PS, CTD, and the Duramax reliability...

[Alli-max]

Curiousity strikes....

Is there any way to compare (as in where is the info?) the 3 trucks and when they got linked to their respectable powerplants, on the reliability issue in their FIRST year of existance?

Example: How many 2001 Duramax motors came back to the factory vs. # of units sold.

[csimo]

The manufacturers are very tight lipped about such numbers. Alldata keeps some "unofficial" information if you subscribe to their premium services. Below is a posting from a guy on the RV forum. I personally think he's full of it, here's his post anyway:

"My company makes the pistons for tha largest replacement company that supplies the diesel market. Most 'rumors'are based on modified motors. We have to destroy our test motors to gain info for PPAP data. To do this we use 3 methods, time, propane and lean injector mode. The Cummins, by far, handles the most abuse, next is Navistar then Duramax. On the HP enhancement tests, Cummins made over 650 hp, navistar did 525 and Duramax did 405. In the time(longevity) testing, Cummins did the 3000 required hours and was still going, navistar did it also and the Duramax failed at 1580 the first time and 1920 the second. When the 'lean' test was done, Cummins was the only one to survive, then navistar and duramax. I would love to have a Ford with a cummins in it but setted for a ford. In a stock configuration, there is little difference between the big 3 except origin of parent company. To be too proud and make statements like your motor has more pulling power or HP or torque is unfounded bragging."

He later states:

"My name on other sites is Panman. I am the Motorcycle Division Manager for Keith Black Performance Pistons, a division of Silvolite, a subsidiary of United Engine & Machine, in Carson City, Nv. and Mexico." and his contact info. he posted is: "800-560-4814 and my extension is 153".

I suspect this will become a hot topic here!

[SoMnDMAX]

What the he** is "lean injector mode" on a diesel???? :confused:

[Jelisfc]

There is far to liitle information given on how the tests were done. They were destructive tests based on worst case scenarios. That type of testing is good to find the weak links but doesn't give accurate real life information.

Hp enhancement test - In todays competitive market manufaturers can't afford to design something that is indestructable unless it is required by the market. It's interesting that the older motors can handle more Hp. It tells me GM/Isuzu have a spec that is closer to what a production unit is capable of. Also nothing was mentioned of what really failed. Having an inadequate fuel system is a whole different story that a broken crank.

Life - 3000 engine hours assuming an average 30 mph is only 90,000 miles. Hmmmm the Dmax warranty is for 100,000.

Lean injector - I don't know what it is but having it will probably melt the pistons.

[ 08-23-2002: Message edited by: Jelisfc ]</p>

[01_Duramax_Dually]

Here we go again...
More limited information about testing. Here is the question I have.

Is this really important information to have as a consumer?. Will this make me buy a cummins motor becasue they can test it over the edge and it last longer than the other 2? How many people are going to modify their trucks to run it on the jagged edge? For the people that do modify the original configuration you better KNOW that anytime you lean on anything you INCREASE the chance of premature failure. Anybody who has added Propane, Duramaximizer, BDDynomite, Juice and so on should not be surprised if something fails.

Although having more power is a good thing I am just not sure it is necessary for the general consumer who is towing within the manufacturers limits...

I Heads Up Drag Race so I know the outcome when adding to make more power and running to the edge. Point in case..I have a GM Bowtie block. GM rates the block at 800HP before you could walk the main caps or stretch the webbing, however I am pressing nearly 1400HP...Should I be upset if the block fails or any other component for that matter?....

Carry On..... :D

[Colorado Kid]

The "Lean injector" flags it for me. A lean injector on a port injected GAS engine, particularly on a nituous enhanced or supercharged gas engine, can be very destructive, causing detonation and piston failure when running at very high power levels.

The industry that sees this is tubocharged piston airplane engines which chew themselves up pretty badly if they go too lean at take-off power. (There is a mixture control for each engine in the cockpit, which should be "full rich" for take-off, so the pilot can cause the trouble, or the "boost" pump (which we would call a "lift" pump if it were on a diesel) can fail (or be left switched off) which also causes a lean condition at high power settings.

On a diesel engine however, a lean (or partially plugged) injector would be expected to result only in reduced power from that cylinder. BFD. At idle diesels run air:fuel ratios of about 100:1. At max fuel rate it might be 8:1, but a diesel with less fuel and the same amount of air is just going to make less power, less heat and less stress.

Maybe I've got this wrong, so if somebody knows better please clue us in.

[hoot]

HP enhancement test??????

What did they do to each engine to enhance performance? These engines are totally different from each other. Performance enhancements for the Dmax are still being developed so what did they do to destroy the engine?

[csimo]

I know nothing other than what the guy posted. I hope that someone at GM will give this place a call and have a talk with them. He said he was willing to show documentation.

[ 08-23-2002: Message edited by: csimo ]</p>

[DURA-MAX3]

Well my take on the testing tends to lead to real world testing. The Duramax engine is the most tested engine in gm history i've been told. Tested since 1997 or something. That is what i am interested in, how it lasts the way it is driven and worked from day to day. If you simulate problems and something fails what does that prove, and i also think this was truck of the year the first year it came out, somebody likes it. You would have to steal mine to get it from me. Just my 2 cents worth. Good day to all...

[DURA-MAX3]

One more thing real quick, the guy said that a cummins was 650hp, Not to say it is'nt possible but i was in the trucking business not long ago and i had a 550hp cat engine and it was a 14.6 liter engine, and this guy is telling us that a 5.9 liter is putting out 650hp, hum i don't know about that. Same for the navistar engine, if that hp number was right for them then why are they completly redesigning the engine for 03... They can't keep tranny's in there trucks now little lone with those hp numbers....

[LUCAS S]

I can't speak for the Ford but the Dodge is capable of producing that kind of power but it takes a lot of modification, and they don't live very long like that.

[Flyboy]

I like Brokers test best. Over 400,000 miles towing without major problems. That says a lot.

[afp]

I agree with those who want to see more details and the data used in testing. It is easy to construct a test that will favor one design over another. In fact, it's hard not to, even when you try to avoid doing so.

It kind of strikes me like the Hemi guys bragging how the NHRA Super Stock A and A/A records are usually held by a 426 Hemi, so that means the 426 Hemi is the most powerful motor in it's class--while ignoring that the Chevy 427 is factored at a higher HP rating so the Chevy must weigh more while competing "heads up" with the Hemi.

There are so many factors involved that we must see a full accounting of the testing methods to draw any meaningful conclusions. It almost sounds like we're jealous of the Cummings, but that isn't the issue.

In a Truck Trend test (Dec 2000), the D/A made less RW torque than both the Cummings and the Ford, but was quicker in the 0 - 80 mph empty and was quicker towing a 9000 lb trailer. The D/A was 120 lbs lighter than the Dodge but 655 lbs heavier than the Ford. However, the Allison didn't lose anything while shifting, while the other two trucks--both with manuals--undoubtably did. The difference in this case is the article gavew us quite a bit of data as well as describing the tresting method. With all that, it leads to the conclusion that a turbo-diesel in front of an Allison is a very efficient combo for acceleration. It doesn't really say the DMax has a better motor.

Blaine

[TBC]

Testing is determine how a product will fail and how long it takes. It is called destructive testing. We test helicopters and parts by cycling them under as close an operational environment as possible to real life. We run the test until it fails, determine why and fix it to last longer if necessary. If the part lasts longer than the expected normal life of the component then it met it's design characterics. I read the crap this guy wrote on the other site and it made no sense what so ever. They were testing pistons not the entire engine and definitely not under normal usage conditions. He had some cock and bull story about this lean thing not really being lean but it was just a term used in the test. Diesels don't burn lean or they won't burn at all. It takes fuel to make a fire, especially when compressing the fuel to start the fire without outside help. I think he is blowing smoke and not diesel smoke and it is coming out of his exhaust.

[Bart Timothy]

There are countless 24v CTD Dodges running in excess of 500 rwhp on #2 nowadays with the fairly recent avialability of inexpensive, huge injectors. A year ago 400 was the number for the average horse power junkie to aim for, and now 500 without drugs is easy. The engines are holding up very well with no failures other than head gaskets, which a $200 o-ring job solves. Mnay of the high hp guys are turning to dual turbos and running 70 - 80 lbs boost common, automatic trannys, and 700+ rwhp on nitros - with daily drivers. Some are just now getting inside the block by starting to look at cams, and mechanical improvements to the injection pump. $3000 buys a bigger turbo, injectors, Edge Comp box, 4" exhaust, and 500 hp, not including the necessary drivetrain improvements. 6 to $7000 buys everything to get a truck in the 650 to 700 rwhp area on a single turbo.

My prediction is the D/A isn't far behind. It takes time to find the secrets to make this kind of power.

[csimo]

To me the point of this thread is not which engine can make the most power. As more parts become available for the various engines the answer to that is simple... whoever spends the most money to get the power.

The point is durability and reliability. I go back to what the guy posed on the RV forum. To refresh memory:
"In the time(longevity) testing, Cummins did the 3000 required hours and was still going, navistar did it also and the Duramax failed at 1580 the first time and 1920 the second."

There were several different tests, but in the above statement he specifies longevity. A time or longevity test should not be a destructive test, and my sincere question is why would the Duramax fail in 50 - 75% shorter time that the others.

I am pro Duramax, and drive one every day. This guy posted his name, company info., telephone number, etc. so it sounds like he is willing to back up the claim. The company he works for is apparently a very reputable piston manufacturer.

If his claims are true I think we should know why. If they aren't true we need to rebut them.

I don't know how to prove him right, or wrong.

[hoot]

When they say "failed", I'd like to know what failed.

[mackin]

csimo,

Send his company E-mail (tech@kb-silvolite.com) till we get a response since he chose to be the company "PR MAN"........And give a selective incomplete testing procedure and results......
===========================================
So I received this =&gt;I've given your E-mail to our Silvolite engineer to research before you receive a response, you will probably be hearing from him shortly......
===========================================

We will see........ I didn't like to see this word "probably"......


MAC

[ 08-26-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[hoot]

Sent one.....

[mackin]

csimo,

Could you point me to the original post you recovered, I feel BS info from?


Thanks,

MAC

[glclary]

Mackin, the original post was on irv2.com, go to forums, TT & Fifth Wheels, Towing. All the crap about our pitiful Chevy's was posted by Pyle. I just looked and its all been deleted today. Before it was deleted in one post he says his boss wasn't happy with him. May he got his a$$ fired. :D

http://irv2.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=089094322&f=356091522&m=1053098546

Regards,
Lee

[mackin]

Well that explains a few things .......The pieces will fall together.....Wheels in motion.....Thanks glclary .....
After all it was "his" suggestion we (I) check out his story.....

MAC

[ 08-27-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[Bart Timothy]

I apologise for getting off the subject in my last post in this thread.

No manufacturer produces and engine totally free from failures. If operated long enough, and if enough units have been produced, even the best designs will have some failures - it being a given, proper maintainance etc. has been performed. We always usually hear about those failures, especially if it's an another brand's engine and tend to over emphasize little problems which aren't really that big. In our own rigs we may under value problems which are bigger than we think. That's human nature, especially after you've spent big bucks on your truck purchase.

My assumption is higher performance levels can bring out design flaws, etc. on an engine and demonstrate how reliable it is. At 700 hp the 24v CTD is producing over 1400 ft/lbs touque, which can break things easy. We're talking about daily drivers here. Nothing in the engines is breaking, other than stock head gaskets, which are good to almost 60 lbs boost in the non HO models.

I also think the dollar costs to bring the CTD to the 5, 6, and 700 hp levels are quite low. There are a couple of reasons for this, but probably the biggest is the fact that, except for head o-ringing, nothing else has to be done to the basic engine to increase reliability at the 700 hp level. The blocks are never even opened up by the hp guys. I don't think this can be said about the PSD, besides the fact it costs an arm and leg to get one to those power levels, and you have to look long and hard to even find one which has over 500 hp, even though plenty of people have tried to get them there. The only PSD at 600 hp, which I'm aware of, was totally unreliable at that power level in my opinion. The Duramax is too new to achieve those power levels by the average hp guy, and therefore high performance can't be used as a test for reliability, so I think the jury is still out on it.

We'll all know much more about the Duramax reliability after some time has passed.

[ 08-31-2002: Message edited by: Bart Timothy ]</p>

[csimo]

Seems like the Cummins/Dodge boys find this thread funny.

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=723060f970ae37bd443d106b575e78ce&threadid=54817

It's sad we couldn't come up with anything to dispute this. I wish GM/DMAX would publish some B10 or B50 numbers for the Duramax 6600.

[Maxxheadroom]

"Speed cost money, how fast do you wanna' go" This was the saying during my Indy car days, it still holds true today even in diesel technology

[FrozenAKJoe]

I think I saw a commercial last night advertising the new F350 PSD. Ford is claiming they now have the leading torque monster at 525 lbs. I guess this means I should sell my Dmax? NOT! Until they do something about the God-awful noise, you can count me out.

[ZFMax]

Torque is not a performance metric.

[hoot]

Actually the later model Powerstrokes with pre-injection are just about as quiet as the Dmax.

But they sound more like a sewing machine than the Duramax does. I was just listening to one recently and I couldn't tell the difference between it and a Singer puttin in a button hole.

[SoCalDMAX]

Hoot, you are just too kind. Couldn't you have come up with a lower quality sewing machine to compare them to? ;)

I've noticed the same, some of them rattle a little at idle, but sound very smooth just off idle.

Regards, Steve

[mackin]

So what happened any one hear anything????? Seems Pyle was just shoveling a pile of horse $hit......What a PYLE he shoveled......I received no more emails,anyone else? Has he been back on the site or on others? Seems he only cleaned up his PYLE on the site and hasn't returned......

MAC