Bad news

[TLA]

Well, long post, bad news. Last Thursday, was on my way to Las Cruces, NM with 6 horses and all the junk it takes to go to a show. Temp was in the 40's with on and off rain, and about a 15 mph tail wind. About 50 miles out of Cruces, the engine started to sound like a Cummins, but with a bit of boost, it would get somewhat quieter. It then got a bit worse and started to lose power. I switched tanks, and checked to see that the high idle switch had not been tripped (it hadn't). Then pulling the next hill, we really lost power and I looked over at the temp, and it was going up. A friend was driving, and I said that we better get to the side of the raod. We barely got it off the road before the engine quit entirely. As we stopped, the temp went off scale and all the warnings went on. Once we stopped, it ****d coolant all over the road.
At that point, I though "What the he** do I do now." OnStar to the rescue. They handled every thing for the towing, and I caught a friend at home (he hauls a lot of horses for us), an unhooked truck, and the time to come get us and take truck and trailer to the show grounds. Then he came back on Sunday and took us all home. He had a brand new Dodge Heavy Duty - they did a good job with that one, but the indignity.
The truck now sits at the dealer in Cruces, waiting for someone to get a look at it. After it cooled down and we put water in it, I managed ti get it to start - lots of noise and smoke, and no power through the trans. Sounds serious and expensive. I am not in any way un-happy with the truck (yet), and will keep everyone posted.

[Rebel_Horseman]

Boy I know that feeling TLA. There's not a worse feeling in the world than being stuck on the side of the interstate with horses in the trailer and big rigs rocking your truck as they go by. It's even worse when you can't get your truck to do squat. Good luck.

Reb [><]

[sonofagun]

TLA,

Sorry to hear about the problem. It always happens at the worst of times. Good to have OnStar and better to have good friends.

Keep us posted and good luck,

Bob

[TLA]

Ho hum. another weekend at the office - galloped 5 horses, jump schooled 6. Hardly thought about my truck at all.
Thought I would bring things up to speed, even though there is a dearth of information to report.On Tuesday, I found out that I had one dead cylinder. On Wednesday, I was told that, in light of my guages, the factory had asked if I would pay to remove the engine and tear down. If it is warranty, I will not pay anything. I agreed (on reflection, not sure that was smart), and that was the last word that I had.
On Friday evening, I e-mailed Chevrolet Customer Care about the problem - 2 responses over the weekend from them, but no information. So, that is where things stand. Wish me luck - we have 5 lawyers who have horses with us - hope I don't need any of them.

[mackin]

TLA

I'm reading between the lines here.... Your dealer said that because of gauges, possible no warranty coverage??

MAC :confused:

[Devin Tornow]

When you say you had "one dead cylinder", who said this and why did they say this? Do you know what cylinder # it is?

Do you know if you have any water in the oil (turns milky white) or out the exhaust pipe?

When you say they are questioning your gauges, what does that mean (just high temps, or do you have add on gauges)?

Your truck sounds like it is still under warranty so I would not offer to pay for anything. You give them an excuse to skip covering you.

I have a question running on the forum "Has your Duramax been replaced or had a catastrophic failure?" I believe that you have one so try to keep me posted.

[ 03-02-2003: Message edited by: Devin Tornow ]</p>

[hapaschold]

TLA&lt;
how many miles on your truck ?
sorry to hear of problems, mine wouldnt start last week , but was only starter,

[TLA]

I believe the dead cyl is #1. I have between 22k and 23k on the truck. It works hard, btu is maintained accordingly. I don't know about H2O in the oil, or much else for that matter. The truck is at a dealer 300 miles away.
I have EGT and Boost - I believe, based on temps I recorded on my first long trip with stock exhaust (1000 degrees post turbo, pulling a 6 mile climb out of Camp Verde, AZ on my way to Phoenix), that for my type of service it is the #1 gauge. Boost is interesting, but EGT is essential and is mounted on the column and boost in the overhead.
I infer, from the phone conversation with the dealer, that GM is questioning whether to warranty or not. I will put together a rather long post (or put it on my web site) when this all jells. And no, I was not running any Juice, nor have I for quite some time (have pre V 3.61).

[ 03-03-2003: Message edited by: TLA ]</p>

[sonofagun]

TLA,

How old is your truck? If it is still in the time warranty period I would see if one of those horse owning lawyers you know would be willing to slip your dealer a letter questioning their thought of not covering your problem. It doesn't have to be nasty it's amazing what a letter with a legal heading can do.

Good luck with this obviously frustrating problem.

Bob

[TLA]

Well boys and girls, time for an update on my truck. Last Wednesday, Leo Clear, Service Advisor at Wallace Chevrolet in Las Cruces, NM, called me about my truck. He said that, in light of the fact I had gauges on the truck, GM Powertrain asked if I would pay to remove the engine and tear it down for inspection. I said that I would do that. When I had not have any word by Friday night, I e-mailed Chevrolet Customer Assistance (on the advice of a former GM VP who was sitting in my office at the time). They responded several times over the weekend, as well as on Monday. Finally, yesterday, Wednesday, Leo Clear called me. He said that they had pulled the a head, that there were 2 melted pistons. He had spoken with his area representative, who "could find nothing that matched in the data base", and that the repair under warranty was declined. I told Leo that I needed the truck and that I would have to decide how we would proceed. I told him that I was entitled to a written explanation on what had happened and how it was my responsibility (and yes, he knew that I have previously run the truck with the Juice on it - it was not - I repeat not on the truck at the time, nor had been for a while).
This morning, I received the e-mail from Chevrolet Customer Care :
Dear Mr. Angle,

Thank you for again contacting the Chevrolet Customer Assistance Center.

We sincerely apologize that the your concern with the engine on your 2002 Chevrolet silverado was not a warrantable defect.

We spoke with service manager, Emmitt Booher, who advised us that the engine failure was due to an after market part that was on your vehicle.

The factory warranty on your vehicle covers manufacturer's defects in General Motors' materials or workmanship. Unfortunately it does not cover failures caused by after market items.

We apologize that this is not in accordance with your wishes.

If you wish to pursue this further, your next course of action would be the Better Busines Bureau Hotline. Their number is 1-800-424-9343.

We again, are truly sorry that this is not the answer that you were seeking.

If you should need to contact us in the future, simply reply to this message or call our Chevrolet Customer Assistance Center at 1-800-222-1020. Customer Relationship Managers are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m., Eastern Time.

Again, thank you for contacting Chevrolet.

Sincerely,

Sandei Gannon
Customer Relationship Manager
Chevrolet Customer assistance

So, beware - in spite of protection allowed under Magnuson-Moss, if you have any mods on your truck, be prepared to defend yourself if you have a major failure. It really hinges on the dealer.
Looking at all the posts on this web site where you are running all sorts of mods and there have been no failures, I find it difficult to imagine that there was not something else involved. I spoke with the man who was driving at the time, and he said that the highest EGT was 750 (and my EGT reads 100 degrees high). I think that somehow (unless there was a problem with piston cooling), that we should have seen a jump in EGT.
So - I will keep you informed. I have a fairly long post about my experience in the automotive world and my experience with GM - I will e-mail to MP later today, and if he approves, I will post here for the record. There are 6 Duramax Diesels that I have gotten people to buy - I would be very hard pressed to do so any more (even though this is the best truck I have had, the whole experience has left me with a bad taste and an acid stomach).

[Rebel_Horseman]

I don't understand how they can justify not honoring your warranty because you added gauges to monitor your motor's status. If you didn't have the Juice on teh truck then they can't say that caused it even if they know it has been on there before, they have no definate proof. I'd call the BBB and a lawyer.

Reb [&gt;&lt;]

[Fathead]

TLA
Wow. This is terrible! It's probably to late but you may want to have your home dealership contact gm and support you as a loyal customer. Just this week GM approved an 1800.00 repair on my car even though it was off warranty by ten thousand miles. My impression was the main reason was because the dealer told them that I was a loyal money spending customer and they didn't want to lose my future business.Also one time years ago I did get all the way to the better business people and they got my problem resolved.I felt that GM wanted to take care of me but for some reason had to go this route,How did they Know you ran with juice? I hope things work out in the end and I do not think your being treated fairly Hope your horses can keep you calm. I'm popping a cork just out of sympathy.
Good luck.
FH

[BassinRVer]

Hold your ground TLA what evidence is their that Jiuce did/can/would cause(d) this problem. It is amazing to me with Juice being around for this long that we have not heard of this happening before.

[LanduytG]

Stuck injector burnt the hole right through the piston. Not uncommon in a diesel and since these have some injector issues I would never let up.
Sorry to hear about your troubles, but keep your head up and don't give up.
Greg

[pinehill]

TLA,

I'm not an attorney, but here's what I think I'd do in your circumstances:

I'd request that the injectors on the 2 affected cylinders be provided to a disinterested 3rd party, after being marked by the service personnel. If it could be later determined that the piston problem was caused by bad injectors, you would have a case for warranty coverage.

I'd hire an attorney.

I'd have the person who was travelling with you sign an affidavit at your attorney's office to the effect that there was no performance enhancement equipment on the truck at the time the problem occured.

I'd have the attorney write GM, challenging their response to your warranty claim.

If you decide to proceed with repairs prior to resolution of the warranty claim, make it clear on the work order that you expect a refund, should the warranty issue be decided in your favor.

AND, afterwards, I'd find a different dealer, since their Service Manager gave you the shaft with GM! :mad:

[ 03-05-2003: Message edited by: pinehill ]

[ 03-05-2003: Message edited by: pinehill ]</p>

[TLA]

Thanks for all your support!!! One of the reasons I love this site. All this has implications for us all, hence my desire to keep everyone op to date with the facts.
I have already spoken with legal counsel, and while he was unfamiliar with Magnuson-Moss, he did say that there might be applicable New Mexico laws as well. I have asked twice for a written expanation of what happened and how any of the after market products on my truck caused it. There has been no response. I believe that the next step is to involve the BBB, and I am going that route.
This dealer is the one nearest to where the truck broke - 300 miles from me. I would not have taken it anywhere but the dealer that I normally use but for the circumstances. They at least have gone to bat for me. I am seriously considering getting the truck brought to them, especially if I have to pay. Also, there is a really good engine shop in Albuquerque which works on a lot of Diesels, and with whom I have no business relationship, who could be an independent 3rd party.
My truck was one of if not the first tested for fuel filter efficiency, and the results would make me wonder about stuck nozzles. I would be interesting to know what the actual incedance has been. Also, could there have been a problem with the oil jets that cool the piston crown, as there was no rise in EGT nor was there anything wierd as in high boost. Also, the time line was so short, I find it difficult to think that it was anything else.
It is blowing about 50mph here, and even the horses are nuts.

[BROKERS]

IF YOU PLAY YOU PAY ! Simple as that.

They have a way to see evidence of plug and play.
They can scan it.Like wise for your odometer,its held in six locations on the trucks. I got wind of it 2 weeks ago at a dealership in Halifax.They check every Duramax trade or service .It does something to the enertia box also.Thats all they would tell me.

[Rebel_Horseman]

OK somebody answer this then. Brokers made a point that a dealer can tell if you've Juiced the truck. Does anyone know how they can tell? Does the Juice set a code in the truck's computer that says hey this guy (or gal) has added a chip to this truck? Since I'm adding the Juice to my truck, in case I ever have a problem with it such as the trannie or differential going north, can I just remove the Jiuce and not have to worry about anything?

Reb [&gt;&lt;]

[chuntag95]

TLA, maybe your should take your fuel cleanliness data and go after GM for selling you an inferior filter system that killed your injectors, which in turn caused you pistons to melt. You probably have a much better change of "proving" that than they do. I can't see how gauges makes you the bad guy. It shows you are trying to take care of your vehicle by being informed about key parameters. Show good service, etc. Can't see a jury not backing you up. Hang in there.

[Jimmy O]

TLA,

A good diesel shop for injector analysis is not a good idea. It makes a vast amount of common sense but, in a court of law in a he said she said argument qualifications are king. I have experience with this, as I have worked for a major producer of automotive parts (aftermarket & OEM). In this case the plaintiff ushered in ten local techs with many years of experience and ASE certifications. My former employer had just one expert testify. This person was not only ASE certified but, was engineer and held several patents. The case was over right after this guy testified and the judge did not rule in the plaintiff favor. You should seek analysis from the manufacture of the fuel injector. I think this part is supplied by Bosh. I would seek analysis from Bosh. Now if it is the oil squirting on the bottom of the piston that led to this problem your back to playing hard ball with the dealer and GM. Good luck.

[maxedbowtie]

Just a dumb observation here...

I am a finance person who is well trained in the theory of risk vs. reward.

We are all aware the modifying your vehicle to any degree runs the risk of voiding your warranty (it plainly says this). You are taking a risk... and if you modify you are justifying that the reward you are getting will be worth the gains and potential consequences.

I don't mean to be an a**, but GM or any manufacturer of anything can't guarantee their product outside the limits they have placed on their product. They have calculated the risk themselves of what their products can do and thus charge you for an estimated average 'warranty' cost in the price of the vehicle. If the end consumer changes or alters the characteristics of the product they are placing more risk on the manufacturer. Maybe GM should offer different warranty plans for different risks? If you want to race and add 1,000 hp to your vehicle then here is the added warranty price... I don't think there would be any takers... I also don't believe you will find anyone to interpret MM to say they should cover that either.

You will also notice that Edge or any other product only guarantees their product, not that it won't harm what you are adding it to. They will gladly replace their $800 box, but not your $40k truck if their box blows it up.

If you want to play this risk and do it in a way to be stealth or deceive to still qualify for the warranty then I would suggest not revealing your modifications. If someone drives their new Vette in with slicks bolted on and a 10" tach, some might get a little skeptical of what you are doing. This even goes down as far as putting egt and boost gauges and then admiting you have 'juiced' your truck.

Quite frankly, the dealer doesn't care! They get paid for warranty work quite well. What they DO care about is if they replace an engine without proper approval THEY will eat it rather than GM. This in itself makes them a little weary.

I hope you can prove that something in the engine failed that can't be tied to anything, but just remember as in anything they are calculating that the risk of saying no to you and the cost of fighting you with internal lawyers will be cheaper than a new engine and labor, knowing you will have to pay to tear down the engine to prove it (as there are visible modifications and admitted use of performance mods in the past) and hire a lawyer to battle them.

I honestly hope it works in your favor! Don't back down and talk to the dealer you bought it from. They are the ones that will go to bat for you more than anyone. They got your profit, not the dealer the truck is at. That is probably your only chance to get to them to back down and cave in without blowing thousands on lawyer bills and still have a broken truck.

[mackin]

What's a enertia box ?? :confused: Sounds kinky......

I agree you Play you "MIGHT" have to pay ...... Problem here is did the aftermarket device cause the melt down?? I don't by it.....

In addition yes I'd imagine the scan tool could pick up some weird data in freeze frames or other wise but what or who makes the distinction between false and actual ?? Anything is possible ,I'm sure it's not a blinking red light,he got the JUICE....

I guess with a pipe and gauges eyebrows will tilt in that direction,deny.....

They have the ultimate burden of proving like wise, fight the early verdict of GUILTY placed on you.....

I still would like to know how a dealer 300 miles from home base new of any engine mod not visible?? Or Everything was based on just gauges??

You didn't bring it up in conversation, did ya??

Or did the dealer you frequent put a note in your file?? ;)

Good Luck TLA,keep us informed......


MAC

On edit : How could they rely on any info stored in the ECM with a failure of this degree?? If this was used a bases of a actual performance box being used in the past and present for a warranty decision.....

[ 03-05-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[Devin Tornow]

Yes this is a common failure mode for Common Rail injectors to hose a cylinder and take out an engine. I do support the injector analysis suggestion strongly. I believe people have more piston failures than everyone really understands.

I am not sure how you are going to proceed from here but If you need to buy a new engine I have identified a few new surplus engines. I am not sure about the years available right now as I am waiting to here back. If you would like to talk call me at 309-578-4386

[Mark A]

If GM can tell if a truck has or had any computer modifications why wouldnt they have brought that to my attention when they replaced my transmission in my 01' truck. It should have set off blinking lights and sirens everywhere since the reflash is not removable and the juice box was just taken off before it went to the dealer. The truck has gauges also and nobody said anything about them besides they were 'cool'.

[GMC-2002-Dmax]

I do know that when a code is set it stores the real time data from the ECM. This happened in my 1997 pick-up.

The truck set an SES and ran like crap. From that SES code the dealer was able to see certain things like TPS,RPM,trans. gear,MPH. I know because the dealer asked me what I was doing when the code set.

He knew that it was in 3rd gear and my foot was to the wood and the truck was going 60+ mph. I was actually passing someone in a passing zone.I asked how he knew and he told me that those things get stored.

I believe that it's ONLY when you set an SES code, although that could have changed. I will ask a personal friend that I know for the real story.

I will update you guys and gals on Friday as I will be seeing this Tech on Friday morning.

GMC ;)

[Bulldogger]

If the dealer can read the change in files from a plug and play module like the juice, would you be safer with a program like the preditor.The preditor can download your stock program then install the new one, but still allows you to switch back and fourth. When you download the higher performance program and reload the stock one have you removed all previous files? Dave

[mackin]

Bulldogger

Once the Plug and Play is removed your truck is in stock configuration.....


MAC

[Tsckey]

TLA

This is really an ugly situation. There is a possibility that the juice caused the meltdown, but by the nature of the problem, probably not. GM is obligated to provide coverage under the warranty unless it is determined that an owner-installed accessory caused the failure. That's simple enough, but what do you do when, as apparently happened here, the dealer just folds his arms across his chest and says "You modified it, you broke it"?

It doesn't appear that the dealer actually made a determination; it merely ASSUMED causation from the fact the truck had been modified. That doesn't meet the dealers duty under the warranty. At the very least you are entitled to a written analysis of the problem including a detailed description of the necessary links in the chain of causation leading to the failure. But you won't get it without an attorney and they cost as much as the engine.

I didn't run outside to see if the manual has any contractual language regarding attorney's fees. Probably not. So, even if you win, you get your truck repaired by the factory/dealer and a large bill from your lawyer. Not a comfortable solution.

By all means, talk to a lawyer experienced in this area of the law there may be cheaper avenues. Also, check with your state's auto repair bureau and consumer services agency. Sometimes they can be very persuasive. Bad faith refusal to honor legitimate warranty claims can lead to badly singed butt hairs if the dealer is not careful.

Good Luck,

TC

[BROKERS]

Boys, GM is supplying the dealers with the reader/scanner as of 02 19/03.So i was told.


The enertia box is best kept secret. In use since 99 on GM trucks .Stores all vehicle dynamics.

[Mike Fultz]

O.K. does anyone see an inertia box on the wiring schematic??

Mike

[hoot]

Could be built right into the ECM (surface mount). In that case, all you see is a block diagram showing the ecm.

[Mike Fultz]

It would be good to confirm what BROKERS was told, maybe one of the forum members with a GM dealer would know??

Mike

[chuntag95]

If the intertia box exists and it does save some data, it can only be for a limited time. To store all of the data a vehicle will see over the first 3 years or 36K would be a huge task and not hidden easily. Storing what happened when a code was set, I buy that. Maybe even the last 20 minutes. They might have just saw gauges and "assumed" to bluff you into the cost of an engine.

[Bulldogger]

Mackn, I realize removal of juice puts the truck back stock, but from my understanding once you remove the juice the so-called inertia box as additional files stored in it from using the juice box.So my original question still stands does a program you upload then download to remove take all its extra files with it? Dave :D

[a64pilot]

If it helps some aircraft flight data recorders work as Chuntag, hope I got the name right, described. I'd also bet my pay check the data is stored in the ECM/PCM and is non-volatile. I don't see as how it could monitor parameters that the truck does not have sensors for I.E. EGT. etc. Some body help me out here, but I think that add on boxes like the juice do not change the parameters in the stock computer (reprogram them) but intercept the data and modify it so that the stock ECM never sees out of range data. Whereas re-programmers like the Predator actually modify the program so that the ECM may record out of range data.
Is this true? or am I smoking dope?

[BROKERS]

I know there is a Blackbox in the trucks but they are only able to record for 5sec prior to impact.Mostly used for air bag deployment.
Correct me if i'm wrong,but i say they are (GM) paying attention and have the resources to extract what they need to know.Personaly when i buy Off-lease units i would not touch one that has been modified.At auction they do about $4-5000 less than a clean virgin unit.As i talk to buyers at auction, they are very concerned with these (Cheese-Box)trucks.

[TLA]

a64 - I defer to you on that. I think that most FDR's in use have a limited ability to store data, are incredibly expensive, and as we have seen in many accident investigations, somewhat unreliable. Perhaps my experience will help us all find out.
In situations like this, no body wins - I loose (time, energy, focus, and yes $$$$) - GM stands to loose 50+ years of loyalty and its attendant Goodwill, as well as future sales and recommendations, and we all loose because any real efforts to find the true cause are obscured by our efforts to protect our positions.

[mackin]

a64pilot

You are not smoking dope ..... Well, while posting that info.... ;)

The Juice does intercept and make changes ,no file is stored or changed as the reprogrammers do....

I'll bet the (e) inertia box is nothing but a hoax....I have no solid proof but sounds to me I may have to make a couple calls tomorrow to dispel the rumor.... ;)

No offense Brokers,Best kept secret :rolleyes: like grandma's spaghetti sauce recipe,give me a break ......Lots of us no people on the inside...You just let the cat out of the bag....Right,"was" best kept now??

Anyone with a Tech II (John) can I'm sure end this prolly before me....

MAC :eek: :D :eek:


TLA

I too would be bitter as not 50 years but 20 years of loyalty here.....

I'd be a Dodge camper right soon if it were to turn out sour if I were in your perdicament.....
:(

[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[dmaxalliTech]

The so called inertia box is probably the DERM, used for airbag systems. the data is accesable for a period of time, but only a few minutes of data. The dealership has NO capability to get data other then that, in talking with other techs here, GM has the ability to go back and inspect data in a situation like this. I plugged in my tech-2 to my truck and played for over an hour and have yet to get any "old" info out of it. I can tell you that when a DTC sets, it takes a snapshot of the information at that time. I was working on a 01 dmax this morning with ses light on, had KN filter and ruined MAF sensor. out of warranty so no issues anyways. but when code set, I could see all data at the time of failure. I mean EVERYTHING. As far as them not covering this engine, thats BS and it really pi$$es me OFF. Technical Assistance just this morning said that 01 and early 02 injectors have softer seats and the internals are not as good as late 02 and later injectors, he went so far as to tell me that if i go into one to replace injector(s), call the district service manager for approval to replace ALL injectors with the new design. It is not uncommon failure for them to stick open.
For whats its worth, If you lived here in West Michigan, you would be getting a new motor, personally installed by yours truly, at no cost to you. Dont give up on this, fight it all the way....

[hoot]

dmaxalliTech,

I get overboost and MAF codes when my truck defuels during moderate highway acceleration. This is with Amsoil air filter or stock air filter. Usually only does it with propane on. No other mods except straight pipe and holy airbox.

I checked and cleaned the MAF but it looked perfectly clean as it was and made no difference.

2001 truck.

Any clue? Had all the latest updates.

[MaxACL]

dmaxalliTech,

I have an '02. How can I tell if my injectors are soft or hard?

Mike

[FisHn2DMax]

Just talked to my Mr.Good Wrench brother in law on this subject.

He's just returned from a GM school on the DuraMax and here's what he told me on the Juice Box/after market chip detection:

01-02's: No way to 100% detect chip/box was installed other than a few data memory strings (used as flags) that can come up different than normal, but not enough to be 100% sure in a legal situation. Gauges are a flag to the techs to look for other aftermarket indications

03's are 100% detectable and verifable! GM is requesting all techs scan all D/A trucks with a new detection tools before begining any major engine or transmission work. EGT, Boost Gauges are considered "Warranty claim flags only", the tech is to report them on the warranty claim paperwork. He did say Guages in and of themselves are not grounds to deny Warranty.

I asked him if he thinks we should be concerned and he stated "If you have an 03, and you have a major failure and it's determined via the new scan tool/computer that you had a chip/box installed at one time, GM will auto deny Warranty. User beware, the burden of proof will then rest on your shoulders!

He too has an 03 with Juice, and he's now very concerned, because even if he removes the juice box, the Box/Chip flag data is already stored in firmware and can not be erased externally ( to his knowledge) for the life of the ECM. Basically, he thinks we're screwed if we have a major failure and an 03! I asked him about the Predator? He's heard the Predator may not be detectable, but he is going to verify this for sure on his own truck, before making any recommendations on the use of the Predators on 03's.

Heads Up...!
;)

[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: FisHn2DMax ]</p>

[More Power]

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act states that the manufacturer is obligated to repair a defect if the aftermarket product did not cause or "contribute to" the failure.

The last I heard, auto makers won 90% of all disputed claims, and the burden of proof is on the vehicle owner. Juries and arbitrators tend to side with the manufacturer when considering cause and effect of an aftermarket part.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised there isn't more support here for taking responsibility for modifying a truck's performance, and stepping up to the plate for any performance related repairs.

MP

[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: More Power ]</p>

[pinehill]

I can't disagree with MP's position, but if TLA truly has not had his box installed for some time, I can't see that the prior use would cause piston melt later. It would seem to be an injector problem, IMO. Also, if it were a box-induced problem, I would expect to see damage, to some extent, on ALL pistons.

[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: pinehill ]</p>

[dmaxalliTech]

HOOT, there is an update for overboost code, but if you have all latest, your covered, this truck i mentioned above did have overboost code. I asked the guy at TAC about cleaning MAF, he said it is not cleanable and may look ok, this one looks ok, but the data is incorrect on the scanner, Dont know if you have access to tech-2 but if you do, looking for 42-45 grams per second at idle and 430-480 grams per second at WOT. (maf sensor) this one i have is only at 270 at WOT... Dont have more info than that at this point, but I will post any more if i get it Hoot.

[BROKERS]

Well, alot of nay sayers.I talked to the same guys this afternoon and they told me they can see everything on their new scan tool.But they would neither confirm or deny the 01-02 vs 03. They told me that they are not using a Tech 2.They said i'll probably be able to buy one in 60 days.
Leased vehicle returns are also gona go through inspections. They are also checking odometer fraud along with warranty fraud.

I'll tell ya, GM is not taking this lightly.Ive been in this business for some time and Gm never looses.The dealers are screaming to get in the know on all of this and GM is answering back with new equipment.

Later Tom L.

[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: BROKERS ]</p>

[chuntag95]

MP, I agree with you and Pinehill. You should take responsibility if what you did caused it to go from together to apart. In this instance, I don't see how that can be the case. I was looking at the Pred or Juice for the economy, not what happens at WOT. Won't hurt to have that as well, but not my main purpose. :D This just seems to be an instance where GM is not living up to their end. They have presumed guilt and don't want to even consider it's their problem. It all seems to come down to the dealer and not the facts of the situation. :(

[maxedbowtie]

I'm not a lawyer and maybe I'm totally wrong on this...

As far as I can tell and from what I have read the M-M Act says that a manufacturer (whether it be GM or the printer on your computer) can't require that parts needed for maintenance, repair, etc. be a specific brand. In other words a tie-in sale. It can be an aftermarket part that meets specifications. In other words you can put a different brand of oil (than say GM brand) in the engine as long as it meets the specifications (if this is what the warranty presents). Nowhere (that I can find) does the act say that you can modify the product beyond what the manufacturer guarantees in the warranty. You are changing the aspects of the product they placed the warranty on in the first place, plain and simple... Adding a performance modification isn't a necessary component or one to replace or repair on the truck. You put it there. The use of it changes the dynamics of what the manufacturer wanted and said they would warranty. Why would there be a concern of voiding the warranty in the first place and pulling the boxes etc. if there wasn't a concern of this qualifying for warranty disqualification? Otherwise where would it stop? If I saw off my rifle and the barrel plugs and blows up in my face should the manufacturer warranty that???

There is a point where we have to step up to the plate and be responsible for our own actions. If you want more HP, then by all means go for it, but don't expect GM or any other manufacture to hold your hand if your mods go sour. They plainly say any mod can void the warranty. It only ups the price on every other vehicle sold to make up for it. It doesn't matter if it was on mile 5-1,000 or 5-36,000. If you give them the excuse they will use it as you were prewarned.

I'm certainly not for big company's strong arming a legitimate case, but I also don't think it fair in any case to force the mass to pay up, so to speak, for a small portion's actions.

Check out the US Code on the topic: www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/ch50.html#PC50

[RATDOC]

Aren't the computer systems almost identical between the '01/'02's and the '03's???
How would a tech be able to verify any info about the Juice or something that plugs inline IF these
mods are designed to be "invisible" to the computer???
If these weren't invisable, everyone would be starring at a "check engine" light..........
Any ideas/ comments???
Tom

[Brucec]

Well sorry for your problems I wish you all the best, I know if I read where GM is refusing to honer their warranty I sure will not buy another GM.

However I have not touched my truck at all, as it was when I picked it up. I have only been thinking about adding the second fuel filter but I bet they would VOID your warranty for adding this also think I will wait till after I have 100,000 miles on it and out of engine warranty.

Keey your head up hang in there best of luck.

[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: Brucec ]

[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: Brucec ]</p>

[BROKERS]

Ratdoc,

I dont know how it works and i dont care as long as they give me an indecation that the unit i'm buying has not been plugged and played.I just saw them doing the scan on a truck that i bought wholesale off a dealer, thats how i came across it.The truck had been a volentary lease return.That is what i do for a living.I buy Canadian off-lease and broker them wholesale into the US. Buying used Duramaxes is hard and i dont want any junk (CHEESE-BOXES).Personaly i'm glad that they can do it.But i'm not trying to pick an argument either.
I don't care what other people do with thier trucks as long as it does'nt reflect on me.

I was just passing along what i saw.

[hoot]

BROKER,

How do they detect propane ? tongue.gif

BTW, did that PSD you sold .....

(01 PSD/A F-550(SOLD AT 569,320mi))

do all them miles on one tranny? I know the Dmax didn't

[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>

[BROKERS]

Hoot , you always have to put a monkey-wrench in it! LOL!
I worry that i sell a truck to a dealer and he scans it and calls me and wants his money back.
I could get caught with a + -$4000 upsidown deal!
Dealers are discounting that much behind book for a hot-rod diesel.

Hoot, the 01PSD was 3 rebuilds.The Allisons has only the one drastic failure on the 01D/A.The old Dodges used to go 80-90,000mi between rebuilds.

[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: BROKERS ]</p>

[Jimmy O]

If the statements about detecting boxes and reflashs are correct, then would the answer be to have two ecms one OEM and a second reflashed or for use with a box? I know PPE sells the entire ecm. Would GM be able to detect an ecm exchange. If were to hot rod my truck this is the way I think I would go but, each to his owen. Iam not looking to start a which box/chip/reflash is better arguement. Once again TLA --Good Luck and lean hard on the dealership that sold you the truck.

[hoot]

BROKER,

Hey I don't blame you. Business is business. Nobody wants a used vehicle that was beat to death.

I also took note that you don't do anything to your trucks. I guess when you haul for a living, you can't afford to play with reliability.

Looks like the Allison is one heck of a tranny.

TLA,

Remain polite but be persistant.

[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>

[BROKERS]

Hoot we do! I open the exhaust.Install fuel filters.Switch to 19.5 Ricksons.Rear axel Sun pumps with bed coolers and electic fans.Rear air bags.Hid Hella Lighting.Airbag goosenecks.
We used to do alot more,but that was when the trucks had no power.The do just fine right now.

Hey somebody gave me $8500 for my 01D/A with almost a 1/2 million on it.I cant leave them in to bad of a shape?
Hoot you dont see Luke S touching his rigs.Ask him what he would pay fo a used hot-rod diesel!

[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: BROKERS ]</p>

[hoot]

Hmmmmm.

Install fuel filters eh?

How come you're not in on all the filter talk lately? What do you use?

[MadDuraMax]

I think we need to look at both sides of this issue. After working in manufacturing for over 20 years, I can tell you that ALL companies look real hard at waranttee claims when financial times get tough. I had the experience of doing this work for a major trailer manufacturer some years ago. Adding sensors and such for verifying waranttee claims is nothing new. For instance we would add thermal "biskets" to the inside of hot asphalt tanks to determine the real tempuratures they would be operated at. Some very major haulers would be PO'd big time when I would deny waranttee claims because of this "hidden" tactic.

On the other hand I was simply amazed at what some people would do to the trailers not thinking how it could effect the performance! This is serious stuff for a large manufacturer, there are more people than you would ever guess who just try to make a quick buck off of them.

Unfortunately this catches people like us in the middle. The "mods" TLA made or even the Juice may have had nothing to do with the failure, but if it throws a "hidden" code somewhere ... buyer beware. Now we have to try to spend enough to keep up with the GM "big money" lawyers or just roll over.

The technology has been around for a long time to do all of this and may or may not be "reprogrammable" via any of the powerloaders on the market. Even the "inertia sensor" is widely used to validate freight and shipping damage claims! All of this can be easily printed onto an IC chip and never show up on a schematic.

Sorry for the long post,

Mark

[TraceF]

I have been away for a while and just read this entire thread. Has anyone called Edge to get their take on the '03 ECM memory comments?

Also, if you had a second ECM and had a catastrophic failure wouldn't they know when it was "blank" after you plugged it in right outside their driveway?

[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>

[svpdiesel]

I just spoke with the parts manager at the local GMC dealer, and he says he has not (yet) heard of any new scanners coming down the pike. They have the tech-II and that's it. He did say, that the service guys will be the last to hear about it, so it may be true... I guess we will have to wait and see if anyone can confirm from within GM.
Damn, I was just about to juice on my 03. Think I'll wait a minute.

[BigLakeDMAX]

I don't know if this would apply here, but I used to build repairables for personal use and family a few years ago. GM would void any remaining warranty on vehicles considered "totalled out." So, even though the vehicle could have had a rear end hit and the engine was unaffected, the entire drivetrain warranty was voided. So, the option was to sue GM for the value of that portion of the warranty actually voided based on the percentage of mileage remaining on the factory warranty when it was voided. GM would not honor a claim automatically, but in most states the value would fall within conciliation court limits. So, new owners can file against GM, obtain a judgment, and GM pays. I would expect them to be as slow doing so as their response to other claims. I have not done this personally, but know of people who have. Just a tactic of last resort that may work. Anyone else have any knowledge of or experience in this area?

[mackin]

To me if what is written about a (e) inertia box is true it's disturbing news..Sorry Brokers,looks like you are right,hopefully only on 03's......Not because I can be responsible for my actions, I know the risks, it puts a catch all situation and an excuse in the hands of an incapable dealer...As we know they exist...We have seen the horror stories.....

The assumption right from the get go is if I have gauges, as what is written here, I can be flagged as an outlaw....Perhaps no warranty service at all...Could happen.....

GM makes the rules but enforces NO uniformity at their agents the dealers as they are independently owned and operated....It was reported here the a Juice Box was a dealer install add-on.....I believe it too,wait till the info trickles down to them.....

Guess I wait and see how my dealer reacts on my upcoming visit before my 36k is kaput.....

Wait till they see my Silver faced Escalade cluster with hardly any miles on it......Guess I'll be labeled a Felon too !!!!!!!! A tech told me only the hours remain on a reset.....Guess I'll have to have them reset my actual mileage...HUH ?? I wasn't trying to get away with anything,but I'm sure I'll get the Tamper FLAG too......


MAC :( :eek: :(

[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[Kennedy]

My take on this subject in plain sight for all to read:

Warranty Issues:
Most modifications shown here should not cause warranty concerns but remember: "Out of sight = Out of mind!" Any of the modules/programs listed here can be removed and there is really no way of detecting their use by the dealer. Now as for warranty issues, YES the dealer can refuse warranty due to the use of ANY module. There is the Magnusson-Moss warranty act that says the dealer/mfr must prove that the aftermarket device caused the failure directly, BUT the long and short of it is this: THEY hold all the cards, and in most cases, what they say goes. It all depends how much time/money you have to throw into a court case IF the need should arise! Again, "Out of site = Out of mind..." Try to keep on the good side of your dealer, and HOPE he/she is open minded!


In this case, what they don't know won't hurt them...

[ChevysRus]

I can't say what is being recorded or not on the trucks, but I can tell you the technology exist and is in use everyday for last several years.

I work with a fleet of 42,000 refrigerated containers and trailers, each of them has a datacorder that can record up to 32 parameters. We use it to verify claims. We can currently look back at 2 years of data, temps on any given date and time, variance between setpoint and actual temp, how long the variance lasted, return air temp compared to supply air temp, power on and off time and date, compressor run time, alarm codes, action taken by mechanics doing repairs, tampering and even part replacement (you would be surprised when we tell a customer when the part was broken/stolen/removed based on when it stopped sending data). Even prior to a part failure we get alarm warnings of the failure or that the part is opertaing outside perameters set for it.

The recorder takes a snapshot in time, you can set it to take the snapshot every 15 minutes, 30, 60 or at 120 minute intervals. The data is downloadable to a laptop computer, reader (scantool) or by sattilite transmission (great to check units moving in-transit in the middle of the Pacific Ocean). So I know that the technology is there to do the same on the trucks.

Our datacorders come with Microprocessor, program memory, data memory, internal battery backed real time clock, six thermister inputs, 2 communication ports (to read from the main computer and to send receive data) and a backup power supply (battery pack) for when power is disrupted.

This sucker is probably bigger than what is in the trucks and measures about 6" x 9" and 1' wide.

The bigger issue of GM putting in the recorder boxes is our exposure to lawsuits in the event of an accident, download the data and yes you were travelling at 82 MPH at time of impact!

I suspect GM has only captured enough data to defend themselves in warranty claim cases same as we do when a load of shrimp spoils ($125K+ in value). I don't know how elaborate their systems are, but future potential is unlimited. All they need to do is decide what they want to look at and set up the sensor and recording capability. A lot of data is moved through the computer anyway and all they have to do is trap it and record it periodically to get an actual or "average' picture of what is going on. It is Big Brother and the On Star is part of it, you better believe it, who knows what is being uploaded and downloaded as you cruise around.

Anyway, my point is don't doubt the technology, it does exist and just needs someone willing to use it and of course buy it even if unknowingly.

I yearn for the day when we buy our vehicles and they have to disclose what they can capture and not capture, then you have the choice of getting up and walking out rather than have your privacy further eroded.

On the other hand if I or my family gets broadside by some jerk doing 82 MPH in a 35 MPH zone, I sure would like to be able to prove it!

Have a great day and don't be looking over your shoulder, they are there, but you can't see them!

LOL ha ha ha :D

[TLA]

To answer a few questions - prior to this fiasco, my truck was only to a dealer 1 time - for the computer reflash to add OD lockout and correct for false codes. The dealer I use for my Chevrolets is 30 miles from me, has always done a super job on service for me, and is even trying to help me out on this matter, but I do my own maintanance. For one thing, it is a disconnect from running the farm. For another, I do progressive maintanance, where it is always being looked at. How did the dealer find out that I had the juice? I guess when they saw the gauges, they went through the truck and found a brochure in the cab. I was asked about it, I was honest and I told them that I had used it, but that it had been off for some time. In any case, I believe mackin is right - there is a burden of proof on both the dealer and GM to provide some reasonable proof that after market equipment is responsible for the failure (at least as I read that part of Magnuson-Moss). So far, I have recieved no explanation of how anything on the truck was the cause, and I have asked twice. Something went real wrong very quickly, and it never showed up on any gauges, the annunciator panel, or the SES.
If you play, you got to pay - I couldn't agree more. I didn't buy the juice to turn my truck into a drag racer - done that (Road Racing, actually). Rather, I bought it to fix some drivability issues that I encountered in my operations. I never ran it in 4 after the day I got it when I went a mile up the road and back. If I ran it, I used mostly level 1 and sometimes level 2. As I haul horses, I cannot forsake reliability - period. When I broke, I had 6 horses who were book valued at $250,000, but who, by virtue of training and experience are priceless. Four we bred and raised right here. A break down on the road with horses can be life threatening for them - not merely an inconvenience.
For over 50 years my family and I have been loyal Chevrolet buyers - I own 4 Chevy trucks right now. I'll bet that since 1968, when I bought my first new Chevy, I haven't had 10 warranty claims total on all my vehicles, and most have been modified in some way to suit the conditions where I operate. As I have said, I believe there is a burden of proof that the dealer has failed to meet - he cannot just say I had after market equipment and let it go at that. If I can be shown proof that one of the after market items on the truck, or my actions, were the cause, then I respect that I will have to step up to the plate and will do so. I once changed the diff lube on our Suburban (8k miles). All the lube leaked out the cover (they had no gasket, and I used the wrong sealant), and trashed the rear end. I never even considered it was anyone's fault but mine, and ponied up $2000+ for repairs. I understand my responsibilities and obligations.
So, here is the situation:
My truck has 2 melted pistons. No mention has been made of any damage to others.
The driving conditions at the time were ideal.
No indicators showed any sign of problems.
At one time I had used a power modifier. It was not on at the time of failure nor had been for some time.
There are known issues with the fuel filtration (if GM admits it or not).
We have now been presented with known issues with fuel injectors (mine was built in early October of '01).
What caused the failure? I know that I can never say for sure (not sure I could, even if I had the engine). Wouldn't it be nice to know? It could affect everyone of you.
Finally, we get to the issue of damage control. When I worked on Mercedes-Benz automobiles and busses, we felt that it took 30 happy customers to undo the damage caused by one unhappy one, so we went the extra mile to take care of our customers. Now, in the Internet age, multiply that by what - 100 , 1000 , 10,000? Instant results. If it meant eating work or making deals, we did it, knowing full well that it was the best decision the long run. We were always booked 2 to 3 weeks in advance, and I had all the work I could ever handle. When I was a Mercedes-Benz dealer Service Manager, the same philosophy held true, both on customer pay and warranty items. Some things were warrantied just so M-B could get a look at the parts. How much will all this cost GM in the long run? I'll bet many times the cost of a new engine. A friend was grilling me about my truck several weeks ago. He used to drive PSD's (moved up to Freightliner), hence all his students drive PSD's, and a bunch are coming up for replacement. What can I say? To me this white, to someone else it is black, but the reality is that it is a really grey situation. This kind of thing should never need to go to arbitrtion or court nor should people be subjected to having to contemplate it - people need to sit down and work it out. What happened to giving the benefit of the doubt to the consumer?
JK - Regarding M-M, you couldn't have put it any clearer. They hold the cards.

[SoCalDMAX]

I just read this whole thread. Whew!

I agree, we should all take responsibility for our actions. If we did something to mess up our trucks, we should fix it ourselves.

The issue I have is that this problem appears to have been caused by a stuck injector (which is a common problem, as posted by a tech) or lack of oil cooling to the botom of the piston.

I see no possible way the Juice could have caused this problem, period. It intercepts ALL injector pulses and widens or advances ALL of them. All cylinders should have exhibited burned pistons or the same degree of damage. The fact that only a couple of cylinders were affected indicates:

1. Debris got into the injectors and they stuck open. We've seen plenty of pics of rust in injector lines and I'm betting this is from improperly mfr'd or stored lines from the suppliers rusting before they're even installed. This has nothing to do with the Juice.

2. Defective injectors that have too soft of seats. Once again, a defective part that is the mfr's problem. Not the Juice.

3. Failed oil cooling jets to those pistons. This is defective materials or workmanship. Not the Juice.

If a rod had broken and came through the side of the block and the ECM was read and indicated a speed of 90mph with incredible loads on the motor while towing, then I would say, "Yes, you played, and now it's time to pay." But that's not the case here.

Perhaps a metallurgical analysis of the pistons would reveal they were not properly treated prior to installation. i know our trucks were supposed to have gone through a workstation where the radio, alignment, steering wheel and headlight aiming are all checked. I know for a fact mine didn't go through that step. It arrived with the PS headlight pointing at the heavens, pulling slightly and the steering wheel was way off.

I would think the mfr has to exhaust all possible reasonable causes rather than immediately seizing on the easy way out.

Here's another cheezy GM tactic for you. You know those great crate motors GM sells for what seems like a good deal? Well, they're seconds, according to my sources. The engine plant does the air spin test, and if it fails, it goes into a crate instead of a car, and is sold as new. If it passes that test, it's run on a load cell, and if it runs a little low or exhibits any unusual trait, it's put in a crate and sold. Only engines that pass the tests go into the vehicles, which is great. But you plunk down hard earned money for a crate motor, and you might get an engine with ECM, harness, plugs, oil and filter all installed. With no plug in the oil galley (0psi oil press.) or an incorrectly installed bearing, or rings indexed wrong, or any number of defects. You're expecting a perfect motor, and they're betting you won't notice the defect (how many people have access to a dyno?) and they got good money for something they should have scrapped.

Keep your head up TLA. Demand that they prove to you how the Juice could damage only 2 out of 8 cylinders. Their finger pointing is borne out of ignorance. Don't let them get away with this!

Regards, Steve

[ChevysRus]

If it was me, I would go get the truck and tow it back to my regular dealer and let them work it out with GM. You will have to pay the tow, but maybe you can save something in the long run. The idea of them going through your truck without a "warrant" is enough to make you gag!

I think you just happened to end up in one of those bad trip nightmares that goes on forever. The dealer is never going to see you again and knows it, he dosn't care about GM only his own dealership and you can't help him after you leave town. Goodwill is a local condition!

I really would get a U-haul and go get your truck and all the parts and bring it back. Tell the dealer thanks, but no thanks. They probably have the VIN in the computer, but let's say worse case you let the guy fix it and you pay for it, then what, next time it breaks or leaks are you going 300 mile away to have him undo his bad repair?

I am guessing worse case with your local dealer even if you have to pay for it, they are going to give you a break on parts or something to take some of the sting away.

Anyone traveling is in a worse case scenerio if they break down. I know there are several good stories, but there are more bad ones.

I was once in Arizona heading back to SF, I stopped at an Exxon station for gas on I-40, there seemed to be 2-3 broken down RV's parked around. They had a guy there pumping gas, I went to the bathroom, when I came out the guy said he noticed oil dripping under my car, under the rear axle, I thought that was strange, I leaned under and looked and there was the usual "wet" grease you would find on the housing, I said forget it, I will fix it when I get home, the guy asked me how far I was going, I said another 700 miles, he said "boy, you have your family with you and all, it will be dark soon, I sure would not keep going with that leak like that". It made me think for a minute then I realized he was trying to rip me off, when I looked at all the elderly couples standing around with their RV's, I couldn't help but think "he has scared these people to death and is going to rip them all off for unneeded repairs". I told him to forget it, paid for the gas and started to leave, as I was getting in the car I heard him mutter, "that's OK there will be another sucker along in a few minutes" he really said that!

I didn't have time to do anything about it and I have always felt sorry for all those RV owners. When I got home I checked the rear fluid and it was fine, the "grease" was just the normal sweating and stuff that accumulates over time. What a con job!

Anyway, bring that puppie home ASAP and get it into a dealer you can trust, even if you have to pay, at least it should be a fair and reasonable price. I think this other guy is going to rip you a new one and he has already screwed you with GM. I bet he plans to make more off the repair with you than he will get for the same repair from GM warranty if they decided to honor the warranty. Like an HMO thing.

Best of Luck and "EYES OPEN WIDE" Note my long standing signature ending!

[floridadmax]

I they think the juice caused it then they also must prove it. You also might need to prove it didnot. If 2 out of 8 have a problem like that then the other 6 must also show signs too. Now also,where is EDGE? They should step up to the plate & defend their product.after all we all paid good money for their product and would like to think they would like to show there product did not cause this.

[sdaver]

good luck tla.............read the whole post and I agree with socal...whew......good dealer relationships are worth lots.........Is the motor totally toast?.....or fixable? dave

[BROKERS]

Mackin, I know alot of people question me and my rigs,but i'm only here to help and learn.Hoot invited me along time ago and i came over to show what i do.
I'm for real and i do broker about 250 vehicles per month and i do speak to alot of guys in the industy.But i'm no expert tech,i'm a business man.
I don't drive my haulers,i do go to auctions and visit dealers(customers). So when i saw this item doing read outs of the truck,it got my mind spinning.But i did not want to cause suppliers or owners any grief.
So if i have offended anybody,i apologize.

And hoot i have always told people that we run Racor fuel and water seperators.
I only chime in if i have an opinion.I feel all the investigative work being done will benefit everybody.We just know what keeps our stuff running.Experience and time.I do have an above average military/GM trained mechanic working for us full time in the shop.He services all the trucks.

Again sorry for anything that i may have said that caused grief.

Tom L.

[maxedbowtie]

John Kennedy hit the nail on the head!

They hold all the cards and are betting that you won't take the gamble of hiring attorneys etc. to battle them. At this point they have a service manager who says it was caused by an aftermarket product. They won't care what another dealer or service manager will say and probably won't even listen to them. They have made their decision as witnessed by the boiler plate letter they sent you "sorry you don't like this answer, call the BBB..." It will be up to a 3rd party mechanic to make a decision. They certainly won't go for that unless you do it yourself or hire an attorney to hound them on it. A BBB complaint will hold little water to the situation, as they freely suggest it. They will just say you voided the warranty. Besides, how many times have you checked the BBB for GM or Ford??? Check your local state laws as well that can twist their arm into something. California has a law, commission, etc. for everything imaginable. The squeaky wheel gets the grease!!

All I said about gauges is that it gives them a reason to dig more, be suspicious and lay blame somewhere else. It is not a smoking gun, but reason to look deeper. "what they don't know won't hurt them" goes a long way. If all that is hanging out in the open it puts you in a riskier situation for questioning... nothing more. All outlaws don't get caught and all outlaws aren't necessarily bad.

Good luck in your battle and at least fight them to get your warranties worth out of the truck in their lawyer costs to battle you. You paid for that much! ;)

[johnpugh]

As far as a new scan tool goes....

I was talking to a friendly wrench turner at my dealership (good ole boy and very very smart). Anyway, he stated that there is talk of replacing the Tech-2 with a Tech-3 device. Maybe this is the new tool Broker is talking about...

Later....

[HESS101]

I just read the whole thing and I'm feeling pretty low. Not quite finished with my gauge install and wanted to run the truck to get base line numbers, before installing my Juice. Thank goodness I did not. I cannot take the risk, especially with the expensive extended warranty. Anyone want to buy a never installed Juice in the box? I hope the info on the smart 03's is not true. Never would have known without TDP.
Steve

[Tsckey]

Getting back to the TLA's specific situation for a moment, I'm feeling a bit better about his David vs. GM's Goliath. Magnuson-Moss does permit the consumer to recover attorney's fees if successful against the manufacturer. It's still risky, you have to win, but there is a reward for doing so and not, as I feared just the opportunity to get the General to pay less for a new engine than you paid your attorney.

While More Power and others are correct that we ought to take responsibility for the consequences of our modifications, so must GM. The facts recited by TLA do not clearly implicate the Juice as the cause of his meltdown. Before denying coverage, the manufacturer must show that the failure was not caused by a defect in or malfunction of their product . A showing entails more than jumping to self-serving conclusions based on the presence of guages or the past use of a performance box.

TLA was open and honest about his use of the device. But as has been said over and over, the warranty coverage cannot be denied solely because a third party device was used on the truck. That device must be shown to have caused the failure. GM's unsubstantiated claim is not a showing.

Go back to the dealer where you have friends, but if they can't or won't help you, see a good lawyer, and that is not an oxymoron.

GM certainly has a right to protect itself against deceptive warranty claims and we are all better off if they do, or we will end up paying the cost of other's deception. But, they are not above the rules.

TC

[NWDmax]

If the juice was the cause of this failure there would be a whole bunch of us with the same or similar problems.
Correct me if I'm wrong here but JK runs an enhanced truck pulling a heavy trailer up a long long steep hill at the pull off.Now I figure he's pushing the envelope as far as the transmission is concerned and with the power he's putting down his engine has to be running higher piston temps than the kind of driving we are doing.If anyone was going to see a forced failure I think he'd be the one.
wouldn't higher piston temps also show up on the egt gauge? last time I checked sh#t really does roll downhill :eek:

[D-max Man]

TLA needs to have the parts inspected by a metallurgist to determine the cause of the failure.

This is what I do for a living. While I myself am not a metallurgist, I work with them every day and the parts will tell the story as to what happened if you can find someone who knows how to read them.

I have had an in depth "Failure analysis" course in which I have learned to identify the cause of most failures by looking at the evidence shown by the failed parts. If I cannot easily identify the cause, the parts go into a material review and a group of engineers and metallurgists inspect them and make the decision together.

If we cannot say for Certain what caused the failure, the benefit of doubt always goes to the customer!

My boss is insistent that if we don

[Husker Fan]

Wow, great thread!

It is for this very reason I

[RATDOC]

Does anyone know EXACTLY how the dealer "scans" the '03's for possible power inhancements???
While I'm NOT doubting the possibility, I can't understand what they're looking at. I've plugged my Tech2 into a couple of '01/'02's and found nothing that would 100% indicate use of any aftermarket item. You sometimes will see certain parameters out of range.......and that MIGHT be what they're looking at, BUT my argument would simply be that the sensor might be malfunctioning..........we all know about the bad mass airflow sensors as 1 example. I'll be getting my '03 in about a month and will check that one as well..........unless someone from around here has an '03 already that I could plug my Tech2 into to see. Being in the buisness, I've seen PLENTY of examples of dealers trying to "get over" on a customer based on the fact that the customer PROBABLY has/had some sort of power inhancement..........BUT never have I seen any dealer actually PROVE this in a court of law based
on what their tech "scanned". Again, I'm NOT saying it isn't possible, just really curious HOW it's done. On a side note.........ALL G.M. dealerships around here use ONLY the Tech2 as far as I know.
Tom

[D-max Man]

Husker Fan,

I agree with you that if the aftermarket device causes the failure, then warranty should not cover it. I make decisions every day about what warranty will and will not cover.

TLA has already said that he will step up and pay for it if it was indeed the Juice that caused the failure. The issue he is having is that GM will not respond to his request for the evidence that they used to make this claim.

A metallurgy report would tell the story one way or the other. I would think that both GM and TLA would want to have this done so no doubt is there on either side of the issue

[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: D-max Man ]</p>

[GMC-2002-Dmax]

Here is my take.

The Dealer says because you have gauges then you must have put an enhancement in your truck.

OK!

Why does GM put gauges in the trucks at all? I just need a fuel gauge and speedo, right. Why should I care what my engine temperature or tranny temperature is??? Why do HD's have a tranny temp gauge and 1500's do not. GM does not think it is a good idea to monitor temperatures I guess??? or is it a good idea.

I never heard of a dealer saying because you want to monitor a temperature of an exhaust or the boost of an engine that that is wrong. Many turbo gassers have boost gauges stock.

If I have a brochure for a performance exhaust that is not installed is that against the law. If I have an aftermarket air filter and my trans. develops an oil leak is that the cause???

I am p***ed. I think you dealer S*CKS!!!!

If my truck goes to the dealer and has gauges and I were questioned about why I would say is it against the law or voiding my warranty to monitor other engine functions???

Come-on give me a break. I would demand all records from you truck and any notes. I would go and ask a favor from you friends and send out a letter. I would tell them after you get the truck fixed you would put a billboard on your Horse Trailer with the dealer's name and GM's answer to your problem. Hey if you are telling the truth about a denial of warranty then it is not slander its fact.

GOOD LUCK!!!!

GMC ;)

[TraceF]

I called Edge, they have not heard that ANY ECM can be read to confirm the Juice product. It alters the pulse and width after the ECM data and therefore leaves no footprint.

Just what they said. I am taking no position here.

[SoCalDMAX]

Husker Fan,

I think everyone here agrees with you about being responsible for their own actions. I'm not angry or anything of the sort, just responding to see if I can get my point across.

Your analogy with the horse is a little flawed. The horse wasn't designed, engineered or built. There is no way to know for certain that the heart condition wasn't pre-existing, so no one in their right mind is going to give a 2yr warr. on a horse, or any sort of performance guarantee for that matter. The buyer should be getting a thorough physical on the horse just to be prudent.

When you buy an ext. warr., you're betting with the ins. co. that something is going to break and they'll have to pay for it. Ideally it will be something costing more than the premiums you've spent, in order for you to get your money's worth. Obviously, these ext. warrs. are great moneymakers, as evidenced by the number of cos. that offer the service. The prices set by the cos. for it are based on profitability, which in turn is based on overall reliability of the vehicles insured. So if they built a perfect vehicle, you (and others) would feel no need to buy an ext. warr. and they wouldn't be in business. But defective parts do get installed, things do fail over the course of time and through no fault of the owner. I don't think that very many race vehicles get ext. warrs. and get repaired at your expense. These cos. are as bad as HMOs, and they aren't going to OK a repair if they think anything is fishy.

So here is TLA. He had a failure in 2 cylinders. We've had 2 factory experts come on here and pretty much say this failure occurred due to an injector or needs to be further analyzed. The dealer assumed mods were made based on the installation of gauges? HUH?? TLA was honest about it, but think of the logic.

Is every person with binoculars a peeping tom?
Is every person with a gun a murderer?
Is every person with a computer a hacker?
Is every woman a ...

You get the picture. I'm waiting for them to tell Mac (or me), "You're powertrain warranty is void because we've found evidence you've tampered with the stereo. We've also analyzed the music you listen to and this indicates you're a type "A" personality who is prone to drive faster and modify his engine."

Look at the actual failure. It is up to GM to prove that the module contributed to the failure. EVERY cylinder should have the exact same damage if that is the case.

For some reason, extreme temps. were reached in 2 out of 8 cylinders. This can only be caused by fuel delivery problems or localized cooling problems. I never assume anything, especially at work. I give the benefit of the doubt, investigate and determine the real cause, remaining impartial the entire time. My answer is NEVER determined by who is going to pay for it.

Let's hope somebody at GM comes to their senses and realizes the goodwill they're losing by acting in bad faith like this.

Regard, Steve

[Husker Fan]

I wonder if they know the Juice is on the truck by the feedback they get from input sensors. If the truck is putting out more power, you think you would see it by how the rest of the engine (temperature / pressure sensors) reacts. As soon as these inputs go over a certain set point, it sets a code in the ECM to let the tech know that the engine is running over these parameters. It wouldn

[maxedbowtie]

I think we're getting a little off course here into the absurd!

Powertrain and stereo?? Last time I checked plugging a box into your powertrain has an effect on the powertrain. Just witness all the dyno reports or claims of great power enhancement. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is modifying the stock powertrain configuration and can void your warranty. Otherwise, why are so many getting their shorts in a twist doing everything they can to clear any evidence of their modifications????? Because they know that it has the potential of voiding their warranty as stipulated in the little book in the glove box.

In this case the dealer didn't have to assume anything. He was told mods had been used (they don't care when... they were used). That in itself qualifies for the potential refusal of warranty!

Once again, if you want to mod then go for it. If you want to try to get past the dealer and GM to warranty a problem that may have some relation to your mod, then go for it. But if you raise suspicion then they are going to check it out further. You should only expect that or you wouldn't make such an effort to erase evidence.

Gauges don't do anything but open eyes wider to look deeper. People that claim higher than average deductions on their tax forms aren't guilty of tax evasion, but they are set aside to get a deeper look and have to usually defend themselves. A warranty isn't a God given right. It is something the manufacturer puts on the vehicle WITH stipulations. If you don't follow them then you are putting yourself at risk and may have to defend your actions to get a clam through.

I think people have this mass misconception that the Magnuson Moss and other laws give them this bubble of protection against a manufacturer to do anything they want to their manufactured product. I would love to see the official links that state you can do essentially anything to your product and the manufacturer is still responsible for your doings. Hearsay from 3rd parties doesn't count.

www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm

Check it out...

btw, if you own a gun and are walking next to the scene of a shooting with it, that doesn't mean you are guilty of it, but you can pretty much guarantee you will be questioned for it.

[SoCalDMAX]

Why do aftermarket gauges automatically warrant a closer look? Mine are installed so I can monitor important parameters. The factory was too cheap to install them for me. Why does an engine related failure automatically get blamed on a performance mod? If a part bent or broke from obvious abuse, then I'll pay for my own repair. Saying that the Juice caused this failure is as absurd as the examples I gave, intentionally.

I agree, walking by the scene of a shooting with a gun is gonna get you questioned. But not CONVICTED. An *investigation* has to occur first. That's all I'm saying. In *this* case a knee jerk reaction has led to the determination of the root cause without proper investigation.

I certainly hope no one here has their engine fail on a totally stock Dmax and the dealer denies warr. work because data in the ECM said the truck was driven even though excessive temps. were reached. Although unfortunate, I would think GM would be justified because they installed gauges to inform us of what's going on, and the driver ignored them. I don't see how installing more gauges and monitoring more engine parameters constitutes carte blanche to suspect performance mods. Why did GM install any gauges at all?

I had 2 completely stock engines blow head gaskets. In both cases, the mechanics told me that the engines were run for extended periods with no coolant and were overheated. One engine took 5 hrs of abuse, the diesel took somewhere between 2 and 3 weeks. I paid for it all. The point is, the cause of these failures can be pinpointed with amazing accuracy.

I read the actual Magnuson-Moss Act. The one subsection which appears to apply is:

"15 U.S.C.

[maxedbowtie]

I don't disagree that a fair investigation should be done and from the way it sounds wasn't done in the beginning in this case. Maybe this particular dealer is on the hotseat from GM on previous claims and is being extra cautious to the detriment of others?? The only point I'm trying to make is that as said before, the dealer 'holds all the cards'. If some rogue service manager decides to tag your vehicle as one that has been damaged due to mods then you are going to have to fight it. If you have one manager that gets weary over seeing gauges (what is the percentage of those w/boost and egt gauges that haven't slapped a box on?) or is told that mods have been made in the past you may be s.o.l. for a rapid warranty claim. You are going to have to hire a lawyer and fight it or otherwise bend over and take it. A lawyer isn't cheap, nor is a new engine. The fact is if you are denied the claim you will have to dig into your pocket to fight it. You may win and get your lawyer bills paid and truck fixed or you may lose and have a hefty lawyer bill + a dead truck.

At some point extra risk, that may be totally unrelated to the true problem, was taken in this example and unfortunately is coming back to haunt.

Thanks for the link!!!
(lots of room for interpretation... or lawyers wouldn't exist)

[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: maxedbowtie ]</p>

[GMC-2002-Dmax]

Of you are a subscribing member then check this out.

http://www.thedieselpage.com/members/features/ritchiehays.htm

This is the article about the RACOR600 fuel filter.

This describes what happened to your pistons!!!

Fuel for the fire ;)

GMC :D

[dmaxalliTech]

HESS101, you say you want to sell your Juice?, how much do you need to have for it. I will buy it at the right price, obviously alot of people are loosing faith in our little wonder drug. I cant see any place that this would have caused failure. email me with a price (tqauto@aol.com)
and we will talk. I am putting a 4.61 juice in my truck for the weekend and am going to take snapshot data with my tech-2, comparing with and without juice. I can download the info and graph it out, thus comparing ALL info the PCM see's. Just to see what exactly is noticable with a scanner. As far as a tech-3 goes, never heard of such a thing, I went so far as to call numerous people at gm and they all were not aware of it, GM tools is not aware of it either. Our dealer is one of the top in the country for Certified Used cars sales and most likely we would know of someway to detect any abnormalies....

I do know that on medium duty trucks and larger, they do have the capabilities to see deep into the computer, but these are Cat and Detroits. Our meduim truck dealer here in town has never heard of such technology available for light duty units.

I do not know anywhere at the dealer level where it is possible to see any "flags" with the installation of a add on box, I can see, however, where you would be able to pick up a reprogramming device such as Predetor or a Hypertech. Juice mounts downstream of Pcm and does not affect data in or out of it, just changes what the pcm sends out.

I will do some data gathering over the weekend to at least set my mind at ease. Until I am convinced that the Juice is Junk, Email me with a price......

[mackin]

dmaxalliTech

Now we're talking......

Each and every one of us will appreciate your response and effort......

Socal as always you "Da' Man".......

What is being forgotten other then TLA'S unjustified conviction is IF this new found area of warranty denial stands, without UNIFORMITY the service manager can undoubtedly point fingers which can and will result in many denied warranty covers that certainly won't be Performance Box related but can be a cop out and be labeled as such.....

Hypothetically as Socal was relating to: Lets say I go in for a weeping transmission, which we all know some early 01's have do to torque converter bolts.....Service Manager sees gauges, WOO check for out of range parameters....What if there is some stored Maf codes or other SES?? Judgment call right?? Meanwhile there is a TSB (?) out for my condition.....Will I have to hire a lawyer and go to court or arbitration to have it resolved?? Maybe......

Examples.......

I asked my dealer about exciting my OD lock out, he told me drop it down a gear, true story.....I HAD to explain the OD lockout is standard in 03 , they said they would get back to me, never did....

I asked my dealer also to excite, if necessary, my PTO for high idle....They said that they would get back to me...They did and said that they would NOT be willing to do that....I said what .... What if I was installing a PTO device which my Allison is equipped and I need it excited??? We'll have to get back to you...Never did.....

Now just imagine ........ When does warranty start and begin when gauges are installed??With a dealer that doesen't know it's own product??

I'm not looking for GM to warranty my vehicle no matter what I do to it, I'll take responsibility.....Give them a BIG FOAM FINGER, and they'll use it !!!!!!
I have gauges because I tow at maximum capacity in hot weather over hilly terrain .... That's my story ,I'm sticking with it !!!!

MAC :( :(

[TraceF]

Broker may be off base about what the scanner/reader is doing. If he is bringing them across the border I would think they are probably at a minimum confirming the VIN against the ECM to avoid theft/title issues.?.

If most of the dealer techs and even Edge don't think "Plug and Play" detection is happening I would tend to not worry about the 03 warranty issue... yet.

Now on the broke motor- I tend to think if a different dealer has a different opinion you have a much better case, not only if you choose to go the legal route but with GM too.

The dealer where your truck is may be in bad shape with abusing their warranty claims already- and just not be willing to stick their neck out for a stranger broke down on the highway goin' by.

Get it home to your dealer and see what he thinks. My 2 cents.

Good luck cowboy.

[BROKERS]

No TraceF, they are not checking for theft or vin.
I am a bonded broker importer,there is different parties confirming those issues.

They are checking for performance enhancements on off-lease units.Warranty & odometer Fraud.I saw them using the scanning unit on a unit i was buying.IT WAS NOT A TECH 2, GMAC was providing the unit according to them.They told me that they receive their readings from 6 locations on the truck.I saw it being done.They said GM is all over the issue.Don't cry later when i told you guys.Trace I'm a CAR-GUY at heart,thats why i'm in the business.

Any how its time for me to go home,bought a 03 SS for my self this afternoon.To bad the streets ar'nt clean and dry.

Had to add.
I'm home,WHAT a NICE little TRUCK this SS :eek:

[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: BROKERS ]</p>

[Kennedy]

I'm Afraid...


I was in talking to the dealer about this modification detection stuff, and he told me something that really scared me. He said that there were hidden cameras in the back up lights and they caught me taking a tinkle on the side of the road on our recent trip... :eek:


Until someone shows me otherwise, I say BS! :rolleyes:

[Husker Fan]

I can

[TraceF]

Good laff JK but the film is on the internet already.

I'm afraid first/too.

On a serious side one guy I talked to today said HE heard that GM could check diagnostics via On-Star somehow ?

:confused:

[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>

[Kennedy]

I am under the impression that the data tables can be "seen" via Onstar. There are freeze frame/failure records shown when a DTC sets, but these merely show the data on the ECM as in what the ECM is commanding, and what the sensors are reporting back. I'm not sure where GM sets the threshold for boost codes, but I'm pretty certain it is below 30 psi. If the return signal was not capped by the module, it would surely set a code, so in other words, the module is hiding the boost signal above a certain point...

[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: kennedy ]</p>

[TraceF]

John- I (along with I hope one or two other readers here) have no idea what you just said/wrote.

Can you make it a little simpler and tell me why they would want to do this?

I haven't enrolled On-Star. Is data still streaming?

[FisHn2DMax]

I sent an e-mail to the General Manager ( a good friend) of the dealership I bought my truck from with concerns about Warranty and aftermarket add-on's, a copy of this threads main topic, and questions about the Juice. I did this after my Mr. GoodWrench brother in-law swore 03's are detectable, I just wanted to confirm this from someone that has always been honest! Here is the dealership GM's exact response ( I've edited out only the names and locations to protect identities) Below is his e-mail response:

Hi XXXXX,

When a chip is installed in the 03 models, it sets a permanent code in OBD that will always stay with the vehicle. Not even we can clear it. Not to worry, however, as adding a performance chip is frequently done. This can only affect your warranty if a dealer can correlate a related failure directly with the chip. This is extremely rare to begin with, and even more difficult for a technician to establish. Put it this way, I would do it, and not because I receive any preferential treatment here, its just that I know GM plays fair and steps up in most every case, and asks us to do the same if it

[gardnerteam]

Kennedy - I saw that picture taken by the hidden camera on your truck in "Diesel Fanatics NUDE". Believe me, it was no big deal! LOL.
On the serious side, as we still saying those of us who have activated up Big Brother On Star nor never used it are still unable to be traced by it? That was the theory a year ago - wondering if it still holds.
As to GM and warranty, they have continually looked for better ways to avoid warranty for the past 15 to 20 years, or so. Not like the 50's, 60's and early 70's. For advertising and sales purposes, Marketing has made warranties longer and broader, while Finance and Bean Counters have narrowed the language, and searched for anyway to avoid warranty claims. Two reasons - if GM had to provide total coverage claimed and promised for the period of years promised with the quality of vehicles they produce, your vehicle would cost 100K instead of 40K, and secondly, and just as important, product failures that are not covered by warranty are not recorded and do not appear anywhere to show the product is experiencing problems or has a higher warranty experience. Win - Win for GM. Nothing will change that. All other American manufacturers do the same. We have to live with it or buy foreign. Now if Porsche would just come out with a 167" wb Crew Cab turbo diesel we'd have something. For me, Porsche has always had the best warranty, best service, etc. I have track raced them under warranty and had everything covered and taken care of. Both the dealership and the Factory Rep knew - their point of view was it wasn't abuse or overuse to race the car - that was one of the things it was built for. GM only builds pickup trucks for light on highway or TV ad use.

[gardnerteam]

Prior should have said those of us who have NOT activated On Star.

[dmaxalliTech]

FisH, sounds like your svc manager is very understanding. It also brings a good point to mind. I have installed Juice's in customers trucks, at the dealer, with a repair order. So obviously, we are aware of there installs. I went so far as to take out the fixed ops mgr for a ride in my truck with juice. He was very impressed.

I think a good thing for all to do, if not done already, is to go to the dealer, talk to their diesel tech, get to know him personally. I find that most customers with these D/A trucks would rather talk to me then any manager or anybody else that likes to blow smoke. Let him know of your intentions and get his opinion, not that it means anything but if you spark his interest with what your doing, he might be able to overlook something that might throw that red flag. Afterall, if the tech dont say anything, who is to question it? This may not work at every dealer but I know that the people who come to me with D/A's get the best treatment I can give them, afterall, you just spent 40K or more on your truck, dont you deserve good treatment??
Please dont read into that and think if you dont spend that much, you dont get good treatment. Just take it at face value.

It could be that I am biased towards the owner side of the arguement because I own an 03 D/A.

Just my .02, take it for whatever

As far as Onstar is concerned, JK is right. Once a DTC is set, Onstar can retrieve the info, i.e. code stored and freeze frame data at the time of failure.

I am still investigating this "flag" stored when a chip is added, Had my tech-2 in overdrive on the way home tonite...

[TLA]

I appreciate everyone's comments here. I will reiterate that I am entitled to a written explanation of how the damage was caused by which after market part. I asked Leo Clear over the phone, and I asked Chevrolet Customer Care in writing. This on Wednesday. I have heard nothing. A man whom I respect and admire greatly, and under whom I served for 3 years as a Vice President of one of the National Equestrian organizations, told us all in our first meeting "Perception is Everything". And I perceive that I have been dealt with unfairly, particularly in regard to not providing the requested information.
Any other facts are facts - I have not reported many things, as they are 2nd, 3rd hand, or occurred in phone conversations. I have heard many things, and if I can verify them, I will report them as fact.
There is no doubt in my mind that if Chevrolet springs for even part of this, they will make no profit on my truck. But they made a profit on the 6 DMaxes and 1 6.0 that people are driving because of my recommendation. They made a profit on my '68 Z-28, my '87 Series 70, my '97 3500, my '98 3500. They made a profit on the new Chevrolet my father bought every 2 years for nearly 30 years. And they stand to make a profit on every one that could be sold by my future recommendations.
I can understand why many people never persue these things - the whole process seems to be geared to make it so expensive and so time consuming that no one wants to go there. I work 7 days a week - I still compete, and to do that and meet my other obligations, it takes that kind of effort. It is the way I am. To be involved in something like this takes my focus away from my work - training horses and riders. And at a some point (not yet), that has serious safety implications for me, and those who trust my judgement.
As to why we modify our trucks. For many, it is a personal expression. For others, there are short comings in the vehicle that we feel we need to correct for our operations. If you graphed numbers of buyers against certain criteria, you would have a bell curve where the bulk of the buyers are in the middle. That is who you build for. For those of us who fall outside the curve, changes may be required. That was my experience. I live at 6200'. To go in any direction requires going to 8000' or better. It is very hilly, and indeed very mountainous in 3 directions. We have a lot of wind. It was very common to have the truck running at 70mph, hit a hill, have the trans downshift to 4 and then immediately to 3 - pegged on the redline. How does that do engine longevity any good. With horses, you want to get there quickly, but not beat up the equipmant and horses in the process. Not possible to drive smoothly and consistently like that. And tiring! (oh, and I am talking running 2-3 mph below the posted speed limit). And EGT - with the coolant temp showing normal, the highest EGT I have seen was 1 year ago. I was Southbound on I-17 from Flagstaff to Phoenix. Coming out of Camp Verde, there is a long climb - about 7 miles, up a 6% grade. The temp outside was 71. The truck was stock except for an Amsoil filter and the EGT. I had 5 horses, which is a typical load for me.I watched the temp the whole way up, and about 1/2 mile from the top it reached 1000 degrees (post turbo - maybe 1300 pre) I was in 3rd, and I just backed off and eased over the top. Had I not known, I would have kept my foot in it and might have damaged the engine - stock!
How many of us have been contacted by GM after we have had our trucks in service for a while? How is working out? What do you use it for? What can we do to make it better? We would like to spend a day with you in your operations. In a very real way, those of us with '01 and '02 trucks (especially '01)are the beta testers for GM, yet our feedback seems to be unwanted.
The Horse Power/Torque wars have started. Both Ford and Dodge have more of both (Ford's shaky intro of its 6.0 not withstanding - what? Injector Problems? You don't say), so I bet the '04 has more HP/Torque. It has to to keep bragging rights. How to get more of both - more fuel, more heat. I'll bet the warranty won't be decreased. I'll bet that fundamental design changes won't occur - unless there is a real problem out there.
On edit - I'll bet a sh** wad of codes were set. Yet, as I knew there was something going on, I was looking at boost. When the trans went into 3, I saw 20 for an instant and the it dropped to ~15 - normal for this truck. It blew coolant everywhere after shut donw, etc. Then, I started it up and tried to get it off the highway for the safety of the horses. I'll bet there were codes out the gazoo and that not a one will provide any information.

[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: TLA ]</p>

[TraceF]

dmaxalliTech-

email me.

I want to get some pre-negotiated freight rates set up in case of melt down. I need names, addresses, etc.

:D

[GMC-2002-Dmax]

So let me update you guys,

I asked today and got a big fat "HUH, What are you asking?". I think it's BS as well.

My dealer is doing some more digging and I am trying to find out more elseware.

To another suggestion. What's to prevent me from unplugging certain sensors for a brief moment when the truck is warmed up, but keyed off and then restarting to falsely set codes??

I could think of more than a few that would set and store codes. Now I goto the dealer and he sees a ton of totally unrelated codes in real time stored. Does he think to himself, that's odd.

If it looks weird enough they may discount it all as a OBD Computer "Brain FART".Including any supposedly out of parameter codes.

Do that 3-4 times and establish a record, then let 'em try to prove something down the road.I feel sorry for GM. They know of problems and hide them, then finally own up to it.

Everyone know about the steering rattle!!!!

Also, computers are not perfect and neither are people or the techs operating things, both screw up.

I for one am not worried. It will always be out of sight and out of mind when I goto the dealer.

Go Ahead, Flame away!!!!! :eek:

GMC ;)

[TraceF]

TLA-

Now you're gettin' the right frame of mind brother. Don't take no crap from nobody.

GM has deep pockets- think your way through this but keep the attitude.

[kerry witherspoon]

Well can we be seen to use a power chip my cousin gm service manager has never herd of it , i have read the manuals for ny 2002 can not see a way,ran my own ob2 scan nothing shows upalso my salesman who sold me the truck has recomended to his partsman both the juice and the preditor they shold sell. So i think that maybe were being paranoid about this but if a performance problem caused the failure you would se it more than 2 cylinder,s . J.K pointed out onstar might be able to send codes but does g.m have a system to handle that much information from every vehicle ,they could not aford to do it litle alone find the info.I have seen many pistons melted long before electronic injection or juice.

[chuntag95]

I got a cell phone and hands free kit, so why do I need onstar for 17 bucks a month? Never used it in the first comp year anyway. I thought I saw somewhere how to disable it, but that was for the Pred install or something. Don't know what else it will turn off as well. Knowing my luck it will be the AC :rolleyes: The more I hear about the 03, the more I'm glad I got the O2. I thought the MPG would have been cool, but I have a calculator and an excel sheet that I trust more anyway. They probably send your fuel mileage up on Onstar too. :eek: Remember the 3 rules of life. 1. Don't sweat the small stuff. 2. It's all small stuff. 3. Tomorrow is another day. :D I will be really interested to find out the real cause if that ever shows up. As I said before, hang in there. We're all pulling for you.

[huntindog]

Interesting thread.
Some things I noticed.
TLA removed the juice some time ago?????
Why? tired of the extra performance?
To everyone I know, extra HP is like crack for an addict,, difficult to impossible to leave it.
Towing six horses and gear for a show up hills,,,,,and EGTs never exceeded 750 degrees??
That load has too be close to or over max ratings.
Two pistons melted and EGTs never exceeded 750 degrees??? How then, did they melt?
I don't think its at all impossible to only melt two pistons with the juice+heavy loads+a heavy right foot.
I say this because I have seen many individual cylinder EGTs taken on Sprint car motors. I have never seen a motor yet that didn't have 1 or 2 cylinders that ran hotter than the others (my theory is something to do with coolant circulation, as most times the hot ones are next to each other)
The fact that the other 6 did not melt means nothing. The hot ones melt and the motor quits, so the other 6 never got hot enough to melt.
(I disagree with the injector theory as that would require TWO injectors to fail at the same time!)
Anyone who has ever welded aluminum can attest to how critical heat is to it. It goes from a "solid" state to liquid extremely fast.
In other words,,If aluminum melts at 1500 degrees (I forget where it actually melts) then it can run at 1499, but the instant it hits 1500 there will be a meltdown.(I'm reffering to the actual temp of the metal,NOT EGTs)

I think the regular dealer put the knife in TLAs back when he admitted using the juice,(the warranty was voided at that point) he probably put that in the file. I am sure that GM red flagged the VIN at that point.

I am sorry to hear about TLAs problems, but I must reluctantly call B.S. on his story.
I think the Juice was on and his driver didn't pay attention to EGTs.

[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: huntindog ]

[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: huntindog ]</p>

[maxedbowtie]

I have used OnStar to try to diagnose codes on the move and from experience they cannot download everything. I had high rail pressure and high voltage error codes twice and OnStar could come up with nothing in their data download. I had to take it to the dealer to find out what they were...

Back to the topic: I would be a little weary of the personal recommendation of a general manager or any auto store employee touting a warranty voiding product. I bet you would have a hard time finding them and their opinion when it came to dualing with Mother GM. Besides, it may be the prettiest little box in the world, but according to the warranty contract (which you most certainly don't have to abide by and they certainly don't have to provide if you don't) you void your contract by modifying. Even Mr. Magnuson or Mr. Moss won't stand by you when you violate the terms of the contract. To top it off you can be sure the box maker won't have their checkbook out either.

Maybe GM and all the other manufactures should offer a warranty delete option at the sale and rebate the customer the average warranty cost (maybe a couple of grand) and say modify all you want. I doubt many would take that route over the attempted ace in the hole to GM, because the risk is too high. So, in reality who is screwing who? The big bad mother GM or any other manufacturer who is trying to control their costs and prevent abuse of the guarantee of their product or the consumer that is dogging them and getting away with it making me and everyone else pay for it in their next vehicle? I'm certainly not 100% innocent in trying to slip something through...

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but there is a point where you have to view both sides. Each situation is different. There are businesspersons on here that have to deal with people trying to undercut them every day in what they do. It's a royal pain in the a** to have to deal with that (besides being expensive). It goes both ways... A manufacturer has to be fair in their delivery of their guarantee, but they should expect the same from the consumer. If they get undercut by one then they will be out looking for others with more stringent tests.

[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: maxedbowtie ]</p>

[orange2]

The onstar must be disabled to install a Predator, makes you wonder what they really can see. I agree, if he only saw 750 on the pyro and was pullin a big hill... I can't say as I haven't got gauges and haven't pulled anything, but with that heavy of load you would think they would be higher. My semi has a detroit n it and with a heavy load it will run 870 very quickly on the slightest hill, post turbo pyro, and 900 alot. So with the load he was pullin I would say at a cruise it would run at least that hot. I also agree once he told his dealer (about the juice) that his truck was flagged whether he knew it or not. So it would be fair for gm to assume it waws still on the truck. I am tempted to take my prdator off and take my truck to a dealer and complain about something so they have to hook up a tech2 and see if they bring anything up. Might as well know now instead of later. Still a very bad deal for tla. :(

[BROKERS]

Gentlemen, The Vetronix TECH 2 was not the scanner they were using.I know what they look like,we own one. They were plugged in under the hood in the Engine compartment.The scanner looked like a 3/4 scale laptop.Case was Red in color.

Any way ,good luck ,i know what i saw.

[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: BROKERS ]</p>

[mdrag]

HEY Brokers,

I'm not picking on you tongue.gif just trying to make sense of this...

I'm wondering that since you were talking about scanning off-lease vehicles - could it be that the leasing company installed their own 'black box' and their scanner was reading that info?

Not too long ago, some of the car rental companies were sending fines to renters since they had exceded the speed limit...The rental companies had their own 'black boxes' installed...caused a big ruckus, and I believe the practice has stopped (for now).

As far as On-Star, I read a bulletin somewhere that GM was starting to DEACTIVATE the units in vehicles that did not have subscriptions...I guess there were too many people waiting to 'subscribe' until they had a breakdown and needed assisstance :eek:

I'm sure the OnStar deactivation is being done for liability reasons - if it's active and the airbag deploys, there is no way they can ignore it. The Tech2 can be used to verify whether OnStar is active or not - check the phone number that OnStar calls to see if it is valid.

[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: mdrag ]</p>

[IndigoDually]

Brokers, the scanner You are referring to sounds like a Snap-On. The Snap-On scanner can't access nearly as many parameters as the dealer's scanner. For one thing it can't reset the trans to quick learn(as far as I have found, If anyone out there has found how to do this let me know).

Wasn't the Duramaximiser touted as factory approved and solt by GM Dealers? I read this in many ads. Call PACIFIC Performance Engineering in Ca. They advertise it as "Used by GM Dealers as a Dealer installed Option" call for a list of dealers.

This to me says that "Boxes" are ok to use.

John

[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: IndigoDually ]</p>

[FisHn2DMax]

MaxedBowTie,

You make some very valid points!

I gather you won't be asking Santa for a Juice Box under your X-mas tree? LoL... :rolleyes:

As a businesman, I too agree that there is a price and cost for every warranty claim, and that cost is ultimatley borne by the consumer. We as truck owners must expect to bear some of that burden when we modify or operate our vehicles outside of the manufactures recommended operating parameters. If I was a GM Exec, and I was charged with keeping Warranty costs down, I too would ask engineering to add vehicle monitoring devices to "flag" improper vehicle operation and maintenance. Why should the majority that do take care of their vehicles, have to pay for the few that don't? HOWEVER, with that being said, GM nor any manufacturer should have the right to preclude warranty coverages based only on suspicion and without clear and correlative evidence clearly linking failures to aftermarket device(s) and/ or lack of normal maintenance.

:D

[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: FisHn2DMax ]</p>

[Kennedy]

Trace,

My take is this:

Onstar is ONLY "online" with your truck should an air bag sensor trigger, OR if you call them. GM does NOT have a major database like Santa Claus to tell if you've been naughty or nice.

When a DTC is set, freeze frame records are set, but the long and short of it is, that it shows what the ECM was commanding, and what the sensors were reporting back. A plug in module doesn't directly alter the outputs as seen by the diagnostic part of of the ECM, only by what the fuel components see. It also alters, or can alter the sensor signals. In other words a signal for 88mm3 of fuel is still the same signal as seen on the freeze frame records, but the injector sees a signal equivalent to 88mm3 PLUS a given percentage depending on the module. On sensor return data, the module CAN cap the signal at a given voltage so that the maximum signal that can be returned is within the ECM's "safe" parameters. In other words, if the boost psi cap were set at 45 psi, the boost sensor could be "seeing" over 50 psi, but the module is only letting it report back 45 psi.

FYI, the boost sensor reads ABSOLUTE psi, so it will read 13-14psi atmosphere as a base signal...

[maxedbowtie]

I absolutely agree that warranty denials can't be based on hunches. All I ever said (or if I didn't meant to say) is that certain items or doings may raise a red flag to look or research deeper. It becomes incredibly hard to overcome a warranty denial in cases such as this when you tell them that you had a box on your engine and then have a meltdown. Those two can be related, if even remotely. They then have the power to throw it back on you to prove that it didn't by denying the claim. The manufacturer has to be fair in their delivery just the same...

I actually came on this site to research such things as the juice, etc. and the potential problems people were/are having with them. I just got my truck out of the shop w/2k miles on it. They hunted for an electrical problem for almost 10 labor hours! I know if I had placed a box on there I would have had a large yellow stream running down my leg fearing they would find out and unjustly throw it in my face that the box was the source and deny the work. I would have won, but I'm not so sure they would have spent so much time on it before passing the blame to me or even threatening to throw out the claim 'just because'.

As far as asking Santa... Maybe in a year or two with more of a track record on them and when the miles are up there more, lowering the level of risk on losing the warranty.

[Bulldogger]

My take on all this stuff with monitoring devices is total B.S. The trucks come from the factory with built in safety measures to aviod problems i.e. rev limiters you can floor a gas motor in neutral to red-line and it starts to apply fuel cut offs to every other cylinder to prevent the motor from over reving and comming apart. The allison has built in limp mode. Gm shouldn't be voiding anyones warranty unless it was something drastic like you changed your oil and never put any back in and started driving around.If you can toast your stock motor towing a load then GM seriously missed the boat. Many people are not mechanically inclined and send their trucks to dealers or local mechanics for basic maintenance. Trucks don't come with EGT guages so obviously GM doesn't feel you need to watch these temps.There are suppose to be built in safety features for normal operation these systems don't work when there is a flaw in the unit from the factory like an improperly hardend connecting rod that decides to let loose at some arbitrary mileage and rpm, or stuck injectors that melt pistons.Dealers like the one TLA experienced are talking out there ass and don't want to be bothered having to do any extra work unfotunately they do hold the cards, and there are plenty of crappy dealers all over and for every brand.Personally if it was my truck I'd be screaming bloody murder and Mr Manager would be sleeping with one eye open. Dave

[ 03-08-2003: Message edited by: Bulldogger ]</p>

[mackin]

BROKERS

Quote: "Gentlemen, The Vetronix TECH 2 was not the scanner they were using.I know what they look like,we own one. They were plugged in under the hood in the Engine compartment.The scanner looked like a 3/4 scale laptop.Case was Red in color.

Any way ,good luck ,i know what i saw."

====================================


Where did they plug in under the hood?? Truck running or off??


MAC :confused:

[ 03-08-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[Black Dog]

Did you disbelievers happen to notice that FisHn2DMax corroborated Broker's story in his post above? I don't think either one of them has a reason to make this stuff up.

[GMC-2002-Dmax]

I have to say I am skeptical. I do not think GM can do what Broker is claiming. No offense Broker.
Sounds like a SNAP-ON Scanner to me as well.

I am not a computer expert and I am not a deisel expert so this is only my opinion.

IF GM can't figure out common problems when you bring it in for service half the time for SES codes and if they had a computer so sophisticated to track every little thing then all they would need is one awesome computer tech and a wrench man to change out parts.

B.S. is what I'm calling this one. Chalk it up to another INTERNET RUMOR,

Kinda like the gas import rumor and the microsoft will pay you if you forward this e-mail.

PURE B*LLSH*T!!!!!! :eek: :eek:

GMC smile.gif

[ 03-08-2003: Message edited by: GMC-2002-Dmax ]

[ 03-08-2003: Message edited by: GMC-2002-Dmax ]</p>

[mackin]

Black Dog

I posted this to Broker on anouther BB.....Same applys.....


I don't think TDP members are in total disbelief,but want spacifics not generalization,were reading and seeing .... But what are they gathering?? You say chip you say plug and play there are also ECM reprogramers...In addition they have entire NEW ECM drop ins.....So what are they detecting?? From where??Which device,there are many today??You mentioned Edge Juice, plug and play...They do not remove speed limiter or rev limiter....So any Stored DTC and or freeze frames wont coincide with what your "implying" they are looking for.....I think you and we need more info then what has been presented thus far before an assumption is made....Plug and play just may be fine,(fine as in not getting a automatic warranty denial) ECM tampering in a rewrite file scenario even if put back to stock,which some cannot be put back,and which all of this type still might contain some freeze frames..A drop in ECM may be a whole different story.....Can you say for sure today or yesterday which device is being detected or anything beyond rev, speed limiter freeze frames,DTC mil being present?? Mileage tampering is a whole subject in it's self.....

We're not far from each other,I know of a test mule when you get your new improved lie detecting,truth serum, scan tool in hand let me know........

MAC

[ChevysRus]

You all do know that ON Star "pings" and it is basically a GPS tied in to a cell phone and is capable of sending and receiving signals...right!

Do you also know how easy it is for GMAC to find and repossess an On Star equipped vehicle whether you subscribe to On Star or not?

It's not just air bag deployment or open the doors on lockout from 200 miles up. The technology and capability is already in place, they just have to decide what they want to record and control.

In an earlier post I told you about how much we can record and monitor our fleet. There is one other capability we never implemented, but we could do it, we have the ability to shut down specific units anywhere in the world if the bills are not paid. We decided the liability of doing this was too great. It can be done, cops have the ability now to shut down speeding cars by transmitting a signal to the speeding car's computer (not in place yet everywhere, but coming)

So keep up those payments because you never know what can happen. We live in a changing world, live by the rules and all is well, break the rules and little by little it is getting harder and harder to get away with it.

Sleep Well

[hoot]

Edge says no.....

http://www.xmission.com/~brimhall/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=3e6**78d3b70ffff;act=ST;f=1;t=86

[FirstDiesel]

Sure your believing them?? smile.gif

Would be nice to know for sure, huh?? There's a lot of opinion here and no proof. My guess would be they are right but that's just on experience and hunches. With today's electronics who knows what the manufacturers have been able to hide in the computer programs.

I've heard they even have cameras hidden in the A/C vents taking your pictures and sending them via OnStar to the FBI. :D

[BROKERS]

Gents,It was NOT A SNAP-ON SCANNER.NOT a TECH 2.

Call it BS or whatever,i know what i saw.

1 Plugged in under the hood to the harness.
2 Truck was running
3 They were dresspant-shirt&tie clean cut guys showing the Tech guys how to run it.

They told me i could "probably buy one in about 60 days" .
I went down stairs and looked at the particular truck i bought.It came in last nite and it has no On star.

Don't forget guys i was the one running Racor fuel filter/Water seperator day one in the 01.


As for the nasty E-mails i'm receiving, thank you!

[ 03-08-2003: Message edited by: BROKERS ]</p>

[FirstDiesel]

Brokers

Anyone sending you nasty emails is a jerk. What purpose does it serve?? You saw something going on that no one else has. Are you automatically wrong or lying?? NO You have info others don't have. Why they would treat you badly because of this is unreal.

Just ignore them.

[mackin]

I agree with the Email crap.....That's wrong in every way.....No need for it like or dislike how this information is perceived.... :mad:

If it's the case he is doing some a favor like it or not..... "If" there is a way around it, we'll find out once the specifics are acknowledged.....

So,
Let it get ironed out first, then we'll let him have it ...Just kidding Brokers.....

MAC redface.gif

[BROKERS]

First diesel,

I'm in the office hussling some units because business is bad.I turn on the computer and i have 73 E-mails in my in box.I'm excited!I take off my jacket and hope i got some dealers confirming orders.The sun is shining on my new 03RED SS ,it is sitting down below my window.I grab a cup of coffee and sit down.I pull out my phone register and a lucky pen to jot down my dealer score.Blam! MY day is shot, i can't beleive it! I'm receiving love notes from Duramax experts!

Oh well, i think i'll keep my mouth shut from here on in.

Tom L.

[Tsckey]

Tom,

I can't imagine why anyone would send you critical emails. You have generously shared your real-life experiences with us and have given us all tremendous confidence in the capabilities and longevity of our trucks under extremely hard useage. Why a few buttheads would take it on themselve to rag on you is beyond me. Your're like a beacon out there. Please don't go away. Your insights are priceless.

TC

[GMC-2002-Dmax]

Broker,

I agree with MAC 100%. I don't think sending e-mails is appropriate and this is an open forum right!!! :mad:

If someone wants to disagree do it in the open and do not make anything personal, in other words let's not shoot the messenger!!!!

Thanks for the info, I am however still a skeptic. If you do find out more please post what you know as we all want to know. :D

Thanks,

GMC ;)

[DMAX Daddy]

Nah Brokers, use that delete key! We all learn from your input, the problem here is you are a bearer of not so good news. The knee jerk reactions are beginning to happen.

Personally Im still getting a Juice after it comes out with its little in cab monitor thingy. Ill enjoy it and go from there.

I do some computer programming, and Im sure Onstar and other little black boxes on board can detect stuff.

Im also confident Chevy will warranty an item if was FUBAR and was not related to the installation of the box. They can NOT have a bad publicity hit, when they are so close to ruling the roost for several years with the DMAX.

I think a local dealer will help resolve this, rather than some yahoo 300 miles away.

[BROKERS]

One last time.
The E-mails are still coming,?WTF?

Now ,I'm being threatened by litigation from one MFG.

[pinehill]

Brokers,

If you would like to put a stop, very quickly, to the crap you are seeing, just post copies here of these obnoxious e-mails that you are receiving.

[imported_]

Litigation!?!? who.... post it here so we can all get on their case!!!
i for one do not doubt your words.... but it is a little scary what they can do in electronics nowadays..... and a 'black box' style nvram chip that can store a few hundred hours of information of a few key sensors would not take any room at all...1 gig of nvram would comfortably fit into a tin of snuff....not possible?...you be the judge

[TLA]

BROKERS - I think we all appreciate your input. How can anyone think you are doing anything other than providing information? I for one, value the input of every member of this BB, regardless of my own position on it.

[Burner]

I don’t know if anyone has seen or heard of GM randomly placing “black boxes” in cars and trucks but they have. GM has been placing these “boxes” in cars and truck for years. The boxes have a 7 or 10 second memory, maybe more. They mainly record brake position, throttle position, acceleration speed, speed, deceleration speed, RPM, selected gear and sometimes wheel position. GM stated that these boxes were for crash tests. Real world testing as GM called it. I am not totally convinced that is their only purpose. What leads me to believe they are “watching” is the mere fact that the boxes “do have” a small permanent memory. These boxes will remember high speeds, hard acceleration and heavy brake impute. I do not think that GM must divulge this to the customer. However, it may be available upon request? BROOKERS may have one of those boxes? Perhaps someone at GM can give us more information. :confused:


I am wondering if the "new" boards in the 03's have all this crap in them? :( I am sooo ready for more power! I will have some after I put this thing on the big drum. :D


Burner

[TraceF]

Broker- How are they emailing you? I get email from forum members all the time but my email address is in my sig. I have tried to email other forum members and I get a message that says only moderators can do this.

[svpdiesel]

BROKERS- Don't be disouraged by whatever idiots are flaming your email box. There are a lot of us out here reading your posts with great interest, and it would be a shame to not hear from your unique position and point of view. I agree with Trace- how did they get your email address, anyway? Tell us who is jerking you around, and I think you will be surprised by how many will stand up for you.

Steve

PS- I would love to know exactly what the scanner sees to flag a perf. module like Juice, since it doesn't leave any kind of signature...

[MadDuraMax]

I hate to think that my post may have in part helped this thread take such a left turn! To hear of now personal attacks on BROKERS for posting what he has seen is simply BS. I can only hope the copies of the emails he has recieved have been fowarded to MP. Sometimes the "censorship" TDP is labeled with is a good thing.

Most of what we all read here are opinions, some very well informed some not. Because you may or may not agree with a post is no reason to personally attack the person who has expressed their point of view. My statements were made from having over 25 years of engineering and management experience in the heavy duty truck, trailer and automotive manufacturing industries.

It's up to each of us to form a belief on this issue based on what we read, study and know from experience. I can tell you that the technology is there to record indications of misuse and or stock alterations on vehicles by monitoring operating perameters because I've seen this with several large manufacturers. What exactly, if anything is monitored and stored on our Dmax's parameters is a matter of speculation at this point unless someone has contacts with GM, the Dmax team or contractors of the ECM/PCM. This information is normally held quite confidentially by ALL manufacturers.

TLA's trucks problems do not on the surface seem to be related to installation of a perfomance enhancing modual. However, this is only my opinion.

Mark

[BROKERS]

Gentlemen,

One of my drivers was grabbing another load at the same place this afternoon.I asked him to go in and talk to a couple of Techs that he is friendly with.The did not want to talk about it but they let him look at the scanner.This is what he relayed to me over the cell phone.

Hughes Electronics
AutoBack Scan
RS 23269
OBDII -OBDIII
DTC -Type A,B,C
A-5 Backload MAF,MAP,MAT,EGR-Parameter ECM
J1858-3 VPWR Bosch Vp4

This may help ,i dont know ,this was what was printed on the back of the laptop looking device.
There was 2 cables in the case.
This is the best i can do.

[maxedbowtie]

http://www.seniormag.com/headlines/blackboxcars.htm

GM has been putting 'black boxes' on vehicles for many years. There is a revolving memory that can be retrieved at any time. I believe there is a box under your seat (at least I believe that is where it is on the 1500's) It is yet another way of covering their butt against stupid liability claims... With rising liability, warranty, and every other cost, they will continue to scrutinize at ever deepening levels. Does anyone remember the LA case where GM was sued for the gas tank blowing up? The vehicle was hit in the rear by a drunk driver at about 70-80 mph to cause it to blow up!! I believe they used data from these devices to prove that. However, with LA's famous lottery juries they were still found guilty.

I really don't think you need to worry about GM workers sitting in the back room going over OnStar data trying to find someone who punched the go pedal to the floor. I don't think the reward would justify the cost on that one, besides, that may be a little overboard on the conspiracy theories...

on a side note:

Personal e-mails??? It's a shame and quite spineless if people aren't big enough to air their complaint in the open forum! Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If the opposing/alternate view bends you out of shape that bad it may be time for a refill on the prozac!!

[Duramaxerado]

TLA, I have some information for you that may help in your dilemma.

I have the exact contact information of the main production mgr at DMAX LTD in Ohio.

Email me and we can chat..

I will give you his exact contact information and he may be able to help you out here. I have been speaking with an engine builder at dmax ltd about your case and he assured me that this route may definitely get you some answers. I hope this helps man..

I do not want to post his information here so contact me if you can..

Xristob@aol.com

[JEBar]

From reading all of the post in this thread, it would appear that the general feeling is folks with '01 & '02's are fortunate in that GM did not place some program or gismo in our trucks that can tell for sure if a Juice type program has been used on our trucks. Fellow's with '03's have trucks appear to have some sort of tattle-tale method of keeping track. Is that correct?? That being the case, it will be very interesting to see how they can eventually prove anything about the '02's engine failure that started this thread. Hope you will push them to the max so that they are forced to produce whatever they think they have.

Brokers ... enjoy your post, don't let the e-mails get you down ..... Jim

[TraceF]

Regarding Brokers device-

Hughes Electronics???

Does anyone know if OnStar piggybacks on DirecTV satellites?

Hughes is DirecTV.

[GMCTRUCK]

Hopefully this will turn out to be a non-issue. If it is true and I have a problem I'll go with Toddster's advice: deny, deny deny. Broker, the emails you have been getting are not cool. I think you should post the names of every negative email you received. If you don't want that kind of attention just mail me the names along with an envelope with 100 fresh, unmarked hundred dollar bills and everything will be taken care of. Nice a nice. :cool:

[Duramaxerado]

LMAO GMC TRUCK!!!! :D :D


Hey, I will do it for 60 unmarked bils.. :D :D :D :D

[Kent Tuttle]

TraceF
Actually, Hughes Aircraft Company was bought buy GM in the mid 80's, it became General Motors Hughes Electronics (GMHE). In '97 they started spliting up and selling off the old Hughes, Raytheon and Boeing were the two big buyes. I know Direct TV is the big thing left from GMHE but I'm sure some other stuff is still going with GMH like what Broker has posted info about.

Also, sorry TLA about your troubles, I hope it all works out.

[Duramaxerado]

TLA, you got mail bro!!

follow what I sent you in the email and you will definitely recieve some customer assistance.

One thing DMAX LTD is strong on is customer service and reputation.

Screw the dealer.. go straight to the top..

All of the info is in your email.

good luck bro!!! ;)

[fred]

its real sad to see someone like "brokers" get so much crap just for relaying info he saw at a dealer ,all he was doing was helping,i for one would like too see all the people that e-mailed him in a threatning way draged behind a d/a, and im willing to drive it,this sucks.

thanks, fred
also "brokers" keep up the good work

[Bulldogger]

When I originally bought my truck, and after the first tow from Florida to Ny, I complained to the dealer that I thought the truck was low on power. The dealer stated they would download an up-date for more power by adjusting the TQM (torque managment program) the tech stated it is downloaded via satellite. The truck was driven to a different part of the dealership so I didn't see the tool used. But alot of the programs and up-dates are sent via satelittes. As far as readable stored info on the ECM, Maybe Steve Cole could shed some light on this, he reprograms them for more power and in the past has stated it would be very hard to diagnose the difference inbetween his and stock unless you compare exact files side by side frame for frame. But then a plug and play module doesn't re-write anything on the ECM so I don't see how they could find anything. Dave

[mackin]

Well TLA unfortunately your topic has switched to anouther subject....

Here is some OBD III info......
=&gt; OBDII is a very sophisticated and capable system for detecting emissions problems. But when it comes to getting motorists to fix emission problems, it's no more effective than OBDI. Unless there's some means of enforcement, such as checking the MIL light during a mandatory inspection, OBDII is just another idiot light.
Currently under development are plans for OBDIII, which would take OBDII a step further by adding telemetry. Using miniature radio transponder technology similar to that which is already being used for automatic electronic toll collection systems, an OBDIII-equipped vehicle would be able to report emissions problems directly to a regulatory agency. The transponder would communicate the vehicle VIN number and any diagnostic codes that were present. The system could be set up to automatically report an emissions problem via a cellular or satellite link the instant the MIL light comes on, or to answer a query from a cellular, satellite or roadside signal as to its current emissions performance status.

Source:=&gt;http://www.accutest.co.uk/contentPages/Engineering/DiagTele.htm#beyond

You can read it all there.....How this will all "FIT" together more research must be accumulated..... ;)

I see the 03 correlation do to the expansion of pollution devices with EGR and Cat.....Still seems to me even with additional monitoring other then a misfire at a higher speed or governed rpm it's still no smoking gun.....


Bottom line, it will be them tree hugging SUM B!TCHE'$ fault on the West coast.....

I know it looks like some,as in me, maybe looking to get warranty coverage on a catastrophe failure from a aftermarket device, but that's not my case ..... I'm concerned with a CATCH ALL warranty denial scenario do to a miss informed GM service manager.....I'll take my lumps caused by my own actions.....


MAC

Edit;

Some more info =&gt;http://asashop.org/autoinc/may/obd_iii_new.cfm

[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[TraceF]

Bulldogger- Send me email please.

[ski]

TLA,

Sad situation, the dealer you mention is the one use primarily as I live in Las Cruces. I am disappointed with there decision as I have had many discussions of aftermarket parts and warranty (drivetrain due to potential lift, etc). I guess I will be thinking twice. :(

[SledZep]

Wow this is some thread. if you already have 98 cents you may appreciate these thoughts.

I would not dought that GM can tell if the box has been on there (for now atleast)at no time do we or the dealers know everything there is to know. I am sure that detecting them is very simple if they choose to build it into the system. If you would like a list of ideas let me know.

Nobody here believes that this type of information should be/could be used against you without proof. Even though TLA admitted to having used the juice he should not be denied a claim without proof it was the cause. I am confident this will be the case eventually but nowhere is it written that GM cannot give customers a hard time over it. We know they shouldn't but that is another matter.
As for where and how much information they can store... do not underestimate them. They do not need to put where and how in anything we can read.

Please stop bothering Broker. Nothing he said can get him into trouble and if you dot have backbone to state your opinion here in the light of day do not do it to him personally.

My predictions??
What broker stated will be shown to be fact...
and then manufacturers of the Perf Mods will find a way to outsmart the tool again.
Then the battle will start anew

[GMCTRUCK]

How can anything be detected if its plugged in after the computer? Since I plugged in the TST my trip onboard is useless now when it comes to wanting to know how much fuel I've used and what my instant and average mileage is. The truck now thinks I'm using less fuel per mile than I actually am.

[BROKERS]

At work,loading for NJ run.Sold some units!

THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT!Envelopes are loaded and licked waiting for adresses!

There has to be sombody else that can crack this one.Sombody has to know what the info from the back of the laptop means.

WTF? Hostile E-mail is at 1378! Aol can only accept 300 at the time,incase you wanted to know.
I removed my e-mail from every board that i belong to.I never knew that you could remain annonymous as a sender with no return adress.

Later Tom L.

[ 03-10-2003: Message edited by: BROKERS ]</p>

[OC_DMAX]

I'll add a little more here about Hughes Electronics (which hopefully someone can use to piece a bigger picture together). What Kent Tuttle wrote above about Hughes is an accurate description. I worked for Hughes for twenty years until GM decided to split the company into small parts and sell off the pieces (I went with the defense electronics portion to Raytheon).

There is one thing that Kent did not mention and that is that Delco Electronics was part of Hughes. When GM bought the former Hughes Aircraft in 1985, they merged in Delco Electronics with Hughes Aircraft and later renamed the whole thing to Hughes Electronics. To the best of my knowledge, the Delco division of Hughes made a lot of the electronic content that went into GM vehicles. This includes some of the engine controllers. When General Motors began to spin off most of the pieces (around 1999 timeframe), Delco went to another GM controlled company called Delphi, which later itself was spun off as a separate company. So at some point in time, Hughes Electronics was the company that supplied a lot of the electronic content to GM. But that ended almost four years ago, and today most of that content should be coming from Delphi. The only parts of Hughes that are left is the DirecTV operations and Hughes Network Systems. Maybe what is mentioned about Hughes Electronics above in the post by Brokers is some product that was done 3 or 4 years ago that still has their name attached to it.

I hope that TLA and General Motors reach a fair and equitable solution to the situation that exists.

Regards,
Alan

[orange2]

Brokers, 1378 e-mails? That is ridiculous, they are annonymous also? Didn't know that was possible. That takes somebody with no balls. TLA, hope the info from Chris helps you out of this, something about this is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth. I think its Called GM, but i also hear Cummins will void warranty for exhaust that increases hp. These big companies are no fun anymore. :(

[TraceF]

I still have the same question... does OnStar piggyback on DirecTV satellites?

[mdadgar]

TraceF,

No, actually OnStar runs over the analog cell phone network (believe it or not). One of the digital networks would be much better, of course, but none of them can yet match the coverage area of the old analog system.

- Mark

[TraceF]

How can they pinpoint your coordinates so accurately?

[FisHn2DMax]

Trace,

I use my On-star on a regular basis as I travel a lot between rural hospitals to work with Surgeons (Surgical sales) in a four Rocky mountain state area. It's true on-star uses local cell phone towers for voice and data communication. The satellite technology is the GPS receiver ( Global Position System) that is built into the on-star unit. On-star sends out a digital information packets to the On-star central computer even while your talking with them. The built in GPS is very accurate! I called one time to demonstrate On-star locating capability to some friends. The on-star advisor told me I was sitting in my driveway. This blew us away, she was right on!

I use both a cell phone and On-star when traveling! I find I can use on-star cell service in areas my normal hand set cell phone has no service! I believe this is due to the higher power of the On-star transmitter. It delivers a full 3 watts to an external antenna, while my normal hand set cell phone is only .3 watts or 300 milliwatts and is trying to receive and transmit through the cab. On-Star cell service cost is coming down to an almost affordable rate. It's still expensive, but it's great to have when it's needed.

The magic in On-star system is the digital packets of information they can retrieve or send to and from your vehicles' on board systems. Otherwise it's sophisticated cell phone, with a built in tracking GPS!

To answer your question, NO I don't believe there is a direct link between On-Star and Direct TV's birds.
;)

[ 03-10-2003: Message edited by: FisHn2DMax ]</p>

[TraceF]

So far you seem to be the most knowledgeable re OnStar. What's your take? Can they tell if there's a juice box in the truck?

I am the second owner, I bought the truck with 14 miles on it. It was a lease truck that the company auctioned. Could I get the free OnStar promo?

[FisHn2DMax]

Trace,

Well.......I know On-star could see all my trucks operating parameters e.g., Temp, Voltage, RPM, even MPH. I had them run a diagnostic when my truck was acting up going down the interstate and had to pull over last week. They didn't see anything wrong and the problem went away? I personally think it's very technically possible to sense the Juice or any aftermarket box, but my gut tells me GM is NOT using that kind of data at this time? Why, I don't know unless they think it will open up a legal can of worms?

As a electronics engineer (now in medical devices), I do know any time a digital or analog modulated pulse width is sent out, and it is intercepted and / or modified ( Juice or any aftermarket box), a simple software algorithm could in theory be added to the ECM to "check" for modified pulse width changes by comparing feedback data from other engine parameter sensors against expected data. Also, the pulses or PCM's that are intercepted by the Box/Chip box are not passive i.e., the input pulses must be sampled and held into the box, the Box'es CPU then sends out modified pulse widths based on it's program and what it see's on the input side. This can create a few micro seconds of delay ( clock cycle delay) from the orginal pulses leading edge. The pulse clock cycle delay is how GM could be easily detected and set a "Flag" in the ECM! Another simply analogy is to imagine a straight pipe of pulsed air going down to the engine, then add a tank (the Box/Chip) in the middle of that pipe. Once the tank has enough air built up, the Tank/Box then repulses the air at a different rate on the output side of the tank. There will be a small delays initially filling the tank! The small delay won't effect the engine operation, but is easily detectable in the electronics world.

Not to fear, If GM was monitoring for Box use via On-star and with the other Tech diagnostics tools at the dealership, GM doesn't appear to be using it to try and wiggle out of any Warranty claims as of yet?

Has anyone on this board actually been denied or heard of anyone denied warranty coverage because GM used a purely electronic means to determine a Box/Chip was installed? I sure haven't heard of it!

I really think the only reason TLA was denied warranty is he admitted the use of an aftermarket box and he happened upon a Non- customer oriented dealer! If he pursues all his legal remedies, GM is going to have a real fight on their hands to prove it was the box that caused his failure. Yes, he will probably have to spend some of his own money to do it, but thats what you get for not thinking!

I've learned over the years to NEVER under estimate what can be done with electronics and to never put your trust in a Corporation!
It all comes down to is using basic common sense! When you install a box or any performance enhancing product you must assume some risk!

I've seen my share of idiots with New diesel trucks and performance mods/boxes totally abuse their New trucks! Once they blow something, they take them in for repair under OEM "warranty". What really gets to me, is they usually brag about it! It is this kind of reckless misuse of enhanced performance Boxes and it's associated costly behavior that is awakening the 3 giants!

Just my $.05

;)

[mackin]

FisHn2DMax

Excellent post all they way through.....

=&gt;"I've seen my share of idiots with New diesel trucks and performance mods/boxes totally abuse their New trucks! Once they blow something, they take them in for repair under OEM "warranty". What really gets to me, is they usually brag about it! It is this kind of reckless misuse of enhanced performance Boxes and it's associated costly behavior that is awakening the 3 giants! "
=====================
That stings......But it's
The truth .......


If one is concerned about Onstar,remove the antenna......Especially when your staging at the Christmas tree...... :eek:

Mopar puts warranty VOID tape on their pre 03 pump wire harness that is 100% detectable.....It's just a matter of time that GM will step up to the plate with some form of 100% detection.....Sensor monitoring isn't 100%, errors, miss readings do occur.....Nor is Onstar do to the fact of how many vehicles are they monitoring?? This is diagnostic at best,when YOU ask for it......

MAC

[Tractorhauler]

TLA,
Great thread!

Keep up the good attitude?

Keep us updated?
Are you going to have your truck moved to another dealer?

Personally, I leave the juice in place when I take it to my dealer. I do not care if he knows that I have it or not.
I figure that I will have to take care of anything if it happens.
I just can't get over how much the juice helps in towing 26K gross. Less downshifts, lower RPM'S. This juice, in my opinion will make my dmax last longer. I only use level 1 around town and tow in 2. Sometimes I go to 2 just to get that 30 hp thrust and grin.

Broker, I thinks the emails sent to you are absolutely out of bounds. You have been a real boost to this site and I look forward to more pearls from you in the future.
You are putting these trucks out on the cutting edge of performance and we would love to keep hearing from you.

Mark

[ 03-10-2003: Message edited by: Tractor hauler ]</p>

[TraceF]

Thanks FisHn-

Simple question, would a refleash clear the possible stored data?

:confused:

[ 03-10-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>

[Bulldogger]

Just spoke to owner of a local diesel shop where I picked up my ATS dual exhaust. Gave him the story on ECM storing codes with the juice. Stated they did R&D for chevy Duramaxes, before they ever hit the streets, tested all type of mods Van Aken, juice, bullydog products. First he said the duramax engine was designed to handle over 700 HP, and that they have all the latest scan tools,that the trucks do have black boxes so they can tell how fast you were going and how hard you hit the brakes and similar types of on board monitoring possibly for accident info. and prevention of law suits. Also stated that they absolutely can not "repeat" can not detect plug and play modules. Only way they will know you have one is to leave it on the truck or tell the Dealer you have it. Hope this helps. Dave

[Kennedy]

With a million or so subscribers, do you really think "Big Brother" has the time to monitor you via Onstar?

I'll say it again, if a failure occurs, there is a freeze frame record stored. It shows what the various controls (APP, ABS/brake system, MPH etc) were commanding, and what the various sensors are reporting back, but do NOT know if the signal is being bent, amplified, or modified in any way...

[sonofagun]

Broker,

Post the emails of the bad guys! That is outrageous behavior! Keep up the good work.

TLA:
Be nice put push them back. It is a question of who has to prove what. You told them about the box but it seems to me that they must prove it did the damage (just like a stuck injector and water might).

Good luck,
Bob

[MaxACL]

BROKER, Would you drop me a line. I have questions off subject. No... It's not hate mail.

Mike

g*ary.langford@mcguire.af.mil*
m*iketheboo@hotmail.com*

Remove the * :D

[JakeG]

From personal experience, removing the antenna makes no difference. They are hot items around here and I only put it on when on a long haul. So far I have never had a problem making a call with the antenna off.

[TLA]

Tractor Hauler - sounds a bit like you and I operate in similar driving conditions. There is no question in my mind that the continual OD to 4 to 3 shifting is detrimental to engine longevity. The OD lockout has helped some, as at least you can drop it down a gear, get the airflow up (which the MAF has to have to allow more fuel to generate more boost to generate more power) when you anticipate the need.
As far as I am concerned, there are important issues here that affect us all:
One is the fairness issue - after 2 requests, I still have not received an explanation of what happened and how it relates to anything I did or installed.
There seems to a great deal on inconsistancy in how dealers and service departments approach the use of after market products and their influence on warranty . Some sell power products, some recommend them, some sell trucks with them installed. Where does the buyer come out in all this?
Magnuson-Moss is supposed to provide consumers with some protection in cases like this by putting the burden of proof on the dealer or manufacturer to prove an after market product caused or contributed to a failure, but in reality, the system and the process put the burden on the consumers, and stacks the cards against them.
There seems to be some evidence surfacing that a series of these trucks might have potential problems with fuel injectors, and one result is catastrophic failure of the engine. I am attempting to research this issue, but have no hard information. And what about the filtration issue? We are told that Racor (who is a long standing and excellent producer of filtration products) designed and built a filter as specified by Bosch, but for whatever reason, it would appear to have insufficient ability to remove enough particles of a size that has caused damage in systems operating at a much lower pressure. Now I understand the introduction of Ford's new 6.0 had been marred by injection system problems, including fuel injectors. It is a similar system, operates at high pressures (26,000 psi) and I believe it even has 2 filters. Another injector problem can be created by our low sulphur fuel, as sulphur is a lubricant for pumps and injectors, and lack if it can cause lube related problems even in low pressure systems (6,000 psi).
I haven't given up, but I suspect that I have no real hope in getting GM to do much if anything in this matter, as it would seem that it can never be decided on its merits. Given the low success rate of consumers in cases like this, the costs/benefits of fighting it to its end may not add up. Especially when I add in the aggravation and time factors - I have a business to run. As for taking the truck elsewhere for repairs, I might do so because I would like to spend my money where I have had my service done for 15 years. When I walked in the dealership that has the truck, the Service Department was spotless (on Friday), and there were lots of happy faces - from my experience, good signs of an atmosphere that produces quality work.
On another matter, this monitoring stuff is really scary. Last time I looked, many of us live in United States, where we supposedly have Constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizure and against invasions of privacy. Far too many men and women have given their lives to defend those rights to see them eroded on a daily basis.

[sdaver]

tracef,
great pics(you know Im a birddog guy according to kennedy)wet t-shirts everywhere in daytona...rained about every day according to my buddies that went down..........nice jeep.....Ive broke lots of 44s........and several 60 front stub axles........personally I thing GM has a better chance of finding your juice from your sig than onstar..........I have onstar and use it regular for directions and reservations.........broker notify your provider maybe they can log an ip address.......tla the squeaking wheel gets the grease.........good luck


dave

[TraceF]

Thanks Dave for the comments. My next Jeep is gonna be a CJ7 with a GM SB stroker and a narrowed 60 rear unless I come across a Ford 9 cheap. If I could leave this one alone long enough I would tear into it but it's a big project on a CJ5, the rear drive shaft is a double knuckle now because of the spring over.

Bike Week was great, it probably rained somewhere everyday but we were lucky and only got wet a time or two briefly.

Daytona is a changin'. No more thongs except on the beach and zero tolerance for exposure. Lots of people are heading to the outlying areas for relief from politics.

Gilley's Pub 44 and Iron Horse were packed as always.

[More Power]

Because of concern shown here about Broker's email recent email problem, I wanted to remind everyone...

Email addresses for participating forum members are not available to the public, unless you post it yourself in a message or signature.

Also, be aware that "robot" crawlers prowl the net, along with spammers, looking for email addresses. We included code in this forum to limit or restrict robot crawlers, but we cannot stop the spammers and cannot guarantee all robots are kept out.

We discovered about a year ago that robots were accounting for about 1/3 or more of all TDP forum traffic. These robots open every link, every forum thread and all other related click-able links. The forum traffic the TDP forums generate is all user oriented (~1M page loads/month). There are a couple dozen robots that we know about, and that number is growing every month.

MP

[ 03-12-2003: Message edited by: More Power ]</p>