Towing Woes - Thinking About Trading

[Rebel_Horseman]

I went to haul the first major load of hay this weekend. Going up with only my 22+5 gooseneck flatbed the truck did fine...got 14.5 running 65 the whole way. Loaded the trailer (after the monsoon passed) and headed back yesterday. I pick up my hay in northeast Mississippi where there are a fair number of hills. The hay was stacked 7 rows high (which put 4 rows above the neck of the trailer and in direct wind). The total weight of the trailer and they hay came to around 13,500#. On flat ground the truck did OK but I wasn't overly impressed. On the slightest hill it would shift into 4th gear and would NOT come out of it until the backside of the hill. Also, the fastest the truck would go was about 72...I laid into it on a slight downhill stretch to see what kind of cajones my truck had. On several of the hills the truck even shifted into 3rd gear. Oh and the whole way I ran 55 and I go US 45 south to Meridian, MS then down I-59 through Hattiesburg to Slidell. At Slidell I get on I-12 west to Hammond. I only got 8.5 mpg on this return run.

My question is this. Considering the weight of the load, and the fact that it was stacked so high as to make it about as aerodynamic as the side of a barn, is this what I can expect from my truck towing? I'm sorry but 8.5 mpg is not acceptable in my book. I'm not too concerned about the performance. Would a programmer or the Juice or something help out by giving it more power so it wouldn'thave to work as hard to move the load? If this is what I can expect on all of my trips then I'm going to have to sell this truck and buy something else. Otherwise I'd be out of business shortly, especially with the cost of diesel what it is.

I need some help guys.

Reb [><]

[hoot]

You have to ask yourself one question.

If you trade, will you be better off?

I don't think so.

[Rebel_Horseman]

That is the very question I've been repeating over and over recently. I know I"ve got to look at the financial implications. I guess what I'd really like to know is whether I should take the risk of the $500 to $700 to get a programmer and hope that the truck will work better or should I cut my losses and try something else. I'm hoping to go talk to a guy I know tomorrow that deals with nothing but Powerstrokes and see what he has to say.

Reb [><]

[RVGuy]

Rebel Horseman,

I tow with the Juice. Its a Hot version and I use level 2 or 3 while towing. I also have an EGT gauge that I watch closely while towing.

I can attest that the Juice improves towing performance by several magnatudes. It allows the D/A to stay in higher gears before downshifting, thus improving mileage. Just keep an eye on the gas temps when pulling long grades.

If you are mainly interested in towing performance, the regular Edge should be fine for your needs.

I have no connection with Edge, I am just one of many happy customers.

[Brad Pelot]

All I can say, is that putting the juice on my truck lowered the horspower peak by several hundred rpm, and added a whole bunch of power.When towing it almost never shifts out of overdrive anymore. And I get slightly better fuel milage because of it. I typically tow on level 1 or 2, the difference is nothing less than astounding. The juice will make you smile ear to ear while towing. The other performance modules, programmers, etc. are probably excellent too.

[Black Dog]

Head to head towing tests have clearly shown GM Ford and Dodge diesel trucks to be similar in performance and economy. I don't know what you would expect to gain by trading.

[hoot]

---------------quote------------------
Head to head towing tests have clearly shown GM Ford and Dodge diesel trucks to be similar in performance and economy. I don't know what you would expect to gain by trading.
--------------------------------------

That is exactly what I meant in my previous post.

[Rebel_Horseman]

I'm looking at fuel efficiency. While they all may be able to tow the same trialer, one may have a better drivetrain setup. I guess my logic is that maybe one of the other truck make their power ina way that allows them to tow easier and more efficiently. If I do decide to trade, I will get a 6-speed for sure. I can't stand not beling able to get my transmission to shift out of 4th gear when I know dang well that it can run in 5ht without problem. I'm also looking at how much it would cost to upgrae my truck vs one by another manufacturer. A Ford chip is $400 vs $500-600 for something for my truck.

Brian [><]

[schnier]

I have to agree with these guys on this subject. With a box or programmer the truck is a rocket ship. Towing last year with one made all the differance in the world as far as not downshifting. I pull around 9,000 lbs and it holds fifth gear much better with enhancements. Go for the updates you will be very happy with towing performance.

[jjackson]

Rebel_Horseman, I would think that perhaps you should be seeing better numbers than what you reported...? I haven't added any performance enhancements (yet),but I do tow a 13K 5th wheel, and am getting close to 12MPG pulling through the Carolina's, etc...not all hills, but some good pulls.

I only have 4,500 miles, and normally only run around 60 mph. I thought I'd wait to see how my mileage does once I have 15 - 20K on it.

John

[Rebel_Horseman]

I guess I'm just thinking that I should have gotten better mileage out of my truck. Fuel consumption is what will prevent me from making money. So far the consensus is upgrades. I guess I'm going to start looking into a box or programmer of some sort.

I do think the height of my laod and the drag it caused ahd a lot to do with it. I ahve to haul cows in a few weeks and I'm going to see what my truck does then.

Brian [><]

[pinehill]

Reb,

I have to ask. Just what would your fuel mileage have to be (pulling the barn door) to make you feel better?

[Rebel_Horseman]

I'd like to see double digits. I'd be happy getting 11. My disappointment came when I was only going 55 and still only got 8.5 mpg. I'd like to get 11 mpg going 55 if possible. I'd go whatever speed I needed to get better fuel mileage.

Brian [><]

[schnier]

Something else that is a great investment is an a wind deflector. I notice with a wing on top of the cab, I can cruise much easier at 70mph than when the air deflector is off with just a ifth wheel comper. Also the hay might stay on the trailer better. The air resistance is a factor of square. So when you go twice as fast it (wind resistance) increases many times more than double. You will see almost every semi runs them on the highway.

[MountainMax]

If I'm reading you right, were'nt there some pretty stiff headwinds from the west/nw? Did you consider them? I think if you had that weight on a flat load vs. the tall load you would see a diff. I agree with Hoot. All said and done the big 3 don't have 1 truck that stands head and shoulders above the rest. If you need a boost on hills, consider propane. It will give you more power and may actually lower EGTs while doing it. So a performance product is more expensive,... I guarantee when the new ones come out for the new ford engine and the common rail Cummins they will be just as expensive. If you trade in, you will only come out down on the transaction. Taxes, title , license, depreciation and dealer profit will eat up any thing you might save in mileage if you realize any at all. Keep the Dmax. Add a little power, and keep a log of how it performs. I think you'll see you're doing alright. Adding performance to the truck you have will be cheaper in the long run. Maybe you should talk to Kennedy about letting it breath a little better. Good luck

[Dmaxin]

Just a thought, but i notice you have a 01 and was wondering if you have the latest computer updates for your truck? That might have somthing to do with the trans not holding 5th quit as well.
As far as mpg, I tow a 16x8 enclosed through some moderate terain, which weights probably half (or close) of what you were pulling and usually only get 11 to 12 mpg at 70mph. Like you said its like a side of a barn moving down the road at 60mph.
Get juiced and gauges and put the hammer down. You will never look back. :cool:
Matthew

[SoCalDMAX]

Rebel,

I've got a few thoughts on this subject.

1. I don't think a PSD or Cummins is any more efficient or will provide any better fuel economy numbers than a Dmax. I don't believe the 25mpg claims I've seen from some other sites. PSD owners I've spoken to personally tell me they only get 14-15mpg empty, less than 10 towing. It's easy to exaggerate on the web, much harder to pull off that exaggeration when you've got to pull in for fuel as much/more often than the other guy. ;)

2. You'll be losing comfort and ride, only to get a lesser tranny, engine, etc. The Allison is actually pretty efficient, especially for such a heavy duty auto. It appears to lose about 18.5% with 300hp, this is not a fixed percentage, so you would lose only a small percentage of any added power. A VW transaxle, by contrast is up in the 23% loss range.

3. A Juice or similar power adder will provide more power down at 1500-1700rpm, where you need it for towing and keep you in 5th more of the time than a stocker, but be realistic about how much power it takes to move that much load and aerodynamic drag up a hill at those speeds. Did you see anyone with a similar load pass you on the uphill portions? The power required to drag a load uphill is astronomical! Someone posted a website with a calculator, and the numbers were quite astounding! A big block gasser would still be behind you, gulping fuel at probably 5-6mpg.

4. The Allison takes a little finesse to handle, funny enough. As I'm going uphill, I use tow/haul and it might drop into 4th due to the steep grade. As soon as I crest the hill, I switch to normal mode and hit the throttle, it upshifts immediately. Then I switch back to tow/haul to take advantage of the grade braking feature. If you're coasting downhill and the grade braking is on and the engine is revving in 4th, my understanding is you're coasting, using minimal fuel and being in 5th has no advantage, but I may be mistaken.

5. The real issue with your fuel consumption is the speeds you're going with the load and aerodynamic drag. I'd say get a power module first, let the tranny get used to it for a bit, then tow in level 2 (with an EGT gauge.)

I'm only towing 7,00-7500lbs, but with the mtns I climb and the speeds I'm going, I'm not complaining about the 10mpg I'm getting. My friend follows me with his F350 with 460 gas motor, and gets 6mpg towing and 8 empty, so he tells me. He pulls in for fuel, I grab a burger... ;)

Regards, Steve

[crafty]

I know this load does not come near to creating the wind resistance that you had but last fall I pulled 9500 lbs (flat bed with a tractor & plow) on the 401 at 110 to 120 kph and I got 16.3 mpg (Imp Gal.). It was a straight run with no stopping but I felt that my truck did really well. A lot better than I thought I'd get with that load.
I've had no updates done but then I don't have the automatic to worry about. :D :D :D

[hoot]

BTW Rebel,

Over on thedieselstop, under "Towing and Hauling" a guy just posted this....

---------------------------------
My F-550 weighs 9000 lbs, 5th wheel weighs 15,000 lbs.While going up 6% grades will eventually slow to 35 mph.Is this normal?
---------------------------------

Does that make all PSD's similar? Be careful cause one experience is not the whole story.

[pinehill]

Reb,

As was mentioned above, if you had any significant headwind while pulling your load, it would account for a VERY large increase in fuel consumption. For example, since power required increases as the cube of speed, there would be 65% more power required at 55 mph with a 10 mph head wind, compared to 55 mph in still air. This difference might equate to 1.5-2 mpg.

And, for the best possible fuel economy, it was found by the early Dmax/Allison buyers that holding 5th gear as much as possible is absolutely necessary. The standard Juice, even at the lower power settings, is a great help in doing this. Depending on how much downshifting you were seeing, this could be worth 0.5- 1 mpg, or even more.

[hoot]

Rebel,

I noticed on thedieselstop your signature has this in it....

Work Truck: '99.5 F350 EC DRW, XLT, PSD, hand-shaker, muffler has disappeared

How does it do with the same load? Can you try it or is it not equipped properly?

BTW: If you do get a new 6.0 Ford, don't go away. Give us the details!

I also just remembered..... BROKER, the guy with the hauling business with all brands has one 6.0 Ford and so far his biggest complaint is poor mileage. 8-9 range. This guy also makes his living hauling and mileage is a biggy too.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>

[mtomac]

The worst I've ever gotten towing tall enclosed trailer 20000-26000 combined was 8 mpg (winter fuel) but I was doing 80mph into a headwind in MO. Example towing (20000 combined) w/juice: Heading south out of Louisville on 65 (big long 2-3 mile grade) I was in 4th gear gaining speed up the hill (watching the pyro 1200 degrees), the truck shifted into fifth, still gaining speed, so I backed off a little and still topped the hill at 75, no wonder cars and trucks weren't passing me. Get the Juice & some gauges and you'll never regret it.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Micheal Tomac ]</p>

[biker Wayne]

By comparison I pull a 9000# travel trailer that is 8.5 feet wide and almost 12 feet tall. I also haul a motorcycle in the bed of the truck, so the wind is coming over the cab of the truck and hitting almost all of the front of the trailer. I pulled last year in Michigan at a constant 70 mph (leaned into it going uphill to force it to downshift to 4th to maintain 70) and got 9.5 mpg. That was with running the AC as well.
Here is a suggestion. The front of the hay is not going to be very areo dynamic. Load that front of the gooseneck so that the top slopes up and back in the front. Then put a heavy tarp over the front and tie it down securely. You will loose only a few bails from the load, but you should create much less of a barn door in front. This could help mileage. Just a thought.

[Rebel_Horseman]

SO far ya'll have really made excellent points and ones that I'm taking to heart. Hoot, to answer your question, I've not tried the same haul with my work truck. The company I work fro has issued it to another employee and he uses it every weekend so I don't drive it nearly as much. I'm really mainly attributing my bad mileage to the wind resistance because there was a lot of it. I think the power department could definately use some help though. I've gotten all the updates done to my truck and it seemed to hold 5th gear for as long as it could. I really don't think that any one manufacturer has a better setup than the other and I know I'd end up getting screwed on a trade. Like MountainMax said, "If you trade in, you will only come out down on the transaction. Taxes, title , license, depreciation and dealer profit will eat up any thing you might save in mileage if you realize any at all." If I was going to trade I'm going to go for a used Powerstroke (there's not way I'm being a guinea pig with one of the new 6.0's).

Several guys over at The Diesel Stop have suggested the same as ya'll are saying...I need more power. Now comes the decision time. Propane vs. power box. I wonder what would be more economical. What can I afford? Which will have a greater return in the end. Propane costs money to use it whereas a box doesn't. Plus, I can't easily remove a propane kit if I do have to go to the stealer. Maybe I'll just get both and not worry about it. Oh and I have to have gauges so that I don't screw something up. Then if I do that I'm going to have to upgrade my trannie too. AH! Decisions, decisions. :D ;) tongue.gif

Brian [&gt;&lt;]

PS Thanks for all the help guys!

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Rebel_Horseman ]</p>

[MaxACL]

Rebel,

I haul Travel Trailers all the time and they run anywhere from 9-12,000 lbs and it's like pulling a parachute. My last calculations were 11.8 mpg. I have another 1000 lbs of diesel in the tank and a change of clothes in the back seat.

The only mods are the Amsoil air filter and their fluids everywhere. The juice and gauges are next.

BTW... the 11.8 mpg had 600 miles of the 4x4 engaged and 30 knots of crosswind. Sure like my ZF6

Mike
:D

[imported_]

Crafty...nice setup on the 5k hitch... i have the same one installed so i can switch between kingpin and ball type as well.... love the setup... where in canada do you hail from?

[sonofagun]

Rebel,

The Juice will definitely help. If you regularly pull tall loads a wind deflector will help too. I use an Aerowing. My 5th wheel is over 11' tall. the big difference in noticed with the wing was the change in wind resistance. I can pull the same speeds in a good headwind (as compared to no wind) in Colorado (going west and uphill all day long) and see no drop in fuel milege. Pre wing I couldn't do that without a substantial fuel penalty. I get 10 -11 mpg round trip from San Antonio to NE Utah. I travel at 65 -70 mph. Faster than this is where the MPG goes in the potty.

As the torque and HP war heats up we can swap in 2007 and get 500 HP, 1000# of Torque and 25 MPG to boot!!!!

Keep the truck,

Good luck,
Bob

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: son of a gun ]</p>

[JMJORDAN]

HELLO New guy here.
I think it was the aerodynamics that gave you the bad milage. Reason why? I once hauled a platform for my dad (a welding shop owner) made for PPG. The platform was made of I-beam and covered with metal grating. It was 8feet wide and 18 feet long. It stood 20foot high legs with 3 foot high railing. PPG was supposed to come and get it but something went wrong and they could not come get it. So I had to haul it about 10 miles to the plant. We laid down on its side on my trailer with platform deck facing foward and 18 foot lenght up. BARNDOOR! I towed it with my 95 Chevy 2500 454 5speed 4:10 gears. The deck was made of grating so I thought it would pull easy. Dad said it should way about 2500lbs. Everything went fine until i got up to about 50mph. In third gear standing on it on flat ground could hardly get to 55Mph! Milage I did not check but I know I used about half a 34 gallon tank to go 10 miles! So that equals about 4mpg! Moral of story aero is huge!
Buy a wind defecltor and a Juice box.
My 2 cents.

[Captain Mal]

Rebel,

Last January I had to deliver two fire safety trailers to San Francisco from Pittsburgh. Both trailers were identical 36 footers with a 12' 4" height. Both were boxes in the front and just awful to tow into the headwinds.

The other truck pulling with me was a Powerstroke that had a Super Chip and 4" exhaust along with dual overdrives. We took turns leading and both of us got a good feel for each truck. The Powerstroke averaged 7 mpg under awful conditions for 5 days, some of which we idled for hours to wait out storms. My Duramax averaged 8.5 mpg.

Our power characteristics were different but we agreed they ran about the same. At the end of this tow the transmission in the Powerstroke 'went south'. He got mad and traded the truck on a Dodge. In 8 months he again traded the Dodge and bought a small Kenworth.

When I tow 42ft. tri-axle units they have a slight angle at the front. My usual fuel mileage with them is around 11 mpg. Aerodynamics is a major issue and those weigh about 4,000 lbs. more than the shorter, box-like units.

Hope my experiences help.

[Viking]

There is a tremendous difference,in drag, between a load of stacked hay and a similar weight smooth side trailer.

[king D]

hte most dissapointing thing about the dmax to me is fuel mileage.my 2001 cummins would get 16.5 to 18 pulling 9000lbs and 26to 27 empty dat in and out.but i still like my dmax

[Kennedy]

What was round trip total fuel cost? What would 3 mpg towing have saved you? Would take a LOT of trips to save the hit incurred when trading.

I towed 17k stacked 13'2 in the air and was under 7mpg. This was pre-Juice. I typically see 9-11mpg towing...

[CPMac632]

I know fuel is high and I don't like it either but if you can't make a profit at 8.5 mpg you need to charge more. Also from what I have seen any of the power enhancers will make you happy with power and fuel mileage.

[BassinRVer]

I have the regular Juice box. Let me say i have a heavy foot and so far I have not gotten better fuel mileage with the Jiuce. I Hope to get better mileage with Juice and towing my 8000# travel trailer, but i have not towed with Juice yet. It seems your MPG is low. When I towed my 8000# trailer to Red River New Mexico and back I got 11 MPG. Around town I get 15-16. Hope this helps.

I have heard MPG increases with age!!!!

[BobNelson]

Lets look at this from an economics stand point. You mentioned considering a trade for a D or F.. Shift from the 22/5 to a slightly longer trailer, reduce the load height by two bails. Upgrade / trade in on a trailer is a lot cheeper than a truck trade in. Trailer is a full tax write off on your farm account. Not sure about the truck.

Seems almost all of the conversation leads to aero dynamics. Or, are you just trying to justify a juice purchase....... :D

[Lone Eagle]

Everyone sooner than later is going to run into a bad wind and hills at the same time. My worst mileage always comes bucking the wind. I would much rather pull a three mile long 6 % every now and then than run into a quartering head wind. I get to try the "Juice" towing for the first time in a couple weeks. I have no doubt it will tow better. Later! Lone Eagle :D

[Kennedy]

Reb,

I sent you a picture of my load. IIRC, I was down as low as 6.8mpg and 7.5mpg. This was pre-Juice days last spring. SoMn saw the stack and even rode with me to lunch. Wasn't the weight so much as the wind. At about 45mph it started taking over...

[cmtndmax]

Wind is the killer. Coming out of TX (pulling 24ft travel trailer with 88 1/2 ton 350 & 3.73 rearend)I got 6.8 mpg & after 20 miles with go pedal on the floor never exceeded 70 mph.

[Oongawah]

Hi Reb,

Something Michael Tomac hinted to was the winter fuel. We ought to consider that, as well as engine temps. Has it been real cold where you are at? I find my mileage drops if I don't use the grille cover under 50 degrees. When you get the juice remember that it doesn't kick in until the engine is warmed up. I've actually watched my engine cool way down when going down grades in the cold weather without the cover. Hope this helps, Chuck.

[fredw]

rebel: i as well haul gooseneck tri axle, last week did a 300 mile trip,-12 degrees celceus, hauling 12 1500lb round bales stacked two high or about 12 feet tall on the trailer, which is 4 feet off the ground, i now did not have a head wind or crosswind, but had a few hills with some nice gradual inclines, this is about a total weight of 28000 lbs, i can truly say the truck had a good load, but the very few times it shifted were far and few, i have the 110 vanaken bully, and it seamed the only time their was a shift was when i came to a sharp hill were the wastegate, did not catch up to the load that was put on from the quick sharpness of the hill,but most times it would catch up latter than shift up to final gear, i had my cruse set to 60 miles per hour and made 12.7 miles per gallon, i feel their is no other makes that can pull better with that milliage, 4" exhaust was a bonus to keep temp. down :D :D :D :D

[breeze hotshot]

Hey Reb
I hotshot for a living and use two different trailers.
18' And 30'
Like you I run empty one direction most of the time .
I try to keep under 2100 rpm when empty
and save a little on mileage that way.
At least when there's no D**fords. around pestering me.
Some days this truck pulls like a monster and others not so hot.
I think Allison has a lot to do with this.
When I'm not hauling I'm Taking kid to school 6mi. round trip at 35mph.
Trans. has to keep relearning.
I've gotten 13 mpg hauling 12,000 with little wind resistance.
And 11mpg at 6000 with tall load at 70 to 75 mph.
It seems to do best if I keep under 2100 rpms. no mater what I haul.
Anyway Good Luck and Motor safe.
Steve

[Rebel_Horseman]

I think it all comes down to a combination of things that I had going against me. First was the aerodynamics. Like John said, the truck did great below 50 and at that point the wind was such as to cause a problem. I was runnign winter blend fuel also and the temps were warm enough to run with the windows down. Third, the wind was kickign pretty good and I did have a bit of a headwind. Finally, the power department was in my opinion, lacking a little bit. On my next run, I'm going to lower the load a bit, as was suggested by another member, and I'm also going to fab me up some sort or wind deflector and see how that helps. Probably in a few months I can have enough beans saved to buy me some Juice or the new Diablo programmer or something. I think I was more shocked about the poor fuel mileage and thought maybe it was something wrong with my truck. Now that I see that with that load and conditions, my mileage was pretty much what ya'll were seeing too.

Reb [&gt;&lt;]

[crafty]

MaD MaX
I like that style of Hitch the best too. I haven't had much chance to use it yet but I'm hoping to buy a Gooseneck flatbed of my own in the next year or so. This truck handles that load very well.
I live about 90 miles North east of Toronto. My inlaws are from Powell River and I may even be out there this summer but we would likely fly out due to the time it takes to drive it.

Rebel
Don't give up on the truck. I think the suggestions given should help you make it work well enough. :D :D :D

[Kennedy]

While winter blend fuel is a factor, I wouldn't count on that too much. When fueling in the UP, at a Holiday station, there was a sign on the pump stating treated to

-10

[hoot]

Here's a quote BROKER just made on another site...


-------------quote----------------------------
We are coming up on 19,000 miles on our 03 f-550 6.0/ts and we cant get out of the 7-8mpg window while towing 20-23,000lbs loads.I believe the truck is spending to much time in the higher rpm band to get the job done.And i'll say she's broken in now. Calipers are a rattling on both fronts also.
Just curious if anybody noticed that the oil filter is a PITA to change.Why could they not have put it next to the tranny filter up front? She is going in next week for updates so will have them look at the brakes.Front windshield has a squeek in it during the 1-2 shift and the 2-3 shift,cant figure it out.I'll tell you the tranny bangs the gears like no other Ford we ever owned.Perfect for towing.

The D/A are running 8-11 mpg. 26000lbs gcvw
The D/6 are running 9-12 mpg. 26000lbs gcvw
The Psd/6 are running 7-11 mpg. 32000lbs gcvw
The Psd/A are running 7-10 mpg. 32000lbs gcvw
The 6.0/TS is running 5-8 mpg. 32000lbs gcvw
-------------------------------------------------

[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>

[MountainMax]

Reb; It comes down to this. If you had a Ford or A Dodge and asked the same question on their forums would you get the same kind of fraternal support as here? I doubt it. That makes it worth sticking with the Dmax right there. :D End of debate :eek:

[Rebel_Horseman]

Well to be perfectly honest, I did post this same thread over on teh Ford site. Hoot, you know as well as I do about what happened to that forum there. It started out with many guys there telling me the same thing as ya'll are...get a power box and quit whining. Then it delved off into a flame war with members telling other members they are stupid and ignorant for their towing techniques. This all came because of one guy, in replying to my question, saying that he hauls 31,000# with his F350 PSD (he's got a long list of add ons and doo-dads that I'm not going to post). Other members quickly chastised him as being careless of other drivers and not knowing how to tow with his truck. Long stoy short, my post about my problem turned into members fighting about what they thinnk one person should do with his truck and was quickly moved to a general forum. I was NOT impressed. The level of civility over there deosn't even compare to here. I will be saving the money for a power add on within the next month or 2 and I'm keeping the truck.

Thanks for that support folks. And thanks to everyone for keeping it civil.

Reb [&gt;&lt;]

[NWDmax]

Good for you Reb,we want to see you as happy as we all are.Its by far the best truck I've ever owned.
Blake :D

[Burner]

Hoot,

Not to flame ya, or nut'n, but aren't them fErDs running with SIX THOUSAND MORE PONDS? I would think that fuel milage would suffer adding that weight to any of the big three diesels. Heck, let me see..... Our truck = 6,000 lbs and theirs = 7,000 lbs. Gross weight of Dmax, 26k, minus truck, 6k, = 20k of weight, right? Ok, PSD gross is 32k minus the 7k of the truck = 25k of weight, right? Let me get this right. Brokers is upset that his PSD, pulling 20% more weight, is getting "1" MPG less than his D-Max? :confused:

--- I didn't get the point?????


Burner

[hoot]

--- I didn't get the point?????

That's a good point. I didn't really look at it that way, just cut and pasted the numbers.

I guess he figured compared to the other similar trucks, with the newer technology he would at least get better mileage than them, not worse.

This is what bothers him.....

The Psd/6 are running 7-11 mpg. 32000lbs gcvw
The Psd/A are running 7-10 mpg. 32000lbs gcvw
The 6.0/TS is running 5-8 mpg. 32000lbs gcvw :eek:

[BROKERS]

The GM's (65-80mph stays with traffic flow)run alot faster than the Fords(55-70mph).I was more or less complaining about the 6.0/TS.

[Burner]

I can see that the how one

[Rebel_Horseman]

:eek: :confused: tongue.gif

Burner, I don't know what you just said but it sounded good. I'll have to take your word on that one. LOL!

Reb [&gt;&lt;]

[WillowCreekStable]

Burner - camless engines are coming!

http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20000414S0050

Imagine the possibilities; we are excited by the electronic tuning we can do now. It

[txguppy]

Hey Rebel, just another observation. You stated that a "monsoon" had just passed. As we all know wet hay weighs alot more than dry hay. You could have easily had 50 percent more weight than you guestimated, 13.5K. That's 20+K + vehicle weight close to 8K. That's nearly 28K !! and into a head wind to boot. That's alot to ask for our D/A's. I think 8.5 in stock configuration is not that bad, and if you average your round trip you are still @ 11.5mpg.

Just my 2 centavos,
txguppy smile.gif

P.S. Just head on down to Mardi Gras and forget your troubles... :D :D

[Rebel_Horseman]

If I head down to Mardi Gras, that would be just the begining of my troubles. :eek: :D ;)

Reb [&gt;&lt;]

[Tractorhauler]

Rebel,

I just read the posts for the first time and I think that the people on this site are doing you more service than a dozen GM dealerships.
Bravo to them all!

For my 2 cents, I have towed pre juice and post juice with everything from 20 K gross to 33 K gross and there is no comparison in towing.
The juice adds so much to driving, and not just mileage. I believe that the juice keeps the Blood pressure down(not shifting to 4th every other hill), safer to get out of jams, safer because it keeps you out of jams, and just overall adds to the better driving experience.
It is hard even to quantify but I know I can drive further towing with the juice and feel fresher than I was without juice.
I did have one experience towing a large newer flat faced 4WD JD tractor with a barnside effect and averaged 9 mpg in a headwind for over 1200 miles but I could go as fast as the roads would let me. That was dissappointing but I am not sure any other diesel would have done any better and may have done worse.

Happy Stress free driving,

Mark

[Bigwheel]

Alright Guy's:
I have two friends that are Dodge cummins freaks. I also have a Ford PowerJoke dreamer friend, but I'm the only Duramax in the group. My one friend pulls his 33 foot camper with a 1999 Dodge Cummins, it has 160,000 miles on it, he has had a couple of things fixed after 100,000 miles, it's an automatic extended cab, but he has NEVER had any problems pulling his camper totally loaded and running over the higest grades, his engine has never once let him down. I don't understand why some people on here post that they try pulling for the first time with their D-Maxes and they either have different expectations, or problems. I took my other friends new 2003 Cummins Dually out last weekend, and I can only say that I could take off with more power that I've ever felt before, but not with my Dmax, it's totally different, the only point I guess I'm making is, are we to beleive in our investments that our aluminum head engines are Going to last or put up with the elements and not to warp new engines??, I'm not starting anything here, just considering changing to Dodge, because I've seen the POWER without the Juice, Edge, without The LP Gas, nitros, and so on. I don't get why my Dmax can compete just plain stock with the Cumons. Sorry if some don't like what I've said, but you have to test drive a new Cummons to hear that they are quieter than the DMax, and a lot more powerful too. :rolleyes: :confused: :(

[glclary]

Big Wheel and the others,

This is not a flame job or any attack on anybody's opinion, but:

If liked the Dodge truck better than my Chevy, I would trade.

If I had serious concerns that the Duramax would melt and leave me stranded, I would trade it.

If the Chevy didn't have enough power to do what I want, I would trade it.

If I decided to trade, I wouldn't let my internet friends or anybody else, (except my wife, hehe) talk me out of it.

I like my '01 Silverado better than any car or truck that I have owned. It does exactly what I want and does it well.

I have wasted more than my share of money trading cars and trucks and each time, I justified the trade with some real but mostly imagined problems. That was okay, it wasn't anybody else's business.

In the last 10 years or so, I have had 2 new Fords, 2 new Chrysler products and 2 new Chevies. I had some trouble with all of them, including the current one. (And one new Mazda which has never been in the shop except for routine stuff.)

If you like the Dodge, go for it! Enjoy!

My second choice would be Ford. The Cummins is good but I just don't like Dodge trucks.

Best regards,

Lee

[ 03-04-2003: Message edited by: glclary ]</p>

[hoot]

It's nice having three choices isn't it. And when they get really close in performance, it gets really hard to decide where to spend your money.

At this point, quality and reliability is my desire. That's why I drive what I drive.

[a64pilot]

OORAH

[Bigwheel]

I do agree with you guy's believe me, I'm going to spend 650 bucks to get a fifth wheel hitch installed in my new d-max, a tuck-under hitch, then the real test will be known how this thing does right up a hill totally stock. I just get confused with really nice people on here which I respect and appreciate their expierences, opinions, and suggestions on what they have been doing for working on their trucks, and helping others work on theirs. I own a 93 chev silverado, gas, with 125 K miles on it and it still runs great. I will always be a chevy man, I love my new 2002 D-Max a-lot, I just don't want to spend the money on a fifth'wheel hitch and find out that I need some juice to make it par with the others, it's not making any sense here. Is everyone being able to tow 30 foot trailers up pretty high grades with-out added help??. Maybe my new D-Max is not running the way it's suppose to, when I'm going 50 or 60 mph down the highway, and punch'it, it takes it a little bit to react, with'out a trailer, seems like a delay in acceleration. Thanks for your help & opinions!.
:rolleyes:

[kerry witherspoon]

Well with my duramax it towes my fith wheel and boat just fine. My best freind sells dodges and also pulls a fith wheel and boat as well,so we decided to compare we both pulled our own trailers following each other,then he drove my truck i drove his,then i pulled his trailer he pulled mine,our concensous was each pulled equaly well but in its own way,so we more or less decided that its up to which brand you like and your style of driving,yes i have a preditor not for the benifit of more power for towing,but to bring my youth back and see the faces of people when my truck beats them. Most here have as i call it the tim taylor syndrom love more power not because we need it but it makes us feel real good to have it.

[SoCalDMAX]

Bigwheel,

So you're saying that you've driven your friend's Cummins, and you feel that under load it has plenty of power, yet your '02 Dmax feels like it has a delay when you punch it on the fwy? I think they all have a delay to an extent, that's the nature of turbodiesels.

I don't doubt your observations, just trying to figure out how this could be. The Dmax is rated at higher power output, and unless his is running unusually strong and/or yours is a little low, I don't see why they would feel like that.

I haven't looked at the hp/torque curves for the Cummins, perhaps it reaches it's peaks at a lower rpm, making more of a difference at fwy speeds? Perhaps his is geared differently, like 4.10 perhaps?

I do know that owners of all 3 brands pretty much dislike Dodge's build quality (or lack of.)

The true test is to get a regular trailer with 10,00lbs or so. Let your buddy pull it over a fixed distance uphill, and time it. Hook it up to your Dmax and let him time you. I'm pretty sure you're gonna beat his time, despite what your initial impressions are.

If for some reason his does beat yours, you can always add a power module. If you don't want to do that, then I suppose you might be happier with another truck. I love mine, but obviously there are enough people who prefer the other 2 to keep them in business, so there's something for everyone.

I'd really try some sort of test if I were you, to get to the bottom of this, somehow it just doesn't make sense.

Good luck, Steve

[glclary]

Big Wheel,

I don't tow the big loads that some of the guys do but here's my experiences:

Just got back from a trip to Florida towing our 9500 lb tagalong camper. Average mileage towing was about 13.5 mpg. Cruise control on 72 most of the way.

Saluda Mountain on I-26 just inside North Carolina is probably 7 or 8 per cent grade for about 5 miles. I can top it with the camper at 65 mph, no problem.

When I stomp the pedal at 55 or 60, there is a delay while the turbo "spools up" then off we go.
It's really different than a gasser, ain't it?

About a month ago, I got The Juice. I tow in level 1. Level 2 for hauling off the trash. The reason I got it was not due to lack of power. Around here in the foothills, the roads are like roller coasters......up and down, up and down. Cruising at 60 towing the camper, the Allison shifted from 5 to 4 some and it annoyed me. Now it almost never downshifts at highway speeds. . Again, it was never about lack of power.

Get your hitch on and hit the road. You'll either love it like me or trade it for the Dodge......hehehe

Regards,

Lee

and to A64Pilot...every good oorah is followed by a "Semper fi!"

[ 03-04-2003: Message edited by: glclary ]</p>

[Bigwheel]

Kerry, Steve, Lee:
Thanks for the input!, You gave me a better perspective to compare this to, Steve you pretty much nailed the Cummins as to the torq at a lower rpm, I guess I've been under the impression here that a-lot of people here use some chip or juice to help with some lower than expected towing situations, and after reading what you all posted, this will help me sleep better tonight. I'm getting my 5th wheel tuck'under hitch installed in a week, then getting a 10,000 lb trailer and doing some timed tows over a distance, and I will admit that I'm a new'bie at this and it's the reason I'm a member here. I took my buddies new 2003 Cummins for a test spin to just check it out, I'm not into giving up on my new 2002 DMAX, I love it a-lot, & I'm deffintetly not expierenced enough, and I should have done some testing to verify my lack of concern with tow ratings. My friends new Cummins get's really good milage, right on with mine, really quiet, but Dffinetly not BUILT, and as NICE as my DMAX!!, really cheap quality. I guess the only concern I will keep aside from this is that I need to be less concerned of my guarentee vs overheating, meaning with all this warranty stuff going on, we ourselves are playing with Chevy's guarentee that these Aluminum head engines will last.
I'm in this for the long haul.

Oops, I forgot to ask, am I doing harm by leaving my truck in the garage most of the week, I'm not using it every day, I use my older chev to and from work, I use this for driving out of town, and for fun, maybe I'm doing more harm than good letting it sit around.?? Just a thought....
I greatly appreciate your info and help!. Thanks!
Chad

[Bobcat698]

Isn't "Cheap-Quality" an oxymoron ;)

[mtomac]

don't forget the hd rams are built in mexico too

[a64pilot]

Reb,
One thing that I forgot to mention. You are towing with Cruise control on aren't you? The reason that I ask is that with cruise control on is the downshift is inhibited for some time interval. This inhibit seems to allow the turbo some time to spool up and build power. Therefore the tranny sometimes doesn't have to downshift to hold speed. One technique is to set the cruise control at 30 mph or some other low speed while you control the speed manually at whatever speed you desire.
Sorry if I offened anyone with the OORAH , I'm not a Jarhead myself. I guess as a retired ARMY guy I should have said HOOAH. ;)

[glclary]

a64pilot......oops I figured you for a jarhead pilot or somethin......I bet you know this but when two jarheads meet, the first one says "oorah" and the second follows with "semper fi".....I've been out for 34 years and I still get an oorah once in while.....

Have a nice week,

Lee