EGR eats pistons?

[Black Dog]

Hmmm.

Reprinted from Aug. 02 "Automotive Engineering".

"Testing for EGR corrosion
A technology that reduces emissions could cause severe abrasion and corrosion to heavy-duty diesel engine pistons. Lab tests demonstrated that increased cylinder pressures and higher piston temperatures riddle conventional aluminum as well as steel pistons with microscopic surface holes.
"As engine manufacturers seek to reduce emissions through technologies such as exhaust gas recirculation (EGR), engine environments will become harsher and cylinder pressures will increase," said Keri Westbrooke, Director of Product Technolog-Heavy Duty for Federal-Mogul Corp.'s Advanced Technology Center in Ann Arbor, MI.
To accelerate piston wear rates, more than 8000 hours of engine testing with cooled external EGR systems were conducted. Test cycles, engine timing, and the engine oil's soot content exceeded application norms as a means of fast-forwarding the effects of abrasion, corrosion, and component oxidation.
The resulting damage predicted to transpire from EGR influences on the pistons was dramatic. "Two four times the normal piston ring and liner wear could result," said Westbrooke, adding, "A one-million-mile truck diesel engine's life expectancy could be halved. However, if we now use the latest technology for pistons, rings, and liners, the engine's life span is maintained at its previous non-EGR levels, or even exceeded."
Federal-Mogul engineers and technicians tested various liner materials and coatings, more than 30 ring materials - including three chrome variants and more than 12 plasma coatings-as well as face coatings. Following the extensive lab testing, a patented one-piece, all-steel piston was engineered and developed at t Federal-Mogul's Advanced Technical Center.

[deerhunter7]

I wonder if the EGR system is whats causing the carbon build up in the Vortec Engines..??

[NickLeinonen]

take a look at an older NA 6.2 diesel intake with egr. it can get so plugged up that it stalls. i say egr in diesel is NFG. when there is boost, it should not be on.. it only has no boost at no load.. at that point, not much fuel is injected and not that much heat is created so not too much nox is created

[csimo]

EGR in a diesel is a killer. Our Duramax engines (except California models) don't have EGR yet. They will have it for 2004 though.

I don't know of ANY diesel engine that has sucessfully integrated EGR for the long term. I believe that both the new Cummins ISBe and the G2 Powerstroke have EGR integrated.

It remains to be seen if EGR will be a killer for those engines too.

[mackin]

Cough ,cough,Cali.cough ,cough.fornia,cough ,cough,su,cough,cough,cks,cough,cough........

MAC

[GBurton]

mackin

If you think california EGR rules are bad, try these on for size.

1)You are at the lake with your boat. You and some of your friends have had a few too many brewskis and you get into trouble with the law while operating your boat. You can loose your drivers license! That's right, there is no requirement to have a drivers license to operate a boat but if you are caught operating a boat, jet sky while DUI you can loose your automobile drivers license. :mad:

2) You are driving your truck and are arrested for DUI. You go to court and beat the charge, DMV can still pull your license! :mad:

No, I have not had either problem since I do not drink but I still think those and other california laws, stink!! (Like 55mph limits on big rigs and RV trailers.

George

[bora]

I have not yet seen a big rig actually going 55.
The first time I was towing, I was going 55 and I think about 100 or so big rigs passed me on 5.

The 55 limit for big rigs / trailers is horrible.

[ndamico]

I Agree with you completely about Kalifornia! Our lovely state has some completed jacked up laws that make it not-so-nice a place to live anymore.

I usually tow my boat at 65-70MPH. If I go 55, the trucks always fly by me. None of those guys go 55! smile.gif

[john2]

Am I understanding correctly that the 2002 Duramax diesel does not have to woory about the egr pitting problem?

[bora]

Yes, unless you live in California, we already have the EGR.

Chevron Delo 400 datasheet says that it is specifically designed for use in engines with EGR.

[csimo]

The most interesting integration of EGR is in the new Cummins ISBe. They are taking the approach that the EGR problems (clogged intakes, piston pitting, etc.) are due to the temp. of the EGR stream.

Their new engine has EGR, but it goes through an intercooler of sorts. They call it "cooled" EGR.

Since we seem to be locked into EGR on all diesel engines very soon I hope that someone finds a way to make it work without destroying things.

Maybe Cummins is on to the answer?

[D-max Man]

Here is a recent press release from Detroit Diesel dealing with this subject.


DETROIT DIESEL SUBMITS APPLICATIONS TO THE EPA TO CERTIFY THE SERIES 60
ENGINE

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
Detroit, Michigan, August 14, 2002 - Detroit Diesel Corporation (DDC)
confirmed that today it submitted applications to the EPA for emissions
certification of its Series 60 diesel engines. These initial emission
certification applications will cover 20 of the currently available Series
60 engine ratings. All will be fully compliant to the October 2002 emission
requirements. Additional ratings will be submitted for certification in the
following months.

By October 1, DDC will have accumulated approximately eight million test
miles on its fleet of test vehicles equipped with October 2002 prototype
engines. Also by October 1, 27 different fleets will have engines in
operation, in addition to the factory owned test units.
"Of course, we are well aware of the questions some truckers have about the
Series 50 and 60 engines equipped with exhaust gas recirculation (EGR),"
says John Morelli, Vice President of the Series 60 2002 Engine Program. "For
those who may not be aware of it, EGR has been used on the Series 50 since
2000. We have over 2500 units in operation and I want to reassure the
trucking industry that these Series 60 and 50 engines are excellent
products.
"I know there has been a great deal of discussion about increased
maintenance intervals, along with questions about reliability and life to
overhaul. But, now that we have all these test miles under our belt, we are
confident that the new engines will continue to meet our customers'
expectations. The warranty on these engines remains exactly the same - not
even one word in the warranty has changed. There is no difference in the
recommended oil change intervals because the soot concerns have not
materialized. There is no change in the required maintenance schedule and
there are no additional parts subjected to maintenance requirements. EGR is
actually quite a simple device, as can be seen on the enclosed photograph."

Morelli continued, "As far as durability is concerned, we couldn't be more
pleased at this time. The life of the piston ring is actually the key to
long engine life and we have now confirmed that ring face wear is 78% lower
on the EGR engines when compared to our current engines.
"In addition, everyone who drives the EGR engines -- including members of
the press -- comments about the excellent drivability, throttle response and
engine braking performance. There also were some concerns in the industry
about adding weight, but we were actually able to reduce the weight of the
Series 60 by an additional 25 pounds, so it now weighs several hundred
pounds less than the other big-bore engines.

On the subject of fuel economy Morelli said, "We are currently within a
couple percentage points of our target. And, we will continue to fine tune
the engine and improve the combustion process.

Morelli reports that DDC recently downloaded information from a truckload
carrier customer's truck after running one of the EGR engines all winter.
The truck was in regular revenue service, geared at 72 mph, with an overall
average vehicle speed of 55.6 mph. That truck averaged 6.91mpg. "I think
most truckers would have to agree that 6.91 mpg, in the winter, fully
loaded, and running at up to 72 mph is pretty good fuel economy," Morelli
said.

"We just looked at the latest Polk registration data, and it's pretty clear
that the Series 60 will be the number one selling engine in North America
again this year, which makes it 11 years in a row. The bottom line is that
the Series 60 engines are proven, popular and will be certified to EPA
standards, and I don't think truckers have to be worried about all the talk
about increased maintenance costs. We just haven't seen that."

Detroit Diesel Corporation, headquartered in Detroit, Michigan, is engaged
in the design, manufacture, sale and service of heavy-duty diesel and
alternative fuel engines, automotive diesel engines and engine-related
products. The company offers a complete line of engines from 22 to 13,000
horsepower for the on-highway, off-road and automotive markets and is a
QS-9000 certified company. Detroit Diesel services these markets directly
and through a worldwide network of more than 2,700 authorized distributor
and dealer locations. Detroit Diesel is a subsidiary of DaimlerChrysler AG,
the world's leading manufacturer of heavy-duty diesel truck engines. Within
DaimlerChrysler AG, DDC is part of the Powersystems Business Unit.
###


DaimlerChrysler Powersystems

[csimo]

D-max Man,

Thanks for posting that PR. I found it interesting to read, but I question some of the claims in the release (not doubting you D-max Man, but rather DC/DD).

Let me start off by saying I am NOT an expert on Class 8 engines so please excuse some of my ignorance.

An obvious misstatement is: "We just looked at the latest Polk registration data, and it's pretty clear that the Series 60 will be the number one selling engine in North America
again this year, which makes it 11 years in a row." I guarantee you that the Series 60 is not the best selling engine in NA, nor even the best selling diesel engine in NA. Perhaps it's the best selling engine for Class 8? I even kinda doubt that, but have no numbers to prove either way. I didn't think DD was still a major player in the Class 8 engines. I thought that Cummins had the lion's share of the market... am I wrong?

Anyway, I would like to know more about their EGR setup. I suppose they have a lot more room to work with than on our smaller engines. That should make it easier, but still doesn't solve the problem. Anybody have any more info on this?

[SoMnDMAX]

Here's more reading...

http://www.caterpillar.com/products/engines_n_power_systems/shared/truck_engines/01_truck_engine_info^specs/03_electronics/acert/acert.html

[csimo]

Sounds like Caterpillar ACERT technology is superior to Cooled EGR, but only time will tell. I certainly like their method much better than Cooled EGR!

Our Duramax engines are exempt from the EPA October 2002 deadline. That deadline only applies to engines manufactured before 1998. The Duramax will be required to meet the 2004 deadline. The VERY unfortunate thing is that GM/Isuzu seem to think that EGR is the answer. It's not!

I hope that with Isuzu stepping out of DMAX, Ltd. GM may make some changes. I think the departure of Isuzu is overall a bad thing, but all we can do is hope.

[D-max Man]

I don't have all the details yet but what I have been told is that the US EPA sued the big 3 diesel manufacturers over air pollution issues and won.

As part of the settlement, the big three agreed that instead of paying the fines, they would meet the 2004 emissions standards this year (on highway engines only). If they fail to meet those standards, they will have to pay a $12,000.00 fine (as per court settlement) for every engine produced that doesn't comply.

From what I am being told (By DDC personal), The series 60 meets those standards now and that is what the press release I posted above was referring to. I have also been told that neither Cat nor Cummins can meet those standards yet.

I wonder how this is going to affect the price of their engines in the future?

Csimo,

I have a chart showing the numbers from Polk, but I am having trouble uploading it from a Power Point presentation.

[csimo]

Yes there was a lawsuit, but I believe it was settled before a verdict... in any case there was an agreement in 1988. That agreement has been adopted by the EPA and applies to all "medium and heavy duty diesel engines". There are three important dates:

October 2002: All diesel engines that were in manufacture at the time of the agreement (1988) must meet this phase to reduce NOx emmisions. Any engine that was not yet available to the public in 1998 are exempt from this phase (thus our Duramax engines).

2004: All diesel engines must meet the reduced NOx emissions. This pulls in the Duramax and all diesel engines marketed after 1998.

2007: They tighten down the screws one more step for emissions.

To date I am aware of ONLY ONE engine that has been certified by the EPA for the October deadline. That is the Cummins ISX.

There are a BUNCH of engines submitted for certification. The Cummins ISB (used by our Dodge friends), and the DDC 60 in your example come to mind. There are probably 50 more submitted right now. (On edit: The Cummins ISB was approved by the EPA two days ago.)

I don't know what it will do to street prices. It has cost the manufacturers big bucks to get the engines cleaned up. Look how many changes to the ISB were required! The new G2 Navistar PowerStroke is exempt as well, but is being built to meet the standards.

Another thing to note is that many manufacturers won't make the October deadline for some engines. This is not really a big deal at this time because the sales of "pre EPA" engines have been very strong. The trucking companies have been loading up on the current designs because of their fear of the new designs.

If you have the Polk numbers please post them. I'd be very interested. Or post a link to them.

[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: csimo ]</p>

[dmaxstu]

csimo
Since you are guessing at the numbers of Detroit diesels on the road I would like to point you to the major public transit systems across the country, most use Detroit diesels.Last year the transit system I work for had only one choice for engines in their new acquisition that was Detroit Diesel it was the only CA compliant engine available to bus operators in California.Often people only think of trucks when talking big engines but city buses sure use a lot of them. Stu

PS I personally don't have a clue how many big engines are sold in the country, but just wanted to add another perspective

[csimo]

dmaxstu,

You're right I'm guessing about the numbers. They claimed the Series 60 to be "the number one selling engine in North America".

If you take the statement as quoted we know that it can't be true. GM and Ford both probably had one or two gasoline engine lines that sold more engines last year than DDC made in the last 10 years (perhaps ever?).

If we take it to mean diesel engines only then it still isn't true. I'm sure GM sold more Duramax engines, and Ford sold more PowerStroke engines last year than DDC did in many years. Not to mention Dodge and VW. Worldwide VW is rapidly becoming the largest diesel engine manufacturer (40% of their worldwide production have diesel TDI engines).

My only question is if we narrow this down to engines for Class 8 and larger, would DDC be number one? Beyond that we need to know if they mean in $$$$ or units sold. "Best selling" usually refers to units sold.

I know the statement they made is false. If we then begin to interpret what they may have really meant then we come to the third scenario above. I have no numbers to back it up at all, but my gut tells me that Cummins outsold DDC, but I really don't know.

The other thing to consider is that DDC is calling about 20 different engines as Series 60 engines. Perhaps all those engines together outsold the more defined Cummins line (ISB, ISC, etc.)?

No arguments from me... I'd just really like to know.

[csimo]

Here's some interesting claims... you tell me which one is the truth (cause I don't know!).

From VW http://www.lister-petter.com/lpi/engines/vw_content.htm

"Volkswagen AG, Germany. The largest diesel engine manufacturer in the world (units) with some 11 manufacturing plants at different global sites. VW produces 33,000 engines daily in one engine plant alone."

From Hyundai http://www.dieselpowerplant.com/hdpp.htm

"The Engine & Machinery Division (EMD) of HHI (Hyundai Heavy Industries) is the world's largest diesel engine manufacturer with an annual production capacity of 3.7 million kW for marine and stationary purposes."

From Peugeot (via NGK) http://www.ngk.co.uk/news/11092001a.htm

" Peugeot is the world's largest diesel engine manufacturer"...

From Caterpillar http://www.caterpillar.com/products/engines_n_power_systems/engines_n_power_systems.html

"Caterpillar is the world's largest manufacturer of medium speed engines, as well as one of the world's largest manufacturers of high speed diesel engines"

From Cummins http://www.cummins.com/na/pages/en/products/bus/ratingsalternativefuel.cfm

"You probably already know that Cummins, Inc. is the world's largest producer of commercial diesel engines over 50 hp."

From Isuzu http://www.isuzu.co.jp/world/ldem/worldclass_m.htm

"Isuzu is now ranked among the world's largest diesel engine manufacturers along with Peugeot-Citroen Group and Volkswagen."

They can't all be the largest in the world can they?

[thechevyhdman]

Every diesel engine company that I know of is or will be compliant to new 2002 epa rules. except Cat which is still in the final tweaking process of there Acert engines. Read an article in Owner Operator breaking down how each EGR engine works it was in last months issue. Cummins was the first and maybe the best as the EGR gets cooled through a radiator yup a radiator, questions were raised about raising the Coolant temp but was said no higher than before. Let me see DD, Volvo, Cummins, are all compliant but I forget what Cat said about how they were going to meet the deadline, They were a few months back willing to take it in the butt for the $5,000 fine placed on each non compliant engine sold after Oct 2002. They did say that they will be making engines so I have no clue on what they are going to do for now, I thought the first release date for ACERT engines was Jan 2003? Dont have the time to check out the Cat link above... It will obviously be more correct than I

[Burner]

We had a salesman yapp'n about his "new" Trackhoe. We were into the price and had a 5k conflict. He said that he could not go any lower due to the new "Teir II" engine it had in it. I think that our prices will be going up, up, up :mad: on any diesel powered machines. Extra price & extra parts generally equall more worry and more problems... not to mention increased expencess :( Remember when we had "choked" gasers and the "old" engines were so much better? I think that our trucks will be worth more as this "emmisssion craze" comes in.

- Just my .02 tongue.gif