Lift Pump with Pre-Filter

[jbplock]

For those considering a Lift Pump, I posted some pictures (http://community.webshots.com/album/77018086bLHHHC) of the AC Delco LP with needle valve bypass regulator and Stanadyne FM100 30mu prefilter I’m working on. The design is basically the same as Tommy's but with the added filter. These AC pumps used on the 6.5 are known to fail possibly due to dirty fuel. So, the filter was added to protect the pump as well as off-load the big stuff from the OE filter. The assembly mounts to existing holes on the frame in front of the fuel cooler. Work is still in process since I’m waiting for one more fitting and I have yet to wire up the oil pressure switch and relay. Hope to complete this week. smile.gif

[56Nomad]

Nice work! Can you go with a taller Stanydyne filter
so you'll be able to go more miles without clogging?

[chuntag95]

I know there is a larger filter for this head. You can also get 10 and 5 micron, not just the 30. You can get heaters and blah, blah, blah....
I am copying JPBLOCK, but I am waiting on my pressure switch. It will give me time to work on my mount.

[OC_DMAX]

Nomad 56 - I would suspect that since he is using a 30um filter (not a 2 um filter), it should go a long ways before clogging, even with the smaller filter size.


jbplock - A question or two. First, where did you buy the AC pump from and what is the part number? Are the other components you used fuel type parts or are they just generic brass plumbing type parts from a hardware store? Lastly, on your Kent-Moore fuel gauge, did you order it from Kent-Moore or is there another place one could purchase it from? As time free's up for me in the summer time I plan on undertaking the fuel filter project. The method that "abear" and yourself have come up with (very low pressure fuel pump) makes the most sense to me. Thanks in advance for your reply and for taking the time to post the pictures on the web.

Regards,
Alan

[jbplock]

56Nomad,
I’ll check into the larger filter, I didn’t realize they made a larger one. As Alan said, I’m hoping it will go for a while (10kmiles?) being that it’s 30 a micron element. It’s mainly there to protect the pump.

Alan,
I got the AC pump from JK. PN is EP158 (GM 25115224). I believe the newest version is EP309 (GM 25117340). I got most of the parts from MSC direct and they are a mixture of brass and steel (Weatherhead & Parker). I followed Tommy’s lead and also used Parker CPI tube fittings for the steel lines that connect to the pump. I have a parts list in Excel format that I plan to cleanup and post when I get everything done (and working). I can also email it to you (address in my sig). I did get the Vac Gauge directly from Kent Moore (very good service) but it wasn’t cheap. Best bet would be to go with JK’s new gauge. If you want a Kent Moore you might also try contacting DmaxAlliTech.

Also, I updated the pictures (http://community.webshots.com/album/77018086bLHHHC). I was able to get the pump mounted on the frame today. All that’s left is to wire up the OP switch and relay, then connect the fuel lines. (Fingers crossed… hoping everything works)

[GM Smitty]

I'm interested in the difference between the two pumps. Checking GMPartsDirect, the newer version runs about $30 more ($90 vs. $58).

Josh

[smitheb]

Bill,
I would appreciate a copy of your BOM on your lift pump/filter when you get it finished. I may install my Megafilter after all. Ha
Earl
w4nbc@aol.com

[jbplock]

Josh,
I'm not sure what the difference is between the two pumps. I have a Borg-Warner fuel pump catalog and both AC numbers cross reference to the same BW number. I bought a new EP309 pump for my 98 6.5 just before I sold it and it looked identical to the EP158 I'm using. This might be a good question to post on the 6.5 forum.

Earl,
I'll post and/or send you the BOM (bill of material) once I get it cleaned up with all the latest changes (in a day or so).
smile.gif

[Kennedy]

Originally posted by GM Smitty:
Checking GMPartsDirect

Josh I often wonder why I even bother stocking any GM parts... :rolleyes:

[jbplock]

John,
I’m sure many on the forum would agree in saying that we greatly appreciate your contributions here as well as your providing a readily available supply of parts and “goodies” for our trucks. I personally don’t mind paying for top quality products and service!


Josh,
I found the following post on the 6.5 forum regarding the EP158 and EP309.

What is the difference between lift pumps? (http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002704)

In this thread member wfyehl posted the following:

"I did find some specs on the two pumps.

EP158 - 10-14 psi and 20 gal/hour.
EP309 - 10-15 psi and 32 gal/hour."

Seems like the EP158 would be all we need given the amount of "pull" from the OE LP.

Tommy, Chris, & Blake ... which pump are you using?

If all goes well, my install should be done today.

smile.gif

[ 06-20-2003, 05:35 AM: Message edited by: jbplock ]

[Kennedy]

Bill,

Not sure the exact reason, but a while back there was a recommendation made to me by a dealer to use the 158 on the 6.5. The reason was that it was SUPPOSED to be better as IIRC the 158 had more flow or pressure. Chances are, the 309 spec for pressure is high...

[chuntag95]

Bill,
I am using the one JK sells. It is quieter than the one we used for the bleeder pump. That one may have been enough to be honest, but I am not taking it apart to swap it and find out. :cool:

I heard what a DMAX sounds like hitting the rev limiter last night. :eek: Thank goodness it was warmed up. I was dinking with my pressure to get zero (PSIG) and wanted to see what happened at higher RPM. The wife was in the pool with my 2 year old son, so I got my every helpful 4 year old daughter to goose it for me. I guess Daddy didn't explain it right the first time :( and she pressed the go pedal to the floor and held it. :eek: I was screaming for her to let off and got a "What?" with her still holding it. Anyway, I got her to stop and cleared up the task definition. She did real good after that. I saw what a high idle and a couple of goosings looked like. There was little to no movement of the gauge. :D It appears I am following in abear's footsteps and I had NO air/fumes this morning from my drive to work. Zero, Zip, Zilch, Nada, Nothing but beautiful, clean, yellow #2 diesel fuel. Ahhhhh :cool:

[jbplock]

Finally Done! Lift pump and Pre-Filter are installed and working with NO AIR! :D :D

Pressure is running at .5 PSI at the Schrader valve test port as measured with the Kent Moore Gauge. A second gauge mounted on the MegaFilter Bleeder tracks the Kent Moore gauge (see pictures). It took three iterations to stabilize the pressure and get all the remaining air out of the system. The needle valve is just about wide open. The installation pictures (http://community.webshots.com/album/77018086bLHHHC) along with a schematic have been added to those previously posted. I’ll also post a detailed parts list later this week for anyone who is interested. Sure feels good to be done with this!

Side note. The restriction vacuum was 4inhg before switching to the Lift Pump. Maybe those who have run the Mega post OE without air have less restriction in their systems (??). All I know is … NO MORE AIR for me … just triple filtered fuel! :D :D :D

Chris,
Appreciate you sharing the story about your daughter helping you with the throttle test.. It still gives me a chuckle eveytime I think about it. Kid's are great!

[ 06-22-2003, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: jbplock ]

[YZF1R]

jbplock, nice job! Neatly done, quality components.

Steve

[jbplock]

Steve,
Thanks for the kind words!

A parts list ( page 1 (http://community.webshots.com/photo/77018086/78204546Wuvkwf) and page 2 (http://community.webshots.com/photo/77018086/78204764nfgMjd) ) has been added to the installation pictures (http://community.webshots.com/album/77018086bLHHHC/0) . If any one has any questions feel free to email me at the address in my signature.

So far so good with new pump and filter. I took another 50 mile trip today and still no air! Also, maybe it’s just my imagination, but the engine seems to run smoother and quieter too. Seems to start quicker as well. If my mileage computer can be believed, fuel economy is also higher. I’ll also be checking mileage the old fashion way at the next fill-up.
:D :D

[a bear]

Bill,Chris
I am also using the EP158 that John stocks. Your install looks great. I didn't check for gas in quite a while as I have become convinced of the lack of its presence and moved on to newer things. I also have noticed improvements in the starting, quietness, and mileage. It's also great to here that Yall aren't passing any gas. :D :D :D

[ 07-28-2003, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: a bear ]

[jbplock]

Update on pressure regulated lift pumps:

After initially installing the lift pump I ran about 500 miles with no air. At 500 miles I changed the OEM fuel filter. In the process of changing the filter I closed the bypass so I could use the full pressure of the lift pump to prime the system (which worked great). With the new OEM filter installed, I readjusted the pressure at the schrader valve for about 0.3psi using the Kent-Moore (OE) gauge. I double-checked and tweaked the valve a few times in the first 50 miles and checked for air - found none. I noticed that this valve setting was significantly different from what it was with the original OE filter, it but I didn't think anything of it at the time. Then, after another 1000 miles of driving, I get a no-start (??). :confused: When I got the no start, I re-primed using the lift pump and it started right up. I also noticed the gauge on the mega was running about 1.5 inhg of vacuum. When we returned to our Hotel I bled filter and readjusted (closed) the needle valve for about 0.5-1 psi on the mega gauge. The next day I completed the trip (500 miles) with no problems. When I got home the gauge was reading a vacuum again. I also found a significant amount of air in the mega-filter (about as much as I used to get with out the lift pump after 200 miles of driving). This time I used the Kent-Moore to adjust pressure at the Schrader for 0.3psi. I have since put on another 300 miles and the pressure is now stable and there is no air. :D

I contacted fellow lift pump users Tommy (a bear) and Chris (chuntag95) and coincidentally each had experienced some similar problems. Chris had just returned from a long trip and found his system had some air and was running in a vacuum and he also had to readjust for positive pressure. I believe the following reply from Tommy best explains the reason for this behavior.

"Bill;Chris,
I had a similar problem at first and this is what I found. Although I was told my bypass valve was compatible w/ diesel fuel my seat/seal began to swell which required me to begin to open up on the bypass to lower my pressure. Later after the seal finished swelling it completely melted away which required me to pinch back on the bypass to less than the original setting. It was at this point that I removed the stem and found that the seal/seat was completely gone. I now run it as is with out the seal/seat because it is used as an orifice and is not required to completely seal. The problem then went away and that was 7 or 8K miles ago. I think this may be yaul problem because not many seal/materials used in over the counter valves are compatible with diesel. My recommendation to a new installer would be to remove the seal all together

[jbplock]

Update:
I recently changed the Stanadyne 30 micron pre-filter and OEM filter to see how they were doing after 6.5k to 7k miles of operation with the lift pump. Both filters were cut open and the Stanadyne is noticeably darker than the OEM.

http://thumb2.webshots.com/s/thumb4/2/18/62/96621862mZbjHs_th.jpg
Stanadyne pre-filter - 7kmi (http://community.webshots.com/photo/83846161/96621862mZbjHs)

http://thumb2.webshots.com/s/thumb4/2/21/82/96622182DZxtHi_th.jpg
RACOR OEM filter – 6.5kmi (http://community.webshots.com/photo/83846161/96622182DZxtHi)

The darker color of the Stanadyne may indicate it is catching most of the asphaltines (?). Initially, I was thinking the Stanadyne may last up to 20kmiles but after seeing it at 7kmi I think I’ll be changing at 10k intervals along with the OEM. smile.gif

[SPICER]

jbplock, what is the oil pressure switch for? Is this a pre-luber? Please explain. I am among the technically challenged....Thank You...SPICER

[Kennedy]

My experience has been that the lift pressure is quite dynamic in that it will drop under rpm/inertial load.

My direct plumbed pump will cross over to vacuum under heavy load. This is measured at the Schrader port. I have yet to see any air in the Mega though.

I am still running hose around the 90

[jbplock]

Originally posted by SPICER:
jbplock, what is the oil pressure switch for? Is this a pre-luber? Please explain. I am among the technically challenged....Thank You...SPICER Spicer,
This setup is used to slightly pressurize the fuel system and prevent vapor buildup in the fuel filters (not a pre-luber). The OPS is wired to switch the (fuel) lift pump on only if there is oil pressure. It's main purpose I to prevent fuel from pumping in the event of an accident.

John,
Dittos