Allison vs manual

[tanker]

I just returned from a Kenworth factory tour, and we had presentations from various suppliers. ie: Cummins, Cat, Allison, Eaton Fuller etc.
Allison presented a film on automatic vs manual. They had two 18 wheelers both grossed out at 80,000lbs. One was a Mack w/427hp. and a 10spd. The other an International w/330hp. and an Allison. ( I did not get any information on engine torque)Both were on a test track that involved hills, traffic lights, curves etc. They both started out at a green light. The Allison pulled away from the Mack and the Mack never caught up with the International, through the complete course. I was amazed at this film, and having driven a various aray of trucks in my life, I would have thought that the Mack would have done a lot better than it did. I guess what I'm saying is I'll go with the Allison, for comfort and pulling. Seeing is believing, and I'm sure Allison did some favor's to their International. smile.gif Just my 2 cents worth. ;)

[Tractor]

TANKER
With a GM pickup there is no other option. I talked to the GM shop foreman at Sheridan Motor the other day Tom. His opinion has not changed at all. He does not think to much of the ZF6. Their duribility, the way they shift, he just says a huge outfit like GM can do better. On the other hand you have chosen the best auto in a pickup. No other auto can match a alliason in a pickup. But Tom a 427 out run by a 330 horse semi. Some where the computer was set one way or the other to make that happen. We have trucks at work and the companies are able to set them to do what they please. We did have some autos a while back and in equal sized engines they pulled about the same. But that was before the computer was put under the hood. Now we have manuals 10 and 13 speeds. Cats and Cummins with a few Mercedes begining to show up and the computer tells it what to do. Fuel flow, rpm in each and every gear, idle speed ETC. I value your trucking experience Tom. If I lived where there were millions of people, and heavy traffic every day I would most likely have a GMC auto. Just like you.ENJOY!!!!!!!!!
TRACTOR

[lookin2buy]

What does all this torque and H.P. do to the Allison, that is only rated at 545lb/ft torque and 375 H.P.? :confused:

Then with that said what does all this power do to the Allison for the people who want to add "MORE POWER"?

[ 10-19-2004, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: lookin2buy ]

[Tractor]

Lookin2buy
The drivetrain I feel can handle more then what it is rated at. By buddy has a edge attitude on his duramax, and it has way-way more power then the numbers you stated. He has had no trouble with the drivetrain, injectors or anything. Just wore out his Goodyears after 53,000 mile on his 2002.
TRACTOR

[lookin2buy]

"The 1000 Series is designed to overdeliver and rated at 545 lb.-ft. gross torque and 375 gross horsepower (1000 Series-equipped Silverado and Sierra 2500HD and 3500 models are actually capable of 300 horsepower and 520 lb.-ft. of torque)"
(www.duramaxdiesel.com)

[ 10-19-2004, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: lookin2buy ]

[01max]

just my 2 cents worth i have a 6 speed manual it has been dyno'd at 403 horse. and 892 torque to the rear wheels. i have 55k on it. truck has been chipped for about 35k the only problem i have had is the flywheel that is a common problem. i havn't been beat up any hills loaded or empty. when i pull a trailer i only run about 635torque. I live outside of the city so the shifting ain't no problem.

[mdrag]

lookin2buy,

The HP/torque numbers that you refer to are for the 1000 Series Allison transmissions. Allison offers a full range of commericial transmissions that can handle more power. Choose the PRODUCT LINK ON THE ALLISON WEBSITE (http://www.allisontransmission.com/) for more information.

Just over 1 month ago, Mav was passing through Lawton OK on his way to make a delivery in TX. Mav gave me a call, and we arranged to get together. Mav was driving a Freightliner, and IIRC, it had a 10 speed Allison. He took me for a spin and I was very impressed with the tranny's performance. This was my first time in an 18 wheeler, and the air ride cab and seats made for a comfy ride.

Now if I could only figure out how to get those seats into my truck.... ;) :D

[quadrunner500]

The ZF-6 is a great transmission, the most reliable part of the whole truck. It's quiet, shifts smoothly with short throws. Ford uses it as well.

The problem is that GM hasn't learned how to build a clutch/flywheel combo.

[Lawnboy]

What Tanker is getting at is that the Allison was faster doing the same work with a considerably LESSER powered engine.

12 Liter "427" Mack (728 ci)
427hp@1800rpm
1560lb/ft@1200rpm
10sp Manual Transmission

-vs-

9.3 Liter International HT570 (570 ci)
330hp@1500rpm
1150lb/ft@1200rpm
7sp Allison HD4070 series


Both pulling equal loads.

As for how GM is allowing 605lb/ft to go through a transmission rated for 520lb/ft, I don't know. Maybe Allison lists what can be handled in all gear ranges, while GM detunes the Dmax in 1st and 5th gears.

[lookin2buy]

I think lawnboy summed what i was trying to say up perfectly...


As for how GM is allowing 605lb/ft to go through a transmission rated for 520lb/ft, I don't know. Maybe Allison lists what can be handled in all gear ranges, while GM detunes the Dmax in 1st and 5th gears.
I guess that's all i'm really concerned about is when i buy my truck in the spring..... what modifications do i want to do to it, other than exhaust and bigger air filter and adding another fuel filter.

[More Power]

Allison has uprated the 1000 series auto with both hard-part and software changes to evolve with the Duramax power increases.

As was mentioned above, the ZF is also used in the new Ford Superduty trucks. Also, An updated flywheel was released in July 2004 that was designed to increase life, improve friction control and reduce transmission input shaft wear.

BTW - my brother-in-law just recently bought a new '05 LLY/Allison Chevy. His prior three trucks were Dodge/Cummins, his last truck a 2003 HO Cummins/6-speed. He's enjoying the automatic.

MP

[lookin2buy]

MP-

The numbers i got were from "The Diesel Page" book and from www.duramax.com (http://www.duramax.com)

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what years are the numbers you stated in the book for, and what are the new numbers, and what years do they apply?

Hope ya'll can make since out of that!

And also....

What are the max limits of the Allison?? Has anyone ever ran it till it blew up or anything like that, and able to take readings... just curious. tongue.gif

[ALSAIL]

Does anyone know what the input torque rating for the ZF 6-speed is? ZF calls it the S6-650 indicating they have rated it for 650 Newton-Meters torque. (The ratings on their website are all in Metric units) This is only about 485 ft-lbs. Something doesn't seem right. How have they been standing up in service?

[More Power]

Lookin:
The original Allison article published here was written some time ago, before the appearance of the LLY. I had communicated with Allison sometime in mid 2003 about the upcoming LLY. I was told that changes (hard parts & programming) were being introduced that maintained the comfortable power/torque margin.

Al:
The 650 was rated for a time at a published 600 lb-ft of input torque. I suspect that figure is being revised, as a result of four years of field service (probably in an upward direction), but I have no current info. ZF was consulted during the preparation of our recent article about their trans. Input torque came up during discussions, but that new figure was (as of a couple weeks ago) yet to be released.

MP

[lookin2buy]

MP-

So what you are saying is that the Allison can handle about anything out there on the aftermarket for the Duramax?

[More Power]

Lookin:

No.... The Allison was upgraded for the LLY to maintain the power/torque safety margin it originally had with the LB7. It's all about longterm durability.

With aftermarket power adders.... A typical Allison can handle about an additional 90-100 horsepower and 200 or thereabouts more torque before slipping. However, frequently operating at or just below the limit could have some cumulative effect on longterm durability.

BTW - I found the torque limit for the Duramax Hot-Rod (http://www.thedieselpage.com/features/project2-16.htm)'s Allison while practicing launch techniques.

MP

[ 10-21-2004, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: More Power ]

[lookin2buy]

MP-

Thanks for everything that you have done for me. I really appriciate your patience, and understanding through-out this topic. I'm just curious, and new to the diesel technology, and new to GM's Duramax. I have read a lot of great reviews and statistics about the Duramax, and just want the best vehicle.

Thanks again!

[MaxACL]

MDRAG,

I'm in Lawton for the week. Would you give me a call on the cell Sunday or Monday?

Mike Langford (Max ACL)
214 448-3527