"cold" start white smoke...new eng,plugs,inj...long

[MyWE4]

I am at the end of my chain with this thing....Please,this has to be simple

1995 K2500 PU, vin. S
new low comp.eng,new GM glow plugs,GM inj.,glow plug relay..reman inj pump, oil sending unit,lift pump, (All work done by me)
the eng swap (with the new inj and Plugs)was done with the old inj pump,that pump died soon after the eng was running with the new eng...(it smoked then too..)
I put in the reman. pump and it ran GREAT down the road..it just pumped white smoke cold.

I put clear inj. hose and would get air from an overnite sit
I found that the return lines @ the tank were rotted and the return line had a pin hole in it..replaced the tank,sending unit...I cut back the frame feed /return to get into some clean line and ran fresh fuel line...
it would start better,but would still mis and puff ..a lot..
I just put Kennedys return line kit on last nite and it is not any better
as far as I can tell I have the return system sealed???
I read that a inj could leak down overnite and do this ,BUT these are new GM inj!!??
I think I have the Timing set properly but I will recheck and post the #
I also read that the inj lines crossed could do this,but this runs GOOD after the AM start????
I will still check this later when I check the timing..(with a Tech 1)
I know I have not givin all the info I could but I hope this gives us something to start with
Thank You
Chris

[MyWE4]

BTW, by cold I am talking 60-80deg....not cold by any means
thanks again
Chris

[Shad]

Keep searching posts... I sold mine a couple of months ago for the same symptoms. Sounds like your on the right track but listen to the experts here. Good luck!

[BUZZ]

Chris,
Sounds like you have covered the leaks. After all the line replacement do you still have air in the pump return?
Another thing to check is the cold advance sensor located in the Tstat housing crossover pipe. Disconnect and see if it starts any better.
Good luck
Buzz

[MyWE4]

Ok I have made forward movement with this thing!!

First I rechecked/set the TDC time Set to +2.6-3.5 and the TDC offset is -.18
on a "cold" start the truck will "puff"smoke and "hunt" for it's idle for a few moments ..then it is ok

BUZZ,
I checked the numbers of the coolant sensor ....all looked fine...but,I unplugged it anyway(it couldn't make it worse!!)
IT FIRED UP PERFECT!!!!!!(except for the extra rattling).. I am talking glow plugs out,turn key,a short shot of black smoke,idling! bam!
I plugged the sensor back in and drove the truck..it ran great... I set the cruise and sat back to look at the TECH 1 readings...then the Check eng light came on !!??!! I pulled the codes and it had a throttle code or two ,with some other odd balls..I pulled off the road so I did not wreck,shut the truck down and restarted it..all was well then I went to look at the codes again and they were GONE!!!??(I will have pen and paper handy when I drive next time)
the first thing I thought of was a bad ECM.
I got one and plugged it in and there is NO DIFFERENCE!!!???
I plugged a new sensor in (did not screw it in) but it made no difference..as I said,the readings are ok

I feel good because the mechanical should be ok
any thought??
Thanks!!!
Chris Devlin

[rjschoolcraft]

That really sounds like a glow plug issue. Have you checked each plug to make sure that they are all good?

By unplugging the ect sensor, you forced the computer to give maximum glow time. That seems to have helped your starting problem.

[BUZZ]

RJ has a point, you may have weak plugs. The other thing that interests me are the sudden codes that went away. This leads me to think ignition switch related, provided the grounds and connections are good. There are reported problems with the switch slowly going bad and throwing codes and no starts as well due to voltage drop. I don't know if this would cause rough starts though.
I suppose it could but I am not asking you to throw money at the problem. I know this my truck starts best cold after a hard towing trip. Other wise starts like yours, but my nozzles have 155,000 on them.
Oh yea I think these low comp engines really like to spin during start. Make sure the starter is up to task.

Buzz

[DmaxMaverick]

Stay with the glow plug suspect.

When you say "GM glow plugs", do you mean AC60G's?

If so, they require a longer glow time than what originally came on your truck, 11G's. Disconnecting your ECT sender "tells" the PCM it's really cold out, and needs a maximum glow cycle.

Either extend the glow time, or install some quick heats. Quick heats would be the easiest, and perhaps less expensive in the long run. They are $80 a set.

[charliepeterson]

Chris;

Go to the top of this page and hit the "search" feature. Type in "more glow time". The archives have some hits on how to and why to do this.

[Eduardo]

You may want to check this thread at the bottom of the first page.

http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008295

Good luck.

[MyWE4]

can't buy the glow plug deal....here is why...

the truck has sat for two days,I unplugged the coolant sensor
turned the key to the glow plugs..I counted to five and turned the key.

the truck started INSTANTLY!! and idled perfectly

I turned it off and plugged in the sensor and waited for the light to go off(maybe 7-10sec.) the truck started (with LOTS of smoke)nearly died,jumped back up ...it did this up and down for a moment or two and then came to a idle..

I am going to look at the ignition switch wires and see what powers the ECM and check that

I want to hear some thoughts and ideas!!!
tell me where I am wrong!!
I have to figure this out!!

Thanks again!!
Chris

[DmaxMaverick]

Your above scenario says it IS the glow plugs or controller (glow time). Hands down. No question. If it weren't, unplugging the ECT sender would not have changed it. Your current glow plugs need to glow longer. Period. Unplugging the sender proved that. Replacing your original 11G plugs with 60G plugs would predictably result in what you have now. Been there. Done that. Several times.

.......A man is crawling around on the sidewalk under a street lamp. A passerby stops and asks what he is doing. "I dropped my money and I'm looking for it", he says.
The stranger offers to help him look. They look for nearly an hour. The stranger says, "Are you sure you dropped your money? We've looked everywhere, and it is nowhere to be found."
"Yes, I dropped it. I'm sure of it."
The stranger says, "There is nowhere else to look. You will have to find it on your own."
The man says, "Actually, I dropped in the alley over there somewhere."
The stranger replies, rather coursely, "What in tarnation are we looking here for!?!"

"Well.", the man says. "The light is better here."


Look for whatever you think you need to. But, correct your glow plugs or cycle issue before you look for anything else.

[rameye]

I'm wondering...

doesn't the temperature sensor also have something to do with advancing the pump also?

If he just started it, idled it and it ran fine..
than shut it off, plugged in the sensor and restarted it with a white smoke...is the glow plug heat cycle still an issue seeing the cylinders are warm?

i dunno..

[MyWE4]

I am not arguing with anyone!!!
I am just telling you what is happening and I don't see the glow plugs as the problem!!!!
I will have to pull one of the plugs to get the part #

That said....
I just went to the truck (overnight cold),unplugged the sensor, turned the key and if I waited three seconds,that was pushing it,turned to start and it fired instantly!!
a little extra BLACK smoke but it was smooth and gone in an instant????
I have chased my tail on this thing enough,I am just glad to have the info from this board

could the glow plug circuit get its power normally through the ignition switch and by unplugging the temp.sensor it bypasses it??
I will hook up the Tech 1 and see if I can energize the glow plugs and start it with the temp. sensor hooked up..??...I have to go ...the tourists are going to have the bridge to home jamed up soon
thanks again!!
Chris

[ 07-30-2005, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: MyWE4 ]

[DmaxMaverick]

I'm not saying the GP's are the only problem, but troubleshooting a cold starting problem with a poor GP system really slows the process. Eliminate the GP's first. Bypass the controller if you must, but get the GP's up to full, first.

The Sender will have an effect on the timing advance. If you leave it unplugged, the timing and idle speed may be undesirable, even up to operating temp. Unplugging the sender is not a fix, but a diagnostic tool. If you have AC60G's installed, and have not modified the GP cycle, you will have issues with it, especially if you also have other cold starting problems. The 60G's require twice the juice to come up to the same temp as the 11G's. I also have a '95 2500, so I'm not just shooting from the hip. Been there. Done that.

Troubleshooting is a scientific process. If you change more than one thing at a time, and the problem changes, then you really haven't learned anything.

[nigeljones]

Here we go again!!!

Shad and I had this same very problem earlier this year and I thought I had taken care of it.
I have also replaced every possible component with new ones and then some.

I check all ground straps used di-electric grease on all possible connections. New temp coolant sensor.
I have compression tested the engine and all cylinders are within spec. There appears to be no coolant loss for the cracked cylinder issue

Every time I would replace an item the truck appeared fixed for a week or two then start to re-occur. Ambient air temperature seemed to be connected with the problem when temperatures were below 40 deg that's when I had the problem, however, as the spring changed into summer the problem has continued. Today it is 85 deg and it smoked terrible at first start up. There is also a shudder or hesitation for the first mile or so.

I now have replaced the G/Plugs once with 60g's and also with quick heats with no luck. (Currently running with the quick heats)and Yes I have replaced the G/Plug timer with NO improvement.
I have checked twice both the currrent draw and the voltage to each wire and also replaced the terminal's spades with NO improvement.
I then replaced the timing chain whilst doing the coolent pump as that was offered up as a possible cause w/ No improvement.
Then begrudgingly and for just s**ts and giggles and $650, I replaced the IP pump w/ 20,000 miles on it with a new one as it was the only thing left to do. This I thought was the answer! It ran much better seemed stronger and I set the TDC offset at -1.76.
Convinced I thought it was fixed ( Although Shad had changed the IP on his truck with No luck)I took the truck and travel trailer out west to Arizona for the summer vacation completed 5,000 miles with no smoke. I was only back a week and the smoke is back.

Now I'm sharing all this info with you because my wife who drives it mostly tells me that it happens mostly when damp after rain and is conviced it's an electrical problem. Hense, why I used die-electric grease prior.

Now I had to have the Air conditioning fixed prior to the vacation days before actually and I one of the parts that was replaced was the evaporator. The large wire harness at the back of the engine was routed in front of it and seemed to close to the turbo so it was routed behind it against the firewall. Well when starting up the truck it would not start. After wiggling the harness she fired right up.

Sorry for the length of this post, but don't waste your time and money as Shad and I have, in vain trying to fix this issue. :mad:

It has to be electrical broken wire something that is affected by moisture/humidity. So has anyone else had problems with this harness that might cause the problem?

[nigeljones]

Thanks smile.gif

[Kennedy]

Either upgrade the plugs, or add a manual push button overide for the first start of the day. Then set timing.

Unplugging the ECT sensor gives max glow duration and max cold start timing as it tells the ECM that it is -40

[MyWE4]

Thank you all for the input!!

your suggestions are not falling on deaf ears!!..

I pulled a plug and got the # off it...
ISKRA 11 721 715 11V
let me guess, they are the wrong ones???


just to clarify,I am aware that I can not run without the ECT sensor plugged in...I just found it odd that the truck would start instantly WITH OUT waiting for the glow plug light to go out or the glow plugs to heat up!!
but if the ECM changes the timing you think that may be enough for a clean fire??

I will do a search on the override button

Thank you again!!
Chris

[Kennedy]

For manual activation, I use a simple plow type solenoid (must be continuos duty primary to last) and place the output on the output of the OE controller. You can then add glow time pre or post OE timed cycle.

You must have self regulating plugs like the ones that I sell to do this.

[MyWE4]

I hooked up a temporary button and when on for about 15 seconds the truck starts fairly clean..

What kind of plugs are in this thing now??
part # ISKRA 11 721 715 11V
I did a search ... and found nothing on that #

I saw in a search where someone put a relay in the ECT sensor line,tied to the oil sending unit...this sounds interesting..(no button to push)
Bad idea??

I don't like ether idea because it seems 'half ass'....but the relay sounds fool proof??..

I feel I am seeing the end with this thing....

Thanks again for putting up with me!!
Chris

[nigeljones]

So the question is why do you extend the glow cycle. What is different which causes this condition.

And I realise the longer the glow the hotter the tip and so on. But that seemed pretty reasonable in the winter months at below zero. However, I'm now at 80 plus degrees and first start I have smoke. So what's going to happen in the winter now.

Anyone had any thoughts on other electrical issues.

[rjschoolcraft]

What is your timing set at?

[MyWE4]

I set the timing to -1.85

I also hooked up a relay to the ECT sensor.
this truck gets oil pressure so fast that it will puff a little after start..(just a little) but if/when it gets cold I feel it will smoke..


does ANYONE have the info of the plug # I posted??? I need to show that these are the wrong plugs to justify the purchase of new ones...
thank you
Chris

[DmaxMaverick]

I have no idea what those plugs are. Never heard of 'em. I tried a search for the numbers you posted and came up with zip. If they're poor knock-off's of a 60G, they could be the problem with your current situation. Also, long glow times with an inferior plug could lead to serious issues in the future. They could require a head removal, and in the extreme, serious internal damage, like broken valves/pistons.

If you are glowing for 15 seconds, and starting improved, it should be evident what the problem is. The plugs themselves. 15 seconds is a loooooooong time. A quick heat plug will give all it has in about 5 seconds. You may have just killed your current plugs (or seriously shortened their life) with a 15 second glow.


Do yourself a favor. Spend the $80 for Kennedy Quick Heats and be done with it. They are fast heating, and won't overheat. Even if you need a long glow time with them, they are thermistor protected. I doubt you will need a longer time with them, as long as your controller is working.

When it gets colder, starting should not be effected, other than what is to be expected. That is why the ECT sender is included in the glow controller circuit.

Fast rising oil pressure should have nothing to do with smoking, at all. A poor glow system will cause smoke.

Timing should not be an issue, if you are in fact set at -1.85. If you are in the arctic, in the dead of winter, perhaps. But not now, for sure.