would not even consider a TTS Loader at this time.

If your truck is faster so be it, if it goes thru the traps one truck length ahead of mine you can have the bragging rights. :eek: :eek: . If mine defuels I am not "KILLING MY ALLY" it's being protected for whatever that's worth.

TO QUOTE ANOTHER " TO EACH THIER OWN!!! "

Nothing personal, just my $.02 Cents smile.gif

GMC :D

P.S. EDGE is tops in customer service, all my lights work with my wipers on in L4. And my truck is a GMC not a "Chebby", and it's RED!!!!!

L8ter

mackin

12-08-2002, 17:32

EH Tony,

Last nite tonight !!!!!!
That sucks......

I read that the Diablo up and coming handheld reprogrammer WILL store stock configurtion....Not sure on the TTS,all though I am aware it loads all current GM upgrades.......When pluged in at the dealer ,if need be ,the novice will have to explain how did that happen ,if you can't restore....Yes? No?....As far as date stamps I'll leave that up to software genius like MR. Steve Cole which I am not.....But you see I know a guy who can go and download what he needs ,and ask for a fee !!!!!!! So for me to pick his ear is frivolous,for I need not know,YET......

MAC :eek:

[ 12-08-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]

Kennedy

12-08-2002, 23:25

Geez, take a day off from the forum and things go nuts. :eek:

Let's try to keep things positive...

SoCalDMAX

12-09-2002, 01:36

Aye Chihuahua! You got that right... :eek:

Each of the different boxes has it's strong points and weak points. It would be more informative if the owners of the different boxes merely gave an honest, unbiased appraisal of the box he/she owns with a little explanation of why they chose that one.

I like the Juice because it has 4 easily selectable power levels: 30, 50, 70 and 90HP, which are all measured at the rear wheels. It can be installed or removed in less than 2 min. with no tools whatsoever. I also really enjoy the great throttle response. It complements the PS2000 propane kit that I already had. The 2 together make more power than is prudent, so I'm happy where I'm at. The customer service and support from Edge is outstanding.

There are some really brilliant people out there making a variety of products. Which one you choose is obviously going to be determined by what features/strong points of each are important to you.

See? That wasn't so hard. Not a single negative comment towards anyone or any product.

So... anybody interested in a slightly used Power Plug? ;)

Regards, Steve

1822

12-09-2002, 05:38

VanAken Smart Box 2 for me. Works great and runs in the cold.

mackin

12-09-2002, 06:41

I here ya Steve but with all do respect, I would love to get mine and others Questions answered by SC, or is where the teacher becomes the NEWBIE again,as SC has stated in earlier posts.....Instead of a run around or personal attack,to win the sales of the novice......He threw first MUD at the aftermarket.......Edge wasn't the first nor will it be the last......

I totally understand the premises on a Powerloader and why it needs the list of options......You can't pick and chose when ;) .....

I myself have interest in a handheld........NOT a replacement (CORE) PCM,so all info gathered is interesting .........Negative sale tactics aren't my MUG of BEER !!!!!!! If you know what I mean......So I like to drop a dime here and there,and see what happens......

MAC ;)

hoot

12-09-2002, 09:48

I know you all want my opinion on this ;) so here goes.....

From a strictly hands off, reading the forums point of view....

The Juice has the most complaints by far and a seemlessly unending Version number. I considered getting the Juice but have since read so many posts about updates and problems that I reconsidered.

I drove a friends truck with the Juice. It stalled pulling out onto a busy highway. It wasn't as fast as my truck with only propane and his was a reg cab.

OK, they have issues.... but come on, it seems endless.

You're Welcome.

BTW: Edge must have their hands full with all the returns and reprograms.
I don't buy budget auto parts with "lifetime" warranties cause I only want to install it once.
Not saying the Juice is cheap, but getting a new one a few times a year would get kinda old.

[ 12-09-2002: Message edited by: hoot ]

MountainMax

12-09-2002, 11:34

The beauty of this whole dialog is that it shows that no matter which product you like,.. we all share a passion for these trucks to the point of getting emotional.

as far as which product,...
my grandfather used to say, "it's a good thing we all don't like the same thing cause everybody'd be after your grandma."

Newbie: no flame, just advice. This forum is known for it's dignity. If you like something say so and say why. If you don't same thing. Save the bashing of people and things for other sites. Although most members hear are civilized, they will rise to defend what they believe with a passion. Don't draw first blood. Just keep the tone civilized. I've read your posts and find you to be knowledgable. I welcome your input and opinion. Cockiness is something not needed here.

mackin

12-09-2002, 11:34

Hoot

I wasn't going to respond, but I'm home with nothing better to do, injury.....

So I might as well keep the STEW warm !!!!!!!! I didn't stick the laddle in the Kettle tho !!!!!!!

Hopefully someone will learn something about what's available,options of what's available,know that future products will be available,without negativity......

Your right, completely ......In saying that,but, it has the highest sold unit on the street compared to what is out, and been out.....Edge is trying to R&D a plug in, plug out box.......What the mass consumer really wants......They don't want a history, or service issues,while under warranty.......

Propane isn't disguised so well......Well just have to wait and see when and if a HARD BALL playing dealer gets a hold of a Powerloader, loaded truck and see what can be dug up......I wonder on this as I may be in the market for one, myself,A handheld device.......

Early Earlier boxes,fuel,had devastating problems and were shied away from......Some people are still trying to sell original bulldog controllers on ebay.....Ouch!!!!!!

The Powerloader is all or nothing,two levels, which can't be turned off,or takin off.....And as SC has said (in an earlier thread)can put his truck into limp at will, SC will probably claim with the Duramaximizer,you also state to have LIMP problems with LP......As with the HOT JUICE ,and they tell you that right up front.......

Duramaximizer seems to be an OK with the exception of comes on later then most want.......

I have now experience with Van Aaken boxes but JK and SoMndmax are putting down some numbers,stacking, with warnings tho,honest stuff.......

So what's a guy to do how want's removable,adjustable,safety orientated,Excessive POWER.......?

Wait ???? For? Will it ever be????Plug and play????

Try the product given that has shown no ill effects,return with no questions asked , while polishing the final program,which seems to be the latest one ......????..... Works for me,as with most.....

Truth is I really don't care who runs what....It's your Benny's,and your Duramax,your preferance.....Believe me when the next hottest ticket hits the street, I'll be Ebay'ing my HOT BOX.......None of this would of ever came up if Steve's advice was adhered too,time and again, right???? Jason must be luving this thread.....

Hoot,Your being missed some where...... :D :D :D :D

Peace!!!!!!

MAC smile.gif

On edit=>D/D I stand corrected,I thought they only had a one level,a two stepper,not a three...... ;)

[ 12-09-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]

DMAX Daddy

12-09-2002, 11:44

I do not have a box yet, but I am looking at the powerloader for two reasons:

1. Adjust for Speedometer error

2. The three selections of 30ish, 100ish, and 140ish HP. The lower one is improved timing only (no fuel) and will probably be my foul weather/spouse selection.

I personally do not think you can go wrong with either. Only reason I probably do not opt for the Juice is the Speedometer Recalibration option (I'm really anal on accuracy like that)

Mackin:
The Powerloaders do have the lower 30HP setting, it isnt "OFF", but its close! ;)

AzKevin

12-09-2002, 12:25

This is an apple to orange comparison.

From my point of view, it's unfair to compare a custom design with something that is mass produced for the open market. Certainly Edge has learned a great deal with the many variations in the DMax truck designs in addition to improvements in their own design. Until a design is released to the mass market it's a beta design. That is all part of the automotive supply process.

On the otherhand, having someone tweak a program/design for a few specific trucks is a trial and error process (aka garage shop) that would need to employ all of SoCal when scaled to the mass market. And if the custom designer is claiming to have optimal power for each vehicle then he needs to tweak the design even more. Said another way, release a custom design to the mass market and the custom design will be humbled.

AzKevin

12-09-2002, 12:32

hoot,

You must not work around/with software to be surprised by "endless version numbers." tongue.gif

Kennedy

12-09-2002, 12:47

FWIW, I've always been told that the Power Loaders (all of which originate from Steve Cole at TTS Power Systems) have 20, 80, and 120 HP settings, AND have seen it posted this way by Steve himself. Not sure where all of the other numbers are coming from :confused: but I'd say Steve's are a lot more accurate.

GMC D-Max

12-09-2002, 13:19

OK, I've been watching the add-on/reflash wars for a while, now, and I'm just waiting for the right time to make a move. I've got a (non-HOT)Juice, and it's been completely trouble free. In short, I like it except for the inconvenient method of level selection (which Edge is supposedly working on, primarily for the gear-jammer guys). I like the advantages of the pcm reflash (axed speed limiter, tire size re-cal, and raised rev limiter), but what's the bottom line? What's their track record, so far, and why do prices vary so dang much considering they're all the same thing, from the same guy? PPE used to advertise the PCM reflash for $895 (the 3-level programming), now it's $1495, and the Programmer is $895? What gives? I suppose getting the hand programmer is the better way to go, but is it really worth that much money? And is updated software going to be readily available with no additional cash outlay?

I'll either a) upgrade to the HOT Juice once the levels can be changed "on-the-fly", or b) get a reflash/programmer, and keep my regular Juice (to possibly stack if the fancy strikes).

Any informed/experienced opinions?

DMAX Daddy

12-09-2002, 13:38

JK:
I think Steve's numbers are rear wheel horsepower, where the others are giving estimated horsepower gains at the engine to make it seem like a larger HP increase for the money.

GMC D-Max:
-$1495 is them sending you an ECM core and you keep your original core

-$895 is for you sending them your core to them to reprogram OR $895 is also for the handheld to load the three levels (20, 80, or 120) yourself

-$695 is a handhled to load only 1 level (20, 80, or 120)

Confused yet?? :rolleyes:

hoot

12-09-2002, 14:08

AzKevin,

I'm on computers more than I'm awake. A little balloon just popped up in my lower right hand corner stating "New Updates Available for Download" Microsoft is the worst with Edge coming in a close second ;)

Mackin,

I had to get away from GM-Diesel.... Too much rehashing and nastiness. I was a part of it but had to do something about myself.

Good to see everyone is back to productive discussion on this thread. (Did I say Thaaaaaat?) Remember Steve Erkle.

JK said it many times before. These trucks come in all flavors even though they are the same model. Plays hell with the developers. Real hot rodders have to custom tweak their machines not only after they build it but sometimes before every run.

I look at it like this. If the module or program has got no major problems like shutdowns and it performs well, it's worth it. Like my truck. I get powerdowns with propane when others with the same year truck and propane don't get powerdowns. This is a pain too.

I don't have time to be playing with it all the time right now. I got hydraulic lines to put in my Ford diesel. Darn thing blew a line right before the snow.

Allison Jettester

12-09-2002, 14:09

OK, I guess I'll chime in. I bought the original Juice with 3.0 version last Spring. Never have I experienced such a power gain from so little money or work. I did have a little bit of the fish-bite going up a hill at 55, so I just didn't drive there. I was going to upgrade when the next version came out, but by info on this forum, found that the power didn't come on off the line like the 3.0 did. So I sat on the fence and let Mackin, JK and others do the testing :D :D (Sorry Mack, John and others). With everybodies good testing it seemed 4.61 was the best version. It seems to be perfect with as much power as I would like to feed the Allison.

The best part was that I sent the box to Edge, after contacting Aaron, last Mon. afternoon, and I got a new box at my house Wed. at noon. That's right--a NEW box. He didn't reflash the old one. I have never been more pleased with a product or service in my life--Thanks, Aaron--and to all you guys that did the testing

Joe

sdaver

12-09-2002, 14:16

YOU MIGHT WANT TO QUALIFY "where the others" STATEMENT. THERE ARE SOME GOOD BOXES WITH VERIFIED NUMBERS....... :D DAVE

schnier

12-09-2002, 14:27

I guess I will let my .02cents go here.
Started with a Duramaximizer for two weeks and incurred a fuel rail leak in my 2001. Sold it on e-bay.
Second was a juice 4.61, but would not confirm settings even on the phone with the tech.
Third was a second 4.61 juice and had a timing spike you could hear in the motor. Still would not confirm. Sent it back.
Fourth was a Van Akin box and incurred a fuel leak in the second common rail. Sent it back.
I have had the dealer replace both common rails under warranty (very nice).
Now I would like to try a programmer that is loadable and unloadable to see if this is in fact error free. I miss the short power I had on all these boxes. Hopefully in the spring these will be out in this configuration to see if we can get a direct hit on aftermarket progress.
Been there, done that.

DMAX Daddy

12-09-2002, 16:20

My "where the others" was referencing TS Performance (30, 80, 120) and Pacific Performance (40, 112, 168).

Im not going to argue who's box does what, but I believe that since Steve Cole at TTS is making all the handhelds, they should all be (20, 80, 120)

Mic

12-09-2002, 18:40

Juice Box...for those interested.....currently $355 :eek:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1874093462

pullinpower

12-09-2002, 20:01

Has anyone tried a juice box on a modded pcm truck? I had alli-max's on my truck for alittle while until I broke my shaft on my steering pump and it was muddy so I couldnt get a real feel in differance in power.Maybe I should put a juice box on it to see how it will run with all 3 power adders. What do you think jk,will everything be happy in the engine if I done this?

[ 12-09-2002: Message edited by: pullinpower ]

Kennedy

12-09-2002, 22:41

I tried on the dyno and lost HP over my best 2 box combo. Some programs just do not mix. Timing has a LOT to do with it!

SoCalDieselNewbie

12-10-2002, 13:54

MACKIN WROTE - "My intention are not to get into a contest with you or take anything personal so I would appreciate if you didn't either.....I don't appreciate the slander on an OPEN forum dialog......You came in the topic slinging MUD !"

Really I did?

Funny thing here... I gave a personal opinion based upon MY FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE.

I am a frugal man by nature and I rarely spend money with investing some effort in research.

If you tell me that you do not believe that the reliability of a product is a viable point of discussion with ANY PRODUCT... You'd be lying or a moron.

If people didn't care about reliability we'd all be driving some communist made tuna can.

RELIABLITY IS AN ISSUE AND IT IS ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT TURNED MY CHOICE AWAY FROM THE JUICE BOX.

That is as simple as I can put it...

MACKIN WROTE - "One does NOT have to burn the entire FACTORY PCM in order to get a reliable performance product.....A manufacturer of performance devices can and will adjust only the necessary pyrometers that deal with Transmission and Engine performance NO matter what your options are....."

First I believe that you meant PARAMETERS and not pyrometers.

Second, if it isn't necessary to burn a PCM to get a reliable product that works all the time....

Why is EDGE pumping out revisions like they are going out of style?

You would have to think that they spent some time on testing... Wouldn't you?

Oh yea is right... I remember now... As JK said, "these trucks are individuals"

I agree with JK... IT IS BECAUSE OF THE SOFTWARE ON THE PCM.

MACKIN WROTE - "Have a nice day ........Mr Cole or should I say Socalnewbie......"

I'll pause right now so you can redose you medication.

I have met Steve Cole... I watched Steve Cole do my truck... I picked Steve Cole's brain regarding the D-MAX programming and PCM.

However, Mackin, I am not Steve Cole...

First of all, Steve Cole is a good for nothing Trojan, well good for nothing other than making sh*t go fast, and well I am a Bruin.

Second, I'd say that Cole has about 10 years on me easy... I am in my 30s.

Lastly, while we both did DOD work, my specialty was FLIGHT CONTROLLERS... specifically designing flight controllers for Attack Helicopters.

Oh yea, if my work wasn't reliable, bug hunks of metal, worth millions of dollars, fall out of the sky and people die.

MACKIN WROTE - "I here ya Steve but with all do respect, I would love to get mine and others Questions answered by SC, or is where the teacher becomes the NEWBIE again,as SC has stated in earlier posts....."

No Mackin, I am still a teacher at heart considering that I had to teach during my post graduate degree in EE.

See Mack ol buddy... I know IC design... I know Software... I know about testing...

And well the University of California @ Los Angeles thought I was qualified enough to teach their undergraduate classes on the subject.

Since I doubt that you would gain admittance to the institution, it is for them there brainy kids, I'll try to keep it simple.

Ok?

BIG DIPPER WROTE - "Last week a guy here was asking questions about injectors and fuel rail pressure and all of a sudden he is trying to teach the class!"

Actually, I wasn't asking... I was telling... From past experience building gassers and from talking to everyone that I can under the sun about DIESEL PERFORMANCE... I think I have learned enough to formulate my own rather intelligent opinions.

MACKIN WROTE - "Hopefully someone will learn something about what's available,options of what's available,know that future products will be available,without negativity."

Negativity? I am merely pointing out what I believe are flaws in their design and their goal.

I expect a vehicle that is as reliable with the power adder attached and running... as it is without the poweradder...

Quite frankly, I think that others do too...

MACKIN WROTE - "In saying that,but, it has the highest sold unit on the street compared to what is out, and been out."

Does that mean it is a better product than everything out there or has been marketed better?

Alot of people bought Pinto, Gremlins and Pacers... does that mean that they are better than a car that did less volume?

MACKIN WROTE - "Edge is trying to R&D a plug in, plug out box."

Trying to R&D? Their box has been on the market for how long now?

Are they paying all your postage?

Are they prorating the cost of the box for downtime?

I truly am not trying to play devil's advocate here but THEY HAD TO SPEND SOME TIME TESTING THIS PRODUCT. Why all the revisions?

MACKIN WROTE - "What the mass consumer really wants...They don't want a history, or service issues,while under warranty..."

Wow, I thought that most people would want reliability... So are you saying that most people are just looking for a toy?

GMC-2002-DMAX WROTE - "I would like to know if the TTS powerloader when reflashing the PCM causes the PCM to store a date that the software was altered."

GMC, from what I understand... the only thing that is exposed after a PCM reflash is the parameters needed by a TECH 2.

GMC-2002-DMAX WROTE - "I know with a standard OS like Windows everytime a change is made to the software or a program or a file is altered the date is reflected in the "properties" of that file."

This is just a binary instruction set that resides on a PROM.

It is not an operating system.

GMC-2002-DMAX WROTE - "What if GM has a way to "SEE" a change in programming and upon that basis denies warranty of an engine, trans or some other driveline component!!"

They can't see a darn thing...

GMC-2002-DMAX WROTE - "If your truck dies on the side of the road and gets towed in for service how do you UN-Flash it for the dealer before they get it?"

Why would I unflash it? They can't tell that a darn thing has changed.

In conclusion, it is only natural for people to defend their choices... I find it unusual that anybody could say '__________ is the BEST!' when that is the only product that they tried.

It is like the guy that marries the 1st woman that he has ever had sex with claiming that "She is absolutely great in bed" Really, how does he know? He has nothing to compare it to.

So how do you deal with a group of people that think "my wife is the best in bed" when they haven't slept with anyone else yet...

Well, you start asking questions...

Will she do this?

Does she do that?

She won't do this or that?

You look for flaws... Well that is wierd, most women will do this or that... and etc...

So quite frankly, it isn't mudslinging... it is trying to describe why 1 is better than the other without anybody having tried anything else.

GMC D-Max

12-10-2002, 14:08

Geez! Lighten up already! :rolleyes:

sdaver

12-10-2002, 14:25

HEY SOCOLESBOYNOITALL THEY SELL XANAX OUT IN SUNNY CAL?........YOU SHOULD GET SOME......OR DROP IN DOWN HERE AND ILL TAKE YOU TO THE GOGO FOR FEMINE THERAPY(THE BUSTY KIND)IT SEEMS YOUR A LITTLE TENSE AND ANAL TOO!......COME SEE US YA HERE.... :D DAVE

car of the week

12-10-2002, 14:38

SOCALNEWBIE-

I'M SORRY MAN, YOU ARE JUST SO ACCUSATORY.(SPELLING?) YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE NOT TAKING IT PERSONALLY, BUY YOUR POSTS SPEAK OTHERWISE. READING THROUGH YOUR POST MAY HELP YOU UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE REACTING THE WAY THEY ARE. PEOPLE DON'T AGREE SOMETIMES BUT THAT IS WHAT MAKES THE WORLD GO 'ROUND...TAKE IT EEEEEAAASSSYYY

RYAN

SoCalDMAX

12-10-2002, 15:43

SCDN,

Your last post brought up some interesting points, amongst all of the other stuff.

The reason your 1st post looked like you were mudslinging to me (and possibly others) was you were pointing out flaws in the Juice module while ignoring flaws in the units you're touting. I have no vested interest in any mfr, but the way you came out swinging, it certainly looked like you had/have an agenda.

I've never before heard of a Juice module shutting down when headlights are turned on. If you say it happened to you, I believe you. Mine has stalled 3 times since I've had it. I'm not enthused about that, but it's so insignificant, I'm not about to box it up and send it back. I've never sent mine back for an update.

If you'd been even-handed and mentioned that the PCM reflash needs to get reflashed again every time the dealer updates the ECM, it might not have looked like an all out assault on Edge products. If the dealer doesn't see what was in the ECM when it gets downloaded, why must it get reflashed again afterwards? I realize the dealer doesn't have the tools to "see" the changes to the binary code, but the checksum is what they bounce against the current update list. Are you saying that the ECM code changed by a TTS reflash is not used to calculate the checksum? I find it hard to believe. If the checksum is changed, how does the owner explain that the checksum doesn't match any known release by GM? Is the programmer able to store the factory file and reload it later? Last I heard, it wasn't an option.

I didn't see you mention the options one has to get the reflash.

1. Buy another ECM for $800. Pay $900 for the reflash. Mail it in. Install it when it gets back.

2. Remove the ECM from your truck and mail it in. Drive something else for a week until it gets back.

3. Pay $1500 for a complete reflashed ECM. Install it.

4. Buy a programmer with a single program for $700. Mail it back whenever new updates come out. And make sure no electrical loads come on while doing the reflash, or it might get zorched.

5. Buy a programmer with 3 levels for $900, same drawbacks as above.

6. Buy a Maximizer and 3 level programmer for $1640, now we're getting into "serious money". Did we mention, the 168hp gains were estimated crank hp with the reflash and Maximizer?

7. Buy a flashed ECM and Maximizer for $2,440. Now we're DEEP into "serious money" territory.

Why didn't you mention all of the Duramaximizers returned for running weird when it rains, or the windshield washers are turned on? Or the fuel rail leaks or shuddering? The fact is, nobody makes a perfect product and ALL of the different boxes have had some sent back for defects, design flaws, incompatibilities or who knows what. Did you notice the Maximizer comes in a cast aluminum box now, vs the plastic box the original ones came in? All of the mfrs are making running changes, and guess what, if you want the benefit of the updates, you're gonna have to send ALL of them back.

I have no doubts of the knowledge and programming prowess of Steve Cole. I met and talked with him for a few hrs. He's VERY knowledgable and I'm sure he only told me a mere fraction of what he knows. I saw the dyno sheets for one of the trucks he did, and the towing and race HP/Torque curves were fantastic, IMHO exactly what we would want for those situations. I didn't see one run on the dyno, but according to him, smoke levels were very low in both instances and EGTs were fine in tow mode. I do agree, with access to the lookup tables (or whatever) in the ECM, far more parameters can be used for better control *theoretically* - than an add on box.

What do you suggest for those who live too far to drive to PPE? You got personalized programming, which is wonderful (that's awesome service, no doubt) but it's not practical for a lot of people.

Please remember, as time goes on, ALL of the mfrs are learning more of what's going on in the ECM and we're all getting the benefit of that knowledge. You look at updates from Edge as a shortcoming. I see it as outstanding customer service, where they listen to EACH individual customer and try to make EVERYONE happy. I'll be the first to admit that's actually impossible, but I'll give them an A+ for trying. Try calling Microsoft and mention a few little "bugs" you'd like to have them fix (I'd settle for eliminating the BSOD ;) ) and then listen for the laughter all the way from Redmond, WA.

As Steve Cole said to me, (paraphrasing here) "I can adjust shift firmness to what most people would say is nice and firm but not too harsh. Someone else will think it's too soft, another still will think it's too harsh. It's all a matter of preference."

Just as one's choice of boxes... I'll promise to be even-handed about yours if you promise to be even-handed about mine... ;)

Regards, Steve

NoMo

12-10-2002, 15:50

SoCalDieselNewbie or anyone that has first-hand knowledge of these products...

For those of us who are still undecided, could you compare & contrast these upgrades in more detail? This is the first I've heard of a real PCM reprogram vs the plug-in signal interceptor.

If you'd like to do this off-line to avoid the flames, just let me know.

Thanks.

[ 12-10-2002: Message edited by: NoMo ]

SoCalDieselNewbie

12-10-2002, 16:29

CAR OF THE WEEK WROTE - "I'M SORRY MAN, YOU ARE JUST SO ACCUSATORY.(SPELLING?)"

I am not so sure about making accusations...

If I was making an accusation it would be something along the lines of "I can't see why anybody in their right mind would by a Banks Big Head Wastegate for their Ford when the PSI is computer controlled?"

I prefer observations...

CAR OF THE WEEK WROTE - "YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE NOT TAKING IT PERSONALLY, BUY YOUR POSTS SPEAK OTHERWISE."

I never said I wasn't taking it personally. I could careless what type box you chose.

However, I do not take lightly to what Mackin has done in this thread and a few others.

I am more than qualified to offer an educated opinion on the integration of a multiple cpu vehicle controller with an intercept box and the effects that changes in the instruction set would have on that intercept box.

CAR OF THE WEEK WROTE - "READING THROUGH YOUR POST MAY HELP YOU UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE REACTING THE WAY THEY ARE."

This site, more than most, is so product baised it is rather incredible.

Again, how someone, who has used nothing else, can claim that what they are using is best.... IS JUST UTTERLY AMAZING.

CAR OF THE WEEK WROTE - "PEOPLE DON'T AGREE SOMETIMES BUT THAT IS WHAT MAKES THE WORLD GO 'ROUND...TAKE IT EEEEEAAASSSYYY"

I agree... Have a good Holidays Bro...

SDAVER,

Thanks for the invitation to the gentleman's club... At this point, I'll respectfully decline. I already got me a little 22 yr old hottie that eases my tensions.

why do you people think it took so long to respond after the 1st few posts.

SOCALDMAX WROTE - "I'll promise to be even-handed about yours if you promise to be even-handed about mine..."

That is about the MOST HONEST EVALUATION OF AN AFTERMARKET PRODUCT that I have ever seen on this board. Well besides mine....

There are Pros and Cons to EVERY PRODUCT. Pretending that there isn't any... is childish.

Why would I ever want to discourage someone from expressing their opinion that was formed from their experience?

As for a few of your questions, I'll try to answer them... I am just a f'ing Newbie for all intent & purpose...

SOCAL WROTE - "What do you suggest for those who live too far to drive to PPE?"

They have come up with this wonderful invention known as the phone... You might have heard of it? :D

SOCAL WROTE - "You got personalized programming, which is wonderful (that's awesome service, no doubt) but it's not practical for a lot of people."

Actually, I did NOT receive custom programming... I think this is where alot of people are mistaken.

The request every thrucks VIN for 3 reasons... 1) to look up the software in that truck 2) an options settings list and 3) to lock the loader.

Every truck receives the same "CUSTOM PROGRAMMING".

By the way, you pricing seems way wierd... $900 gets you the Powerloader, the 3 programs and the setting dial.

Quite a good value, I might add.

BTW, I'd recheck some of your HP numbers... consider I got more than 168 RWHP from the Race setting on the PCM & a duramaximixer...

I believe PPE's numbers are PCM ONLY @ the Crank.... Whatever...

[ 12-10-2002: Message edited by: SoCalDieselNewbie ]

car of the week

12-10-2002, 16:54

"you are uninformed and your argument is illogical. We are talking about the powerloader..

learneth of what thy speaketh prior to putting footeth in mouth"

NOW SOCALNEWBIE, THAT IS JUST MEAN, YOU GO ON DEGRADING PEOPLE FOR NO REASON. THIS GUY WAS JUST PUTTING HIS .02 CENTS IN ON THE TOPIC. BTW, THANK FOR DISECTING MY POST AND TELLING ME HOW YOU FEEL ON EACH OF MY SENTENCES...

Kennedy

12-10-2002, 16:55

"Did we mention, the 168hp gains were estimated crank hp with the reflash and Maximizer?"

THANK YOU, I've been waiting for someone to point that out! All the varying claims for the same basic program :rolleyes:

Now there are cases where one reserves the right to disclose the mfr. of the product, but all of this relabeling is just making a mess out of it that even I get confused about some times.

It's also frustrating to have to explain why a box with a higher HP rating makes LESS power on the dyno or turns in slower times at the track. A lot of people don't understand that you do not automatically lose a fixed percentage through the drivetrain. I believe that it is actually a fixed number (say 60HP) with a small percentage of additional loss as the numbers rack up and the loads increase. In other words, just because you lose 20% at 300 doesn't necessarily mean you will lose 20% at 500 HP unless G.W.B. is doing your calculations :D

So Cal Steve also had a good point about the fact that there is NO perfect box out there yet, and while some have had more publicity about their bugs, one also has to look at total number of units sold...

SoCalDMAX

12-10-2002, 17:02

SCDN wrote: "They have come up with this wonderful invention known as the phone... You might have heard of it? ;) "

I've never heard of it, but every once in a while may a$$ starts ringing... ;) Seriously, don't you ever wonder if Steve has learned something new since when you bought it and you just haven't heard?

SCDN wrote: "Actually, I did NOT receive custom programming... I think this is where alot of people are mistaken."

My mistake. I know Steve had told me he's done it for a number of customers, just got the impression yours was as well.

SCDN wrote: "The request every thrucks VIN for 3 reasons... 1) to look up the software in that truck 2) an options settings list and 3) to lock the loader."

So this will prevent you from ever selling the unit to another party in the future. Resale value is effectively $0.

SCDN wrote: "Every truck receives the same "CUSTOM PROGRAMMING"."

Come on, I may look like a Re Todd, but I swear I'm not. (I suppose that's better than looking smarter than one is... ;) ) It can't be "custom" if it's all the same...

SCDN wrote: "By the way, you pricing seems way wierd... $900 gets you the Powerloader, the 3 programs and the setting dial."

I got the pricing straight off their website. $900 is what I quoted for the 3 level programmer. Don't you have the programmer and Maximizer combo? That's a lot of dials to be fiddling with while you're driving, not to mention talking on the phone at the same time. ;) (All of us in SoCal ar driving while talking, it seems...)

SCDN wrote: "Quite a good value, I might add."

I dunno... the $355 used Juice on Ebay looks pretty tempting. Send it in for update to Hot status for $300 and you're at 125hp for a mere $655. J/K! Who knows what price that thing will end up at.

SCDN wrote: "I already got me a little 22 yr old hottie that eases my tensions."

Which model is this? How expensive is this version?? Does she have any sisters? NOW you have my full attention...

I definitely agree with ya, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and choice. Or we'd all be after MountainMax's Grandma.

Regards, Steve

pinehill

12-10-2002, 17:04

SoCalDieselNewbie,

You, having been a technical person in an Aerospace industry, must have forgotten that the way in which an idea, a concept, or a position is presented has as much influence on how well it is accepted by a group as does its intrinsic merit. Knowing and accommodating the "culture" of your audience is also very important.

If your objective in these posts was merely to stir the TDP pot, congratulations, you succeeded admirably. If, on the other hand, you wished to impart knowledge or sway others to adopt your position, well.......
I would guess that those on the list who have harbored negative feelings about engineers are feeling vindicated. Pity.

Treating your fellow list members with respect and sensitivity will always be more effective.

pinehill
(former engineer and Aerospace Programs Director at an aerospace silicon foundry)

sdaver

12-10-2002, 17:06

:D :D :D :D :D OH NEWBIE YOU KILL ME :D :D GREAT POST STEVE(SOCALDMAX) :D DAVE

mackin

12-10-2002, 17:20

Socalnewbie

Wrote:
"However, I do not take lightly to what Mackin has done in this thread and a few others."
======================================

Socalnewbie=> Do you have some sort of personal agenda here, with me ??????????I'll keep that in mind in my future posts.......Seems to me that you come off quite arrogant,not only in this thread but others.....I won't stoop to your personal attacks.....

I personally may be reading more from your posts as far as you being a NEWBIE.....
=========================================
You wrote:11-06-2002 04:33 PM
I am definitely NOT a diesel expert but it would seems to me, simpleton that I am, that a guy would be MUCH BETTER served having a torquier lower rpm range than the "HOT Juice" offers.

:However, again I admit that I am a diesel simpleton, I believe that WHERE you reach max torque and HOW LONG you hold it is more important than HOW HIGH is your peak torque.
============================
Socalnewbie=> Also somewhere buried in that thread you said that this was an Edge Juice Forum.......For some reason I never entertained myself with your posting as I felt something just isn't right....Go back and see... I stayed away for just some reason,not sure why,I have this feeling that your here for promoting or your a troll.....So for some reason your here not to learn or share as others are, but to get something accomplished,good luck ,hopefully the administrators will see thru you like I am....This thread made me believe my suspicions,totaly....See ya on the next go round,if your still here.....At least I know where you stand,SIR......
====================================
Socalnewbie=> In closing I'm done with this thread.....My point is this....All of this came from someone who on=>11-13-2002 03:21 PM

--------------------

SoCalDieselNewbieWrote:

DMaxin,

Please do not take this the wrong way but hanging around this site can make a person "need" something that he really only wants and doesn't really need.

The stock truck is great. It is fast. It has power.

My recomendation for a box for your truck... None.

Why? because of what you wrote... "Also what kinda added wear, if any, do you think is put on the engine by raising the power that much? I have to keep my truck for a long time and dont want to hurt anything."

You will see 10 posts below mine stating that I am wrong but I'll say it anyway... If you want to maintain the life expectancy of the engine, don't mess with it.

I subscribe to the "nothing is free" theory so to me that additional power has to cost you something.
===================================
=>http://forum.62-65-dieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=004507&p=

Read the whole thread...Appears to me you have no MOD interest,longevity is your concern......Now your a Know it all.....You sure have been doing a whole lot of Hot rodding and formed one opinionated opinion in a short period......Please tell us why your here??????

MAC

HHHMMMMM!!!!!!?????

[ 12-10-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]

imported_

12-10-2002, 18:17

The opinions of the end users and their respective products are their own...freedoms of speech and choice in this land socal. just try to remember that... this is meant to be an information forum... you had your 15 minutes in your first post..... try to be constructive.
tongue.gif

SoCalDieselNewbie

12-10-2002, 18:25

MACKIN,

Get a clue...

The guy set forth a few criteria for which he was concerned... NAMELY HOW A BOX WOULD EFFECT THE LONGEVITY OF HIS VEHICLE.

Have you tested the difference in engine longevity between a Hot-Rodded D-Max and an UN-TOUCHED DMax under similar driving?

Do you know anybody that has conducted such a study?

I do not. In which case, I preach prudence.

The guy just spent 40K on his truck... My conscience doesn't allow me to push any product whose effects are UNKNOWN.

Speaking of UNKNOWN.... Did you pay full retail for your Juice box?

Anyway, why don't you follow your own advice... READ MY POSTS AND THE THREAD...

Oh yea, please notice the post where I set up a race w/ a super juiced Truck...

Lol... Btw, the quote that you accuse me of making... Is me quoting the original poster... :rolleyes:

Mackin, you amuse me...

PS. Here is the post in question... It quite clearly exposes you attempt to miss quote me...
-------------------------------------------------
DMaxin,

Please do not take this the wrong way but hanging around this site can make a person "need" something that he really only wants and doesn't really need.

The stock truck is great. It is fast. It has power.

My recomendation for a box for your truck... None.

Why? because of what you wrote... "Also what kinda added wear, if any, do you think is put on the engine by raising the power that much? I have to keep my truck for a long time and dont want to hurt anything."

You will see 10 posts below mine stating that I am wrong but I'll say it anyway... If you want to maintain the life expectancy of the engine, don't mess with it.

I subscribe to the "nothing is free" theory so to me that additional power has to cost you something.

--------------------

2002 Chevrolet 3500 4x4 Crew Cab LT w/ Duramax & Allison in Charcoal Grey with custom Mud Accents
--------------------------------------------------

SoCalDieselNewbie

12-10-2002, 18:31

MAD MAX...

You are quite funny... I mean d*mn funny...

Look at what you just wrote and then read the thread... The irony is INCREDIBLE!

I have been told by NUMEROUS PEOPLE in this thread, that I should not be able to express my opinion of a product.

Toddster

12-10-2002, 18:45

This thread made for some great reading till the RE TODD thing ! Socaldmax and I have a real problem here ! Good thing for you, you live so far away pal ! :mad: .......LOL !

GM Smitty

12-10-2002, 18:50

Now that's funny! :D

sdaver

12-10-2002, 18:57

I THINK THAT YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO VOICE YOUR(SCDN) OPINION CONSTRUCTIVELY..........IVE BEEN KINDA HARD ON YOU AT TIMES IT WAS MOSTLY POKING FUN. SEE LOTSA IRONY IN YOUR POST. THE POINT I THINK MOST ARE TRYING TO MAKE IS YOU REALLY DONT HAVE TO MAKE OTHERS LOOK BAD TO MAKE YOUR OPINIONS LOOK GOOD.....A LITTLE POKE HERE AND THERE IS FUN BUT SLAMING SOMEONE ELSE'S OPINION BECAUSE ITS NOT YOUR ON IS A LITTLE HARSH.....IVE BECOME ADDICTED TO THIS SITE.....EVERYONE HERE HAS THEIR OWN AGGENDAS AND I DO ENJOY READING THEM......HEY WE COULD ALL BE IN IRAQ OR AFGANISTAN BRAGGING ABOUT THE SIZE OF OUR CAMELS HUMP..........TRUTHFULLY I THINK SOCADMAX PROBABLY SETS THE STANDARD FOR THE BEST POST...HOPEFULLY ILL BE THERE ONE DAY......UNTIL THEN HEY NEWBIE DID YOU TAKE THE LITES OFF YOUR TRUCK OR WHAT :D DAVE

[ 12-10-2002: Message edited by: sdaver ]

[ 12-10-2002: Message edited by: sdaver ]

big dipper

12-10-2002, 19:00

Steve! :D

Grandma thing is killing me!!!!!!!!!!
And don't think I forgot about the 22yr. old either. :rolleyes:

Sorry I forgot to ask, where did he say he offered to race a hot juiced max? I wish I lived closer.

[ 12-10-2002: Message edited by: big dipper ]

Maverick

12-10-2002, 19:06

Well I might as well get in here.
I'll probably get in trouble but....

Hey NEWBIE BOY.....all you had to say was you don't like the Juice Box and shut up. I think I speak for quite a few here and feel you have out did your welcome. Go to the Ford page where you belong.

[ 12-10-2002: Message edited by: Maverick ]

NoMo

12-10-2002, 19:18

I'm lost...

A guy gives his (unfavorable) opinion of a product and gets flamed- even accused of having a hidden agenda- because his opinion is different than that of the "majority". Then, once he has been somewhat successful in defending his opinion, he's flamed again for not respecting the opinions of others?

Sure thought you guys were more mature than the PSD guys... guess I was wrong. :(

ram/tx

12-10-2002, 19:32

This guy would make a good Large Mouth Bass Fisherman, just look he has trolled the whole lake and caught over 50 of you. Don't reply to his posts and he won't be able to fish anymore. :D :D

AzKevin

12-10-2002, 19:34

I feel the need for levity...

We haven't heard any thump-thump jokes lately.

How about words of wisdom from Dr Phil?

This thread could be the Ford forum equivalent to... "Anyone want to race a Duramax?"

[ 12-10-2002: Message edited by: AzKevin ]

car of the week

12-10-2002, 19:35

NOMO-

YOU DIDN'T THINK SOCALNEWBIE WAS BEING A LITTLE INCONSIDERATE AT TIMES? HIS INFO COULD BE CORRECT, I AM NOT SURE BECAUSE I HAVE NO EXPIRENCE WITH THE POWERLOADER, BUT THE WAY HE COMES ACROSS JUST RUBS ME (AND APPARENTLY A FEW OTHER PEOPLE) THE WRONG WAY. EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO HIS/HER OPINION BUT TO FORCE ONES OPINION ONTO OTHERS IS JUST RIGHT. THEN TO PLAY "WHOLLIER THAN THOUGH" AND TELL SOMEONE WHY THERE OPINION IS THE WRONG ONE IS OVER THE EDGE...

JUST MY THOUGHTS ON THE SITUATION AT HAND, SURE MADE MY AFTERNOON EXCITING ;)

RYAN

Maverick

12-10-2002, 19:54

Nobody's flaming him for having an opinion. Everyone here has one. He's getting flamed because his CD player is set on REPEAT and we all heard the song the first time around. Someone needs to take his ignition keys away.

SoCalDieselNewbie

12-10-2002, 20:03

MAVERICK...

NEWBIE BOY?

Yea, I am the one starting sh*t on this site, right?

SoCalDieselNewbie

12-10-2002, 20:09

NoMo,

Ironic isn't it?

Now I am being told that I rub people the wrong way or I am inconsiderate in making my point...

Funny, I recall being told lets see...

Hmmm, that I would be the one chasing my tail...

that the newbie is playing teacher...

and now, I have one clown calling me "Boy"

should I continue?

[ 12-10-2002: Message edited by: SoCalDieselNewbie ]

sdaver

12-10-2002, 20:10

HE MAV......I THINK YOU FOUND A CHINK IN HIS ARMOR :D DAVE

NoMo

12-10-2002, 20:17

I've read and re-read the thread and it seems to me that 'Newbie merely defended his opinion with the vigor with which others attacked. His worst mistake was responding to the personal attack on his character with an attack of his own. It would have been much better to stick to the facts and leave the name-calling out of the debate.

The sad part is that 'Newbie is the only one being flamed for the personal attacks. One can only garner that the reason for this is his differing opinion on the quality of "the juice". Leads a new member such as myself to keep quiet and not "rock the boat" with any kind of new thought-provoking ideas or suggestions. Hmmm... guess I'm not really being all that quiet am I? ;)

trout49

12-10-2002, 20:19

I think Maverick said it all, and he only used a few lines!! Now lets move on.

NoMo

12-10-2002, 20:24

BTW, now that it's settled that everyone has an opinion and they are welcome to it, can we get back to a FACTUAL comparison of these products?

Some real info on issues (positive and negative) with all three products would be extremely helpful to us really new guys. :cool:

Kennedy

12-10-2002, 20:29

WOW, 77 posts and growing! Less than 25% of them are worth reading which is pretty bad considering a lot of them require scrolling to be read in their entirety. :eek:

Anyhow, this is pretty typical of the approaching Holiday season. Not the first time and definitely not the last.

Let's hope this one gets locked down soon...

BTW, I bet I read less than 50% of them, but doubt I missed anything of REAL value :rolleyes:

GM Smitty

12-10-2002, 20:32

Alright. I got the Juice from JK (version 3.6) and have used it for about 10,000 miles now. I do not have one complaint. Installed very easy, uninstalls very easy (for the dreaded trip to the dealer), and absolutley makes this truck haul a**! I am debating sending it back for the update to 4.6 because of the great things said about it, but when she's running so great, why bother? Hot Juice is tempting me...can't hold out much longer....must have more speed.....

Josh

SoCalDieselNewbie

12-10-2002, 20:33

KENNEDY,

Speaking of substance... Was that my dyno sheet that got faxed to you?

Anyhow, did you ever get those Futomo nipple valves in? You still owe me one.

Fat Boy

12-10-2002, 20:39

Let me preface this by saying that I am a long-time member of the DP. I have no personal or political agendas. I do not own a D-Max, nor have I ever even driven one. I don't stand to benefit in any way from who buys what from whom and why. I do have a genuine interest in this thread as I will likely purchase a Duramax if GM ever pulls its head from its rectum and puts it in a Suburban.

Mackin and SoCalDieselNewbie... Grow up. I was genuinely interested in this topic until the two of you started your little junior high pi$$ing contest... Don't you two have anything better to do than this?

Mackin... It's pretty obvious that you have a personal beef with SCDN. His handle says "Newbie". That doesn't mean "idiot". Just because he once said he's not all that knowledgeable on the subject doesn't mean he can't pick it up pretty fast, especially considering the wealth of knowledge available on this fine website. It can turn the "newbie" into a very knowledgeable contributor in a hurry. Maybe SCDN has something to contribute... Maybe he doesn't... You'll probably never know because every post is taken as a personal attack on you. So he doesn't like the Juice! So what?! Do you? Tell us why. We don't give a $hit how you feel about SCDN... It certainly doesn't help me decide which truck to buy, or what add-ons to put on it.

SCDN... It's also pretty obvious that you're doing everything you can to egg Mackin on. How very adult. You don't like Mackin... We get it. We just don't care. You don't like the Juice. We get that, too. Believe it or not, many of us appreciate what information you've posted on the benifits and drawbacks some of the power-adders out there. You think many of us don't understand what you're trying to say... We do. Try not to talk down at us so much. And for goodness' sake, let it go with Mackin. How about a comprehensive list of pros and cons for each unit? I'm sure you could have thrown that together a lot faster than some of these self-defense posts of yours.

For the rest of y'all... Mackin may have been here longer, but that doesn't make him right. Of course, that doesn't make SCDN right, either. Try to keep an objective mind when evaluating the content of posts by a relatively new contributor. And remember that not everybody is familiar with the etiquette of this fine forum and the inter-personal relationships that have grown from it's use.

Lastly, if we all assume that the long-time contributors are always right and the "newbies" disagreeing with them are always wrong, then we're in for a world of hurt. Let's not alienate the "newbies" because their opinions stray from the norm... If we do, we risk driving off other new enthusiasts and potential "fountains of knowledge" before they even post. The more we can grow this forum, the better.

That's about all I have to say about that.

Fat Boy

P.S. So what does MountainMax's Grandma look like anyway? Is Grandpa still in the picture?