K&N air filter vs K&N air intake

[Maxter]

I had the K&N air filter for a while now and noticed immediatly after installation the increased turbo sound and the better trottle response.

If I switch from the air filter to the air intake system, how will things be different? Did anybody else made a similar switch?

Thanks.

JF.

[afp]

I went straight to the Aircharger, I notice turbo whine around 1200-1300 rpm.

I think the big advantage to the Aircharger is it seals off underhood air so the engine draws in cooler outside air.

Blaine

[ 08-28-2002: Message edited by: afp ]</p>

[george morrison]

As per my standard lube engineer suggestion: please run an oil analysis on your oil to make sure your K&N is providing adequate filtration for your needs.. I review hundreds of oil analysis results each day and can spot a K&N equipped vehicle a mile away. 99% of K&N equipped engines relfect very high wear rates as a result of high dirt ingestion from the K&N. All K&N's keep out bricks and birds extremely well. In most cases, that is about all they keep out.
Dirt is the #1 life shortener in an engine. It takes but one teaspoon of dirt to destroy a large CAT engine. Much less for ours.
Run an oil analysis......
George Morrison, STLE CLS

[afp]

Another poster--2DAMAX--has the same system I have, a K&N Aircharger with the Outerwears wrap. He drives in dry and sometimes dusty conditions. His silicone content from his recent oil analysis was 10. When I get enough miles on my oil, I'll have an analysis done as well. Hopefully, enough of us with Airchargers/Outerwear wraps will post our analysis results.

What also seems to go unnoticed is the test that Landry provided a link to, where it shows a K&N filtering out substantially more dirt than a factory paper element. And that test wasn't even corrected for airflow.

Blaine

[hdmax(mike)]

george morrison; If the K&N filter system is so bad, how did my 97 Z71 hold up for 220,000 miles without so much as a tune up?
I bought the K&N filter for that truck while it was on order, and installed it the weekend I picked up the truck. The engine never had even a hicup. I work in the construction field, most of the summer months is very dusty. I cleaned the filter once a year. (40-60 thousand miles)

I`m not saying you have an agenda, But I have had a great experience with K&N. As with most products, There is good experiences and bad ones.

[FirstDiesel]

Mike

I'm not an expert here but I'm confused about you accusing George of having an agenda. If he sold Amsoil filters like Greg it would make sense for him to slam the K&N unit. It just seems to me that he is trying to warn people that based on his experience reading oil analysis he sees a problem with the K&N unit. You had good luck with it, great. Maybe the next guy isn't as lucky.

[ 08-25-2002: Message edited by: FirstDiesel ]</p>

[IndigoDually]

Comparing gas vs. diesel applications does not give an accurate picture. The diesel motor moves a lot more air than the gas ones so the degradation does take place sooner on a diesel. If you ran a gas and a diesel truck side by side at the end of the test there would have been a lot more air filtered by the diesel and the filter should have trapped more dirt.

John

[bbattrell]

I have the K&N air intake. My analysis said silicone 3. This was with 4500 miles on the oil and 10,000 on the filter since insallation and I never cleaned it. Note this was not very dusty driving.

[ 08-25-2002: Message edited by: bbattrell ]</p>

[Silver Bullet]

Maxter,
I went from the stock air filter to the K&N filer, back to stock b/c I wanted the air charger so I sold the K&N filter to a TDP member here in Dallas and I just added the air charger a couple weeks ago. Since I did not run them back to back it is hard to say, but I think I can sum it up in one word...MORE! You can hear MORE turbo whistle and it appears to spool up faster.

[Kennedy]

If I believed in it, you'd see it on my site, and on my truck.

If it filtered so well, then why are guys prefiltering with outerwears?

The Dmax doesn't see just a whole ton of dirt with it's underhood pickup, but it still gets there. An oil analysis only sees the super fine stuff. Often larger particles can be drawn through.

On a Saturday night at the local dirt track, have someone lift the air cleaner lid for you and look at all the grit on the base plate.

Making 220,000 miles, while no small feat, could be easily done with frequent oil changes. This will remove the majority of the contaminants. Also making the 200k mark doesn't necessarily mean the engine was in the best condition it COULD have been...

[hdmax(mike)]

FirstDiesel; How did you get that I said anyone had an agenda? I stated that I was not accussing him of an agenda. and that I had good luck (maybe that is what it was) with the K&N filter.

JK; you are correct. regular oil changes is a major factor in long engine life.

As for comparing Diesels to gas engines. I won`t argue, because I don`t know. So I`ll take your work for it.

[afp]

Guys,

This is a no-win issue. For those that claim the K&N doesn't filter well, no amount of oil analysis or mileage (like Brokers 400,000 with K&Ns, or silicone readings of 3 to 10, or visibly passing less dirt than a paper filter when tested) will be convincing. Any posting of low silicone levels or high mileage or test results will just make them say "yeah but." Conversely, or those than think the K&N is great, no amount of horror stories about K&Ns letting dirt through, high silicne levels, etc will be convincing either.

The problem with all this is the opinions expressed here are anecdotal (this includes my opinons). IE, I have seen "X" happen so it must mean "Y." Sorry guys, that is not good science and often violates many tennets of proper logical thought. X may indeed equal Y, but there needs to be systematic and repeatable testing with proper controls before we can say for cetain whether a thing really is as we'd like to think.

The Outerwears provides water resistence, which is an important consideration with an open style element. It does provide a little additional filtering as well, with extremely little reduction in flow.

I know the DMaximizer guys found no HP difference between the factory airbox and no airbox. YEAH, BUT ;) they didn't test the K&N Aircharger system. Further, the K&N Aircharger seals off under hood air. This will not show up on the dyno, as there is no cooler airflow coming in from the grill to be had. So those Dyno tests are not indicative of how well a K&N Aircharger will flow or what HP increases it provides.

I don't think the idea that diesels flow a lot more air than gassers is necessarily true in all cases. Airflow is determined by displacement, rpm, and volmetric efficiency. A forced induction (turbo or supercharger) large engine operating at high rpm will have the most airflow requirements. The formula for determining airflow on 4-cycle engines is: CID/2 x rpm/1728 x VE (volumetric efficiency).

Take a 454 at 6000 rpm (a stout street motor). such a motor will typically have a VE of .85 (could be anywhere form .75 to 1.1, depending on how it's set up). Do the math and you need 788 cfm of airflow. Take our beloved DMax. I am not sure of the VE of our turbo-diesel, but say it's 2.0. Our motors turn 3200 rpm and our CID is about 404. Do the math, and you get an airflow requirement of 748 cfm. I realize there are a lot of assumptions in my VE numbers, and that will make a difference. The bottom line, however, is that just because a motor is diesel doesn't necessarily mean it flows more air.

However (another "yeah but"), our motor DOES need lots of air, and K&Ns flow lots of air--double a paper element. We don't know how much more they flow than the Amzoil, because neither company has enough kahonies to do a heads up test for airflow and filtering. I think Landry (sp?) will eventually have such a test to add to the filtering test he showed us.

BTW, no one should take any of this too seriously. While it is interesting, fun and informative, life doesn't really revolve around what air filter is optimum for our DMax. It actually revolves around what action is best to build a custom rifle on (Rem 700) ;) .

Blanie

[More Power]

Whatever airfilter works for you is what you should be using. Only through engine oil analyses can anyone be sure of whether their air filter of choice is doing the job. For some, (as mentioned here) the K&N works, but for others it doesn't.

I just wish a hundred K&N users, a hundred Amsoil Stage II users and a hundred AC paper users would all run their oil to 3000 miles, then have their oil analyzed. The data would be entertaining.

By the way, I shot a 298 at 800 yds with a custom 308 M700 last month....

MP

[afp]

MP,

I know this is off topic. What type of competition did you shoot? It sounds interesting. Also, you ever hang out with Ken Howell up there in Stevensville?

Blaine

[More Power]

This was a structured long-range rifle class (4 days) offered last month by a local gun club affiliate. The instructor was a recently retired major who was in the US Army SF's. I don't shoot competitively. I'd never shot at known & unknown distances this far before with a top-quality custom mil-dot scoped target rifle (borrowed). It was a lot of fun and I learned a lot.

The road to the range included about 8 miles of dirt (each way - 4 days), so analyzing the oil at the next drain interval should help us to learn more about the Amsoil Stage II.

MP

[ 08-25-2002: Message edited by: More Power ]</p>

[mackin]

More Power,

First we'll have to "ALL" (100 of us) decide which viscosity, brand of oil, and to use synthetic or not......To be consistent..... :eek:

YA RIGHT........It'll never end .....

Long live those two exhausting debates.......


MAC ;)

[george morrison]

Again, as I have shared so many times, I look at literally hundreds of oil analysis each day. 90% of the time high silicon/dirt alerts are from K&N filtered vehicles. Hundreds of vehicles, many thousands of miles through the years. Professionally, I must share this information.
As John has indicated, I have no monetary relationship associated with my comments. My only concerns are for people's engine longevity. And that is to make sure the K&N is indeed working for you in your application via oil analysis, which is the only way to *know*...
End of lecture...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

[afp]

George,

Isn't the same true for paper and Amzoil filers as well? The only way to know is to have oil analysis done?

Blaine

[Tsckey]

I ran a K&N FPIK for probably 80,000 of the 110K miles I owned my last 4Runner. When I sold it last week it still ran like a watch and burned no more oil between changes than it had since new. I didn't run in dusty conditions with any regularity and I only cleaned it twice, though I checked it regularly. The downstream side never failed to pass the white clove test and the filter never oozed oil into the intake. Despite all this, because I have a lot of respect for a person of George's credentials, for the time being I am not inclined to put a K&N on my new truck. But, unless I've missed something along the way (certainly possible) George has stopped short of endorsing the Amsoil filter as well, preferring the paper elements instead.

Am I correct in this George? Have you seen enough Amsoil samples to form an opinion about the efficiency of these filters vs paper? Or do your observations about the K&N apply to the Amsoil/foam filters as well? Your admiring public would like to know.

Thanks,

TC

[FirstDiesel]

hdmax

Sorry but reading your statement sounded like you were accusing George to me.

"I`m not saying you have an agenda, But I have had a great experience with K&N."

Sorta read it as if it was sarcasim. Sorry if that's not what it was. Lots of other people in other post seem to be accusing him of this.

[thechevyhdman]

Im about 1500 miles away from my 7,000 mile oil change and my oil will be brought up in person to H.O Penn CAT dealership for my SOS oil change. I dont know what the test will show dirt etc but I know that it will be fine. Im sure that Ill have a high Silicon content I assume as This recharge kit was the first one with the aerosol spray can for filter oil. Im used to the pump spray. In the end yeah Im an idiot used more than half the can of oil on ONE FILTER. It did sit for a few days so I assume it all drained off pretty well. I will post all results and the high silicon count if it does come back high is from my own stupidity, not from K&Ns fault. Is silicon even used in there filter oil, Maybe i can have that analyzed too. My roll off truck is also a K&N and thats gonna be SOS oil analyzed soon too, actually if you want proof every truck in my signature thats a Roll Off truck runs K&Ns so theres about 5 of the 100 people needed. Ive had the paper and Ive had the Amsoil, So far Im most pleased overall with the K&N. Maybe Kennedy would provide me with a Amsoil filter that I can run in one of the98's 6.5s we have and do a side by side comparison? Im mean George is saying 99 percent of the oil analysis he does on K&N have high wear rates rationally in my life have never had an oil sample done on anything except for our Cat 3126. Most people having oil analysis done are Big truck engines not cars and light trucks that we all drive. I have yet to see anyone in a big truck with a K&N filter. Those Donaldson filters are huge, does K&N even make a filter that big. Even so I figure maybe 3 percent of people with a light duty truck get there oil analyzed Ive never heard of anyone having it done, saying a statement that"99% of K&N users have a high wear rate" whats that equal too maybe three people that run K&NS. It doesnt seem to jive in my mind Im not picking on him Im just wondring who he works for that does oil analysis on soo many K&N users. I wouldnt have it done myself if it wasnt to prove to myself an everyone else that runs a K&N. I had the Amsoil, and honestly I was dissapointed with the whole thing when I opened the box, I ordered it from Greg a Lube specialists and he told me it squishes in the air box. The dang thing doesnt even have a surround to it. Its a piece of foam I payed 40 something bucks for. I say this all the time but I could have gone to the dump,grabbed a cushion from and old couch, oiled it up and had the same exact product. Im off the beaten path, but will post on this by the middle of september when I prove to myself and everyone else that the K&N performs flawlessly. If needed I will have the other 4 trucks analyzed too, as Kennedy said hes seen dirt on the intake tubeon the 6.5s. Well not the 4 that we own, but whatever. Its personal preference but Ive seen em both and well If me not running them in 200,000 dollars worthof equipment doesnt say something then maybe you need to remove your head from your vertical smile.

[LanduytG]

I was going to stay out of this since some would feel that I have and agrenda. But the Donaldson filters are crap and thats fact. I have a very large account that have several 150KW gen sets. all were running the Donaldson air filters. After several oil samples had been taken and seeing the fact that the silcon levels were always between 22-28ppm. I recommended that they change to a different air filter. Well they did so and silcon is now down in the single digit range. Oil samples were not being taken just to see silcon levels only, it was done to see what oil life is going to be.

Greg

[george morrison]

I look at hundreds of oil analysis results a day but not hundreds of K&N equipped vehicles, obviously. However, through the years, when a high dirt/wear metal oil analysis alert does come through more often than not it is a K&N equipped vehicle. It is a very blatant trend and my only intent in sharing this trend is for end users to run an oil analysis to confirm whether the K&N is indeed working in his/her application. There ARE times when a K&N works well; it is just that the numbers for not working at all far outnumber the working.. So, if one's goal is to maximize engine life run an oil analysis irrespective of whether you are gong to run a K&N or any air filter, including OEM! An induction leak, bad fitting, etc. can also allow unfiltered air into the engine. It takes but one teaspoon of dirt to destroy a huge V-16 CAT engine; obviously much less for ours to greatly accelerate wear levels, shorten life..
Regarding Amsoil air filters. I am re-visiting Amsoil filter efficiency right now and have one currently installed on our 6.5TD. This truck has a good oil analysis history (well actually bad as it has been plagued with high dirt since day one!) and will post results here as they proceed. I am hoping they are positive results indeed..
George Morrison, STLE CLS

[thechevyhdman]

George, Understandable. Im sure theres some Stock, some Amsoils and some K&Ns that dont do there job as well as others, its true with any product ever made in history. But I still think Greg or Kennedy, someone who swears by Amsoil should up the ante, Not to prove whos wrong but to see what is really the top. I have two identical trucks, two identical uses, do the exact same work, etc etc. Our trucks are all stop and go(Garbage Removal and Roll Off Service) so Naturally they are going to need alot more air than other trucks. Especially with the loads we pull and pure abuse they get. Ill run one truck with an Amsoil and one with a K&N and see what does what. IM not trying to start a controversy but I think it would be an awsome challenge. Is anyone up for it??? Ill return the Amsoil when Im done with its use for the purposes previously stated. Forget the labratory measurements, Lets see it used in the real world, In real conditions.Side by side. I didnt mean to be rude in my last post but everyone has there own opinions Im just a little bit more loud about it then most(Well I am Irish, Good Excuse) But it seems like theres alot who havent seen both ends of the stick. So Come on Ill be waiting by the mailbox for my Amsoil filter to come in.

[FrozenAKJoe]

After reading this thread for the last couple of days, I can now say that I am totally confused and undecided. I was totally set to purchase the K&N FIPC, but now I think I'll stick with the stock filter. I can't be sure what to get (Amsoil foam or K&N oiled), so I guess I'll just stick with what I know will be covered by warranty if I get a engine problem before 100k miles - cruddy stick airbox!

Maybe I'll just stuff a wad of paper towels down the chute! (Inevitably, somebody on this board will step forward and say they did the same thing and that it increased their HP and torque!)

[kerry witherspoon]

Well some very interesting post,s but as a mechanic i belive whatever brand of filter a person uses ,good maintenance ,keeping allthings as they should be such as intakes sealed etc.Will prevent premature failure more than a specific brand of filtre . good maintenance and good oil and a litle care means long life. YES i love my DURAMAX but a litle common sence goes a long way.

[mackin]

FrozenAKJoe,


Just make sure you OIL up the WAD of paper towels before shoving in the chute........ :eek:


On one note, a guy on the TDR running a KN, wasn't complaining but said he was inspecting his turbo blades on a routine maintenance thing (?) and discovered that the blade was covered in oil but not dirt (?) and was wondering how to clean it without damage......Just thought I'd toss this in with the sink.....

MAC :D :D :D

[sonofagun]

George,

Have you seen any comparative analysis with the amsoil filters?

Dead EYE (Morepower) some very serious shootin' Jim. Well done.


Bob

[afp]

Bob,

I am in Converse, and Billy14 is on the NE side of town. Maybe we have enough guys to get together at Marion and see how our trucks run in the 1/4 mile. I'll have my juice in a couple days.

Blaine

[DMAXTODD]

Let me throw this in the mix, here are my two oil analysis.Does my motor look ok? Im new to reading the results of these.

4-06-02 20,000 miles about half with K&N Aircharger 5,000 miles on Oil

4-06-02 7-11-02
OXD%4.4 13.3

NOX%4.3 5.7


TBN12.1 12.9


FE IRON 28 13

CR CHROMIUM 2 0

PB LEAD 0 5

CU COPPER 1 8

SN TIN 0 3

AL ALUMINUM 8 9

Ni NICKEL 0 1

AG SILVER 0 0

MN. MAGANESE 0 1

Si SILICON 6 10

B BORON 33 31

NA SODIUM 1 7

MG MAGNESIUM 14 14

CA CALCIUM 4388 4311

BA BARIUM 0 0

P PHOSPHORUS 1297 1248

ZN ZINC 1351 1381

MO 0 0

TI TITANIUM 0 0

V VANADIUM 0 0

CD CADMIUM 0 0

7-11-02 5,000 miles all with K&N Aircharger and more towing than normal,some dusty conditions,but nothing extreme,is it filtering enough?

[sonofagun]

afp,

I'm in Garden Ridge. Don't have the Juice (yet) but would like to see one in action before going there. Need to get my guages and 4" installed first. Gotta do it all by May (it sometimes takes me a while so gotta set deadlines!!!!). email me and we can see about getting together.

Bob

[afp]

Bob,

I don't your e-mail addy anywhere. Mine is: painterb@sbcglobal.net

Blaine

[george morrison]

Dmaxtodd:
Oil analysis results look okay at this point.. Please continue analysis, however, just to make certain. As I have mentioned in previous posts, there are cases where the K&N does seem to be okay; this may be one.
All paramters look A-OK.. Wear metals, vis, etc. all within normal parameters.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

[Kennedy]

Based on my 18k filter service (Amsoil) yielding very little dirt in the wash pan, it would seem that the Dmax is getting pretty clean air in most cases.

Still wouldn't run a K&N though

[Maxter]

Well,

I was away for a few days after starting that topic. So far, on 32 replies, I've seen only one that gave an answer to my initial question (thanks Silver Bullet).

I'm sorry if I re-ignited the old K&N debate, that was not the purpose of the post. But I like you all anyway so thanks for participating!

JF.

[IHRAracer]

Maxter go ahead and get the K&N filtercharger it is the way to go. There is know comparison to the stock filter. I help my friend farm here in the south with the old dusty black soil. I used to run the stock air filter, but when I took it out, just to check during my oil change, dust fell out of the bottom. It was filthy. Also the intake had some dust on it. I installed the K&N now no problems just solutions no more dirt. The complete K&N kit is the way to go. Oil analysis can be confusing, I have seen bad oil.