Total Seal Rings

[DA BIG ONE]

Anyone know if total seal rings can be had for the 6.5 td, or?

If so, any data from those who have used them?

[5.7L oldsdiesel]

I've used total seal rings in two 5.7 diesel engines.Both have well over 300,000K.The power level has been the same since day 1.Power has not dropped at all.Both still build speed like a train.The 2nd groove is the gapless ring which is the key to total seal's success with these rings.But they work extremely well.Blowby is virtually eliminated.Gapless rings from total seal are designed well,and are far better than conventional ring sets.I bought my last set on ebay,and i think more sets are available there.

[john8662]

I'd stay away from these rings. They BITE too much, and literally eat the cylinder walls. These rings will be great for a race application for short term, but you will notice excessive cylinder wear as compared to the stock rings.

I've seen this on gasser engines too, but they do seem to go the miles, just you'll have bore the block a bunch to get rid of the ridge rings.

just my .02

[G. Gearloose]

too bad...
5.7, does the oil stay significantly cleaner?

[5.7L oldsdiesel]

The oil does stay a little cleaner,since with its gapless 2nd ring,combustion gases going past the rings is considerably reduced.I just follow the instructions with the ring set and I make sure ring end gaps are correct.They always have been with past sets i've bought.I've never had a problem with these ring sets,and i don't think they are overkill for diesel truck use,but since the 2nd ring is gapless,you can look for an increase in power over stock ring sets,since the ring end gap is blocked with a rail.The power level will not drop in thousands of miles of hard use.

[rjschoolcraft]

I built Total Seal gapless rings into the second groove of my engine. These were converted Mahle second rings. The machining operation relieved residual stress from the rolling operation that formed them originally. They were twisted and warped. I straightened each one, and then lapped to correct the twisting. By measurement, I had 0.002-0.003 in. clearance, but they would bind in the groove because of the twist in the cross section.

If you do not ensure that they are free to move in the groove, you will definitely see cylinder wall wear!

[JoeyD]

Originally posted by ronniejoe:
I built Total Seal gapless rings into the second groove of my engine. These were converted Mahle second rings. The machining operation relieved residual stress from the rolling operation that formed them originally. They were twisted and warped. I straightened each one, and then lapped to correct the twisting. By measurement, I had 0.002-0.003 in. clearance, but they would bind in the groove because of the twist in the cross section.

If you do not ensure that they are free to move in the groove, you will definitely see cylinder wall wear! Wouldn't this be true for any rings? I have only limited use with the Total Seals but they were not much different fitting into the pistons than any other quality rings other than the design of the second ring. The C&H zero gap rings are a little different with the 2 piece second ring design but still don't cause any increased cylinder wear unless installed wrong I would think.

[5.7L oldsdiesel]

I agree.I don't think they'll cause any excessive cylinder wall wear when comparing them to other ring sets.The top ring is a conventional moly ring,the oil control ring in some cases is a 3 piece design.Commonly found in other piston ring brands.The only thing special about this set is the 2nd ring.I doubt that single ring causes problems.Ring ridges are not as common as they used to be anyway.Nowadays low tension rings have been introduced.Those type of rings have less than 14 psi applied to the cylinder wall,reducing cylinder ring ridges.

[john8662]

Originally posted by ronniejoe:
By measurement, I had 0.002-0.003 in. clearance, but they would bind in the groove because of the twist in the cross section.

I know, I know, I'm bringing up an OLD post, but I thought that through some questions that something could be added to this post. Besides, I would have just created the same 'ol thing with a new thread anyways..

Ok Ronnie, is the statement posted above for clearance of the ring in the piston itself OR your actual ring end gap (I 'm sure you're meaning ring clearance to piston though).

I'm intersted in the gapless rings mainly to solve an end gap clearance problem I'm encountering in a current 6.2L build and had some questions.

First off, what clearance did you come to with this ring design (piston ring end gap)? Second, is there a preferred range, obviously you can't have a no-gap situation because of heat and expansion?

Why did you go with the gapless, I'm guessing because of the OS pistons and bore clearance being what it was (mine is .004" and .0045") causing larger gaps on the piston rings. This is what I'm running into, although others that have used the .0035" figure have had specs in the range.

[rjschoolcraft]

The factory manual specifies piston to bore clearance and .0037 - .0047 in. on 1 -6 and .0042 - .0052 on 7 and 8. I built mine (as stated in the second article (http://www.thedieselpage.com/members/features/schoolcraft2.htm)) to .0040 in. on 1 - 5 and to .0045 on 6 - 8.

I checked all piston ring end gaps according to the factory manual. The spec for the second ring .0295 - .0394 in. I checked both the primary ring and the secondary rail of the Total Seal Gapless 2nd ring set to these dimensions. I did not have to adjust any rings to meet the requirements.

What I've done in the past on 350 builds is to buy oversize rings and file the ends to get the gap that I want.

The clearance quoted in the previous post is for ring to groove and is specified as .0015 - .0031 in. for the second ring.

I chose the Total Seal Gapless 2nd rings on the recommendation of Kennedy and based on reading their literature. I also know a late model racer (Don O'Neal, shown on their site) who uses them and likes them. I was looking for better control of the combustion gases.

Hope this helps.

[Kennedy]

Originally posted by john8662:
I'd stay away from these rings. They BITE too much, and literally eat the cylinder walls. These rings will be great for a race application for short term, but you will notice excessive cylinder wear as compared to the stock rings.

I've seen this on gasser engines too, but they do seem to go the miles, just you'll have bore the block a bunch to get rid of the ridge rings.

just my .02 I've heard this too, but yet I run them in My Harley, and my '96 was built with them as well without issue to date. I even had a peek inside of one of my 6.5's at 6k due to block failure and the bore looked new. Gasser Chevy's have a very poor iron and will tend wear bores much more rapidly than a 6.5.


I've heard of a 6.5 (Greg L) that was recently removed/scrapped that had stock rings and the bores were extremely worn. Another 6.2 built by the same builder had gapless and wiped out the bore. A typical 100-200k 6.5 has very little ridge and often still has hone marks in the bore.

Perhaps Dr. Lee could shed some light, but IMHO, if the bore is wiped it would need to be a lubrication issue OR an issue with binding rings most likely due to insufficient end gaps.

[john8662]

Thanks for the replies!

I think that I'm going to get a set of the gapless rings, as I'm really having trouble getting a small enough gap. Like Ronnie, I am concerned with blow-by and wanting it to remain at a minimum, instead of having to rebuild an engine every 100k.

I also now recognize that bores being worn out is probably more of not checking for proper clearances when the engine was assembled, not that the total seal rings were to blame.

[Kennedy]

Originally posted by john8662:
Thanks for the replies!

I think that I'm going to get a set of the gapless rings, as I'm really having trouble getting a small enough gap. Like Ronnie, I am concerned with blow-by and wanting it to remain at a minimum, instead of having to rebuild an engine every 100k.

I also now recognize that bores being worn out is probably more of not checking for proper clearances when the engine was assembled, not that the total seal rings were to blame. The only "worn out bores" that I've heard of all seem to have come from the same source. ;)

Just watch for the twist that RJ pointed out...

[john8662]

Yes, I know what you mean, I have scored bores on the 6.5, among some other things that are not right.

I've been trying and trying to get em on the phone, and I'm about as upset as I can get right now about the ordeal. They don't return calls nor do they answer the phone.

I can contest of the source...

I'll report soon.