Perfomance Boxes and Price - When will Competition catch up?

[MountainMax]

There semms to be a magic number out there reached independently by several performance manufacturers: $895. It seems that yes, it is true. If you do R&D and mfg a box, you will all arrive at a similar number using classic economic theory models of supply and demand. It peeves me that performanced products for other vehicles tend to be about half this amount. I wonder when one of these manufacturers will do the math and realize that there is alot of pent up demand for performance w/o spending close to $1000 plus adding guages. They stand to make more money if they move more units at a lower price because it will open up a greater % of the market. When one of the better products start testing the $500 mark I, (and I will bet a whole bunch of other owners) will jump in. Those of you who know something about economics and profit maximization models feel free to jump in. So until good old competion forces prices down, I will be dreaming of burn outs.

[sdaver]

$7.96/real rear wheel horsepower........hot juice $995/125hp.............get that in a gas motor or ask any racer you know its a deal..........your not comparing apples to apples.......$400 for a hypertech programer......maybe 40 rear wheel horse power.......maybe......save your money and stop dreaming........dave :D

2000 CHEVY 5.3 WHIPPLE SUPERCHARGER AND TUNING/INSTALLATION $5000.00+ FOR 150 MORE REAR WHEEL HORSPOWER 5000/150=$33.33 PER HORSEPOWER RUNS ABOUT EVEN WITH MY JUICED DMAX....LOW NINES IN THE 1/8TH WEIGHS 1500LBS LESS

[ 11-26-2002: Message edited by: sdaver ]

[ 11-26-2002: Message edited by: sdaver ]</p>

[c5dura]

I agree with MountainMax, while it is true that there is more 'hidden' horsepower inside the duramax than almost any gasser, I don't see why that has to mean the performance manufactures have to charge more for that box vs. the gasser boxes.

They both do more or less the same thing; change timing (both) and A/F (gas) or duty cycle (diesel).

I also find it very interesting that the Hot Juice is a $300 premium over the 'regular' Juice. Its the same box, just with a bit more aggressive programming.

Another good example is the newly developed Diablo Predator. This programmer is $495 for gassers, but will likely be priced at $695 for the duramax when released.

In the end, I guess you are paying on a per rwhp basis, and not really for the cost of the hardware + R&D.

But then again, if these boxes/programmers sold for $500 and promised 100rwph, perhaps they would fly off the shelves and the companies would make even more money. Dunno.

[ 11-26-2002: Message edited by: c5dura ]</p>

[stretch]

Let me be the first to welcome you fellas to America, the land of opportunity !!!! If you have the knowledge to create a product that sells, you too can make a fortune.
The price we are paying is mostly for the R & D. I'm sure Edge had to make a serious investment and commitment to develop their products. I guess they probably sold enough Juice boxes by now to offset their costs and I'm sure they are making a killing now. While I know its a tough thing to swallow the fact that the box probably only costs them $25.00 to make, but at least they are continuing development to refine their product and are doing so without charge (for now) to their customers. I wish consumer electronic companies and computer manufacturers did the same. Buy a PC today and next week something faster and better come out. :(

[AzKevin]

When you add all the associated costs for R&D, test vehicles, facility, automotive grade parts, automotive test equipment, manufacturing, staffing, benefits, advertising, and warranty it adds up to a bunch more than $25 per.

If anyone deserves to make a profit it would be Edge. Now on the otherhand, those darn panhandlers... ;)

[mackin]

One thing is true if this helps the Edge Juice,as their other products are MADE IN THE USA !!!!!! How often can one say that???? They had a wonder full article in the TDR rag this quarter on all about Edge Products,well, Dodge, Their Home Base with Pics.....R&D is heavy in the 03 Cummins I'm sure right now.....So get ready boys for a battle at the stop signs......You too ladies !!!!!!

MAC ;)

[ 11-26-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[mackin]

AzKevin

Where in Heel you been???? Hot Juiced yet ??????

MAC :D

[AzKevin]

howdy mackin,

I've been obsessing with a few new habits (HDTV and a baby) and only now am getting caught with the old ones. :D

I thought briefly about the hot juice but the unleaded is more than enough fun for me. If a tranny upgrade was in my future I might reconsider. There's just too many fun things out there competing for dollars. :eek:

[MountainMax]

Whoa! Fellas! I'm glad to see y'all defend'n the good ole system of free enterprise and capitalism. Yea capitalism!. Yes I too agree that companies and people like at edge do deserve to be rewarded for risk and entrepreneurship. My feeling is that as someone else stated, we're dealing with programming and a memory chip here. After R&D, startup, Advertising etc. there comes a point where profits can actually be increased by lowering prices and moving more units. In an economic model it's called the point of profit maximization. I only comment because that even though dollar per horsepower cost may be reasonable vs. superchargers and gassers, etc. Through technology, a new program can be introduced to the engine fairly economically. I feel it is just a matter of time before we see some price drops vis-a-vis the usual free market, wonderful capitalism models. I have other things I need to spend money on before I can justify $895+ and gauges. I am betting that there are alot of other D-Max owners that feel like I do. I just think considering production costs, that the company that provides good reliable power at a lower cost will end up dominating the market and in the end making more money by lowering the product price.

Until then, cudos to the companies that are developing power products. I look forward to doing business with one of them.

[imported_]

from a little peeking i will say this... with the connectors to our engine... the high qualitly aluminum case/(heatsink) and the guts that are there... you could buy all of the parts to make it for about 250.00 USD..... but you have to make your own new design of pcb to mount it on if you don't want the coyright cops after you.
next.....WHAT ABOUT PROGRAMMING?
edge is using sophisticated tuning (software) and some high quality EEPROMS....and i believe i see an RISC (reduced instruction processing chip) on board.... to monitor allison?...the engine both?...in real time..... my point is that it is a great product when it came out and it still is... the tuning market thrives on competition though so there will always be someone coming up with 'newerbetterfastercheaper'.... so thats my .02

[DMAX Daddy]

/agree 100% with Mountain Max

I can drop $895 for the program and either $279 or $449 for the gauge packages from one of two different locations, and even the more inexpensive place is $1174 before shipping.

If I could get it all for, say $999 delivered I would definitely buy sooner.

Im still curious why both places seem to sell the identical 2 gauge package with same gauges and same pillar mount and there is $170 difference. :confused:

***EDIT***

Anyway, I was going to mention the more powerloaders they sell, the more we would hear of the quality of the product, which means more people would buy it (if it was a good product). Right now only a few people around here have the programmers while dozens of folks have the Juice. I know The Juice is a quality product and the company stands behind it from what Ive read here. There is still uncertainty about the powerloaders.

[ 11-27-2002: Message edited by: DMAX Daddy ]</p>

[DMG]

In answer to your Power Loader concerns, all I can say about mine is that I am not up to Rev 4.61, no returning for reprograming, no fishbite, no defueling, no hard starting and no additional engine noise. Also it loads at the diagnostic port, thus no potential under the hood moisture related problems. It just does everything it is advertised to do.

Dave

[ 11-28-2002: Message edited by: DMG ]</p>

[NoMo]

As a first time diesel owner and "non-enthusiast", I have to agree with MountainMax. A price point closer to $500 would probably catch my eye- and open my wallet.

In addition, the product needs to be fully functional. While I'm sure everyone is happy with thier purchase, it seems to me that the consumer is doing a lot of R&D for these companies. I read about free "upgrades", but these aren't really upgrades at all. An upgrade adds a feature or does something better/faster. From what I've been reading, all anyone is getting for "free" is a FIX for a known problem. It's sad that, as a society in general, we've been convinced by corporations to feel lucky when we get "free" corrections to a faulty product.

I'm off my soap-box now. ;)

[Jimmy O]

DMG,

How long have you had the PowerLoader? Whitch setting do you use the most 30, 80, 120? What kind of MPG from this set-up any better than stock? Do you have gauges, if so what kind of temps in the 120 setting? Sorry for all questions, I can not make up my mind between a Powerloader or the Juice. Happy Thanksgiving. :D :confused:

[DMAX Daddy]

Same questions as Jimmy here. Do tell! :confused:

[kw]

OK OK All of you have your openions and they are great. But ........... What did you pay for your Duramax????? And you casn't find another $1K for the extra HP?

[mackin]

kw

I paid about $125 dollars A horsepower for my Duramax at the flywheel.....The HOT Juice box is $8 bucks a horsepower at the rear wheels....Cheap !!!!!!! LOL

MAC :D

[kw]

Mac,

Took me a minute, but exactly what I was referring to. I compare it to the HD family; you can't put a price on cool!

KW

[DMAX Daddy]

KW does have a very good point about the cost of power versus the original cost.

Lets says that the $1200 is about 3 monthly payments! smile.gif

[IndigoDually]

$400 a month payments would be nice. My lawn mower has $200 a month payments. :D

John

[ 11-29-2002: Message edited by: IndigoDually ]</p>

[SoCalDieselNewbie]

WOULD YOU LIKE SOME CHEESE TO GO WITH YOUR WHINE?

Seriously, I can't talk about the 'box' guys but it takes a TON OF WORK to reprogram a PCM correctly!

First, there isn't one program for each model year. In each model year, there are several versions of factory software and every truck has different options.

The good PCM guys, like Steve Cole of TTS, don't just make a few changes here and there.

1) they write a decompresser for the factory software

2) they then have to decifer the HEX and Binary code to find the fuel maps and etc... whose location might change several times.

3) they make three different sets of software... one for each power level.

4) they upload it into the PCM.

Reprogramming a PCM is a VERY individualistic process. It is why most of the PCM guys require a VIN so they look up the software version and option on the truck.

As for my truck, he wanted my truck because he had never seen a truck with that software and needed to figure out what all the settings for the options.

Oh yes, I almost forgot, the truck absolutely FLIES!

I have beat down several different vehicles... including a Full Bank's Power PowerStroke F350, a Full Bank's Power Excursion, a BMW M3, a Mustang SVT and a HOT Juiced '01 3500 from Utah.

Anyway... I think that I should have enough $$$ for my 19.5" Alcoas after Irwindale's 1/8th Mile Test N Tune night... Bring on the Ricers!