View Full Version : Oil Analysis
I changed oil in my brothers D/A last week; he had 23600 miles on the oil. I thought it was overdue to say the least, so I took an oil sample and sent it in to see how bad the oil was and if there was any damage to the engine. I got the oil sample back today and to my surprise it said no corrective action required oil is suitable for continued use.
With the above and other oil sample I have sent in on different vehicle, I'm convinced that it is safe to run oil longer than what the oil co. and car manufacturers recommend. I think they have us all brain washed with their recommendation and commercials. I remember the 3000-mile oil change was recommended long before I started to drive several moons ago. Seems to me it's pretty pathetic that they (oil co) are saying they haven't improved their products in that many years. That goes for the engines and air filters also. If we can safely run oil for 10000, 20000, or even 30000 miles why don't we. I know why; it would cut in to the big oil co bottom line, so they make sure they scare the h%$l out of us so we keep using there oil. Just think we could cut down on our dependence on foreign countries and save the environment from gallons and gallons of used oil, and save money in the process. That
And The Wheels On The Bus Go Round And Round .........Round And Round .... Round And Round........
And The Wheels On The Bus Go Round And Round.....
All ,Day ,long ..............
That's a lotta of miles . What kind of oil?
:D :D :D tongue.gif :D :D :D
MAC
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>
AlaskaDmax
05-21-2002, 16:32
You are probably right.
BUT____After so many years of being brainwashed it is hard for us common folk to get over the mental image of our vehicles seizing up from not changing the oil every 3000 miles...just a big mental hurdle.
Amsoil 5W30 heavy duty diesel.
LanduytG
05-21-2002, 19:44
Zap
Thanks for the post and comments. I have been trying hard to get people to do this. Some have and some never will. The 5W-30 is good stuff and about 75% of my Dmax customers are on it. Does he do any heavy towing?
Greg
GM doesn't recommend that viscosity do they? Will in the warm months anyway ......... I'm running AMSOIL so I'm not looking to be sold on it ....... Thinking about switching to that viscosity this winter although ...... How are the PSI readings ?.......
MAC :D
Greg, he is a contractor and does tow with it allot, usually short trips 20-50 miles. I'm not sure what the tow weight would be either, I'm guessing in the 10,000lb range.
Mackin, I checked with Amsoil and they recommend there 5W30 said it was there best diesel oil. I also researched it with others, they explained that 5W30 will get rid of heat quicker than a 15W40, diesels run cooler, and the Amsoil will not loose its viscosity anywhere near as fast as most conventional 15W40 weight oils do. The 5W30 will also give easier starts in cold weather supposedly better mileage and most importantly will flow through the engine much quicker on start up there-by protecting the engine quicker. From what I've learned most wear comes from start up and not from oil with a light viscosity and the 30 weight is not that far from a 40 weight.
TURBOJOE
05-21-2002, 22:38
I sent my oil out for analyzation. Results are as follows
Iron-24
Chromium-1
Lead-13
Copper-44 ====
Tin-9
Aluminum-3
Nickel-1
Silver-2
Silicon-29 _ _ _
Boron-7
Sodium-7
Potassium-3
Magnesium-67
Calcium3117
Phosphorous-1498
Zinc-1443
Molybdenum-1
Fuel-A
Water-less than .1%
Glycol-no
visc. 100c-14.1
LEGEND:
==== symbol means "caution"
- - - symbol means "slightly above normal"
It also says "copper high indicating possible bearing or thrust wear. Copper may also be from cooler dirt level being slightly above normal."
"Change oil and filter if not already done."
The oil is Amsoil 15-40 Diesel oil. Started using Amsoil at the first 500 mile change. Baldwin filter. This oil had 4000 miles on it.
What are your thoughts on the copper and silicon levels?? Anything to worry about? Thanks in advance. :D
How many total miles? I am assuming 4500? The silicon starts high then drops. Mine went from 68 to 8 over the course of 4 fills and has stabilized. I am curious as to whether we can drop this in 4 fills in 1000 miles (frequent dumps) or if it is more of a time release thing where it works loose. Had it not been for the high silicon, I would have changed to the Amsoil sooner myself. From 25 miles if it were practical...
Every Dmax (and 6.5 for that matter) oil sample that I have seen starts high on copper then gradually drops. I attribute this to wrist pin bushings as the likely source. Just breaking in IMHO.
Your numbers look correct. As the diesel gurus here suggest the first several oil changes should be around 500mi and then maybe 1000mi. So one might want to wait on the pricey synthetics till the engine dirt is flushed out. ;)
I've been running the 5w30 for some time now. It was hard to bring myself to do it, but analysis says all is well!
Oil (petro) is quite inexpensive insurance. I will likely NOT run the 5w30 past 10k, but at 6k, it is looking excellent at <.1% soot!
Consumption is nil at MAYBE 1 pint per 4,000 miles of hauling ass!
SoMnDMAX
05-22-2002, 01:02
Kennedy sez- quote- "Consumption is nil at MAYBE 1 pint per 4,000 miles of hauling ass!"
That's excellent oil mileage considering how John drives.... tongue.gif :D tongue.gif :D
:cool:
I've started running my Delo 15w-40 Dino to 4K miles now... No gain in soot levels (still under .1%), so the next change is going to 5K, and if the tests show good, I'm going for 6K. Of course, then it'll be close to winter, then it's 5w-30 Amsoil time.... I'll run 5w-30 in the winter, and 15w-40 in the summer. I can't stand running the thin oil in summer. Call me old fashioned or narrow minded, but it just bugs me. ;)
SoMnDMAX
05-22-2002, 01:07
These numbers pretty much mirror my numbers. I don't have the sheet handy, otherwise I'd post them.
You'll see a decline in copper content as the engine breaks in. You'll also see a drop in the silicon levels as the engine "cleans" itself, unless you install a K&N, then the silicon levels will stay somewhat high (15-16 PPM). With an Amsoil filter, my silicon levels are around 4 or 5 PPM in 4,000 miles. With the K&N, my silicon levels were hanging around 15-16 in 3,000 miles.
TURBOJOE
05-22-2002, 07:58
The truck has 9500 total miles now. I changed as follows in miles.
8-500-factory oil
501-5000-Amsoil
5001-9000-Amsoil-this was the oil sent for analysis.
I am curious to see what interval I can change the oil in. Based on what I've read from the board and what was just replied it seems initially until the truck is fully broken in that shorter milage oil changes would be better. Once the copper and silicon levels drop I want to try and go 6000 or so and see what happens. Does this sound about right? Changing Amsoil every 4000 gets a bit pricey. I could maybe save 1 change a year by letting the oil go a couple more thousand. I plan to drop the oil at 13000 and see what happens. Thanks :D
[ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: TURBOJOE ]</p>
01_Duramax_Dually
05-22-2002, 08:53
I agree with Kennedy,
All appears Normal, The Cu is probably wrist pin and thrust. As for the Silicon, I have usually attributed that to valve springs and it subsides. I have not analyzed my Dmax oil and most likely will not but this is what I get from the race motors when Kendall analyzes my motor oil.
I would recommend an oil and filter change then Relax :D and drive that thing. Remember this, analyzing things is fun but can add extra grief to a daily driven vehicle. I have personally found that I would change synthetic oil around 10K -12K miles regardless but people will argue this point saying with proper analyzing techniques you can get 20K or more. However unless you have tons of time and are trying to get every last mile out of 10 qts of oil I think the ROE (Return on Effort) for the general consumer is marginal at best. Plus all the stress of seeing a slightly high reading of something that could or could not be a problem.
My.02 worth...
on Edit, Hey Turbojoe, saw you have a 10.5 car in your signature. I run in an Heads Up 12.5 wide max ET Street tire class. What's your car run? What's your weapon of choice in regards to power adders? Always like to chat racing...
[ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: 01_Duramax_Dually ]</p>
george morrison
05-22-2002, 15:41
By 10,000 miles and this many changes I would assume the dirt would have been flushed and lower. From the Duramaxes I have seen at 10,000 miles, this has been the case. My own Duramax, for example, at 4500 miles is showing a 12 silicon, with corresponding single digit copper.
Given the relatively high reported dirt, a close examination of the induction system would be in order and that the air filter is clean, well seated. And changed, if need be. If the air filter is dirty, the engine WILL find a way to get air, unfiltered, of course. (hopefully this truck is not K&N'd.)
George Morrison, STLE CLS
TURBOJOE
05-22-2002, 16:30
I'll post and compare at next change. Thanks for everyone's input.
01-D-MAX-Dually, the 69 is just about done. I had a ladder bar and coilovers put along with an anti roll control for the body roll.
The 525' is just getting freshened up and dynoed. It should make 850 or so. I haven't run the car yet, I just bought it over the winter. I am planning on running Pro Stock in the Edelbrock Pro deal. Here's a link to the class I want to run in.http://www.fasteststreetcar.com/prostock.html.
I don't think I'll be done for the first event. I like the NA classes and if it doesn't work out, SPRAY IT. As far as power adders goes, that's a tuff one.
I have used N2O on previous cars with great results and I have already put a fogger on my manifold for this car when I get it sorted out. I still say for a carbed car, it's the best bang for the buck.
Superchargers are definately making some power but I really haven't given them a good looking at. Procharger is doing some impressive stuff though.
Turbos, I think are the way to go. I had a 87 Buick Regal Turbo T. Now that was a fun car. That car ran on pump gas 15 lbs. boost and Et streets 11.9 at 12.0 at 113-114. Man was that car fun, nobody new what hit'em. Look at most of the Ford stuff like pro 5.0 and these guys are haulin ass.
Overall for me now I like nitrous. Both for the simplicity and cheaper cost. However, if I had the cash a grasp on DFI I would build a turbo car. You can screw up a turbo small block 350 and still make 800-900 HP and drive it on the street!!
ChevysRus
05-23-2002, 11:43
hey, i also received my first oil analysis from AVLube and results were normal as follows:
Iron = 7
Chromium = 0
Lead = 1
Copper = 12
Tin
ChevysRus
05-23-2002, 11:56
Sorry, it went before I finished (no comments about that please)
Hey, I also received my first oil analysis from AVLube and results were normal as follows:
Iron = 7
Chromium = 0
Lead = 1
Copper = 12
Tin = 3
Alum = 3
Nickel = 0
Silver = 0
Silicon = 6
Boron = 136
Sodium = 8
Potassium = 1
Magnesium = 865
Calcium = 472
Phos = 1462
Zinc = 1414
Moly = 2
Fuel = A
Water = <0.1%
Glycol = N
Visc 100c = 13.7
The mag thru Zinc numbers are additives in the oil, not meltdown of components LOL
This was last oil used by dealer, suppose to be Citgo 15w-40. I am now using Mobil Delvac 1300S 15W-40. I will change it at 5K and send it in again for analysis to see if any differences.
Truck had 15K at time of this change and oil has been changed every 3K faithfully up to the 15K mark. Now on the 1300S and 5K intervals.
Wish me luck
george morrison
05-23-2002, 17:47
Your analysis from http://www.avlube.com/ looks excellent. All parameters, with my favorite subject of silicon (dirt) being an excellent single digit which translates into minimized component wear. With the increased anti-wear and detergency package of the Mobil 1300S, it will be interesting to follow its affect on your wear numbers.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
TURBOJOE
05-23-2002, 18:55
ChevyRus, I noticed you have a few more miles and oil changes under your belt. I'm hoping my results will look similar in the future.
What kind of air filter do you run? I'm using the K&N, possibly another contributor of dirt! ;)
ChevysRus
05-23-2002, 22:43
TurboJoe, thanks I am running the stock GM filter so far waiting for something better to be on the market. I did get a new airbox (2002 model) and got rid of the stock 2001 model at about 10K. Of course it came with a new stock filter ha ha ha So maybe soon somethoing will be out there that everyone will love as much as they seem to love the Juice box.
Thanks George for taking a peek at the numbers.
Everyone have a great long weekend
I have some questions about the oil analysis. I know some guys who have used diesels hard for years, who've never had an oil analysis done, and had excellent service out of their truck(s).
Is there any documented correlation between increased silicone levels (and the other "bad" stuff) in oil samples and increased wear on the engine? If so, how does it correlate? What is the overall effect on performance?
For such a test to be valid, there would need to be tear-downs accomplished at various intervals. Things like the wear of rings, cylinder walls, and bearings would have to be compared between a low silicone motor and a high silicone motor, operated under the same conditions. Also, oil-pressure, power output and mileage would need to be recorded and compared between the two motors.
Is there anything like this out there? Or is this more along the lines of "use my special insecticide and you won't have anymore problems with elephants in your back yard?"
Blaine
Well, we'll see if George chimes in here:
He just got done doing my ferrography after 17k of service on an Amsoil air filter, and 10k on the 5w30 oil. We are still waiting on the particle count, but the ferrography shows EXCELLENT results in terms of silicon.
As for the effects of silicon, just imagine dumping in a handful of sand. :eek:
Silicon, accompanied by elevated wear metals shows what is happening. I've also recently learned that spectro analysis is only a VERY general indicator. The big stuff does NOT show up...
John, where is the best place to get your sample tested and who supplies the kits?
Thanks
george morrison
07-17-2002, 07:30
As John has indicated, there is a direct correlation to dirt intake and engine/component wear rates. One teaspoon of dirt can completely destroy a large V-16 CAT engine so imagine the affect even a small dirt ingestion can have on our small engines.. Dirt is rather like a silent killer in that in many cases the induction leak enabling the dirt intake may not be readily visibible (in fact at times *very* difficult to find!) and oil analysis is the only way to find out what is happening. Additionally, oil analysis can give early warning to leaking head gaskets, cracked heads, anti-freeze contamination, before it causes catastrophic damage. Same with a bad fuel injector; oil analysis will catch that before causing damage, yet sometimes difficult to discern driving-wise with our computer engines. The list goes on and on.. Basically the most inexpensive insurance one can buy for one's engine plus when it comes to re-sale, having an oil analysis history eliminates a lot of question for a prospective future buyer. One of the banner's on this page is for avlube.com which has the regular spectrographic oil analysis kits for around $15 or the complete ferrography, particle count, etc. for $90. There are other people on this board who have them available also.
I review a little over 100 oil analysis results a day for companies I work with whose liveleyhood depends on engine and component availability and longevity. Without oil analysis, it would be like playing routlette, next to impossible to catch problems before they become failures.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
oneton,
I have a history with www.usoil.com and their analytical labs. Kathy is great to deal with, fast and friendly, and kits are free. Just pay for the anaylysis.
Amsoil has their Oil Analyzers lab as well. They sell the kits cash up front with or w/o postage.
That said, after talking with George in detail about these things, I am heading his way as he can explain things like no other. This means a lot to me, and whenever I can learn...
Take particle counts vs. ferrography as an example. I failed an engine where the cam bearings went out. The spectro-analysis showed nothing unusual, BUT I could actually SEE the chunks. This is because they concentrate on the teeny tiny stuff where the ferrography looks for all the stuff.
A std analysis runs around $15 where a ferrography is about $90, but given the detail, it's worth every penny IMHO.
FWIW, my soot showed extremely low on the last spectro-analysis, BUT the ferrography showed large globules in the +5 micron size range. The good thing is, tey did not hurt anything as the wear metals stayed low...
On edit: I did not read George's post (cost etc) prior to making mine...
[ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: kennedy ]</p>
Hi John,
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but as a general rule of thumb, how often do you have the oil analysis performed and with the use of Amsoil 5w30 oil what has been your regular oil change intervals? I noticed that in your earlier post it was 10k before you had the analysis performed.
George,
I understand dirt will ruin an engine. The assumption seems to be the amount of silicone in an oil analysis indicates how much dirt is in the engine.
My question is what levels of silicone in an oil analysis have been shown to cause engine damage? What examples are out there showing this correlation, and what conditions were these engines operated under? What was the data used to come to these conclusions?
Blaine
CSDMAX,
I have sampled and changed at 1,3,5,7, and 17k. The last 10k run was with 5w30 Amsoil. The Amsoil sample is the first one that I have had a ferrography done with. We are still waiting for a virgin oil sample to arrive at AV Lube for a baseline on the particle count.
I now have Delo 400 in, and will change at 3-5k, then run Delvac 1.
george morrison
07-17-2002, 21:01
A large amount of dirt (silicon) can destroy an engine. An elevated dirt level will simply accelerate the rate of wear. Minimal dirt will enable the least amount of wear to occur in an engine. There is no "graph" or direct correlation as some engines are *very* sensitive to even small amounts of intake dirt (2 cycle Detroit Diesel engines were very easily damaged) and then there are some areas of the country where the intake dirt is much more abrasive than others. In other words, this is not science in its relationship. Conversely, as John has pointed out, there are inherent limitations with spectrographic oil analysis in that it looks at the 0 to 5 micron size range. If we have contaminants larger in size it may not be reflected as elevated silicon level, yet the accelerated wear will be reflected in the report. I look at over 100 oil samples results a day and still need to have brain storming sessions with other engineers at times trying to decipher exactly what is going on in an engine or component.
Suffice it to say, maintaining the lowest level of dirt (silicon) possible will ensure the longest life of the engine. I always strive for single digit dirt levels, if possible..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
George,
Thanks for the info. Sound's kind of like not eating junk food. It's not an exact science how much healthier it makes you, but you never hurt anything by reducing the junk.
Next question, are diesels more sensitive to dirt than gas motors?
Blaine
OK time for all you oil guru's to help me out here. Did my first oil analysis on this truck and just received the results. Analysis says no corrective action required, but I want to hear what you have to say about these numbers... Thanx in advance.
iron-12ppm
chromium-0
lead-5ppm
copper-10ppm
tin-3ppm
aluminum- 9ppm
nickel-0
silver-0
manganese-1ppm
silicon-9ppm
boron-38ppm
sodium-1ppm
magnesium-59ppm
calcium-4339ppm
barium-0
phosphorus-1274ppm
zinc-1367ppm
molybdenum-9ppm
titanium-0
vanadium-0
cadmium-0
And just for the record, I already changed the oil and filter. This was AMSOIL 15w40 synthetic, tested with 8k miles on oil and 25k on truck. :confused: :confused:
LanduytG
07-18-2002, 19:32
Looks almost new to me. You changed out good oil. I would of changed the filter and gone on for another 7500 miles.
Greg
george morrison
07-18-2002, 20:11
Confirming what Greg has already said, analysis results are excellent. Good baseline for if you want to extend drain intervals, or just keep it at this level for a very, very long engine and component life...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
rvforfun
07-18-2002, 20:16
Greg & George
For all us slow people tongue.gif could you post a range of acceptable Limits (ranges) for Hosses results :confused:
Thanks smile.gif
Amianthus
07-19-2002, 07:59
Oil analysis doesn't really work that way. There are, what some would call, acceptable ranges. But being in those acceptable ranges may not necessarily mean that the oil is performing well, or that there isn't some sort of other problem.
Check this out. It's my oil sample history.
http://mousepadx.home.sprynet.com/oilanalysis.xls
I ran my oil about 7500 miles too long. But the sample results came back "within tolerances". Lesson learned. When hot rodding a diesel, you need to watch oil performance closely. As opposed to just meeting the specification limits.
Of course, Mr. Morrison has forgotten more about oil than most of us will ever know. So I'm sure he'll point out any flaws in this reply.
Maverick
08-15-2002, 21:37
OIL IS AMSOIL 3000 SERIES 5W-30. SAMPLE TESTED BY OIL ANALYZERS, SUPERIOR, WI
15,000 MILES ON THIS OIL.
PHYSICAL PROPERTIES:
GYLCOL-------NEG. Does this mean there is no antifreeze in the oil?
% WATER------0.05
% FUEL-------1.0
% SOLIDS-----N/A
VISCOSITY:
40 DEGREES---N/A
100 DEGREES--18.7
OIL DEGRADATION:
SOOT--------2.3
% OXD------17.8
% NOX------11.4
TBN--------12.0
TAN-------- N/A
SPECTROGRAPHIC ANALYSIS:
IRON---------80
CHROMIUM------4
LEAD---------24
COPPER------562*
TIN-----------6
ALUMINUM-----14
NICKEL--------3
SILVER--------1
MANGANESE-----3
SILICON-------9
BORON--------37
SODIUM--------6
MAGNESIUM----14
CALCIUM----4310
BARIUM--------0
PHOSPHORUS-1271
ZINC-------1351
MOLYBDENUM----0
TITANIUM------0
VANADIUM------0
CADMIUM-------0
RESULTS OF TEST INDICATE VISCOSITY IS OUT OF INDICATED GRADE
CHANGE OIL AND FILTERS, IF NOT DONE WHEN SAMPLED
RESAMPLE AT NEXT REGULAR INTERVAL
*COPPER PROBABLY LEACHKATE FROM OIL COOLER/LINES
I did change everything when I sampled. I guess this good Amsoil oil is not holding up. Whats up with that.
Need feedback please.......tanks alot. ;)
i am telling you get shell rotilla T. that stuff is great.
GMC-2002-Dmax
08-15-2002, 22:23
Maverick,
email with the address of the company you are using. I would like to get an oil analysis done on my 02.
Thanks in advance.
GMC
email me at : gmc2002duramax@earthlink.net
Maxxheadroom
08-15-2002, 22:37
Maverick
I sent your oil analysis sheet off to Dave at Performance Oil Technology, will have a response manana...bill ;)
Maverick,
I had my 5w30 amsoil tested at about 12000 miles.
viscosity at 100 C was 11.8 previous testing of the same oil was 11.6.
soot has been less than 1% on all test.
Oxidation was 7.8
%nox was 7.1
TBN was 12.3
I think I added 2 quarts makeup oil over the 12000 miles to replace what I drained out and from the filter changes.
No one added some other oil that you don't know about did they? You didn't add a quart of gear lube by mistake???
I haven't had any problems with the amsoil.
Your viscosity sounds way high. testing on 15w 40 showed a viscosity of 13.8, so if you are showing 18.7 I don't know what that would equate to. Did the oil look thick? Maybe this is related to your head gasket problem.
I remember some posts some time ago about the 5w30 turning to sludge if antifreeze got in it. Your test was negative, but it seems as if I have read some post about not being able to detect the antifreeze. Maybe someone else can add to this.
Definitly sounds as if you have a problem. I don't think the amsoil would get that thick unless something was causing it. Another oil might be worse.
Your soot seems a little high compared to all my test. Sorry this is all I can offer. Good luck!
They are telling you that your viscosity is wrong because 5w-30 is too light of an oil to start with. The lower number (5w) is not that important, but you need a 40 weight oil to protect your engine in high heat.
Use a 15w-40 conventional oil or a 5w-40 synthetic. Be careful that the synthetic you choose is a real synthetic and not one of the newer cheaters (Rotella comes to mind).
My next fill (if I ever find the durn oil) will be 5w40 Delvac 1. I will then run it for a long term analysis.
I think that the technical expertise provided by George at AV lube is well worth the expense of the sampling. If you want TRUE results, get a ferrography done. While the cost is about $90, it shows what is REALLY in the oil, and not just the "fines"
I believe my current recommendation for Amsoil users would be to use the 15w40 Diesel/marine, but until I run a sample with a 40w oil to compare, I cannot say there is a difference, only go by what I am told.
FightinTXag
08-16-2002, 08:47
Kennedy,
From Mobil's Delvac 1 FAQ:
22. WHERE CAN I BUY DELVAC 1?
Delvac 1 is available through our nationwide network of Mobil distributors in gallon jugs and 55-gallon drums.
We are gaining more retail distribution at truckstops and truck dealers every day -- and as you ask for the product, the truckstops will carry it.
Contact the Mobil Customer Response Center at 1-800-662-4525 for information on your nearest distributor.
ChevysRus
08-16-2002, 15:48
I went on line at www.mobil.com, selected Mobil Delvac 1 and asked for a list of dealers in my zip code. The web site came back with 4 suppliers.
One was about 5 miles away and I zipped up there on my lunch hour. Minimum sale is 1 case of 4 gallons about $88 bucks. I probably didn't get the best price as didn't use a company name or have an account. Next time!!
Anyway, changed from the Delvac 1300S with 5K on it and dropped in 11 qts. (yes mine seems to take 11 qts with the filter change) of the Synthetic Mobil Delvac 1 to get the oil level to the very top if the in range notch. 10 qts left the oil level down 2 notches still in range, but not full in my mind, so added another qt. Same thing happened last time. Full oil means cooler engine.
Drove to Reno for Hot August Nights about 250 miles and while outside of the truck getting a coke, I still hear the damn "TICK". I was hoping the Delvac 1 would solve that problem. 20K on the truck now, but it's a Timex truck, "takes a lickin and keeps on ticking" LOL
Anyway, will run this oil 7500 miles and change it and send it in to AVLube for analysis and see what's different about it other than $22 per gallon.
I could not stand to let my truck go 12K or 15K without an oil change, you guys who do that to save a few bucks are risking bigger bucks in repair cost, but it all depends on if you are keeping the truck or trading it in every few years doesn't it.
7500 is the max I am going to go between oil changes with the synthetic, 5K on Dino. I mean what the hell is the point,. Just so you can say you went 15K and the analysis is bad or good?????
We just got one of our diesel generators back from a rental customer with 2500 hours on it. They never changed the damn oil and filters. The valve train and rocker arms clogged up and no oil was able to circulate, burned up the whole valve train and head overheated. $3600 repair job they have to pay due to negligence and failure to perform maintenance. Sad part is it was under warranty, but rejected due no maintenance performed.
Anyway, that's apples and oranges and no comparison to our trucks except that sometimes trying to save a few dollars can end up costing you a lot more.
Happy Motoring
Maverick,
If I lived in Alaska, I would certainly use the 5w30. A 30 weight oil probably covers the temperature range you operate in most of the time. I don't think you have a problem with the amsoil. Having read your other post and problems, I would think the two things are related-- I guess this is in the same truck? My understanding is that your oil has thickend up for some reason. Its not to thin. The lab is not going too tell you that you are using too thin of an oil. They will only tell you how the oil compares to what you told them it was. A multiviscosity oil actually changes with temperature. So they test it at 100 degrees c which would be testing the 30 weight rating and not the 5 weight. There may be something in the oil not covered by the test. Maybe you should call the lab and see what they say.
Ken
LanduytG
08-16-2002, 20:06
Maverick
Something is really wrong here. The % of OXD or soot level is not that high for the viscocity to be a 50 weight.
But if you look at the fuel its 1% now that IMHO is high and I would be looking for and injector leak or something.
The copper level has me wondering as well. I really feel you have something series going on here. Do you still have the old oil you drained out? If so hang on to it.
As for the 30 weight not being heavy enough thats not true. I have a customer with a Duramax that pulls RV's out of northern Indiana and has over 50K miles on his 5W-30 and looks great. His soot level never got to 2% till 45K miles and % of fuel is less than 1%, and % of OXD was only 14.4. All other wear metals are well with in limits.
Didn't you have a problem with anti freeze lose a while back?
Greg
I'd have liked to see a ferrography on that oil. Sounds awfully heavy.
The copper sounds like wrist pins. Let's hope not...
I had a fair amount of oxidation/black oxides in mine. Will be interesting to see how the 40w compares...
george morrison
08-16-2002, 21:33
From a lube engineer's perspective, one very important aspect of engine oil function in a diesel is to provide "cushioning" at bearing interface. As the name diesel implies, during the power stroke, diesel fuel literally explodes, producing a violent reaction. As opposed to gasoline engines where fuel "burns" yielding a much softer power stroke. The explosive energy from diesel fuel is in turn relayed through the piston, connecting rod bearings and crankshaft main bearings. At this moment the oil film is the cushioning agent, the component that makes all this work smoothly. If oil film fails, we have bearing face rubbing bearing face and accelrated wear. There just isn't a substitute for viscosity and film strength in a diesel for this job.
20 years ago the majority of Cummins and CAT diesel engines used straight weight 30W. When 15W-40 diesel oils were developed, engine and component life dramatically increased from 30% to 50%. Film thickness... Combined with cold weather oil flow combined to decrease the shock loading for bearings and provided longer life.
We are keeping metal away from metal with an oil film. The thickest, optimum viscosity oil film with the strongest film strength will provide the maximum distance between meta/metal and best cushioning... It is that simple.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Maverick
08-16-2002, 23:18
Some of you touched this a little.
Can anyone tell me what looks out of line, not normal for this engine and oil.? I have no idea what 18.7 means as far as vis. What should 5w-30 be at at 100 degrees? Is the 18.7 being compared to the 30 in 5w-30? I thought the higher the number the thicker the oil. 50 weight is thicker than 30 weight. 18.7 would be really thin right? I don't know how to read these results. Just highlight what does't look right. Thanks.
SoMnDMAX
08-16-2002, 23:40
Jeff, for reference- My test results see a copper level of about 7-9, an iron level of 5-6, a lead level of 4-5, and viscosity of 13.7-14.7. Fuel levels are always under 1%, water is always less than .1%, and soot is always less than .1%.
This is with 15w-40 Dino oil, at 4,000 mile intervals.
I think you've got something wrong... Those copper and iron levels scare me!!
Would Dexcool have this effect on the oil?? What about the dye used to do the leak check??
[ 08-16-2002: Message edited by: SoMnDMAX ]</p>
Maverick
08-16-2002, 23:47
Thanks Matt.
Ok now what!? What do you oil guys suggest I do now beside a $90 test? Run it till something goes?
[ 08-16-2002: Message edited by: Maverick ]</p>
The first think I would do is switch to the right oil. Look at your owners manual and you will see the correct oil you should be using. If you have an '01 there are errors in the manual about oil usage that are corrected by a service bulletin... contact your dealer for a copy. Surely you don't beleive that salespeople on a message board know more than the manufacturer about the correct oil for the Duramax do you?
The second thing I would do is switch testing labs. Your test failed to give you the necessary information to make an intelligent decision. I use Blackstone and they explain everything for you. If your copper and iron were high they would give you the possible reasons.
If you posted all the info. from your test it's a pretty poor testing facility that doesn't give complete explainations. You are buying their service as a complete package... not just numbers.
[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: csimo ]</p>
Maverick,
Go to this site if you want to get an idea of what the 18.7 means. http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/NewOronite/library/li_viscosity_motoroil.htm
I think some of you guys think that the viscosity is supposed to be the same number as the oil weight. This isn't the case. I think Greg is correct that the 18.7 would be the reading for a 50 weight oil. The chart at the above site would give you that information.
George, I'm no expert, but it sounds like you are tying thickness and film strength together. Maybe I am misreading your post. I don't believe that oil thickness and film strength are necessarily tied together. I believe water has a high film strength yet is very thin. I think you can have a thinner weight oil with a higher film strength than some other higher weight oils. Energy saving recommendations say to use 30 weight. There has to be a balance of all these factors together. Many of the modern engines with very small clearances will perform better and be better protected with a 30 weight than a 40 weight. The brand and design of the oil also plays a big part. Whats a guy to do??!~!! Just toooooo many choices!!
Maverick, I would keep your oil changed frequently until you discover what is causing it to degrade. You never did tell us the circumstances of your oil test. Was this the same oil you were running when you had the head gasket problem, or after that? or a different truck? How about previous oil test. One thing about the oil testing, is that it can show you a change over time. Did you do any previous test?
bbattrell
08-17-2002, 07:51
Here are some ranges from the back of my analysis
SAE ENG OIL MIN MAX
30 / 9.3 - 12.5
40 / 12.5 -16.3
50 / 16.3 -21.9
I know this dos't explain what they mean, but it shows where it should be
[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: bbattrell ]</p>
Maverick
08-17-2002, 20:48
csimo,
Give me a complete company name, address, phone #, and web address for this Blackstone. Thanks.
KenZ,
This was the same oil with the head problem. Never tested before this one.
Another question. Is it OK to dump this synthetic oil and put in say Rotella or Delvac again? I thought once you go synthetic you couldn't go back to regular oil. Could someone please clarify this. Thanks.
All the info on Blackstone can be found at:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/
You can switch from conventional to synthetic and back again with no problems. The claims that you can't go one way or another are just old wives tales.
I personally believe in synthetic oils, but I don't buy into the extended drain intervals claimed by some. I use Delvac 1 5w-40 full synthetic diesel oil and change it when the "change oil" light comes on. I send my sample to Blackstone and they usually tell me things are fine and I could have gone longer before my change, but then I would be violating the terms of the warranty.
Good luck!
[ 08-18-2002: Message edited by: csimo ]</p>
Maverick, sorry to hear about your engine problems. I hope all is well now. I want to comment about the Oil anylsis though. Blackstone has a solid reputation on the other forum, and what I like is the record they (and you) keep which helps spot developing problems early. They also reccomend fixes. The only downside is that they have to send a sample kit and all, which takes time, and time is money. Maybe a phone call would speed up the process. Good Luck.
LanduytG
08-18-2002, 19:19
Maverick
The lab you are using gives as much detail as Blackstone. I have sent a sample of the same oil to each and results were the same. You can change back to dino if you want but why? As for extended drains it has been done for years. We are not in the stone age any longer as some here would like to make you think. Oil technology has advanced greatly in the last several years.
Greg
Extended drain? Heck, just use SynLube once and you're done. They claim no oil changes for 10 years or 150,000 miles (you'd probably never make it that far using SynLube).
There are a couple out there that claim you NEVER have to change your oil again. Good for the life of the car (which won't be too long).
There's one brand saying they can go 410,000 miles before needing an oil change.
Sure... believe all the black magic! Their oil won't get dirty.
Use common sense folks... oil is supposed to get dirty and if it doesn't its not a good oil to start with (the ability of an oil to hold dirt in suspension is a quality of good oil). There are very few times we change oil because the oil itself is worn out, but rather we're trying to flush the dirt out with the oil.
Maxxheadroom
08-18-2002, 21:58
It seems we have people on the diesel forum living in the year 2002 and others living in the year 1962 and others that are not sure what year it is, LOL!!...very interesting wouldn't you say
I live in 2002, but 1962 was a better year... and better times in my opinion.
Yep, I've been around a long time. I've worked for two of the big three (GM and Chrysler) for many years (I am a graduate of the GM Institute and started working for GM when I was 18. I'm now retired). I've worked along side some of the best engineers in the world. I've worked with people such as as Bob Eaton, Ed Cole, and Lee Iacocca. I've asked many questions about all the oil wizardry to many of the best. They ALL say the same things.
When these informercials claim you can run an engine for hundreds of miles in the desert without any oil I don't believe them. Do you?
When the manufacturer sets a maintenance schedule for a vehicle I believe them. Do you? They have little or nothing to gain off the maintenance, but more research has gone into that schedule than all these snake oil companies have done since their existance.
When companies claim their oil is better due to one specific test (usually the four ball test which has absolutely nothing to do with engine longevity) I don't believe them.
When companies claim to be "first in synthetics" I don't believe them. Synthetic oil has been around before their guy was born. Friedel & Crafts invented synthetic base stocks in 1877, and Germany had several synthetic oil factories in WWII (not to mention synthetic gasoline and synthetic rubber). Members of my family bombed them.
Responsible companies that make excellent products (Exxon Mobil comes to mind with Delvac 1, but they're not alone) tell you that you can extend drain intervals but they recommend the manufacturer's service intervals. Good advice.
Some companies tell you it's OK to forget about oil changes. They'll pay the bill if it breaks. Check their record with the BBB or their state attorney general and you'll find the truth. Don't bet on their warranty or GM's if you don't follow the maintenance schedule.
All I'm saying is that it's easy to get caught up in this advertising hype. There have been excellent studies done on motor oils. The legitimate studies invariably show that a good quality oil changed per the manufacturer's maintenance schedule is the right way to go.
Use common sense! Here's a summary of a good truly independent 4,000,000 mile motor oil test. It's kind of dated today, but it does show what I'm talking about.
http://www.xs11.com/stories/croil96.shtml
LanduytG
08-19-2002, 06:45
csimo
On this forum as well as others you seem to have and ax to grind with a certain oil company. Sure synthetics have been around for a long long time. But who was first to make it for automotive use? It was not the Germans. GeorgeM will even tell you that the oil company you don't like as very good oil, the only thing here will disagree with is in which wait to use.
Greg
Greg,
Sorry but the Germans used thousands of barrels of synthetic motor oil in WWII. Nearly all vehicles on the eastern front had to use it to keep running. Germany had a large number of synthetic lubricants designed out the their lack of natural oil, and the requirement to have mechanical functions at very low temps.
The only ACTUAL claim AMSOIL should make regarding their "First in Synthetics" claim is that Amsoil was the first company to market a synthetic motor oil in the USA that met API standards. They have reduced this very specific "first" down to their slogan "First in Synthetics". They were not the "first" to manufacturer or use synthetic motor oil, and they are not the "first" in synthetic motor oil sales. A very misleading slogan to say the least.
I have said many times that Amsoil makes some good products, and some not so good products. Most are in the middle. The problem I have with Amsoil is the brainwashing they do to people like you and others selling their product. They throw lots of documentation that appears to show that every single product they make is the best in the world. To the uninformed it looks impressive, but to the informed it looks like fraud. I don't think you or any of the others are bad people for buying into this, but I do think it's wrong to spread that to unsuspecting customers.
For one example let's take the famous four ball test that Amsoil hangs nearly 100% of it's credibilty on when it comes to motor oils. The four ball test is a wear indication of metal-to-metal contact components. An engine (other than a few parts in the valve train) contains no metal-to-metal components and is designed to run with a fine film of pressurized oil between metal components. The four ball test is not an appropriate test for real world engine components but WOULD be a good test for axles, etc. that are not pressurized and designed to run metal-to-metal. If you replaced the Amsoil motor oil in the test with the cheapest GL-5 gear lube you would suddenly think that the GL-5 is 10 times better than motor oil. They are designed for different purposes, and the four ball test is not a valid test for motor oils (but it is great for gear lubes). The independent tests show it's in the middle like most others.
I would probably use a few selected Amsoil products, but I just don't know what to believe from them. Nearly every think they claim is in a very grey area and the more you investigate the more you find that their claims are twisted and don't pertain to the purpose of the product. Yes other companies do some of the same things, but not to the extent perfected by Amsoil. I don't like that and feel that I should point it out so people can make an informed decision. The data is out there for people to look at and I hope they look at it from ALL sides.
Greg I'm sure that you really do believe that every product Amsoil makes is the best in the world. Logic and reason tells me otherwise. As long as there are people like you and I to debate such subjects there can be nothing but good come out of it. Informed consumers are the best consumers.
Then you have the 1,000,000 mile stock 1995 Chevy pickup with a 350 engine that ran on Pennzoil regular dino oil.
Pennzoil gave the guy a brand new truck so they could tear the still good running engine apart and analyze it.
I run synthetic ATF, synthetic Diff lube and use synthetic chassis grease.
For the engine I just run a good quality dino cause I like to change it and stay visually clean.
Hey Maverick,
I've heard of analyzres re-running samples as in there is likely enough for a "second opinion" if you can get them to release it.
I won't even bother saying who I'd recommend...
GMC-2002-Dmax
08-19-2002, 21:46
Maverick,
Hope your truck get's fixed, you need that rig to run without a worry!!! Good Luck to you! ;)
Anyway, JMHO here, no one take any offense please. My last truck was a 1987 GMC Sierra 2500 no frills 4x4. I ran her from 1995 when I got her used with 70K on the clock and I sold her 5 years later with 247K. I never used anything other than mobil oil in the truck 5W40 in the winter and 10w40 in the summer. Plain old DINO oil at 2500-3000 mile oil changes. If I plowed a hard snow storm I would change it out the next time at half the mileage.
The truck is still on the road and last time I spoke with Dave he had 313K on her, still going strong. Tranny is GM's T400. Same tranny.
I am sticking with DINO in the Dmax, however I will most likely go to Synthetic for the Diff's and the transfer case. Still on the fence with the Allison on synthetic.
This post may have been a little off topic.
I am going to send for an analysis on my next oil change to see what's up.
Good luck again Maverick!!!
GMC ;)
FirstDiesel
08-20-2002, 04:23
I guess I need to ask a newbie question here. So you get an oil analyis and it shows something wrong. Coolant in the oil I understand you need to address. But lets say it shows some sort of high metal reading. What good does this do you other than make you worry about something inside the engine getting ready to break into 50 little pieces?? Your not going to rip the engine apart looking for the source of high copper or whatever are you??? So why do this and worry???
ChevysRus
08-20-2002, 10:45
First Diesel....hope you are not one of those guys who never goes to the doctor for a physical, because you don't want to hear something might be wrong LOL
The first oil change should show the highest numbers as all the waste and sand and crap from the casting and buildup are washed out. After that, subsiquent analysis should read normal. If they don't read normal it means there is something you need to keep an eye on (just like high blood pressure or high cholesterol). If subsiquent analysis (testing) continue to show no improvement or worse readings then further testing may be necessary. Unlike our bodies, these trucks come with a warranty and if you can document an issue, the dealer has to make it right.
Most major diesel operators (big rigs and heavy equipment operators) live and die by the maintenance schedule and oil analysis as the "early warning system" that something is going on and needs to be addressed. Our trucks are smaller, but the same principle applies. Periodic analysis (not necessarily every oil change, but some will do that)can be considered preventive care so that you can take care of a problem before it gets worse. Think of it like a clogged artery in your heart's pipeline, do you want to know about it while there is still time to do something about it or do you want to just fall down and die one day. When we die it's all over, but when our trucks breakdown, it's just expensive. So consider the oil analysis like a doctor's visit for a checkup once a year or more.
Enjoy that new truck and yes you will be doing new things that you never did before in your gasser. But that's what makes it fun, to learn new things and take better care of your investment.
Have a great and healthy day!
thechevyhdman
09-09-2002, 00:04
When gettinng oil analyzed what do you put it in, do you do when engine is warm, cold. Gonna get it done but dont know if I should ship it to h.o. penn or just drive up my sample myself. Thinking of using a tubberware container about the size of a shot glass or so, How much oil do they need for anlysis too? Just wannna make sure, takes a while to get 7,000 miles on a truck and I am interested in seeing how my K&N is doing with keeping dirt out. Do they check for dirt in oil or just do a chemical analysis?
DmaxMaverick
09-09-2002, 01:13
thechevyhdman
Most analysis kits come with a bottle to return the oil in. Several even come with a return envelope to mail it in.
Check out Amsoil or Blackstone labs online. Buy the kit and they come with all you need. Not too pricey, either.
Be sure to get the sample when the oil is warmed up. A fumoto valve makes it very easy to get a sample. Let a little run out first and then get your sample.
LanduytG
09-09-2002, 07:55
thechevyhdman
I feel the Amsoil oil analysis kits is the best for the money. For $14 you get the kit which includes sample bottle and postage paid mailer to send it to the lab. You will then get the report back and it will include everything you need to know. It even includes soot and tbn which most other companies do not include unless you pay more. By the way the $14 includes the shipping the kit to you.
Take the sample after you get home some evening while it is still hot. As stated above if you have a Fumoto valve drain a few ozs. out first before you take the sample. If you use a clean container to catch the oil in you can put it back in the truck when your done.
Greg
george morrison
09-09-2002, 10:37
Just to keep things balanced, another source of oil analysis kits ia www.avlube.com. The nice part of that kit is that you get me along with it! I get a back copy of the results so we can discuss them in detail. The lab is ISO 9000 and has no affiliation with an oil company.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Tinbender
09-09-2002, 10:53
George,
What's the cost from Avlube?
LanduytG
09-09-2002, 16:04
Yes OAI is owned by Amsoil, but I feel they are as good as any other lab going. I have checked out other labs with the same oil sample and results were always the same. OAI is also a modern new lab that is ISO certified.
Greg
thechevyhdman
09-09-2002, 18:37
Well I want Cat to do it, they give responses back in the same day, and I want someone thats nuetral to this subject. The only reason Im having it done is to see how well the K&N is doing, Im pretty interested in the results. A friend of ours works for Cat, maybe you see him in the H.O Penn magazine Jeff Nevesky, he'll give me the straight up answers. When we took delivery of our 2001 Cat, we had problems after 500 miles so as protocol, they automatically checked the oil, seems that GMC put the wrong viscosity fluid in from the factory, ended up being alot of junk In the primary and secondary filter, rubber filings from the hoses when they were made. Ended up costing us 900 dollars and GM hasnt covered a dime yet. Thanks for your replys. Bill
Paintdude
09-16-2002, 18:05
"silicon level slightly high..Check air intake (air filter,etc) for dirt leak..."
Silicon PPM 25..Should be around 20..
It has been real dry around here and I had the K & N filter in it for awhile also..I have went back to the paper filter...
[ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: Paintdude ]</p>
Paintdude,
You did not mention your truck's mileage or mileage on the oil. If this is your first or second change, it may be normal. Others have posted that the silicon levels on the Dmax tend to be high the first few changes, and then normalize - likely due to contamination.
Kennedy (and others) have recommended two or three quick oil/filter changes with dino to flush out the contaminants, then start a 'normal' oil/filter change schedule.
Depending on your Dmax mileage, the K&N may or may not be suspect...
Good luck.
Paintdude
09-16-2002, 20:43
First change at 1000 miles, oil and filter, then second change at 3000 miles..This was a sample from the second change..I will change it at 5000 or 6000 and check it again to see what the results are..
this truck just runs better and better.. smile.gif
Idle_Chatter
09-18-2002, 20:07
Well, I "captured" some oil in a clean bottle from my 30,010 change (6,950 on the oil)on August 18th and finally shipped it off to AVLube on Sept. 13th. Got my emailed results tonight: Wear->Iron-12, Lead-19, Copper-13, Aluminum-2. Contaminants-> Silicon-12, Boron-1, Sodium-6, Potassium-3. Soot-<0.1, Oxidation-11.0, Nitration-5.00. Glycol-0, Water-<0.1, Fuel-A (?) Report says wear and contaminants normal, continue normal PM and resample at normal interval. Good news as I'm on a 7,500 mile change routine and things look good. They did bust me on my additives, though: "Some additive metals differ from our baseline sample for this fluid which could indicate contamination with another oil, additive package change or depletion." Two indicated high, Calcium-3135 and Zinc-2051. I've been adding OptiLube for some time and this must be it. Great peace of mind for $19!
deerhunter7
09-18-2002, 20:54
Why the additive? What does this additive do or add that a good oil doesn't . The few independent
tests that Iv'e ever seen . Not one additive made any diffrence on wear or sludge and varnish build
up. I don't care what you use ,your truck and money. I never heard of this one. Mostly wondering
what their speal is and special ingredient..
Idle_Chatter
09-18-2002, 21:33
Well, deerhunter, I actually brought a bottle of it back from the 2001 Diesel Rendezvous and started using it in my 99 6.5TD Tahoe. They advertised here on TDP for a while. It's basically an oil additive that appears to be based in a 30 or 40 weight oil. The directed dosage is 1.5 ounces per quart initially and then 1 ounce per quart thereafter. I've been using it in the Dmax since day one. Looks like it adds Calcium and Zinc, huh? Those were the only two additives out of spec, Phosphorus scored normal at 1676, Magnesium at 16 and Molybdenum at 0. I thought that OptiLube seemed credible because they made no "miracle" claims or hype and were just sold and advertised as an oil additive and enhancer. I'm comfortable with that, and it looks to be complementing my Rotella-T. The anaylsis report states that my addpack doesn't match Rotella-T baseline (it's actually more in Calcium and Zinc) and only stated that there was "something else" there, not "something bad." Sounds like it's doing what it's supposed to do! My full analysis result is available (an Adobe *.pdf) in my Yahoo briefcase, the EXCEL SPREADS link in my signature.
thechevyhdman
10-01-2002, 18:10
Here it is its done.
Ac Delco Oil Filter Used
Last oil change 14329, K&N Cleaned
mileage 21853
mileage between oil change 7524-0
total hrs on vehicle 962.2
Oil Used Citgo Citguard 500 15w40
Meaurement in PPM
Copper 8
Iron 18
Chrome 1
Lead 0
Aluminum 1
Silicon 15
Molybendium 81
Sodium 4
Calcium 2353
Tin 0
Potassium 0
Magnesium 259
Zinc 943
Water Neg.
Fuel Neg.
Antifreeze Neg.
Soot 14% 100 % is Max
Oxidation 8% In percent of allowable
Nitration No response
Sulfur Products 6 In percent of allowable
Viscosity 13.1
Elevated Silicon Levels... Check Air Intake/Anti Foam additives in new oil.
More Samples Needed To Show Trend.
PS before anyone jumps me on High Silicon due to K&N use.. Dont forget I unknowingly used 3/4 of aeresol spray(Im used to the hand spray) Have another SOS test will be done next 7500 miles.
LanduytG
10-01-2002, 18:27
thechevyhdman
Other than silicon the numbers look good except for soot at 14%. I wonder what the real number is for 100%? Judging by some of the other numbers I would say that it is at 14% of some magical number, you should see what that number is. Normally if soot gets above 3% of the total they recommend changing oil. What lab did the analysis?
Greg
thechevyhdman
10-01-2002, 19:07
Greg.. Soot Indication of lugging over fueling air inlet restriction filter plugging or extended engine idling. Reported in terms of percent allowable 100% is the maximum normally allowable.
Caterpillars H.O Penn Lab did it for me for 13 dollars and they gave me one for free when I dropped off my sample. They told me that I shouldnt get my oil from the drain in the pan as it can sway and give false negative results.. I wasnt up for buying the pump to get it done through the dipstick
Idle_Chatter
10-02-2002, 19:20
"Don't get the oil from the drain - use a hose through the dipstick" (?!) Excuse the puzzled look, ChevyHDman, but the drain and the dipstick tube are the same oil out of the pan. I think what they wanted to say was not to use the first rush out of the bottom of the pan where stuff could have collected. I opened up the fumoto and let a good quart or so run out, then I rinsed out the bottle a couple of times in the continuing full-flow run before grabbing the sample. I guess this could be a problem if you're not sampling at an oil change, though! :rolleyes:
Diverguy
10-03-2002, 17:02
Hey thechevyhdman;
I get my SOS analysis done by Finning (Cat Canada) and I seem to be getting some extra element analysis that you didn't. I compared my recent test to yours and in addition to what you listed I also get tests for Nickel, Silver, Boron and Barium. Go figure...
NickLeinonen
10-06-2002, 16:16
hmm... there is a cat SOS oil lab right near my work place [at the croman facility of toromont cat] i wonder if i could get them to do my analisis. i can get oil sample bottles from work for free i think.... [hmm, the wheels are begining to turn in my head... :D ]
thechevyhdman
10-07-2002, 18:25
Idle Chatter on most recently produce caterpillar engines theres a drain or a valve that you get oil from for sampling that is protected from dirt etc.This valve has a dust cover to prevent any false NEGATIVE results. What I mean or meant to say is that taking a sample from your oil pan drain can sway results and be innacurate as there is a possiblity of dirt from the outside of the pan making its way into the bottle you are using as a tester. This would show more DIRT in your oil then there really is.They dont want any possibility of inaccuracy.. They would rather you take oil from up the dipstick as there will be no dirt etc to give bad results.
Idle_Chatter
10-07-2002, 18:54
Ahhhh, good precaution, chevyhdman. I sure have a lot of dirt and grit raining down on me and filling my nose, eyes and ears when I'm under my truck. :( I guess a "pinch" of that stuff in your oil sample bottle will sure drive up the silicon number! :eek:
biker Wayne
10-08-2002, 12:04
I'm considering changing over to synthetic motor oil, probably Mobil Delvac 1. I've got over 16K miles now. I intend on running 7500 miles between changes with the synthetic and many suggest to do oil analysis if running that long between changes. Here are some of my questions:
1) where do I get the oil analysis kits.
2) which company does a good job of interpreting the technical results and gives you meaningful info.
3) should I have an analysis done of my dino oil when I switch in 2000 miles.
4) doesn't the soot build up with 7500 miles between changes.
5) what about the acids that gassers supposedly accumulate if the oil isn't changed every 3 months. Do diesels build up acids after 3 or 4 months?
Sure am glad this forum exits to get good info.
Thanks in advance.
Diverguy
10-08-2002, 12:11
Your best bet is the SOS Fluid Analysis from Finning or Cat USA. You can register your pending samples on-line and view the results as well. If something is really awry you get a phone call. One of the members, George Morrison, also owns a lab which does oil analysis so you have a choice. Cheers
Vaughn MacKenzie
10-08-2002, 12:20
Wayne, I've used a couple of analyzers and have liked them both:
Oil Analyzers http://www.oaitesting.com/
Who I am currently using. Cost $14 each and includes postage
Blackstone labs http://www.blackstone-labs.com/
Used them in the past, cost a little more but you have to provide postage.
7500 miles is a good interval to start, but as you get good results coming back you'll feel comfortable stretching the interval to 10k, maybe 20K like I do.
My soot has always been under 1% after 20,000 miles with Stage 2 Diesel Dynamics injectors.
Vaughn
george morrison
10-08-2002, 15:23
As previously posted, http://www.avlube.com/ has oil analysis kits available on line. AVlube is also a rotating banner on top. It is where I work and will then follow through with analysis of the analysis as the numbers can be meaningless without explanation.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Paintdude
11-21-2002, 20:46
lead 5
Copper 27
Iron 13
Chromium 0
Tin 4
Silicon 14
Aluminum 2
Soot .8
Oxidation .1
Nitration .0
ZDDP Depletion .0
Water .3
Fuel .0
Antifreeze .1
Archer Oil Dino 15w40 with just over 5000 miles on truck..Now I will run the 5000 change intervals..
This test was with Rotella-Dino 15w40...2500 miles on truck..2000 miles on oil, I did first change at 500 miles..
My silicon was 25 and I went from the K and N back to the Stock paper filter..
Copper was 53
Lead was 11
Soot was 2.6
Oxidation was 8.8
ZDDP depletion was 16.1
While I am strongly against the gauze type of air filter, the drop in silicon is likely attributed to removal of assembly dirt by oil filtration and just plain process of elimination when you dump the oil. It seems that unless you are in pretty gnarly conditions like pulling air through the fender, the silicon levels aren't through the roof with a K&N. NOW, that doesn't mean that the big stuff isn't there as the spectro analysis doesn't pick up on this stuff. It also could be that since the Dmax has very little blowby, most of the dirt ingested never reaches the oil.
FWIW, My truck had the Amsoil filter from day 1 and had high silicon (and copper) levels that progressively dropped
thechevyhdman
11-24-2002, 23:53
I also ran an oil analysis on oil that had 7500 miles on it. However I DO run a K&N its not doing too bad from your results I had 15 ppm of silicon. Not too bad from stock considering the mileage I had on the oil. Next oil change will be my tell tale of the "quality" of K&N filters As I dont agree with all the "guaze Q-TIP bashing this site seems to incorporate" What I was wondering is didnt the company test the viscosity of your oil to show how its wearing? Also seems like it skipped over some other elements to test. I would post my test but unfortunately cannot find it at this time. Your high silicon count with the K&N usage could also be from outside your oil pan (ie. dirt getting into your sample). Not to be a loud mouth......I been waiting for someone to sponsor me a Amsoil filter to test side by side with identical trucks but no ones offered yet... I figure we could get some "realworld" results. If you want a really thorough analysis drop me an email and I can give you a number.It was 13 bucks to have mine done with shipping. Bill
Gmanjr96@aol.com
Paintdude
11-25-2002, 07:22
I get mine done for free (Archer Petroleum)and I do the samples mid stream..
Thanks, I will post my next results when the time comes..I am just gonna have a rough time going 5000 miles on a oil change..I aint used to that..
Idle_Chatter
11-25-2002, 08:46
Well, just got my second analysis done by AVlube. My iron and aluminum are up slightly, but the good news is that in spite of my dunderheaded failure to clean my Amsoil oily couch cushion for 34,000 miles, my silicon was down from 12 to 9!! :D I guess that gunk was making it a better filter? My results are in my Yahoo briefcase at the links below if anyone is interested. Iron concerns me a bit, but the reduction in lead and copper with tin still at 0 makes me feel good that I'm not eating any bearings. tongue.gif
SoCalDMAX
11-25-2002, 09:05
Although several members (myself included)have cautioned people about K&N filters, I wouldn't characterize it as "q-tip bashing". Q-tips work great as long as one doesn't puncture an eardrum. ;)
Here's what I've gathered from a multitude of sources, including: a well respected BMW tuner, other diesel web sites, another brand of car enthusiast site( sorry can't recall the brand, but it was a sports car site) and every off-road motorcycle site I've visited.
ALL OF THE ABOVE, except the BMW tuner, stated that the K&N flows better than the stock paper filter. In the case of the BMW, he compared the number of pleats and total surface area of the K&N vs stock filter and came up with equations showing that the K&N would load up faster, restrict airflow faster and allow significantly more dirt through (based on his own testing using the same dirt used in SAE tests) than the stock filter.
The other car and diesel enthusiast sites all cited their own testing, similar to the above, with the difference being the K&N flowed significantly better than stock, but at the cost of lower filtration effectiveness.
The off-road MC/ATV sites were almost unanimous in their opinion of K&N filters. If riding in dusty (especially fine dust) conditions, use a double or triple layer oiled FOAM type filter. If riding where dust is not a problem, use a K&N but always with an Outerwears over it. The off-road shops all sell foam and gauze type filters, with the K&N slightly higher in cost. All of them rebuild MC/ATV engines and they have seen and know first hand how much fine dust can get through a gauze type filter.
All of them basically came to the same conclusion: the K&N may flow more air when brand new, but at lower filtration effectiveness. Now if the owner cleans the K&N filter improperly with compressed air or high pressure water, uses too little or too much oil, all bets are off. The gauze has now been compromised and even larger particles can now get through the tunnels left in the gauze or it's not catching dirt due to too little oil or excess oil is messing with the MAF sensor.
I have nothing against gauze filters. If one wants max. airflow and doesn't mind a little more dust getting thru than other types, then the K&N is just fine. I've run one on my Mustang GT since 1990, along with Fram oil filters. Neither has caused an engine failure, but I'm willing to bet that the engine has suffered more wear in 110,000mi than it would have if using better air and oil filters. It's also not operated in dusty environments.
After carefully researching my diesel truck purchase and selecting the Dmax, I realized I'll probably never be able to afford another truck in this lifetime, so I'm buying the best maintenance items I can to try to protect the investment and ensure I can get buried in it. ;) After reading all that I have (from people who SELL K&N filters), I've come to the conclusion that for OUR application, (high flow turbo diesel requiring very clean air) the oiled foam filter is the best way to go. I know this is just my opinion, but I based it upon lots of info I've read from multiple sources.
Regards, Steve
[ 11-25-2002: Message edited by: SoCalDMAX ]</p>
Who has the bigger name in air filters, K&N or Amsoil?
It is very easy to sell the K&N because it sells itself by name alone. Personally, I dislike the Amsoil company in general, BUT they have some fine products. The dual stage foam filter is one of them. I could put K&N filters on the site, and they would sell themselves like hot cakes, but I choose the Amsoil units for filtration benefits. And no, you will likely NEVER see my picture in the centerfold of the Amsoil propaganda book as a major player...
I will second what SoCalDMAX indicated with respect to the off-road environment and KNN air filters. I have been riding motorcycles in the Southern California deserts for over 35 years. For those that have ridden in this environment, they know how extreme it is with regard to dust. In my teens, I used KNN air filters for several years on a couple of bikes that I were riding at the time. I used these air filters because (at the time) the Dirt Bike magazine(s) indicated it was THE filter to use for max airflow. That was and maybe still is today a true statement. The bikes ran fine but what I always noticed was a very fine layer of dirt (mixed in air filter oil residual) in the rubber air intake tube that connected the air box to the carburetor. This was dirt that was evident to the touch of ones fingers. I tried different combination of oiling the filter to correct this situation, but it never seemed to change. Did the bikes run? Yes, they ran great. Did they have significant engine wear due to dirt getting through the air filter, most likely!
Several years later, I replaced those two bikes. In subsequent years, I remember that I used multi-layer foam air filters from a company call Twin Air. (Similar in construction to the Amsoil air filter, multi layer foam with suspended oil). The air intake tube was always clean. There may have been dirt present, but it was so small in size that it was not perceivable to the touch. In more recent years, most off-road dirt bike manufactures supply a good multi-lay foam air filter with the bike. There has really been no reason to replace them until they wear out from cleaning (usually after every ride).
I doubt that most people will subject their vehicles to the environment that is present in the SoCal off-road desert scene. However, if they do, I would suspect the same results would happen if using a KNN air filter. For me, I will stick with the Amsoil type air filter.
Just passing along some personal experiences that I have had with air filters on motorcycles that operate in an extreme dust/dirt environment. I will let you determine whether it is relevant to the situation at hand.
Regards,
Alan
Paintdude
11-25-2002, 19:51
That is why they use foam filters on lawn mowers...This summer was dry and dusty around here..When I had the K and N installed..
I run BNC filters on my motorcycle..23,000 miles and it still pulls 136 hp on the dyno..12 to 1 comp..But with 17 to 1 comp of the duramax ,plus a turbo ,the intake vaccum is gonna be much greater..So more filtration is a plus..IMO..
Copy and paste this..
http://pacific-audio.com/performance/messages/199621.html
[ 11-25-2002: Message edited by: Paintdude ]</p>
Paintdude
11-25-2002, 22:28
I found this on another site.......a reply a guy got from K and N........
They do their own testing. Their testing does not meet the SAE testing standards. On the chart they show our filters has having a shorter life
than paper filters. Our filters are actually warrantied 10 years 1 million miles. The filters can be washed up to 25 times. Depending on your
environment you should only have to wash it once a year or around 30000 miles. Our filters have an efficiency rating of 99.05%. This means that
our filters catch 99.05% of the particles flown through it. This meets or exceed OEM standards. If Amsoil filters flowed and filtered better than
ours then I am sure that the big manufacturers would be having them make the filters for them (Ford, Mopar, Harley, etc.) instead of us. Also we made the filters on the Apache helicopters that flew in Desert Storm. I think that this speaks for itself on the quality of our product. Our oil is not as tacky. As an Amsoil filter gets dirty the tacky oil makes the dirt that much more heavy. As the air is coming through the filter it can actually push this heavy dirt through the filter. Here is how our filters are tested which is the true SAE standard. Our filters are tested by an outside, independent laboratory. They have been
proven to stop at least 99% of particles on a SAE dust test. This test uses particles as low as the 0 - 5 micron range and goes up to 20 microns. For comparison, a paper filter also stops 99% on the same test and the OEM minimum standard is 96%. Foam is generally the worst media with a typical efficiency rating of 75 - 85%. To get higher ratings, the foam must be more dense and therefore way more restrictive. The "tack" characteristic of a K&N allows for increase filtration without loss of flow as well. The testing procedure used is SAE J-726 using ISO Test Dust. This test is the standard of the air filter industry. The test procedure consists of flowing air through the filter at a constant rate (airflow rate is determined by the application) while feeding test dust into the air stream at a rate of 1 gram per cubic meter of air.
As the filter loads with dust the pressure drop across the filter is increased to maintain the prescribed airflow rate. The test is continued until the pressure drop increases 10" H2O above the initial restriction of
the clean element (in this case .78" to 10.78" H2O). At this point the test is terminated. The dirty filter element is then weighed. This weight is compared to the clean element weight to determine the total Dust Capacity. The amount of dust retained by the filter is divided by the total amount of dust fed during the test to determine the Cumulative Efficiency. The K&N filter achieved the following results: Dust Capacity: 305 grams Cumulative Efficiency: 99.05 %. Holding the filter to the light is useless, pin holes are normal. That is what makes a K&N filter. There are actually hundreds of microscopic fibers that cross these holes and when treated with oil, capture and hold the very
fine particles. On the same hand, they allow the filter to flow more air than paper or foam. The filter is 4 ply cotton gauze unlike some competitors
synthetic material filters. The synthetics do not have the very small fibers that natural cotton does. Also, the oil can be pulled off of a foam filter contaminating electronic sensors. It will absorb into cotton and stay in the media. In fact, Honda and Toyota only recommend K&N filters when using
aftermarket high flow filters as K&N is the only brand of filter the oil does NOT come off of. They will not cover a failed sensor if foam filters were used. We got started over 30 years ago making filters for motorcycles and off road racers. The filters did so well that these guys wanted them for their cars
and trucks. We started making filters for these applications and here we are today. If they did not work, we would not still be here and growing every
year. We now make filters for Chrysler/Mopar, Ford Motorsports, Edelbrock, Rotax Engines, and Harley Davidson. We come as original equipment on the 2000 Ford Mustang Cobra-R. We even made filters for the Apache helicopters used in Desert Storm because of maintenance problems with the original paper design.
If they work in these conditions they will work for you. I hope this answers any questions you have and alleviates any concerns about owning a K&N filter.
Thank You.
Paintdude.
As with many things in life, a person has to gather all the information they can, add in some personal experience, and then make a decision and go with it. The paper vs. gauze vs. foam air filter element is probably one of the issues that will be debated on this and other web sites for years to come. The individuals posting on this thread are doing the right thing by using some analytical means (oil analysis) to assist themselves in making a decision.
I followed your reference to (http://pacific-audio.com/performance/messages/199621.html). After reading that message I ended up on another web site dealing with Oil Analysis, filtration, etc. (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
GMC-2002-Dmax
11-26-2002, 13:19
Paintdude,
THANKS ;)
GMC :D
thechevyhdman
01-19-2003, 11:55
Got another oil analysis heres the results
Miles on oil 7029.0
Miles on truck 28,822
Copper 6
Iron 15
Chrome 2
Lead 0
Aluminum 3
Silicon 10
Molybdenum 82
Sodium 1
Calcium 2420
Tin 0
Potassium 0
Magnesium 242
Zinc 1223
Water negative
Fuel negative
Soot 11
Oxidation 46
Sulfur products 13
Oil viscosity 13.1
Compartment wear is normal. No problems indicated at this time.
The zinc could be part of the additive package. What lube are you running?
thechevyhdman
01-19-2003, 13:20
Im running Citgo Citguard 500 15w40. My Zinc levels in my last analysis was 943. I just use plain ol' Dino oil. Bill
Citgard is a quality product. I am very familiar with it, used to work for a multi-branded distributor who sold a lot of it. I also have a good friend at Citgo.
I only have 3500 miles on my DMax, I plan to run 6000 - 7500 intervals depending on how much I tow.
Do you tow much? Looks like you are getting good results with 7000 interval.
thechevyhdman
01-19-2003, 19:17
No towing now. During the spring, summer, and fall, I tow a little landscape trailer that weighs about 2 tons. This is just normal driving with the Juice. I figure Im saving some money by putting a bit more miles on the oil before I change it. And the oil analysis will provide documentation/proof of any problems. And can come in assistance if there are any problems down the road with warranty/owner changed oil.
Plus the Citgo oil is so cheap from our local distributor I really cant go wrong using it.
LanduytG
01-19-2003, 20:07
thechevyhdman
Analysis looks good, but the soot number concerns me. What lab did the analysis and how are they measuring the soot? With the couple of labs I have used 11 would be over twice the allowable limit. The viscicity is at the lower end of a 40 weight. Iron is one of the lowest I have seen. You have a lot of life left in the oil.
Greg
[ 01-19-2003: Message edited by: LanduytG ]</p>
The HD Man is the "idle" KING !!!!!! ;)
Not that I'm far behind.....
Even he will tell you that .......
MAC
[ 01-19-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>
thechevyhdman
01-20-2003, 03:41
Actually Greg, the last time I posted on this you asked me the same question. Soot is measured in terms of percent allowed based upon Caterpillar's engine specifications. I scored in at %11 the maximum allowed is %100. I guess it doesnt really give an exact amount on how much "soot" is in my oil, But based on how stringent CAT is on their SOS Oil Analysis, It must not be a problem.(They are wicked anal on oil conditions etc) I might call them up tommorrow and find out a more in depth answer. I dont know how soot can be measured(PPM?) But I assume that if my levels were a problem they would be on my butt in no time. If they spot a big problem, they will call you up immediately, happened before when we took delivery of a brand new GMC with a Cat 3126E. Came from the factory with wrong oil They guessed it was 10w30. Cat is a real class act with everything they do. Ive seen hospital rooms cleanliness put to shame by their Oil analysis lab.
LanduytG
01-20-2003, 05:30
thechevyhdman
I don't remember asking before but then I guess I did. I would guess then 11 is still way under 1%. I don't have any problem with Cat's analysis I am sure they are on top of things better than most.
Greg
tonkater
01-20-2003, 19:54
Hey Chevy HD !! Hows it going ? Wheres a good place to get K&N air filter in Danbury/New Milford ?
thechevyhdman
01-21-2003, 01:26
Terry, Long time no see. I usually just go to Cruisers on Federal road. After shipping etc, their price is the same as an online store. I bought 7 K&N's their So they took a couple bucks off the top I think it was like 42 or 45 bucks for the filter. I actually have to pick my brother up 2 this week. Not only did he get an 03' Dmax, Alli, Dually, hes joining the site too. But please everyone dont worry, hes the oldest of the seven of us and I am the youngest....Hes not nearly as much of a loudmouth as I am tongue.gif
tonkater
01-21-2003, 22:57
Past your "roll off truck" in New Milford today on way to work. Bidding a job in Taunton Hill , any local electricians/plumbers you can recommend ? I'm ready to fire the one I got now, he's turned what I scheduled as an 8 week project in Brookfield into 5 or 6 month one. UGH !!
stillracing
02-24-2003, 07:19
I sent my 15,000 mi. oil analysis in and found water and copper at abnormal levels. What should I do next to track down the problem.
Thanks
Copper is usually bearings, valve guides, or bushings although I am not sure what composition these items are in the DMax engine. Sometimes copper is elevated during break in but should fall off after the first or second oil change. It's also found in some additives.
How many oil changes have you done and at what mileages? Did you do analysis then? Any elevated copper?
What was the water level? This is bad no matter. What did the lab recommend? Anything besides change fluid?
Obviously you got that oil out and replaced with clean asap?
You may try calling the dealer and asking if they will review the analysis with you. If the lab is credible it would seem like they would rather look now rather than when the truck comes in on a roll back.
Good luck.
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>
Copper is typically somewhat high. What were the actual numbers?
Suggest having AV lube do your analysis so you can have George do the review...
Not to sure if I would discuss extended drain intervals with my dealer....Bingo, they will point the finger.......I would do another at Recommended drain interval then discuss with dealer IF still high.....Water or antifreeze?? Water could be result of container you used,or condinsation....Was container clean and dry?? Also did you do a drain off of at least a quart or better before sample taken in an alternate container??
Just some ideas,good luck.....
Question for you oil specialist guys....When should sample be drawn, HOT? Or Cold prior to starting? Does it matter??
Never seen this brought up....
MAC
Good point about the drain interval Mac.
Drawn or mid-stream, samples should be at op temp. Mid- stream samples can get contaminated easier though, for obvious reasons.
Some analyticals I've seen in the past don't distinguish between water and glycol, or better stated, don't identify glycol specifically but the water shows and because it's the carrier OF the glycol the cooling system becomes suspect.
This may have changed in recent years as analytical methods have improved and become more economical. I am a little out of the mainstream on this, I have been working on the environmental side of the lube industry for the past 7 years but our lab methods have improved dramatically in this time frame and we are looking for similar elements in some cases.
LanduytG
02-24-2003, 15:19
Samples should always be taken hot. Plus let some oil drain out before catching it. Depending on what lab you use it will give water and glycol content. I have switched over to AV lube for oil analysis, I like the format and George is a great help.
Greg
BigLakeDMAX
02-27-2003, 20:57
I just received the report back from my first engine oil analysis, done by Shell Care. Everything looks good, with the exception of silicon at 49ppm. Test was at 9700 miles, just prior to 3rd oil change - about 4500 miles on this oil. Previous changes were at 5200 miles and 1350 miles.
Report states that silicon levels were due to non-abrasive gasket/sealant material. Truck had water pump replaced, and then the engine front cover replaced after it was cracked - presumably during water pump R&R - both while this oil was on board. Good news is no glycol present.
Question is, can analysis differentiate between bad silicon/dirt and harmless non-abrasive gasket/sealant silicon? Or, are they just assuming that it's so?
Thanks!
Don
LanduytG
02-27-2003, 21:21
Yes it can, if wear metal content is high it is dirt.
Greg
The silicon levels were high due to non-abrasive gasket/sealant material? All my life (55 yrs) I've understtod silicon to be sand, or directly related to or derived from sand. I've never seen any gasket/sealant using sand in the mix. Now I have seen silicone used for gaskets, but that's an entirely different animal. Silicon and silicone are NOT the same, not even close. I can understand how silicon levels would increase due to contamination during a gasket change. Perhaps that is what they meant.
96GMC6.5TDSubOwner
03-12-2003, 19:28
Big Lake:
Check to be sure your air filter is seated properly. Check all air cleaner box clamps/hoses. Had this high silicon situation on my Sub once, turned out the hose to the turbo had popped off the airbox. Oil analysis can be a lifesaver!
george morrison
03-15-2003, 08:58
To reiterate what Greg already mentioned, the lab cannot differentiate gasket material from dirt. However, it is easily discerned by reading the complete wear metals analysis. Especially with multiple oil analysis resutls, by monitoring the trending of the wear metals in relation to the silicon, it is then easy to discern true dirt from gasket material OR a contaminated oil sample. Elevated dirt to the 49 PPM level WILL cause elevated wear metals, especially soft bearing materials such as copper, tin, lead. If these numbers are relatively low, unflagged, then it is most likely either gasket material OR a contaminated sample. It is MOST important that the oil sample is captured properly. Warm engine oil, midstream sample. The sterile sample bottle top must be kept on/covered until just before you put the bottle into midstream. Even a small spec of dirt falling into the botttle can skew results.
Just handing the sample bottle to Joe Greasegun, without instructions, will almost always guarantee a bad sample.. One must have a consistent, properly taken sample for the results to be meaningful.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
BigLakeDMAX
03-15-2003, 22:17
Thanks for the replies - answers make sense. I have a fumoto valve which makes it easy to obtain samples, kept cover on until taking sample, and took mid-stream. I'm thinking replacing the H2O pump and front cover, all without changing the oil afterward, may have had something to do with it. Lots of gaskets and sealer used I imagine. I'll do another analysis in about 3K.
Toddster
03-27-2003, 17:56
The dealer first changed my oil @ 200mi after picking it up from another dealer. It got Delvac 1 @ 1,000 miles, again @ 5,000mi then against my religon I waited till I hit 10,000mi for my next change....So, here is my first analisis with 5,000mi on the oil, AC Delco filter, and AFE installed for about 2,000 of those miles....Keep in mind my truck IS EGR equiped....Copper 17, Iron 21, Chrome 2, Lead 8, Aluminum 9, Silicon 10, Molybdenum 3, Sodium 0, Calcium 1278, Tin 1, Potassium 0, Magnesium 267, Zinc 661, Water neg, Fuel neg, Antifreeze neg, Soot 47, Oxidation 11, Sulfer products 0, Viscosity 14.3....This is a strict Caterpiller analisis performed by H.O. Penn in Newington CT.
Todd- this oil is in good shape. The magnesium seems "unusual" but it may be part of the add pack. If you are going to stay with the synthetic and you get this kind of result again I would go to 7000 interval after and try it again.
I am going to go 6k with Delvac 1300 dino.
Toddster, here are the rusults of my last check at 20,000 miles 12/12 2002. Oil Delvac 1300 15-40 with 76hrs on it. Amsoil air filter. AC Delco 2232.
Iron 16
Chromium 1
Lead 5
Copper 7
Tin 0
Aluminum 3
Nickel 0
Silver 0
Silicon 11
Boron 78
Sodium 0
Magnesium 471
Calcium 2595
Barium 0
Phosphorus 1347
Zinc 1594
Molybdenum 66
Titanium 0
Vanadium 0
Potassium 0
Fuel <1
Viscosity 14.21
Water 0%
Soot 0 (%vol)
Glycol neg
"Results of tests performed indicate no corrective action required."
In both cases the Amsoil filter looks to be doing a great job.
thechevyhdman
03-28-2003, 19:15
Ive come to notice in my oil analysis reports (done by same place as Toddster) that their is no difference in silicon counts between Amsoil and K&N. Not trying to beat a dead horse, but K&N filters do just as good a job as Amsoil based upon my oil analysis. I can post my last 3 if anyone is interested. I go 7,000 miles between oil changes too.
Toddster is running the AFE Magnum Force......
His silicon level is lower......
MAC :eek:
Diesel Dragon
03-28-2003, 22:13
Hi Toddster
I found my report from my last oil change in October. It was also done at HO Penn the results were
Copper 3
Iron 17
Chrome 3
Lead 0
Aluminum 0
Silicon 0
Molybdenum 0
Sodium 5
Calcium 2816
Tin 0
Potassium 0
Magnesium 21
Zinc 942
Water Negative
Fuel Negative
Antifreeze Negative
Soot 34
Oxidation 19
Sulfur Prd 6
Viscosity 13.9
Oil had 10,000 miles on it
Truck had 210,000 miles on it
Oil was Shell Rotella 15W40 Dino
Truck is my Freightliner Tri-Axle Dump Truck
Engine is CAT 3406E 14.7 Liter
550 Horsepower 1,850 Foot Pounds of Stump pulling Torque :D
I wish they would put a CAT motor in a Chevy PU but my new Duramax seems to be working good for now.
Personally I like the Dino oil it seems to be working good for me so far and I'll try it in my Duramax when its time for its first oil change.
IMO oil changes are cheap compared to rebuilding an engine and theres no need to try to stretch out an oil change to the point where you see some adverse effects in the oil reports. 5000 mlies is more than enough miles to change the oil for a PU.
Just my 2 cents
Later Diesel Dragon :cool:
Diesel Dragon- You obviously have excellent maintenance standards. I can't ever remember seeing an oil analysis with zero silicon!
DIESEL/VETTE
03-29-2003, 10:53
THECHEVYHDMAN
i was told by k&n that they do not make a oil filter for the duramax. what # k&n are you using for the oil filter?
thank you
Friend of mine with a Dmax & the Amsoil filter system just got an analysis back.
196 on Copper :eek: :eek: Everything else was low.
Only 8,000 miles on the truck & completely stock with no Juice. Mainly short hop city driving with few hwy miles & driven easy. No towing. Amsoil is suggesting bearing wear.
Any ideas?
Billy
What oil? How many changes? How many analysis? Any copper before?
TraceF,
Not sure but I beleive 3 changes. The test was done on the Amsoil Synth 5w30. First two changes was with regular 5w30. Don't know which brand.
This was their 1st analysis.
Billy
thechevyhdman
03-29-2003, 14:28
Diesel Vette....Im running the stock GM oil filter and K&N AIR FILTER..... Ill take the risk using a non stock air filter, but would never take the risk (after all the problems in the beginning with aftermarket oil filters) of using a non stock oil filter. Out of the 10 past oil analysis I have done on abunch of different vehicles I have never seen a 0 for silicon myself. Bill
Diesel Dragon
03-29-2003, 21:55
You guys got me wondering if I copied the report down wrong, but I didn't the Si Silicon was 0 and the 3 reports before that one they were 4,0, and 1. All with 10,000 miles between changes. The truck has dual Nelson Air filters, they must work good I guess. I just sent another sample out Friday I should get the report back in a few days I'll let you know what it is. Also the Air filters now have 30,000 miles on them I'll be changing them this week. Talk to you later
Diesel Dragon :cool:
Billy14-
If your friend lives in TX I would change to 15w40. If heu used 5w30 in the past and it wasn't diesel rated he used a product not intended for his engine and could have done bearing damage that is continuing to be displayed.
Change the oil, do an analysis of it- and again on the new oil at 3 or 4k miles to see if he has a bearing going away.
It seems everyone has elevated Cu levels in their Duramax oil samples. Does this seem to be the case and should we be worried about it? Anyone have bearing or wrist pin problems?
No problems here, but I only have 6.3kmi. When my truck was brand new I did three (Delo 15w40) oil changes at 1000 mile intervals and sent a sample for Analysis from the third change. My CU was 24ppm at 3k miles. Is this high for a Dmax? I switched to synthetic at the 3kmi change and installed a bypass at the 5kmi change. I plan to do another analysis at 8k. Hopefully the CU will be trending down.
Cu levels on my 6.5 ran between 2 and 0ppm (lower with a Baldwin B50 bypass installed). Cu levels on my 2001 Malibu were 94ppm at 11kmi and 55ppm at 16kmi. I used Oil Analyzers and and they didn’t flag any of the CU levels as a problem. Comments?
george morrison
04-05-2003, 10:39
Yes, elevated copper level for Duramax engines is the norm. Engines have 'signature' wear metals, depending on bearing and engine design. Many times Japanese designed engines produce relatively higher copper levels and carry those consistent readings through a very, very long life. I just reviewed a Komatsu oil analysis Friday for an engine with over 31,000 hours on it, which is incredibly long life for a large mining machine.
This is why it is important to look at oil analysis results over time, monitoring trends vs. looking at just one oil analysis result in isolation.
George
Mine is at 5ppm as of my latest sampling. Same with silicon. Highest metal was iron at 16ppm. As George will attest, bypass filtration has taken my oil samples to cleanliness levels similar to my fuel!
ISO spec 15/14/10.
I too had high copper before...
stillracing
04-08-2003, 22:10
I'm running dual by-pass and I have had three oil samples tested. at 9000 mi copper was 96 at 18000 mi copper was 344 at 19000 mi 323 and add a little water on top of that. I decided to change my oil and retest soon.
I noticed between the 18 and 19xxx tests oxidation went down 2%. I think that is impossible so I called oil Analyzers. They told me the tests are not accurate because the testing devices vary measurements somewhat when they calibrate them.
JK- This test was 4000 mi. towing my fifth wheel to Fla. and back. Iron was 12, Cu was 25 and all the rest of the wear metals were single digits or zero. Si was 10 using Amzoil filter. Do you think a bypass filter will help?
RichBailey
04-09-2003, 10:15
I have been running oil analysis at every oil change (except the first one at 1000 mi). Here are the results:
Cu/ Pb/ Sn
5150 mi/ 154/ 22/ 19
11100 mi/ 76/ 13/ 11
15751 mi/ 25/ 7/ 5
20300 mi/ 15/ 4/ 4
Blackstone Lab comments:
"We are impressed with this engine. Upper end wear (al, cr, fe) have been reading steady since the engine was new. Lower end wear (cu, pb, sn) are improving. Steady wear trends are a good indication that engine is mechanically sound.
[ 04-09-2003: Message edited by: RichBailey ]</p>
I've never had my oil tested so I'd appreciate a short course in
what it entails.
1. How big a sample?
2. What is used for a sample container?
3. What is the best way to collect a sample?
4. How often should it be done?
5. Cost per analysis?
6. Shipping cost?
7. Will a dealer pay any attention to abnormal values?
8. What the heck is ferrography?
9. Recommended Labs?
10. Any other good information about getting our oil tested?
Thanks,
56Nomad
My Take ...
1. How big a sample?
*Three four oz
2. What is used for a sample container?
* The bottle comes in the kit....
3. What is the best way to collect a sample?
*Hot with a Fumuto valve drain off at least a quart first....
4. How often should it be done?
*Depends on you, what you chose for drain intervals ....
5. Cost per analysis?
*Varys around twenty bucks ...
6. Shipping cost?
*Should be included ....
7. Will a dealer pay any attention to abnormal values?
* Only if you showed them ... I would think this could show go maintenance records if your vin is clearly shown on report ...
8. What the heck is ferrography?
*=>http://www.predictusa.com/ferrography.htm
9. Recommended Labs?
*I liked the way this report was ...=>http://www.blackstone-labs.com/body_index.html
10. Any other good information about getting our oil tested?
*I like the idea that it is an early warning sign for a potential problem ...
Mac
*
[ 05-22-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>
1BADDMAX
05-22-2003, 17:56
I had my oil analyzed for the first time at my last oil change. The Blackstone kit comes with a bottle to catch your oil (about 4 oz.). It comes with another bottle to put the oil bottle in. The outer bottle has a mailing label. It cost $1.52 to send it back to Blackstone. The cost of analysis is $20. Check out my report.
http://www.geocities.com/one_badz71/blackstone49964.jpg
Amianthus
05-23-2003, 09:17
You've gotten good answers from mackin on all of them. I'll just add my $.02 to a couple of them.
4. Either when you change your oil or some other interval around that time. By that I mean, if you change your oil at 5,000 miles, sample then. If you are going for extended drain intervals, sample at the same time you would change your filter.
7. Only if the hunyuck knows what he's (she's) looking at. You may find one, but the smart ones are a rare breed indeed. If you find one be sure you treat them right.
9. I use Oil Analyzers. Only because I use Amsoil and they have a long history with that oil. Not to mention it costs me $14.95 a test.
10. Getting your oil tested is a great way to really take a look inside your engine to see if there are any potential problems in the making. But it is not as good as ferrography. You should consider ferrography if you get a couple of oil samples that are in question. Then you will have a definate answer to what is causing the error. For routine purposes, regular oil analysis (viscosity, ph, titration, spectrographic analysis, etc.) is good enough. If you want to see the kind of information that you get with an analysis, you can check mine out here http://amianthus.home.sprynet.com/Oilanalysis.xls
George Morrison is a great resource for this kind of information in the fact that he's probably forgotten more about lubricants than you or I will ever know. Be honored that he spends as much time on this site as he does (he does make his rounds though). Top shelf individual for sure.
[ 05-23-2003: Message edited by: Amianthus ]</p>
mackey_62
10-16-2003, 08:11
Just recieved latest oil analysis results.
Curious to see what others have found, especially Mobil users.
Any oil experts feel free to comment.
If anyone wants to compare their brand........
Using Rotella 5-40 syn. sample at 24,603
5,566 miles on oil, AC filter.
Comments:
"TBN = 10.8 indicating plenty of active additive remaining in oil"
"Insolubles low at 0.1% showing good filtration and complete combustion"
All elements (20) in normal range except for these 2.
Copper was 18 ppm vs. 9 ppm avg
Lead 9 ppm vs. 4 ppm avg
18 Others (in ppm):
Alum. 1
Chrom. 0
Iron 12
Tin 0
Molyb. 0
Nickel 0
Mang. 0
Silv. 0
Titan. 0
Potas. 6
Boron 2
Silic. 7 (Amsoil filter)
Sodium 2
Calcium 3741
Phosph. 838
Magnes. 6
Zinc 969
Barium 1
Properties:
SUS Viscosity = 72.3
Flashpoint = 440
Fuel % = <0.5
Antifreeze % = 0.0
Water % = 0.0
Insolubles = 0.1
I am certainly not an oil expert, but I will add a few comments. I have had three oil analysis's done on my truck (only 14K mile total).
Each time the copper has been lower. Seems to be a trend with these engines. If I recall correctly, I remember reading on this forum where George Morrison indicated that higher copper levels were a characteristic of Isuzu motors. Maybe do a search to find that topic.
The other item I have had warnings about is the silicon. This parameter has been steadily decreasing also. The last oil change it was down to 10. It had previously been 35 and 20.
I have found the following website to be a good resource for oil and oil analysis related questions/answers:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi
Alan
If anyone wants to compare their brand........
Using Rotella 5-40 syn. sample at 24,603
5,566 miles on oil, AC filter.
Comments:
"TBN = 10.8 indicating plenty of active additive remaining in oil"
"Insolubles low at 0.1% showing good filtration and complete combustion"
All elements (20) in normal range except for these 2.
Copper was 18 ppm vs. 9 ppm avg
Lead 9 ppm vs. 4 ppm avgSame oil, 5,324 miles on the oil, 36,000 miles on the truck. Only significant differences:
Copper 7
Lead 3
mackey_62
10-17-2003, 10:46
Sneaks
Hopefully I'll be there next time.
Plan to run 5k-6k again, resample, get good results.
Then maybe push changes out a little further and see how additives are holding up.
Truck had 84,583 km (52,557 mi) when sample was taken during oil change.
The oil was Wal-Mart Tech 2000 (5$/gal) 15w40 with 13,360 km (8,301 mi) on it mostly highway loaded.
The analysis is divided in 3 sections.
----------------
Contamination:
==============
Silicon: 6.6
Potassium: 8.6
Sodium: 0.0
Fuel: less than 2.0%
Glycol: 0.0%
Water: less than 0.1%
Soot: 0.1
Sulfuration: 56
Nitration: 55
Comments: There is no indication of any contamination in the component.
Wear:
=====
Iron: 20
Nickel: 0.0
Chromium: 0.7
Titanium: 0.1
Copper: 4.2
Aluminium: 4.2
Tin: 1.3
Lead: 3.5
Silver: 0.2
Comments: All component wear rates are normal.
Oil Condition:
==============
Boron: 2.5
Barium: 0.2
Calcium: 2635
Magnesium: 10
Molybdebum: 0.2
Sodium: 0.0
Phosphorus: 963
Sulfur: 3569
Zinc: 1269
Visc@100C(212F): 13.4
Oxidation: 55
Comments: The condition of the oil is acceptable for the time in service.
--------------
Anything unusual? This was my longest interval, I normaly do the oil change @ 10,000 km (6213 mi). GM recomends between 8,500km and 12,000km depending on use.
Test come back very good.Mobil Delvac 1 oil at 6500 miles.TBN at 9.78 which someone will have to explain to me.Would like to go further on oil change as most of my miles are extended highway miles and the oil is rather spendy.
Saywhat,
TBN is short for “Total Base Number” and is an overall measure of how the additive pack is holding up - the higher the TBN the better. IIRC, a TBN of 12 is what most diesel oils start out with new. One purpose of the additive pack is to neutralize acid in the oil from the combustion process. As the additive pack is depleted the TBN goes down (a “base” neutralizes “acid”). The other parameters to watch are silicon and wear metals – lower is better. It’s also not uncommon for Si and Cu to be high during break-in.
There is a good primer on UOA (used oil analysis) at Bobistheoilguy.com
What is Oil Analysis (http://theoildrop.server101.com/whatisoilanalysis.htm)
smile.gif
Little off the path of the current forum questions but here goes. All my oil analysis show the viscosity @ 100 degreesC to be slightly low, yielding an abnormal status. Readings betweeen 11.55 to 11.94 for a 15w40 dino oil, the cut point being 12.50. All other specs are always in line w/ parameters. Question, is this a problem?? Would someone, perhaps Mr. George Morrison care to educate me and perhaps others of the ins and outs of minimum oil viscosity. thanks, bob......
More Power
08-30-2004, 13:57
We produced an article on engine oil analysis a few years ago. In this piece, myself, George Morrison and Dr. Lee Swanger contributed input. The following are excerpts from that article.
-----------------
[b]A leaking injector or a bad seal in the injection pump could result in raw fuel finding its way into the oil. An engine oil analysis will detect this problem. Any fuel dilution above 1 (as reported on the oil analysis sheet) with a corresponding decrease in oil viscosity below that of 15W (for a 15W-40 oil) is cause for concern.
Another reason for decreasing oil viscosity is "shear-down", according to George Morrison, which indicates the oil is ready for a change. You might consider sending in a sample of NEW OIL for a baseline analysis. Then if viscosity at 100
Thanks More Power, fuel dilution is very low, as well as all other readings are well within normal ranges. The only consistent abnormal reading is viscosity which runs slightly low each test. Maybe your suggestion to sample an unused potion of oil to establish a base line would help. However, I believe the brand and weight of oil is taken into account when testing a used sample, brand and weight is part of the requested info sent w/ each sample. My thought is that the oil is OK to go for longer service despite a slightly low viscosity. bob........
Bob,
For more info and comparisons you could try BobIsTheOilGuy... They have three forums dedicated to Oil Analysis.
Oil Analysis Reports (http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?category=4)
smile.gif
Thanks jbplock. Viewed the oil site interesting. thanks again bob.....
jmcgmc03
11-21-2004, 19:11
At 25000 miles I had my oil (Amsoil 15W 30 Heavy Duty Diesel and Marine)analized to check how things were working inside the motor. I was suprised to see elevated levels of Silicon at 23 ppm, copper at 33ppm and lead at 23 ppm. In the notes on the report it said the silicon was from contamination causing abrasive wear. It said the copper and lead were from bearing / bushing wear. To my relief there was no water or fuel (injectors) in the oil and everything else was fine. I guess my question is should I be alarmed by these numbers or is this just normal wear and tear. This was my first engine oil analysis so I have no frame of reference to let me know if these numbers are a potential problem or normal. I am coming up on 35000 miles (next oil change) and I am going to have another oil analysis done before my 3 year / 36000 mile warranty is up. Anyone have similar results? I would appreciate any advice from the gear heads who frequent the Diesel Page.subject. :rolleyes:
jmcgmc03,
How many many miles were on the oil sample that was taken at 25K?
i ran the amsoil in a 350 vortex before my diesel, folled the directions to a tee, and sent oil samples every oilchange(40000 km) but they always came back high silicon, after 3 oil changes i went back to stock oil changes and my high silicon problem was gone, i was on gravel lots and did run their air filter as well, but by that time i was using a liter every two weeks, motor was shot :mad:
jmcgmc03
11-22-2004, 16:15
I had about 10000 miles on the oil when I sent it in to have it looked at. I am also using the Amsoil oiled air breather. Could this be where I am getting the silicon infilyration from?? :rolleyes:
Don't know why, but I had higher silicon readings using amsoil as well. I changed to rotella syn. 5w40 and the readings dropped to lower than anything I had using amsoil.
I know there are variables in miles on oil etc., but below are the readings I have had on Si
factory oil--first change 1500 miles 66ppm
amsoil 15w40 27,14,18,13 ppm
amsoil 5w30 15, 27,34 ppm
rotella syn 5w40 2,3,10 ppm.
same lab, same air filter. most readings taken around 7500-10000 miles. The 66 was the first sample on the truck
Copper and lead are also lower with the rotella. Last two readings were 12 and 13 on lead and 21 and 21 on the copper. I did have two readings with the amsoil at 10 and 7ppm on lead and 13,11 on cu. But all the other readings were much higher on cu and 30-40's on lead.
I'm not knocking amsoil, as I have been a dealer and used it for over 25 years. But the rotella seems to better in my truck and is cheaper.
jmcgmc03
11-25-2004, 15:12
KenZ:
Thanks for the info on the Rotella synthetic. As I previously stated I am going to have the oil tested again in about a month and if the readings for the metals and silicon go up, I am going to switch to a different synthetic. I also was wondering if I could have got the high silicon reading by contaminating the sample while I getting it, that skid plate is a poor design and makes it difficult to get a clean sample. I noticed at the end of your email you had a Fumoto valve for a drain. Does it work good and when can I buy one? Thanks again for the heads up on the oil.
JMC ;)
Fumoto works great, especially for getting a sample. I believe several diesel page advertisers sell them.
SDakDmax
07-30-2005, 10:20
DO any of these numbers look out of line? I've used delvac 15-40, switched to Delvac 1 at my last oil change. 2001 D/A now has 54000 miles, 5500 miles on oil when I sent it in.I was wondering how the synthetic was holding up. I've read from George M. about silicon etc. wow,, there is a lot to know about this but I find it very interesting. Thanks for any replies.. results..
iron 15
chromium 1
lead 3
copper 4
tin 0
aluminum 3
nickel 0
silver 0
silicon 11
boron 60
sodium 0
magnesium 448
calcium 2079
barium 0
phosphorus 1260
zinc 1560
molybdenum 7
titanium 0
vanadium 0
potasium 0
fuel <1
vis@ 100c 13.69
water 0
glycol NEG
F-SOOT <.1
More Power
08-04-2005, 13:43
Your oil analysis looks very good. You can read more about engine oil analysis (http://www.thedieselpage.com/members/features/oilanal.htm) in a member area article we produced a few years ago.
Generally, single digit silicon levels are most desirable, but realistically, low teens are OK for a 5K oil drain interval. The effectiveness of the air filter in trapping dirt is the primary determining factor in the silicon level.
Jim
SDakDmax
08-04-2005, 14:54
Thanks for the reply, very good information,, I've never used synthetics in my D/A and I don't want to run it too far but I don't want to throw away good oil either.. I would keep using regular Delvac, but I like the way the synthetic works in the cold winters here.. Thanks again...
If you treat it with respect and don't run big power, 10k service intervals are no problem. Just watch the level. If you run it hard it will soot up, but from the looks of it yours is doing well.
LanduytG
08-05-2005, 04:38
Looks real good and you should have good luck with it.
I just got my analysis back and had 10300 on the oil. The biggest thing I was looking for was silicon levels because this was the first sample running a foam air filter for the whole sample period. With stock paper I was seeing 12-22ppm silicon and the time it was 12 was when the foam filter was installed part way through the sample period. Now silicon levels are 7ppm which tells me foam is way better than paper any day of the week. Driving conditions have been the same for the last 40K miles. Foam for me and I know JK feels the same way.
Greg
Idle_Chatter
08-05-2005, 05:28
Yep, in spite of all the "experimental" evidence that OEM paper is better than oiled foam, I've been an oiled foam man since nearly day one and I've always had excellent silicon numbers. My REAL WORLD results have been great with oiled foam and it's the way to go for me, too. :D
David Proske
12-01-2005, 03:23
This blackstone report is from a 2003 GMC duramax with 45,000 miles on the truck. This OCI run was 5,000 miles. I wanted to see how well the AFE Pro Guard air filter was doing. I had previously been using the "blue" AFE filter and felt uncomfortable with it as I drive in dusty new construction areas. I also did a LOT of ideling in this run...to the tune of 18 hours one day.
aluminum 2
chromium 0
iron 7
copper 3
lead 5
tin 1
moly 25
nickel 0
manganese 0
silver 0
titanium 0
potassium 0
boron 1
silicon 5
sodium 2
calcium 3100
magnesium 9
phosphorus 1218
zinc 1381
barium 0
sus viscosity @210 F 81.0
flashpoint 420
Looks like the air filter did its job. Blackstone sugggested going to 6,500 miles oci.
My last oil sample with the blue AFE 4 ply filter showed a silicon reading of 13ppm with a 5,000 mile run.
More Power
12-01-2005, 07:36
Excellent oil analysis!
Yes, the 7-ply element is doing its job well. Low teens for silicon with the 4-ply would be somewhat comparable to a stock paper air filter.
Jim
Looks Good Dave!! http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif
I wish my Dmax was seeing copper levels like yours.. last UOA at 47k (7.5k on the oil) was 10ppm.. Some have suggested the Oil Cooler is the source of the copper. Other levels including SI are similar to yours using the AC paper filter and D1 or M1 T&SUV ...
03 Duramax Silverado UOA History (http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO/DMAX_UOA.PDF)
smile.gif
David Proske
12-02-2005, 04:35
My first UOA was at 6K miles, I had a copper reading of 33 back then. It has since gone down.
mattb5150
01-29-2006, 12:15
Hey Guys,
I have a 2002 Dmax with 98,5XX miles on it. I recently switched from Delo 15W40 to Mobil1 TSUV at 85000. I did this after a VW TDI guru who changed my timing belt(on the VW) suggested that I be running syn. in both the Dmax and the TDI. I sampled the last batch of Delo and the analysis came back fine. I recently sampled the Mobil 1 to check for soot% after 12k miles on the oil. Got the analysis the other day and the copper is at 289 ppm, the Delo @ 85k had 6ppm. I am using Oil Analyzers for my testing and they suggest it may be high from lube oil cooler, but say oil is suitable for continued use.
I also may not have sampled correctly this time. With the Delo I was dumping it and randomly took the sample from the stream coming out of my Fumoto valve. This time I was keeping the Mobil 1 so I merely opened the Fumoto and let it pour into the sample bottle. I know that I probably should have dumped a few quarts into a clean bottle and then poured some into the sample bottle and then poured the rest back in the motor. Could this be the reason the copper is so high? The motor has less than 1,500 miles on it until the warranty is up so I want to make sure it's okay, should I resample the correct way?
FWIW, My numbers from Blackstone at 10,535 miles on totally stock 05 LLY, Shell Rotella T 15W-40 changed at 2,300, 5,250, and 10,535...
ALUMINUM 2
CHROMIUM 1
IRON 19
COPPER 18
LEAD 3
TIN 4
MOLYBDENUM 2
NICKEL 0
MANGANESE 0
SILVER 1
TITANIUM 0
POTASSIUM 1
BORON 0
SILICON 14
SODIUM 0
CALCIUM 3015
MAGNESIUM 16
PHOSPHORUS 916
ZINC 966
BARIUM 1
Dave
Inspector
01-29-2006, 18:26
Chevysrus:
I think that you will find doing a searh that there isn't an air filter out there that is better than the stock AC filter for our Dmaxes.
Check it out. I hope that I'm not opening that can of worms again.
Denny
canadave
01-29-2006, 20:11
Don't worry about copper in the first few oil samples. It is a common reaction with additives in the oil and the oil cooler. We run 65 trucks and sample every service, copper levels go way down after first 50,000 miles. We use Cat oil analysis and that is thier diagnosis.
mattb5150
01-30-2006, 00:13
What about my truck with 98,000 miles!
Matt
Jim Brzozowski
01-30-2006, 10:15
My latest at 70,000 miles Rotella 5w-40
FE-4
CR-0
PB-8
CU-5
SN-0
AL-3
NI-0
MN-0
SI-2
B-0
NA-4
MG-0
CA-0
BA-0
P-0
ZN-0
MO-0
Anyone see anything out of line?
Visc100 was 14.4
Soot was 0.2
No water, fuel,glycol, etc.
LanduytG
01-30-2006, 11:30
It took 50K miles for my 04.5 to settle down on the copper level. All samples were taken at 10K miles. It got as high as 999 ppm at 13k miles. I has steadly dropped and the last oil analysis at 50K miles was 45ppm. So now we will see how long we can keep it in. When it hit 999 ppm we had avlube do a ferrography (sp) just to double check to make sure we really didn't have any copper in chunks floating around.
Greg
Jim Brzozowski
02-01-2006, 10:18
999 ppm CU?? Wow, makes you wonder if someone didn't take his own can of copper never-sieze to work that day and put it on all the fasteners while assembling the engine.
TNeustadt
07-19-2006, 14:59
Anyone have info on oil analysis locations, phone #'s..?
Preferably near Knoxville,TN
TNeustadt
07-20-2006, 11:51
In Knoxville...(865)524-3563 Talk to Arthur Woods
Took sample from truck and with a simple 3 minute test....Hey! Fuel in oil positive! They talked to service dept and truck is back at dealer again. Good thing, because viscocity was down to 5W. Stay tuned....
DmaxMaverick
07-20-2006, 12:24
Your dealer has the ability to do the same thing. Problem is, having the ability doesn't mean they'll do it. They should still have to do the sample test to get support from GM. The'll be looking over it with a magnifying glass now, since they've already replaced the injectors once.
jsmiracle
10-17-2006, 18:32
I recently received a UOA Report that indicates that a spike in Copper (Cu) levels and a significant rise in lead (Pb) levels. I have searched TDP forums and it seems to show that the rise in levels could be due to bearing or gasket material as well as lube oil cooler materials.
I also called Oil Analyzers, Inc. and they seemed to not be alarmed. Should I be? The analyst on the phone said that a couple of filter changes ought to bring the levels back to normal. Anyone have any prior experience with this? Thanks.
Copper 13 -> 248
Lead 7 -> 20
Thanks again,
Jim M.
Have you made any changes recently? What oil are you using? Silicon level?
SoTxPollock
10-18-2006, 10:21
Am I understanding you correctly? Your cu went from 13 to 248 and lead from 7 to 20 and Your analysis guy isn't concerned? I have difficulty in believing its bearing material if your using Amzoil. Might be from cooler, but why?
I just checked my last numbers and cu was 5 and lead was 8. If you're starting to deteriorate the bearings you should start seeing a drop in oil pressure. Just changing filters a couple of times won't be the answer, unless some particle broke off inside the engine and did just a little damage and is now down at the bottom of the pan. Man I just don't know. I'm sure your going to watch everything closely now. Keep us informed.
jsmiracle
10-18-2006, 10:31
JK,
I have recently installed a new, open, turbo-back, 4" . 409 SS exhaust.
I have also towed the TT several hundred miles.
Also, this sample was taken at the end of a semiannual oil change (approx. 6.4k miles). A sample was also previously taken at the 3-month mark(mid-term) and the levels were as follows:
3-month sample taken 7/8/06
Copper 13
Lead 7
Silicon 10
6-month sample taken 9/30/06
Copper 248
Lead 20
Silicon 12
The oil is Amsoil's Syn. 15W-40.
I realize this is only a partial picture.
The Analysis Recommendations on the associated UOA report was "COPPER LEVEL IS HIGH - POSSIBLY FROM LUBE OIL COOLER. NO CORRECTIVE ACTION REQUIRED. OIL IS SUITABLE FOR CONTINUED USE. RESAMPLE AT NEXT REGULAR INTERVAL."
I changed the oil to Rotella T 5W-40 for winter.
Should I be concerned? or wait until the next regular sample analysis report? :confused:
Thanks,
Jim M.
How many oil changes so far?
jsmiracle
10-18-2006, 18:49
How many oil changes so far?
The following occurred at the following miles:
360 (change oil/filter)
2,348 (change oil/filter)
4,449 (change oil/filter)
7,003 (change oil/filter)
9,233 (analysis only)
12,274 (change oil/filter)
16,294 (analysis only)
20,007 (change oil/filter & analysis)
So, it has had 6 engine oil and filter changes.
Jim M.
Hmmm, I guess all a guy can do is watch and see. Any particular "event" during the last interval that you can recall?
jsmiracle
10-19-2006, 07:59
Hmmm, I guess all a guy can do is watch and see. Any particular "event" during the last interval that you can recall?
No. It seems to be running perfect. Other than the UOA report, I have no indications that something may be wrong. I guess I'll chalk this set of results to sample contamination or testing/analysis error and wait for the next UOA report.
I have the remainder of the used oil (that the suspect sample was taken from). Do you think it is worthwhile to send in another sample before the next regular analysis? It was in a drain container and then was poured through a funnel into an empty Amsoil oil container (sample contamination?).
Thanks for ALL the help,
Jim M.
I would just pull another crankcase sample at the regular time.
jsmiracle
10-20-2006, 04:48
Thanks to everyone who shared. I intend to sample at the next interval and report, if abnormal.
Take care,
Jim M.
DmaxMaverick
10-20-2006, 06:58
When you sample, consider 2, and send them in different directions. If you still have some oil you sampled with the "alarming" results, it may be a good idea to have it tested at a different lab. Hopefully you find it was just a fluke. Those results would cause me some concern.
WILLYD-MAX
10-20-2006, 10:41
I have heard of that issue with the amsoil oil and I think it was coming from the oil cooler lines. I talked to Greg Landuyt and he said at around 60k his analisis showed his copper levels finally stabilized. I don't think it is anything to worry about.
jsmiracle
10-21-2006, 11:07
Yes, I do happen to have additional of the "alarming" sample. Sounds like a good idea to send it to another analyzer for a comparison. Does anyone have a recommendation? I have been using "Oil Analyzers, Inc." with Amsoil. Thanks again for the help...
Thanks,
Jim.
DmaxMaverick
10-21-2006, 12:38
I suggest the additional test, along with requesting Amsoil to retest. The results are too far off the trend to assume they are accurate, and not be concerned there is a problem. Your sample may have become contaminated somewhere along the line, either your end or theirs. It's easy to do.
Try www.avlube.com for another testing source.
killerbee
11-01-2006, 10:54
I recently received a UOA Report that indicates that a spike in Copper (Cu) levels and a significant rise in lead (Pb) levels. I have searched TDP forums and it seems to show that the rise in levels could be due to bearing or gasket material as well as lube oil cooler materials.
I also called Oil Analyzers, Inc. and they seemed to not be alarmed. Should I be? The analyst on the phone said that a couple of filter changes ought to bring the levels back to normal. Anyone have any prior experience with this? Thanks.
Copper 13 -> 248
Lead 7 -> 20
Thanks again,
Jim M.
If you are towing with the configuration in your signature, you may find your oil is getting over 350 F in the warm weather. An oil temp gauge will help understand this. I would guess it is your oil cooler.
jsmiracle
11-02-2006, 07:56
If you are towing with the configuration in your signature, you may find your oil is getting over 350 F in the warm weather. An oil temp gauge will help understand this. I would guess it is your oil cooler.
I am towing in the configuration in my signature....
Thanks for the help....
I ordered an oil test kit from AV Lube. I will send a sample in to them of the remaining oil in question. I will post the results in a couple of weeks.
Does anyone see this as typical of an oil cooler in this situation?
Thanks again,
Jim M.
DmaxMaverick
11-02-2006, 08:03
While a possible explanation, I wouldn't call it typical by any means.
Wait for your AVLube results. Maybe we can get him on here to analyze your current and previous results. He's a member here.
jsmiracle
11-02-2006, 16:33
I have a Fumoto drain valve on my truck. The last time I sampled and changed oil the oil was at operating temp. Normally, it is allowed to cool for 1/2 - 1 hr. Is it possible/likely/unlikely to have introduced Cu into the sample? Just wondering......:confused:
Jim M.
I take my samples right off the OilGuard return line as the engine is running. The return line dumps right into the oil filler tube, so I can be finished taking a sample in about two minutes from the time I pop the hood. With the oil piping hot and flowing, you should be seeing exactly what your engine is experiencing.
I have wondered if a sample off the bottom of the oil pan would test differently.
My last test, with 115K on the engine and 17K on the oil had Cu at 10 and Pb at 5.
I sent another sample the other day at 120K because I think I have an injector (or 2?) going.
I always collect my sample from the crankcase (worst case scenario rather than fully filtered) as soon as possible after shutdown on a hot engine. I fill the bottle, dump it, refill, dump again, and keep the third fill. This rinses the bottle.
High cu is fairly common when new, but typically drops after a few oil changes.
2002GMC Durabeast
11-08-2006, 19:15
The copper is from the oil cooler and if you have no or negligible tin then you have no bearing wear. Lead plus tin = wear. Don't panic. Keep doing the oil analysis at regular intervals
jsmiracle
11-09-2006, 06:00
The copper is from the oil cooler and if you have no or negligible tin then you have no bearing wear. Lead plus tin = wear. Don't panic. Keep doing the oil analysis at regular intervals
Thanks. Tin content is 0. I will sample again in January and post the results.
Thanks again,
Jim M.
At about 120K I started noticing smoke in the exhaust and some of the other signs of injectors needing replacement. I took a quick oil sample and sent it off for an analysis. I dropped the truck off at the dealer a couple days later and they started replacing injectors and I had them check and replace the glowplugs at the same time.
I kept pestering the company doing the analysis (I sent the sample priority mail) but they were slow in getting the sample posted to the internet and even though the turnaround on the truck was 8 days (!) the oil sample results did not get back to me for over three weeks. They didn't seem to be able to tell me over the phone, but kept assuring me it would be posted "tomorrow". The truck was still apart when they actually performed the analysis, and a quick report would have allowed the dealer to take a better look while things were apart for injectors. At that point, pulling the heads would have probably added only a couple hours of labor.
Truck got buttoned back up, runs like a dream, mpg up about 1-2 on the first tank and the analysis FINALLY gets posted and shows no fuel in oil but Potassium at 42 (previous readings were 0/3/5/2 on successive samples) with an evaluator comment to check for source of coolant leak.
While the coolant looks a bit low in the overflow tank, I have to admit that I hadn't added a drop or changed it in the four years I have had the truck and it was not something I looked at very often to begin with.
When the injectors were done, I provided the new oil and filters for the changeout. Tech added 12 quarts (I had provided 12, but told him to only add 11 on the changeout (it was in two and a half, 5-qt containers) so I drained the excess. I did notice in the drain container a few very-small (pin head size) bubbles in the oil. Today the DIC low-coolant warning came up on a start and I pulled about a 5-oz sample from the drain pan and put it in a glass jar so I could let it sit and see if there was any sign of separation in the AM.
It is not really apparent to me if I am making any oil. As I say, the truck is running great, so it is not like I suspect a cracked head or blown head gasket. I had thought I would get 1000 miles on the new injectors and send in another sample to see if it would still show a high potassium reading. Wondering now if I should even wait that long or just get it into the dealer.
Worst part is, we plan to head south for the winter in a couple weeks or so, and I am starting to wonder if I should be towing a 14K lb RV down to the DC area or delay the trip a bit while getting things fixed.
I am glad I am sampling, otherwise I probably would have not known for a long time about what may be a coolant leak.
Advice?
Mark Rinker
11-28-2006, 20:13
Whats to say that the oil sample is an insignificant trace and your low coolant indicator is simply consumption elsewhere?
I just replaced a waterpump on my 2001 at 150K. It only leaked occasionally, and then only briefly after a hard pull.
Me? I'd carefully examine the waterpump for any signs of leakage. Same for all the coolant hoses, heater hoses, etc. and rule out any possible coolant leaks before worrying myself sick about engine internals.
In the meantime, I'd monitor the coolant level weekly and pay close attenion to how much coolant was used, and under what conditions.
How many miles on the engine now?
More Power
11-29-2006, 00:53
When I first learned that the Duramax was equipped with a gear driven water pump about 6 years ago, I thought about a potential for coolant in oil.
I have heard of a couple instances of water pump seal failure and coolant in oil. For example, the editor of Diesel World magazine lost the engine in his 2002 Chevy because of this.
I'd do what Mark suggested, then make certain coolant wasn't getting in the oil. I also might be inclined to replace the coolant surge tank cap if you discover a leaky water pump seal. Too much pressure will increase wear on the WP seal.
Jim
Mark Rinker
11-29-2006, 07:19
Jim - great idea on the caps. Nobody even mentioned this to me at the dealership, and it seems likely that mine may be the source for the original pump seal failure (stuck closed), and possibly even the phantom coolant smells underhood since the water pump replacement (stuck open?)
Either way, two new caps will be ordered today for my '01 and '02 and both replaced.
Mark - 121K on the clock, about 600 since they replaced the injectors. I will put it on the lift tomorrow and give everything a really good visual. I read up some on ALLDATADIY.com and I can certainly see now the WP seal issue and the cap pressure makes sense as well.
The loss of coolant troubleshooting list gives a good rundown of places to look for coolant loss, but I don't really see anything simple on it that might potentially leak to the block other than the water pump.
With the harmonic balancer removal requiring removal of the starter and special tool to clamp the flywheel, I am not certain I want to break into the thing to do the pump myself if I see it leaking.
Probably a good time to hit thermostats and hoses too. The oil I pulled yesterday shows no sign of coolant separating. I did notice while I was under there that the lowest part of the oil pan looks lower than the drain plug - meaning that there would always be several ounces at least that would never drain. Unless you drain your oil parked uphill at a 30 degree angle. Anyone else ever notice that?
WILLYD-MAX
11-29-2006, 17:51
Her are some oil analysis results. I switched to Amsoil 15w40 synthetic from Mobile 5w40 synthetic and sampled both just to see if thier was much difference.
Mobile 5w40 Synthetic 8271 mls. Amsoil 15w40 Synthetic 9589 mls.
Iron 14 Iron 12
Lead 2 Lead 2
Cop. 15 Cop. 16
Alum. 4 Alum. 6
Silv. 0 Silv. 1
Silicon 13 Silicon 12
Boron 35 Boron 8
Magn. 600 Magn. 141
Calcium 2685 Calcium 3431
Phosp. 1221 Phosp. 1238
Zinc 1595 Zinc 1507
Molybe. 0 Molybe. 7
Vis.@100 C 13.58 Vis.@ 100 C 14.13
Soot/Solids %Wt. 0.1 Soot/Solids % Wt. 0.1
TBN 9.01 TBN 9.19
Oxid. N/A Oxid. 6.0
Nitr N/A Nitr 7.0
F-Soot 0.14 F-Soot 0.03
Both samples were good for continued use. Anything look abnormal to anyone? I am planning on going 15k on the next one and posting my analysis. My miles are approx. 75% towing anywhere from 15k to 28k gross wt.:)
Where do you send your oil for analysis?
Has the service been good?
What kind of turn-around times do you usually see and how do they inform you of results?
WILLYD-MAX
11-30-2006, 11:36
I buy the sample kits thru Amsoil, they use Oil Analysers Inc. This is my first time using them and it was kinda slow but I attributed it to getting my account set up and so on. They sent it by mail and they can also send via email. Once your setup and you enter a phone # if you send a sample in and it requires immediate attention a tech will call you directly.
Please comment on results from my 1st oil analysis
Done at a local CAT S.O.S. lab.
Oil is Shell Rotella T-Synthetic 5w-40 with 8450 miles w/ Napa Gold Filter
Truck is 2002 D/A, 100% stock, 91,350 miles, original injectors.
Wear Metals (ppm)
Al = 2 ppm
Ba = 0 ppm
Ca = 3323 ppm
Cr = 0 ppm
Cu = 3 ppm
Fe = 9 ppm
Pb = 4 ppm
Mg = 11 ppm
Mo = 1 ppm
Ni = 0 ppm
P = 1308 ppm
K = 4 ppm
Si = 7 ppm
Na = 4 ppm
Sn = 0 ppm
Zn = 1452 ppm
Oil Condition / Particle Count (ct/ml)
Soot = 0
Oxidation = 16
Nitration = 7
Sulfation = 21
Water = None
Antifreeze = None
Fuel = None
V100= Viscosity@100C = 14.1
Excellent ! Very low wear metals.. Did they do the TBN test?
More Power
04-05-2007, 13:35
Iron (Fe) is the most prevalent wear metal in the engine. Chromium (Cr) and molybdenum (Mo) indicate piston ring wear. Lead (Pb), copper (Cu), and tin (Sn) indicate bearing wear/status. Aluminum (Al) is associated with piston wear. Nickel (Ni) typically doesn't exist as a wear metal.
Silicon (Si) usually represents dirt getting past your air filter. A single digit silicon level (like yours) is good.
Elements like magnesium (Mg), calcium (Ca), phosphorous (P) and zinc (Zn) are usually associated with engine oil additives.
A significant combination level of sodium (Na) & potassium (K) could be an indication of the presence of glycol.
Your numbers look good!
Jim
phill0072
04-21-2007, 11:36
Here is my oil analysis for my 06 express van with lly, this is the first oil analysis I have had taken for this unit, miles when taken 49727, miles on oil when sampled 9626 ALL LISTED IN PPM
IRON 12
CHROMIUM 0
LEAD 0
COPPER 14
TIN 0
ALUMINUM 2
NICKEL 0
SILVER 0
SILICON 12
BORON 0
SODIUM 0
MAGNESIUM 74
CALCIUM 3390
BARIUM 0
PHOSPHORUS 1191
ZINC 1359
MOLYBDENUM 0
TITANIUM 0
VANADIUM 0
POTASSIUM 0
FUEL <1%
VIS @ 100c 14.38
WATER 0
SOOT/SOLIDS .2% OF WEIGHT
COOLANT NONE
TBN 8.37 OIL IS 12 WHEN NEW AMSOIL 15-40 PART #AME
OXID 7.0
NITR 10.0
F-SOOT 0.23
I DID CHANGE THE OIL AT THE TIME THE SAMPLE WAS TAKEN PLEASE TELL ME IF I NEED TO WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING GOING ON IN THE ENGINE, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS GOOD OR NOT. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP IN ADVANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D
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