New diesels

[ford2chevy]

I read in magazines this weekend Dodges new diesel is still a 5.9L, but has 305hp and 550 ft lbs of torques. You can get a six speed or a crappy 4 auto. Ford on the other had is a 6.0L with 350hp and 600 ft lbs of torque. You can get either a 6 speed or a HD 5 speed auto. Just FYI.

[hoot]

Competition is great, ain't it!

[mackin]

Competition ........... Ha !!!!!!!!!!

Dodges new diesel is still a 5.9L, but has 305hp and 550 ft lbs of torques. You can get a six speed or a crappy 4 auto.

This is certainly one-up-min ship at it's best.................

Juice in the FIRST POWER ...No competition............ :D :D


Ford on the other had is a 6.0L with 350hp and 600 ft lbs of torque. You can get either a 6 speed or a HD 5 speed auto.
Any prices?........

Now this look's like disaster..........Going to be some busy beaver's in there service department........... How built there auto to handle the power ? Ford ?......... In any rate leave the JUICE off, conserve fuel , watch it self distruct ......... Wave as you pass......... :D :D

MAC tongue.gif

[hoot]

MAC,

That's exactly what they said about our DMax.

[mackin]

hoot ,

Exactly,


Competition is great, ain't it!

MAC :D :D

[DetroitBob]

The power and torque listed makes one wonder if F**D, D***E are designing new transmissions to put behind these powerful engines. Their current transmissions can't withstand the power of the current engines and the Allison 1000 will not take more than 375 gross HP and 545 gross torque. What trans are they going to use. Will really be interesting.

BoB

[MNBowTie]

Boys', Boy's, Boy's

D**ge will still be D**ge, However, F**d hasn't been on top of heap for all these years for no reason. Even though they are pushing production up a bit, if, you look at their history it would be hard to bet against history not repeating it's self again. It would take a pretty big beating before I would even consider a switch. Now, ask yourself how many loyal F**d guys are saying same thing.

[Piney]

The May/June issue of Truck Trend lists a 5 speed auto (545RFE) for the new Dodge HD. They don't mention it in the article itself, which seems a little strange, but they list it in the sidebar under "Optional Transmission".

[AlaskaDmax]

Speaking of transmissions,

When I went by the Allison shop this evening, I asked the parts guys if he has been selling many of these filters...he says "Yep, but not to you Duramax guys...been selling them to the bus companies...all the school buses have the exact same transmission".

So then the question would be... What kind of HP and TQ are those buses putting out?

He also told me that the numbers that GM is talkin on the Allison are low....because GM is the one honoring the warranty, not Allison. So in a move to keep the warranty repairs to a minimum they under state the ability of the Allison...

That is what the guy said...whether it is true, I do not know. But I thought it was cool that they are using the 1000 in school buses, and I have one in my P/U. :D

[bearman]

Gentelmen
I was hopeing with these new diesel engines that are coming out, that we could talk about them from a reality stand point. I agree with you guys that these Dmaxes are the best thing since sliced cheese, but there is competion coming.I would like to hear some facts about these engines, not hearsay, not BS, and not flamed like the D**ge and F**d boards. I don't read the other boards much because there is so much B*ll 5hit about GM it is anoying. I have driven all three diesels, they all have there good points and bad points. All I am trying to say is lets keep the flame wars to a minimum and act our age So I can keep reading this superior board.
Cheers
Bear

[mackin]

bearman,

All right I'll keep it in line, and responsible .... Just a little dig, That's all............ I'm still not showing my age tho.........Just turned 22 .... Unless you can prove else wise ............. You be quiet CHEVYHDMAN..........
MAC :D :D

[KompressorMan]

The May/June issue of Truck Trend lists a 5 speed auto (545RFE) for the new Dodge HD.

Piney,
Allison makes a 545 transmission, but I'm not sure what they'd have to do to put it in a pickup.
We have one in a Freightliner behind a Cat. Physically, it's a lot bigger than our 1000. Also, it's just a four speed.
Herb

[IndigoDually]

Alaska, School busses, "Ryder" rental trucks etc. are mostly low horsepower trucks. The average fleet lease/rental truck in the 20,000-30,000 gvw. range has a 170-210 hp. motor. I am not sure what the torque ratings are but they are not powerhouses by no means. The D-Max torque is as high or higher in the torque department.

John

[Piney]

Bear,
I agree. I find the advancements that Ford and Dodge are making very interesting. No doubt, all the diesels that are available are very capable and distinct. I think the majority of us (even the ones that throw an occasional jab) realize that all of 'em are good trucks and each have their virtues. My cousin is a Dodge diesel Tech and he just got through with a training course. Chrysler is telling them that they have focused on the noise level of the new HO Cummins and that the new version will be very quiet (at least in comparison to the old). He also made it sound like there would be two versions of the Cummins available...a High Output and a standard version??..

Herb,
The article I'm referring to lists a four speed auto as a 48RE. Then it lists a five speed auto as 545RFE. It doesn't list a manufacturer and like I said the article doesn't talk about transmissions at all. The Dodge web site also lists details about the new HO Cummins, but nothing about transmissions. Seems like they should be touting the transmission just as they do the engine, huh?

[hoot]

I wonder if the number 545 is a hint to Allison.

[tbrowne]

Since we're talking engines, does anyone know what the respective Ford, Dodge, GMC engine weights as installed in the trucks? I've heard the Dodge is considerably heavier than the GM and Ford engines and I'd like to know their actual weights. I tend to think that weight is not a virtue unless it significantly contributes to long life and reliability.

[SoCalDMAX]

Hi Guys,

The Dmax has helped to foster some of this competition, no doubt. I didn't choose one truck over another based on a few hp either way and I don't think most people do it either.

From the little bits and pieces I've heard, both Ford and Dodge have been limited by their transmission's power handling capability, not by the engines themselves. I don't know what they're doing about trannies, either beefing up an existing design or starting from scratch.

IIRC, the new Cummins is basically the same engine as the old, with the Bosch common rail fuel injection system like ours. It will definitely be much quieter than the old Cummins, perhaps as quiet as the Dmax. I agree with the engineers, don't mess with success on that motor, it's bottom end is "strong like boulder" and the motor is capable of huge power. An I-6 is inherently better balanced than a V-8 engine and the design can take a lot of stress. The only complaint I ever heard about the ENGINE was the noise, and that doesn't really bother too many people.

IIRC, the G2 is basically redesigned from the bottom up. IMHO, Ford really messed up on the current HEUI injection. It's running on lower fuel pressure than Navistar recommended, plus the cackle problem, and the oil needs to changed regularly for the injectors to operate properly.

Greg L. posted that he'd seen a G2 running on a dyno and it was not quite prime time. The top end also appeared to be constructed strangely, with a lot of gaskets, making him think it may turn into a leaker.

From a comparison standpoint, I think all 3 engines will perform their duties well. They have 10 times more in common than different. Unfortunately, one can't choose one motor and put it into any truck he wants unless he's willing to do a LOT of work. I'm willing to add a module or tweak a little, but a powertrain transplant is morethan I want to tackle.

I think people will still buy a specific truck based on what's important to them: more power or smooth ride or quiet engine or crew cab or styling or brand loyalty, etc.

Regards, Steve

[toyboxrv]

According to information I read on the Dodge sites, the new Cummins has a redesigned block to help reduce noise and vibration in addition to the benefits of the common rail injection. The 545 transmission is a 5spd, but only available with the new Hemi. The 48RE is a 4 spd that will be available with the HO Cummins after the first of the year. Until that time the auto trans Cummins will get by with less HP. I know all of this is true because the guys on the Dodge sites never spread any rumors.

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: toyboxrv ]</p>

[DetroitBob]

AKDmax - The Allison 1000 series is rated at 375 gross HP and 545 lb gross torque.
KMan, Hoot-Allison does or did produce a transmission referred to as AT540/542/545. All were 4 speed, hydraulicly controlled and used a modulator cable for throttle position input and to cause down shifting. They do not have a park pawl as the 1000 series, you must have a good parking brake or use chocks. They are similiar in operation to a TH400/TH350. Some people have used the converter on TH400 behind 454 bigblocks, especially in GM powered motorhomes. They weigh about 50-60 lbs less than the 1000 series and are physically about the same size. They will fit in a 2 wd pickup. 4wd is another matter

BoB

[NickLeinonen]

from what i have read on the ford-diesel forum, that new G2 stroker will have a cooled egr system right from the start. i don't like that idea. dodge in their cummins won't have an egr system until 2004.5 model year [products made in 2004 year] i don't know about the d-max. cali. seems to have it now [the egr thing], but when will the rest of north america see it?

i do know that i will be buying a truck in summer 2003, and i want diesel, but i don't want egr [bad experiences with my current 6.5 w/egr system] my family has been gm brand loyal, and that has seemed to rub off on me. i would like a dmax/6sp/ec/sb/4x4, but if egr comes into play, nope...

i have nothing against the enviroment, but egr systems simply do not work well on diesels. if you have an egr to cut down the nox, you'll need a soot trap [that last a year or so] to catch all the hydrocarbon emmision that will result from it.

oh well..........

[hoot]

Good thing is the emmisions, and engine for that matter has a pretty darn good warranty. If a catalytic is used, it also falls under 5/100,000 warranty.

Anyone that will not buy because of emission controls would still be driving 60's cars and trucks today.

I think egr is coming big time by 2007. All the big diesel guys are going cooled egr.

[Piney]

"Greg L. posted that he'd seen a G2 running on a dyno and it was not quite prime time."


Steve,
That is interesting. Do you know where I can find that thread???

[NickLeinonen]

i am all for good emmisions, but the devices used to control them should be better than a disposable soot trap & cooled egr system. all diesels will smoke. how long will the egr cooler stay clear of soot deposits that will plug it up and render it useless. i can live with an egr system if it has no soot trap, or a soot trap with no egr system. if you look at scania truck engines, they have a 16L v8 and some 11L - 14L I6's diesels [one has a trick twin turbo setup. one turbo pumps air, one turbo is connected to the flywheel. claims it gives an extra 14hp] that have no egr systems or soot traps, yet, they will pass pretty much any emission test. engineering and design got them that way. egr and soot traps are add on's that should not be required if the engine is running at it's best...

that is just my opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own..

[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: NickLeinonen ]</p>

[SoCalDMAX]

Piney,

I've been searching for that post for the last 2 days and can't find it. I believe it was moved to the Ford diesel forum, which is now gone. I'm sure he didn't mean that it had any problems, just that it still had a lot of testing/tuning to go and the deadline for production is looming (8/02).

Maybe you could post a question for Greg and we can get an update on the G2, if he's seen it lately.

Regards, Steve

[big dipper]

Not sure if anyone will be interested in this, but...
Chrysler was negotiating with Allison for their trans and last year when they announced the closing of some plants they were backing out. After 9-11, it was pretty much a no go. Last I heard was that Ford has been talking with Allison for the past 10-12 months and in the recent, have been getting serious. Not sure how true this is since I read the same stuff you do and see that they already have a trans of their own. What I am sure about is that there are going to be a few Ford "big wigs" at the Allison plant here in Maryland, and IIRC it is this coming week.

[thechevyhdman]

Ok I own a GMC school bus with a CAT 3126 engine in it. Its rated at 520 ft-lbs, and 207 hp. The 1000 series could handle it, but I may be wrong the tranny in the bus looks identical to the one in our pickups except bigger, could it be the 2000 series transmission?, Secondly this makes me laugh, the Ford Tonka truck with the 6.0 litre diesel will be running a Ford made transmission it is a prototype so who knows what the real deal is, but I thought I read Eaton was going to make the tranny for the new Fords. Oh yeah I heard a good one on the letters for ford. Fu**er Only Runs Downhill. I dont know I mean a 6.0 litre engine pushing that much power seems like a bit much to me, Did you guys see a while back what that guy wrote on the new Ford diesel, Its gonna have tons of BS on it. Powdered metal pushrods, HEUI fuel system, Tons of stuff that makes me so much happier I own a DMAX. I thought this engine was complicated, these Ford techs are going to need a NASA engineer just to change the oil in em.

[DetroitBob]

Thechevyhdman. The 1000/2000/2400 series Allisons are all the same physical size, have the same oil capacity, and weigh the same. The 1000/2400 series have an internal parking pawl where as the 2000 is available with or without an external auto apply parking brake either drum or disc on the drive line. The general power ratings for all 3 series are the same and the GVW and GCW are higher for the 2000/2400 series.

BoB

[01_Duramax_Dually]

Why do we compare? Honestly. I used to do this routinely years back then decided what was the point? I am always interested in technological advancements but that does make me like or dislike them anymore or less than I do now. I bought my new one only because my 96 Dually Gasser had 96K miles was not efficient(4.9-5.8mpg towing). I wanted a Diesel

Bottomline, this is what feeds the car market. All of them trying to "one up" the competitors product. Make it Faster, stronger better and us consumers will say "UHHHHHH!, I got to have the Biggest, The Best and the Fastest, time for a new truck".... :D .

I think Dodge and Ford have solid trucks and would have to believe they have evaluated the weaknesses of the current trucks and made adjustments. GM did and look what they built. I do have to say now that the DMAX is out on the road and performing quite well, the "doubting Thomas's" are pretty scarce other than the few metallurgical engineers who still believe in molten Aluminum.... :rolleyes:

Let the Ford and Dodge boys do what they will while we enjoy our DMAX trucks...

[Derek M]

Going off what big dipper explained. Dodge was rumored to use the 1000 series, but bad blood in the DCX vs GM lawsuit over the Jeep likeness of the Hummer H2 grill broke ties for the Dodge Allison usage. Since the break with Allison was late in the development cycle for the new Dodge HD, they had to back pedal to place a transmission under the new trucks. That's why Dodge is going to introduce the new Cummins reduced power 250/460 and mate it to the same 47RE tranny that was used in the previous trucks. Beginning after the first of the year the 48RE will be offered with the full output Cummins 305/555. It's rumored the 48RE is the same tranny as the 47RE just with more electronics as to include a heavy dose of torque management in handling the full output Cummins.

I'm not saying all the above is true or absolute in any form, though through the rumor mill this is how I understand it. That's my little disclaimer. smile.gif

[ 05-14-2002: Message edited by: Derek M ]</p>