Questions for George Morrison

[pinehill]

George,

I've now seen several fuel analyses performed by Avlube. Particle counts (>2 micron) on unfiltered pump fuel have varied all the way from less than 1100 to almost 9000.

Since most of my driving is away from my home, I get fuel from a large number of stations across the country, and I'm trying to get a handle on the cleanliness of the "typical" station. In your work, you must see a huge number of fuel samples from various stations. What do you see across this sampling of stations for particle counts about a mean value, say, approximately 2 standard deviations?

My second question concerns the "limit" and "target" particle counts on your analysis sheets. How were these values determined?

Thanks for all the information you've been providing us.

[pinehill]

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[dmaxstu]

Don't ever fuel at a station that has the tanker there dumping a load of fuel. The fuel going into the station tank will stir up all the crud that is in the tank. Stu

[TraceF]

Along the same fuel quality line- could you tell us about cetane ratings?

Octane is all over the pumps but cetane isn't. How do I tell? Is there a published list somewhere?

[george morrison]

As a "mean" fuel quality, a 19/17/15 would apply, however, one tankful of 26/24/22 with 150ppm of water would make the mean 'meaningless'.

Regarding the derivation of the target and limit. The cleanliness levels/iso codes are based on targets established by pump manufacturers (Vickers, Hydac, etc.). The actual limits were developed from bench test wear rates based on size spectrum/dirt levels. The targets levels are for high pressure hydraulic systems of up to 6,000 psi. Our "hydraulic systems" are up to 30,000 psi so the cleanliness target/limit levels are pretty conservative. A site to download an example of a hydraulic ISO cleanliness target chart is http://www.hydacusa.com/brochures/Filters/guidelines.pdf

George Morrison, STLE CLS

[george morrison]

Regarding Cetane/Cetane Index. Our fuel analysis reports Cetane Index which gives a good performance number, especially as it relates to cold weather starting, smoke, etc. However, as long as we meet minimum cetane number of 40, our engines are fine. They do start better, run cleaner with higher cetane numbers, on up to 50.
90% of the fuels we have sampled so far are in the 40 to 44 cetane index range. Some (very few) of the premium fuels, especially BP Diesel Supreme are 47 to 50 cetane index. BP Diesel Supreme is easily identified by its total water clear color. It is the creme de la creme of diesel fuels but now has very limited availability throughout the country. I get BP Supreme delivered in 1000 gallon loads, then it is filtered down to 12/10/8 by a final filter before going into my Duramax. Normaly BP changes its stations over to Supreme for winter operations (they used to offer Supreme year round but due to "price", no more) but now use an additized #2 for winter operations.
To sum up, no, cetane number (slightly higher number but directly relevant to cetane Index) (Cetane number costs thousands of dollars to run as it can only be determined by actually running in a controlled diesel engine test stand) (Cetane index is derived from laboratory burn data and provides good correlation to cetane number: which is why we use it in our $52 total cost test: good information at reasonable cost)
Moreover, we have seen some stations selling less than 40 cetane (federal minimum spec) and charging premium pricing for it! Pump labeled "premium" yet sub-specification cetane index!

I hope this answers your questions.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

[george morrison]

Regarding "is there a published list for Cetane?" No, unfortunatley, about the only thing you will see in writing relating to cetane will be the published fuel analysis reports folks here have accomplished/posted. And cetane has indeed become a problem in some locales, especially east coast, New York, New England areas as some of the European reject ULSD has made it to our shores and is being sold at low price; it is not only low cetane but low on lubricity, etc. This is another reason to use a good fuel additive containing cetane boost, lubricity enhancer, corrosion protection, water emulsifier, etc. as insurance, especially if you live in those areas.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

[pinehill]

George,

Thanks for the responses, and one last question:

How does 19/17/15 translate to the type of particle count charts you show on your analysis sheets?

[ 03-10-2003: Message edited by: pinehill ]</p>

[george morrison]

The 19/17/15 is an ISO cleanliness code has a lot of meaning to a lube engineer. However to someone not working in lubes each and every day, not a heck of a lot of relevance. Thus I translated the actual particles per ML to particles per gallon to give real worl meaning to the ISO cleanliness code system. i.e. when one sees 300,000,000 particles &gt;5 microns in every gallon of fuel, the impact is real, vs a 26/24/22 ISO code.. I tried to present the data in every meaningful form to enable a complete understanding of the data and to get a handle on just what was going through our fuel systems.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

[TraceF]

A customer gave me a gallon of this to try out:

Power Service Diesel Injector Cleaner Part # 3040

"Contains Lubricity Additive
Meets Cummins L-10 Spec
Meets Cummins N-14 Spec
Contains cetane inprover
...meets lubricity requirements for Stanadyne, John Deere, Bosch..."

Once per oil change at 250:1
Full time maintenance at 1000:1

Anyone heard of this and is it good quality?

[george morrison]

The Power Service products are of good quality.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

[Toddster]

Trace, I use FPPF Total Power in my Dmax, I consider it more of a "performance" additive and more importantly an emulsifier....I use the Power Service in my Macks, it is cheaper, found at every fueling stop (around here) and from my understanding and experience is a demulsifier....The water falls out and I drain the water from the belly (water catcher) on the bottom of the tanks....NOT recomended for the Dmax IMO.

[Kennedy]

George could elaborate further, but I'll try to "wing it" here. It is my understanding that in order to fall into ISO spec of 15-13-10, we need to have LESS than the following:


Particles per mililiter

&gt;2um = 320

&gt;5um = 80

&gt;10um = 10

Particles per US gallon

&gt;2um = 1,211,200

&gt;5um = 302,800

&gt;10um = 37,850


Now as I understand, the amount of particle DOUBLES for each step up the ladder we take, so the ISO number 15 spec particle count can range from 160-319p/ml!

When you look at my sample results, you'll see that the numbers (169, 56, 10/ml)are VERY close to breaking into the next lower spec!

The overwhelming part is like George said, how many MILLIONS of particles of dirt there can be in a gallon of fuel :eek:

[TraceF]

Toddster mi amigo- WHY no Dmax?

Are you saying that a demulsifier is no good for DMax engines?

Has this been covered elsewhere?

[ 03-12-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>

[pinehill]

Trace,

The following threads contain more than you probably ever wanted to know about emulsifying/demulsifying.

ADDITIVE THREADS
http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=002151&p=
http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=004410
http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=004436&p=
http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=004594&p=

[TraceF]

pinehill-

OK. I read every post. Two seemingly very knowledgeable posters go against additives, (Racor and SpoolinIt) and two seemingly very knowledgeable posters seem to go for additives (Kennedy and George M).

Thank you for helping this to become so very clear to me. tongue.gif

[pinehill]

You're quite welcome. :D

Anything to clarify an issue. tongue.gif

Actually, it wasn't one side opposed to additives and the other against. It was one touting emulsifiers and the other demulsifiers.

[ 03-12-2003: Message edited by: pinehill ]</p>

[TraceF]

Yes technically. The nay sayers (Racor) seem to say that an additive isn't necessary.

I'm sooooo confused.

[TraceF]

As an after thought, what Racor and Spoolin'It don't seem to buy off on is that water suspended and carried through the system will not leave residual water IN the system eventually causing corrosion along the way. Kennedy and George think there will be no residual.

Racor and Spoolin'It also seem to share the belief that stopping water in the tank or preferably with quality filtration is better than trying to send it THROUGH the fuel system. Kennedy and George disagree with this.

Isn't this the basis of the debate?

I doubt that GM recommends NO additives because they are afraid their customers will use anything. They haven't been shy about recommending products in the past, everything from additives to specific name brand lubricants.

Using additives could well be the equivalent of using a juice box of some type in terms of warranty issues since GM is specific on the issue.

[Toddster]

Just SAY NO to additives and plug and plays ! Why ? Cuz I was told the "new" scanner that detects the use of the plug and play CAN also detect the use of fuel additives ! Double whammy warranty void ! DAMMIT ! You had to start another warranty debate didn't ya Studly ! lol.... ;)

[TraceF]

Toddster-

It seems like we get more info when the debate gets emotional doesn't it?

:D

It gets some of the knowledgeable people to type as well as read!

[ 03-13-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>

[george morrison]

Regarding "Just SAY NO to additives and plug and plays ! Why ? Cuz I was told the "new" scanner that detects the use of the plug and play CAN also detect the use of fuel additives!" (I apologize for quoting but it was so perfectly put!)
If this is in fact the case, "Houston, we have a problem". Throughout the U.S., many diesel fuel wholesale/resale market "premium" level diesel fuel. If Primrose 405 additive is used in the appropriate concentration for #2 diesel, it can then be sold as "premium" (there are other additives as well). The same is for winter grade diesel fuel. Primrose 409 additve, cold flow + premium monicer.. (again, same with certain other additives also)
To the point: many locations sell "Premium" diesel fuel that has been additized as the methodology to achieve the increased Cetane, pour, etc. Thus, if the above statement is true, we ALL have a problem as every one of us have purchased "additized" fuel at some point..
This winter was an excellent example. Here in Ohio BP always marketed Diesel Supreme as its winter grade diesel. However, due to pricing considerations, marketed regular BP #2 diesel additized to achieve the cold flow characteristics needed to meet the required cold flow performance. BP Diesel Supreme was totally unavailable to John Q. Public. (Except those of us with 1,000 gallon tanks, that is) Additized #2 provides the same level of cold flow performance as #1 and #2 blend, with better cetane, performance, all at a lower cost..
Many of the distributors in Central Ohio use Primrose 409 in bulk to achieve cold flow requirements, again, at both lower cost and incrased performance.
Thus we have/are/will be buying some form of additized diesel at some point in our Duramax's lifetime, without really knowing when/how. Additization is not required to be posted...
Thus any warranty issues based on additization would be moot..
George Morrison, STLE CLS

[ 03-13-2003: Message edited by: george morrison ]</p>

[pills]

The Citgo station that I buy from advertises "XL" premium additive in the fuel. I have no idea what this "XL" additive is but it is advertised at the pump. I also use FPPF fuel power in every tank!!

[TraceF]

George-

If you just said what I thought I read-

&lt;&lt; Here in Ohio BP always marketed Diesel Supreme as its winter grade diesel. However, due to pricing considerations, marketed regular BP #2 diesel additized to achieve the cold flow characteristics needed to meet the required cold flow performance. BP Diesel Supreme was totally unavailable to John Q. Public. (Except those of us with 1,000 gallon tanks, that is) Additized #2 provides the same level of cold flow performance as #1 and #2 blend, with better cetane, performance, all at a lower cost.. &lt;and&gt;
Additization is not required to be posted... &lt;and&gt; Thus any warranty issues based on additization would be moot.. &gt;&gt;

you just said a mouthfull brother! Isn't fuel spec Federally regulated?

:confused:

Are you saying that in this case this particular Federal specification can be changed with jug-o-goo-409?

Does BP/Amoco approve of this? Does your distributor make this public knowledge? How do you- with a 1000 gallon tank get better fuel that the truck stop selling 1000 gallons an hour? On request?

This is definately not my area of expertise but now I am WAY :confused: confused. Especially about the availability part.

[ 03-13-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>

[george morrison]

Regarding the availability of BP Diesel Supreme. (water clear, 50 Cetane, -15 cloud, accompanied by a 200,000 mile fuel injector warranty, no questions asked). I agree. It is totally unfair but true. There is not one central Ohio public source for BP Diesel Supreme. Yet I can call the local distributor and purchase 50+ Cetnae BP Diesel Supreme for my bulk tank. When John Q Public purchases BP winter, he gets a 'treated' #2 diesel; mild yellow, 40+/- cetane, run of the mill diesel.
It IS totally unfair indeed. We have 20 personal diesels a day visit our facility and I would love to be able to share my 50+ cetane ISO 14/12/8, 26 ppm water BP diesel Supreme with them!
Now you know why JK is installing a bulk diesel fuel tank........
George

[ 03-13-2003: Message edited by: george morrison ]</p>

[TraceF]

I got a couple of emails on this so I guess it's worth asking- why are you using Prim 409 in the BP #1 Super 50?

You have said essentially that over additizing results in no gain and that you use the Prim 409 regularly. Why so, with the quality fuel you are getting?

If 409 is used to make #2 meet the #1 spec, isn't it (the #1) additized already or are we misreading your post?

[pinehill]

George is getting the good stuff -- the stuff BP no longer sells to the public, not the additive-dosed fuel currently available at the pump,

[Kennedy]

ANY fuel will benefit from additives. European diesel is quite often 55 cetane whereas we have to scratch to cross 45! The emulsifying properties also safeguard against moisture problems as well...

[SPICER]

George,

Tell me more about the BP 200,000 mile injector warranty. I have an AMOCO(no name change yet) that sells AMOCO Premier. I get all my fuel there. I did a crude test(fuel in clear glass jars) and compared it to 2 others including CITGO. The Premier looked like water compared to the other two, so I believe it is Premier.

And how can they guarantee your injectors with their fuel if dirt is our enemy? Do they monitor for dirt in the underground "cesspool"? Thanks! SPICER

[george morrison]

Regarding "And how can they guarantee your injectors with their fuel if dirt is our enemy?"
I posed that exact quote to the manager of BP's program.. He had absolutely no idea what I was talking about.... At this point, most people on the DP know more about fuel quality/cleanliness than 99.9% of the folks in the fuel industry...

Regarding additization of the BP Diesel Supreme 50 octane. I am using the Primrose 409/405 as 'insurance'. The Primrose contains: cetane boost, lubricity enhancer, water emulsifier, rust preventive, injector/system cleaner.. The BP diesel supreme does not need the cetane boost, obviously, but I want the added protection, even with Supreme. Plus there is nothing wrong with a 55 cetane number! In my 35 year career I have authorized some very large fuel system replacement checks thus learned early on the value of fuel supplementation.
Additionally, my tank has a 2 micron desiccant breather which prevents moisture/dirt entry via the breather plus a 1 micron beta 2000 filter on the dispenser...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

[SPICER]

George,

If I am using the BP/AMOCO Premier, am I automatically eligible for their warranty? Do I have to pass a physical first? The dude at the gas station bragged about his fuel but never mentioned a warranty for injectors. SPICER :confused:

[george morrison]

Unfortunately there are "conditions" to qualify for the BP Supreme Warranty. One must either be a farmer or use the vehicle in business. And one must "register" each vehicle, which can easily be accomplished on line.
http://www.bpdirect.com/bpguarantee/details.html
For the warranty details. However, if one qualifies, Supreme is available, given the fuel system replacement costs, it is rather a no brainer..
It is interesting in that BP is NOT advertising this warranty at all.. As per my previously publushed fuel analysis for BP Diesel Supreme (19/17/15), the contamination level is the same for Supreme as for regular diesel fuels. BP Supreme is unfiltered below 30 microns when it leaves the refinery; BP will be purchasing a few injectors and fuel pumps.
George Morrison, STLE CLS