Cmon Juice Experts and Duramax Gear Heads

[thechevyhdman]

I really hate to say this but Juice cannot solve my driving in the rain issues.(no not fishtailing :D ) Everytime it rains and Im on the highway my truck dies.... starts knocking bad and just blowing bellows of white smoke..My gas pedal does'nt respond to my input and truck will just "hiccop" for 10-25 seconds on the highway. The noise the engine will make during this temper tantrum scares me away from using the Juice. I hate to say it because the company is just so top notch....but my truck, and its longevity matter to me alot more. I spoke with Juice and they said that out of the 6,000 DMAX boxes they made only a few have come back for the same reason. They honestly said"We cant figure it out"
Now this brings me to my second issue...I know of maybe 6 or 7 people that have had this problem along with me. Id just like them to come back to me and let me know some info on their trucks to see if there are any "similarities" of any kind. Like my truck was updated with the Lopey Idle issues. COuld their be something in that update that would screw up the Juice. It really just seems like a severe timing issue with my truck....I dot think their is any abnormalties besides timing that would produce so much white smoke. It was like a smokestack at a factory it was soo bad.

[thechevyhdman]

Opps hit my tab button and posted that thread but I wasnt done yet.
This problem has been occuring since I had the original 3.0 Juice in April of 2002. I waited to update until this past Oct when I turned in for 4.61 non hot Juice. Now before I totally blame this all on the Juice what are some reccomendatios on looking for a solution. Like I said before in previous posts its just way too much smoke and noise to be as simple as sucking in water. Or is it?
Now yesterday Ive noticed constant blue smoke coming from my exhaust at idle on the road. Not obnoxious amounts but alot more than it should for a truck with only 31,000 miles. Im religious on changing fuel filters this truck and 5 of our other diesels all fuel up at the same gas station. Its just got to be Juice. They are sending me another box...But I dont think its going to make a difference....My loyalty is to Juice but unless this gets figured out Ill be running stock. Heres a little more info in my truck.
Happens on highway
Fuel level doesnt matter
Always in the rain
Fuel filters are done every 6 to 10,000 its been only 3500 miles since last change
Pedal stops responding to my input
After smashing the go pedal a few times it starts responding
Upon the pedal responding I get a horrible knocking sound thats 3 times louder and more violent sounding then Pilot Inj shutting off.
Bellows of white smoke pour out so thick it is not translucent
EGT's go through the roof from 600 to 1000 for no reason
After 30 seconds truck remains normal
No moisture/wetness seen on Juice/wires/etc
My truck is always in L1 when it occurs....but I am always in L1 anyways.
Cmon guys help me solve this.
TIA Bill

[Kennedy]

Well, it is definitely a limited number of users that are affected like you said. Some initial speculation (by user's) is that the delay wiper function may be related to this, but nothing certain. Then there is the possibility that it is related to the specific module in use, and that trying a different module as you are doing is the next course of action...

Does your truck have EGR/catalyst? The NE US vehicles are getting them (just ask Toddster) so if you are not sure, please check...

[ 02-28-2003: Message edited by: kennedy ]</p>

[GMCTRUCK]

Not to step to the side of the subject but, my 03 doesn't have EGR or Catalyst. Does Toddster's?

[thechevyhdman]

My truck is an 02' non-egr version. As for Toddster and GMCTRUCK on their EGR...Mass/CT have different emisson rules/ options on GM trucks I think VT/CT are probably non-EGR and and MA/NY are EGR engines??????? Kennedy what in my windshield wipers may cause this......I tried using wipers because Ive heard that before but it didnt affect my truck at all, as in affect it when it rains. Their isnt another box/module out there that I will use...I just want Juice...Hope they/somone could figure this out......Bill

[Kennedy]

Nothing has been proven, but some have speculated that the wipers may have an affect on the trucks having problems. I have run in the rain w/o incident. The theory also is specifically directed to intermittent wiper useage by some.

Again, this is a theory and could well be coincidence or uniquely linked to the truck(s) or individual box(s) in question.

[Searay90]

A friend of mine has a 2002 Chevy Trailblazer that had a problem with the electric throttle pedal sensor problem that only happened in cold weather. It resulted in low power, stalling, but never set a code that the dealership could find. After three trips to the dealer, they decided to replace the pedal sensor assembly and it fixed everything.

Maybe you have a nominal connection or sensor that only acts up when the humidity gets to 100%??

[Rebel_Horseman]

Could the increase in humidity caused by the rain cause this. Here's my logic...the trucks computer is set up and used to dry "Yankee" weather (no offense ya'll). When it rains, the moisture content of the air being sucked into the engine is higher than the computer is used to seeing and it tries to adjust for it by ading fuel to burn off the moist air or defuling to prevent failure of the engine. Hence, the rough running, smoke, etc...

Hey that's my theory. Anyone with more experience have anything to say?

Reb [&gt;&lt;]

[Geerrhead]

Hi Bill,

I thought you were asking for me, when you said Gearheads, LOL! I could give you a technical way to find this problem, but I'm not sure that's what you are after. If you want, I'll help you. tongue.gif

[Brandenburg]

I had the problem with version 3.2 and 4.3. It hasn't rained since I've had 4.61 so I don't know if I still have it or not. It would happen to me as you describe but it was always after I was coasting with no throttle input for a few seconds and then gently rolled back into the throttle. I would press the throttle and nothing would happen so I press it further and then it does what you describe with the nasty noise and smoke and no power. I let completely off the throttle for a few seconds and then it is back to normal. This is usually always in level 4 but once when it started acting up I hit tow/haul to go to level 3 but it made no difference. Never got an SES because of it. I've had this happen when I didn't have the wipers on because the rain had stopped, but the highway was still wet. I had the latest updates installed about a year ago when the latest tcm update was released.

[KISMIF]

Ok at the risk of sounding like a total lunatic, tongue.gif here is my $.02.

Somewhere you are getting ambient humidity (moisture) into the computer system.

As this does not happen when running stock, I can only guess that the factory connectors seal each other well and do not seal the Juice quite right.

As an experiment, when the system is dry, wrap the connectors with kitchen plastic wrap.
Use say 4 layers with a good overlap onto the wiring harness.
Run electrical tape (or any waterproof tape) a few turns at the ends on the wiring to close off entry.

If the engine compartment stays cool enough not to melt the wrap (winter in CT, we should be ok) then give it a test.

Having worked with controlled environments for mainframe computers a long time (anybody remember punch cards and paper tape?), I have seen humidity or lack there of cause some really strange problems.

Might be worth a try. If it works I

[Brandenburg]

Did you seal the hi-idle wire you ran into the ECM? I didn't, could that possibly be a problem?

[GMCTRUCK]

Bill, when its not raining try using your wipers at intermitten or whatever setting you use when its raining and see if anything happens. Obviously clean your windshield and wiperblades real good first. I don't know what's causing your problem but, at least you can try to rule out your wipers.

[Kennedy]

I would also look at getting any applicable ECM upgrades for your vehicle. There have been some that mention improved "misfire detection" so there may be a weakness being exploited here.

[Kent Tuttle]

Mine went back to Edge this week for this problem. The box has V4.61 on it. I also drove the truck this week after I removed the Juice in the rain, wipers on and did not have any problems. I have found that the two times this has happened I was about a half hour into my drive to work before I had any problems. I hope this gets figured out, it's not the same truck without Juice :(

[thechevyhdman]

Allright news update. It happened again on Saturday night....and pretty much happened at a complete opposite it usually does. Went out with my father for a few beers Saturday night...left the bar and within 5 minutes of driving it happened again. Speeds were below 30 mph, light snow with wet roads. Started pulling a hill and pedal died....came back, sounded alot less violent, more like pilot inj. shutting off....returned to normal. So I am really starting to lean away from wet wires/sucking in water to MAF sensor failure. Now I know the purpose of the MAF is to adjust fuel/air mixture correct? Now that would also adjust timing in with that also? Correct?. Now if my MAF is going or is dirty from K&N oil would that be affected doubly when the humidity is 100 percent? I am going to swap out the air box from my 6.0 MAF and all and try it in my truck next.....But Am really trying to figure out if MAF problems could cause my Juice when wet issues....Also I use denatured alcohol to clean MAF sensor?....I think were starting to find the needle in the haystack now. Bill

[Billy14]

Maybe I'm Lucky,

Have Hot Juice 4.61.... normal level 4. The last 3 weeks down here have been miserable. 3-5 days of mist & drizzle with occasional heavier rain & humidity at 100%. One or two nice days then back to the mess. I use intermitent wipers all the time at different levels for hours at a time. Truck runs like a scaleded cat with the exception of the occasional slamming shift from 2nd to 3rd. Everything is stock with exception of the Juice.

Hope this helps,

Billy

[HoustonDMax]

Figured it was time I joined and tried to add something, as I have learned a lot from lurking. Took a few days, or I would have been more timely. I am the one JK referred to with the intermittent wiper theory. I started with one of the first non-beta boxes JK had last spring, upgraded to 4.31 Hot and then to 4.61 hot. From the get-go, I had three distinct acting up modes. All basically only happen at highway speeds, and only during light rain. 1&gt; loss of power, sounds like the motor is coming apart, smokes like crazy and then returns to normal; only last for a few seconds. 2&gt; no loss of power, but much louder engine; perhaps pilot injection shutting off or too much timeing?; have to shut truck off to get back to normal 3&gt; loss of power, electrical systems cycling and truck ultimately dieing; starts right back up and acts normal. I have been bugging JK and Edge on this since last summer; they really seem stumped. I moved the box, WD-40'd all connections and even installed di-electric grease on on the connections; made no difference. I am an Engineer by profession; as such, I started a log on all this when it first started. A couple of months ago it hit me that I was probably only using intermittent wipers (only happens in light rain) when it acted up. At that time, I decided to quit using intermittent wipers; since that point, I have not had it act up again. I passed this along to JK and Edge, with much skepticism (I would have done the same if it was presented to me!). I realize it could be a coincidence, as the problem for me has always been random. I could just be in an extremely long window where I am not having problems; however, it seems to be working for me. I would like to know if anyone else can duplicate my results, or do you have it happening when in intermittent mode? If my experiment fails, I will let you know. Sorry for the long message.

[Flyboy]

My guess is electrical noise from the wiper motor brushes or the control box. If it is from the wiper motor, a capacitor across the brushes may filter it out. I do not know what value capacitor to use, but I will try to find out when I get back from Daytona next week.

[Kent Tuttle]

What Houstondmax has described seems to be my same problem. Like I said earlier, since the box has been off I have had zero issues driving in the rain with the wipres set on intermittent.

[Kennedy]

I guess it sure couldn't hurt to add a ground strap from the existing one on the cowl to the engine, and MAYBE from the wiper motor as well. I haven't looked to see what is there for grounding except for the obvious one from the hood to the cowl...

[thechevyhdman]

JK and all When I spoke to Juice they stated they thought it was a problem with "electrical shielding" Now looking back I am sort of leaning to the wiper possibility too.
A few times it has happened when the roads are fairly dry, but still needed an occasional swipe of the wiper blades. I took apart my intake today to find any signs of water being sucked in etc...I found nothing. Now whats odd is how identical my problem and Houston Dmax's are. Except mine doesnt have the severe electrical problem (truck totally dying) My truck has never stalled or shut down except one time my brother borrowed my truck in the rain.
When it happened this past saturday not on the highway and not after a 1/2 hr(first time it ever happened off highway) of driving it happened it just got noisy...no smoke....that has happened as often as noisy and blasting smoke. Ill be running grounding straps like its my job tommorrow( A few days with no juice will do that to you) What I would like to take a step further is to give Houston my box and see if the problem happens to his truck also. And if and when it rains again up here try Houstons box also. Houston could you please give me some info on your truck
Model year
Build date
Modified Air Box?
Recent updates
Anything of any importance that could help narrow this down.
Also would you be interested in swapping boxes to test each others? I have 4.61 Non-Hot
Bill Please email me Gmanjr96@aol.com

[HoustonDMax]

thechevyhdman, further details on my situation. Happens on any level. Happens whether pulling or empty. The complete dieing has only happened three times; however, two of those three have been with the current update.
My truck is an '02, built in late January. Air box started stock, migrated to holes drilled and currently has a large triangle cut out of the front, with a few remaining holes across the rest of the front; acted up during all three air box incarnations. Last updates, which JK suggested after I first started having problems, were a good six months or so ago; at that time, dealer said ECM was current, but did upgrade TCM.
Edge and JK have both suggested I try a non-timing (4.35) box, which I have resisted as I don't want to loose the power I have come to like; I also have a buddy with a 110 HP Bully Dog that I don't want to get any closer to me.
On the grounding/electrical shielding, what I don't get is why I only have it act up in intermittent mode, and not in standard or fast speed mode. Someone will have to explain that one to me.
Since I seem to have a work around, I will stick with my box for the time being. From my correspndence with Edge, it seems as though they are slowly making progress, especially as more folks step forward with this issue.
I will send you an e-mail to carry this further off-line.
By the way, I have no problem with the way JK and Edge have handled this to this point. Having a problem that they can not duplicate is a tough one to solve. That is why I encourage anyone else having this type problem to communicate in detail your situation with Edge. Should help them figure out a permanent solution for all of us. I would certainly like to go back to using intermittent wipers.

[hoot]

How about repositioning the box? Sometimes these things act like antennas and moving them to a different spot or turning it 90 deg. can change the sensitivity to a particular noise source.

[Brandenburg]

HoustonDMax, have you tried driving around with the intermittent wipers on when it's not raining to see if the problem returns?

[HoustonDMax]

Hoot, I have moved the box, as well as changed its orientation.

Brandenburg, no. My problem is random; occasionally it occurs as soon as the truck warms up, but usually takes at least 30 minutes. Sometimes I went through days of rain with no problems. However, starting yesterday, I have gone back to driving with intermittent wipers. This should help me with my theory. If the problem returns, bingo. If not, coincidence? Problem is, Houston is no Seattle (for those that live in this area, recent weather makes us think we live in a different climate, though); it may take a while for me to be able to make a determination.

Will post back with results.

[dmaxalliTech]

there is a tsb pertaining to something similer,
I appologize for the long post, maybe related to your problem??


Decreased Engine Performance/Power, Filter Minder Indicator On, Possible MIL Illuminated and DTC P0101/P0103 Set (Replace AIr Cleaner/Reprogram ECM) #01-06-04-050 - (10/19/2001)
Decreased Engine Performance/Power, Filter Minder Indicator On, Possible MIL Illuminated and DTC P0101/P0103 Set (Replace Air Cleaner/Reprogram ECM)
2001 Chevrolet and GMC C/K Pickup Models

with 6.6L Duramax™ Diesel Engine (VIN 1 -- RPO LB7)

Condition
Some customers may comment on decreased engine performance/power on the above vehicles with the LB7 Duramax™ Diesel engine. The Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) may be illuminated with DTC P0101/P0103 set. The customer may also note that the "filter minder" on the air cleaner assembly may indicate the filter element needs replacing at very low mileage. These symptoms are more likely to occur when pulling a trailer on wet/slushy roads, but have been reported in heavy rain, at curb weight, during highway driving.

Cause
The LB7 diesel engine creates very high air flow under load. The primary source of inlet air to the engine is through the right front fender. The tires kick up water spray on wet roads which is pulled in with the incoming air from the right fender opening located over the front bumper. This ingested water may soak the airfilter element causing increased restriction. This restriction may activate the "filter minder". If the water continues past the filter, wetting the mass air flow (MAF) sensor, the MIL may illuminate.


Important
If the vehicle is being driven through snowy and/or slushy roads that have been salted, the MAF sensor may be contaminated with soluble road salt.


Correction
Install a revised air cleaner assembly, P/N 25345138, that has a lower incoming air velocity. Also, seal off the right inner fender panel air inlet holes and reprogram the ECM by following the procedure below.

Open the hood and install fender covers.
Remove the air cleaner assembly hose clamp from the ductwork.
Disconnect the MAF sensor electrical connector.
Remove the air cleaner assembly from the vehicle by pulling upward.
Examine the air cleaner assembly for signs of salt intrusion (white, chalky powder). If signs of salt are present, and the vehicle has set a DTC P0101 or P0103, install the air cleaner assembly by reversing the three steps above. Refer to the Engine Controls sub-section of the 2001 Service Manual. The diagnostic table for DTC P0101 or DTC P0103 outlines the testing procedure for the MAF sensor. If the diagnostic test indicates a contaminated MAF sensor (out of range), remove the air cleaner again and discard the complete assembly. Otherwise, remove the air cleaner and continue with the next step.

Important
It is critical that the surface you will bond the mastic material to be clean and grease free. Poor preparation could lead to the mastic coming loose and being sucked against the air filter element causing a poor power condition.


Clean and degrease the right inner fender panel around the holes previously used for air intake.

Important
Depending on the exact size of the mastic material received and the fasteners on the inner fender panel, you may need to trim the mastic material to achieve a good fit.


Apply the mastic material to the inner fender panel, completely covering and sealing the two holes that the original air cleaner snorkels protruded into. Make sure that the mastic is firmly adhered to the inner fender panel.
Remove the two fasteners retaining the MAF sensor from the original air cleaner and transfer the MAF sensor to the replacement air cleaner. If the MAF sensor was judged to be contaminated in step 5, install a new MAF sensor, GM P/N 88892543, to the replacement air cleaner.
Position the new air cleaner to the mounting tray and firmly seat the push-in retainers.
Attach the air intake hose to the air cleaner assembly and secure the clamp.
Connect the MAF sensor harness to the sensor.
Recalibrate the ECM with the latest update. The calibrations are available from Techline starting September, 2001 on the TIS 2000 version TIS 10/2001 data update or later. Refer to the Tech 2 user guide for specific reprogramming instructions when using the scan tool.
Remove the fender covers and close the hood.
Parts Information
Part Number
Description

25345138
Cleaner Asm, Air

88892543
Sensor Kit, Mass Airflow

25662607
Dampening Pad, Mastic


Parts are currently available from GMSPO.

Warranty Information
For vehicles repaired under warranty, use:

Labor Operation
Description
Labor Time

J5000
Air Cleaner - Replace
0.4 hr

Add
Diagnosis (MAF Sensor)
0.0-0.3 hr

Add
To Replace or Transfer MAF Sensor
0.1 hr

J6355
Powertrain Controller - Reprogram
0.5 hr




GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle

[hoot]

I swiss cheesed my airbox and used an Amsoil air filter. I still have defueling.

[Kent Tuttle]

I received the Juice box this past week and finally had a chance for a long drive today in the rain.(we get a little in CA) I'm happy to say that what ever Aaron did seems to have fixed the problem. Was on level 4, all at highway speeds, tried wipres in both modes, no issues. Was raining the whole time while I was on the road, quite heavy at times. Thanks Aaron for the fast turn around!

[Brandenburg]

Kent, is that a no timing box you have now? If so, how does it compare power wise. Can you tell much difference? Glad your problem is fixed! :D

[Kent Tuttle]

No idea if it is a no timing box, I have not talked to Aaron about it. It still says ver 4.61 on the label. The truck feels like it has more pep with this box than the previous one :eek:

[ 03-15-2003: Message edited by: Kent Tuttle ]</p>