Why are these injectors really failing?

[Diesel Crat]

All these injector failures make me nervous even though the poll showed only 13% having failure problems.

What exactly is failing with these injectors and since GM has sent out the warranty extension letters, then why are those with performance mod's getting hassled for warranty coverage?

My 02 has 33K miles now. I have experienced both the "Lose of tranny or TC prime" and the "Low RPM surge" in both drive and reverse although no low oil pressure, smoke or rough idling.

Low RPM surge? Is it a tranny and TC thing or an injector failure thing or possibly both?

I wanted to put a 4" exhaust, AFE Filter and Edge Juice w/Attitude on but am now starting to wonder with all of these injector issues listed on the forum.

Are my injectors gonna go? Who knows but does anyone know exactly why they fail and what's specifically failing on them?

More importantly is this a manufacturer's defect and is its failure rate caused or enhanced with the use of power modules and other performance goodies? My gut feel is power chips aren't the culprit but do they enhace the problem?

I'd like to be armed and ready with information ammo when I visit my dealer next week for an oil change.

In the know Diesel guru's... Please educate my ignorance.

Thanks...

[letsgo]

go to SEARCH and type in FUEL INJECTORS or FUEL FILTERS there is about 50 topics in each title that will explane all the questions asked.

good luck

[saywhat]

A few members have reported that their injectors went south,never did figure what kind of failure that is.Have read that the injector houseing cracks leaking fuel into the crankcase,this would probably the easiest failure to identify.Also have read of erosion in the injector,guess that would let too much fuel into cylinder.Would love to read an indepth article by a creditable expert as to the various types of injector failures,symptoms,causes and if the pilot injection on the Duramax is a factor on some failures.

[James S]

Hey There,

I'm probably going to get chewed out for this, but this is my oppinion. I think that ninety percent of these injector failures are because of power boxes, or people driving the truck to agressively. I have a four dual exhaust, and drop-in air filter, and have not had a problem with injectors or anything else for that matter. I drive normally in town, and at about sixty-five to seventy miles an hour on the highway. People are being denied warranty work, even with the extended coverage on injectors, BECAUSE OF THE POWER BOXES, TURBOS, TRANNY UPGRADES, etc! Some vary picky dealers will even deny warranty work with a four-exhaust or drop-in air filter for that matter, and some are okay with it. It all depends on the dealer, but people who buy power boxes/programers, have to realize that they run the risk of being denied warranty coverage, and cannot start complaining about it afterwards. They knew what they were getting into, when they bought the power box. Moderators, throw me off if you want, but with all due respect, it's vary frustrating when people come on here, upset because they are being denied waranty coverage, when they are having injector problems, or blowing injectors, cracking cylinders, etc, when their signiture indicates that they have a power box on there truck. HOWEVER!!!, for those people who have stock trucks, who are having injector problems, that's another story, and they shouldn't be having these problems and should get full warranty coverage. In saying this though, I would say, ninety percent of the trucks on this site are not stock, and have some kind of power enhancing device on them. This is just my personal oppinion.

[quadrunner500]

You might be right James, but why would GM be sending out letters to 2001-2002 owners alerting them to cracks in injector bodies and ball seat erosion, while supposedly offering extended warranty for covered failures?

I didn't have a black box or an injector problem in 46,000 miles but sold it anyway on the belief of not if but when. I could have been wrong, but perception is reality. And right now, the perception is bad injectors for some.

I feel GM has not stepped up to accept full responsibility. I believe they KNOW they have a problem with these injectors, and rather than do the right thing which would be to recall all the affected models and give them "durable" dura-"max" injectors they expected when they purchased it, rather than a piece of paper saying we'll deal with it if you have a problem while we're still agreeing to fix it.

[Diesel Crat]

The poll clearly shows 60% of us voted that we were stock. 13% show they have had injector issues. As I believe it was asked in another topic it would be nice to no how many of the 13% have the power boxes.

Either way, that doesn't explain the letter from GM and those with stock trucks having injector problems. It's obvious from the GM letter that the injectors were poorly made or made softer than recent ones, etc. but do the enhancements cause the injectors to crack even sooner or the seats to erode even faster?

BTW James. I haven't made any changes from stock (only considering it) so I'll assume you weren't referring to me in your rant. I was hoping someone could chime in if they had evidence and knew why they were failing. No offense but I don't buy your rant about power boxes and injector failures when GM clearly knows there's a problem as evidenced by the warranty extension letter that I and thousands of others received from GM. Now, if the power boxes cause already defective parts to fail sooner, then that's a different story. If I find this to be true then yes I would be taking a proven failure and putting it on my truck. As it stands, until we know more, there can be no verdict on power boxes VS premature injector failure.

Hopefully, the experts will comment with some evidence or past exeriences that will help us all make a more educated decision on how we drive and or modify our trucks. smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

[letsgo]

Obviously you did not find the reference to the defective alloys used in the manufacturing of the (NEW TYPE INJECTORES) that were installed in the 2001 and the 2002 6.6 LB7 ENGINES. As a result the injectors have been redesigned not rebuilt.

good luck

[koolgt]

u guys really cant beat down on GM for this, we dont make em, its bosche's baby, we install em, GM tries to make good of something they had no control over

[OC_DMAX]

koolgt wrote: u guys really cant beat down on GM for this, we dont make em, its bosche's baby, we install em, GM tries to make good of something they had no control over

I'll take a small exception to this. The majority of the people who own DMAX equipped GM vehicles do not know anything about the DMAX engine, let alone that Bosch makes the fuel injection system for these trucks. The only thing they know is they have purchased a GM product with a DMAX engine. When there is a design defect or quality control problem with the fuel injectors, it is GM that takes the hit. It is their reputation at stake, not Bosch's.

GM needs to step up to the plate (along with their subcontractors /part suppliers) and make whatever changes are necessary to fix these injector problems. GM ultimately has direct control of this, after all Bosch is a major part supplier for this engine (I would guess Bosch has supplied at least $1 Billion in parts to date for the DMAX). With this much money at stake, GM can have a huge influence over Bosch.

[FormulaPro]

James,

I would have 100% agreed with your assessment of the injector failures and likelihood that power boxes are the cause for many of the failures until my 100% stock 2002 with 65K miles filled up with fuel in the crankcase! Fortunately, I got injectors replaced in 12 days miraculously at a dealership in Massachusetts.

GM has admitted there is a design issue and I am 100% convinced it is only a matter of time before it happens to a high majority of Duramax owners. I change my oil every 4K and filters every 10K miles. I did not use Cetane or other similar fuel additives.

Mark

[R Hood]

I believe that a failed injector is directly responsible for the hole in my piston on the same (#6) cylinder.
The brain trust of a dealer I'm stuck with can't get it through his thick skull that a leaking injector (his diagnosis) can cause an overfuel situation, leading to excess heat, etc.
I do have a Banks Stinger TLC installed and of course they are trying to blame that as the cause.
To thier credit, Banks has been extremely helpful in providing technical info which refutes this as a possiblity.

[letsgo]

You mean a LEAN fuel mixture will burn the piston head!!!

good luck

[R Hood]

Just the opposite with a diesel.

[floridadmax]

Guess Bosch would be the one to point finger at. GM is doing a good job as far as I can see in dealing with this. Never easy to supply replacement parts in volumn for a problem till you find the problem so no instant fix. Guess some people just like to be able to blame others for problems with out knowing the real truth. Goes something like this. Truck is built and sent to new owner. They drive it hard or easy or how ever they want. Truck brakes and they send it back. Dealer find problems and fixes it only to have more of the same. Gm steps in calls Bosch and they check it out. 8 months to two years pass and GM tells bosch step up the redesign of the injectors cause all the 2001 and 2002 are getting to the 70000 mile range and people are getting upset their $45000 truck is broken. Guess we never made a mistake or relied on other people to do something and had out backside bit off. Its getting better. I know some dealers are stupid and some people are fighting to get engines replaced etc. But over all GM has tried to make us happy.
OK I also am waiting for the injectors to be replaced as I write this. I understand.

[KenZ]

4 weeks today since I took my truck to the shop for injector failure. Got a call late yesterday afternoon and said the parts should be in today. smile.gif I guess one good thing is that with the gas rental they gave me, I haven't had to pay for $2/gal diesel. Not looking forward to that. I did leave it with a full tank which was cheaper 4 weeks ago.

Some thoughts on reflection:

When I got the truck, I knew from the diesel page that there was a running change made to the injectors when the truck was being built. New design was harder metal or something to that effect I was hoping I got the new injectors, but when I saw the build date, I knew I had the old style and have basically been waiting for failure. Built in October 2001. I think I missed the new design by several weeks.

It appears that these injectors--from other post, are failing in the 60-80K mile range. Some sooner, some later. But those with 2001 and 2002 in the lower mileage range should be prepared. I don't think the fuel filter and change frequency or aftermarket products have anything to do with these failures. There was a product problem and I would say that most if not all early trucks will see these failures. If there is a poll, it should be to find out if any of the new design/improved alloy injectors have failed.

Unlike some others, I had no codes set, smoke, or loss of power. One thing I noticed came to mind yesterday when a duramax was by me at a light and I noticed how quiet the engine was. I remember mine being that way when I first got it. I think slowly it got louder (due to the injector failure?) I remember thinking in the past couple of months that it seemed as loud or maybe a little louder than some powerstrokes I met at the fuel pumps. I guess I had attributed that to variances in the fuel. Maybe not. I should know when I get it back if it is quieter or not.

So even if the actual fuel in the oil happened within a day or two, the problem may have been manifesting itself in a lessor way for a couple of months.

Good luck to all that have these problems. I hope you get a rental and that the delivery problem continues to improve. I hope we all get a good mechanic!!

[lookin2buy]

I agree with Flordiadmax, to some extent. I don't have a DMAX yet so I may not have any room to talk, but what the heck.

I believe GM is trying to correct the problem and is working closely with Bosch. The only reason I believe that is because the DMAX equipped with the Allison Transmission is the best thing that has happened to the GM truck line. Believe me GM doesn't want to lose the truck buyers due to faulty injectors, etc. So will the old design deter me away from buying that year of truck?? You bet your ass it will! I see all the headaches you people are having in dealing with the dealers, getting a rental car from them.

To me I'll wait. :(

Until then Happy DMAXIN ;)
Brad

[koolgt]

yes u are right GM is working very hard right now, and we are making so many engines bosch is having a hard time keeping up, i guess they cant work sundays in germany its illegal lol..but they know that if GM said bye bye, that would be a heavy hit to bosch so they want to keep us happy:)

[Spartus]

If they redesigned the injetors, then why did my 2003 just need TWO injectors several weeks ago? My build date was Dec. 2002. A guy I work with just had all 8 on his 2003 replaced also, after a no start issue.

James, if you KNEW anything about PCM/computer programming you would KNOW that adjusting injector PULSE WIDTH would not cause a failure. Adjusting pulse width just tells the injector to stay open a little longer.. Telling an injector to stay open longer will not cause it to crack...

90% of the power boxes people on here use, mainly adjust timing and pulse widths...

Now those that raise fuel rail pressure, that's a different story...

[lookin2buy]

If I remember correctly the new injectors didn't get changed until GM came out with the LLY engine, which would just happen to be a year and one half later, after your truck was built (Dec. 2002). So you fall under the same cat. as the rest of the injector problems. SOL

[KenZ]

from Dmaxallitech in 2003

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DURA-MAX3:
Is there a difference in 01 injectors and 03 injectors. I thought they were the same...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Depends on who you ask, The are the same but different
The early injectors use a softer metal in the needle and seat, they have since gone to a hardend needle and seat in a bout the 02 model year and all replacment injectors have it. I have verified this through GM field engineers and area reps. NOT a rumor.

[OC_DMAX]

The hardend needle and seat would improve the erosion problems. I do not believe this addresses the "cracked" injector bodies. From what I have read, cracked injector bodies are still a problem in 2003.

[SHOPMAN426]

Sounds like more of us need to pay more attention to this issue. I have read some of the injector comments and really haven't given it much thought. After reading all the latest points this evening, I feel this could become a very big issue down the road. Like KenZ my truck has a build date of Aug. 2nd 2001. At this time I have around 13,000 miles. I did recieve the letter on the injector warranty, but is it based on miles only or is a limit buy years also. I guess I need to read the letter again. What bothers me the most is the thought of my rig not lasting as long as it was marketed. I will be following this thread more closely.

Shopman426.
Mike. :confused: :confused: :confused:

[lookin2buy]

Shopman426 is right. Ya'll do need to be paying more attention to what's going on with the injectors, since there is a known problem with them. The web sites i posted really do make a lot of sense , and should be looked over by everyone

[SHOPMAN426]

It's too bad that we probably will never see a recall. If it isn't link to someone getting hurt or the possibility of someone getting hurt they just don't seem to care. I know it would be very costly for GM to step up, but in the long run they would reap the rewards. The direction that GM is moving on this problem don't give me a good reason to buy a GM next time around. Time will tell, or should I say miles.

Shopman426.
Mike.

[SHOPMAN426]

I guess that came off a little harsh. I do truly love this truck. I don't get to drive it that much, but when I do it is heaven. It would be nice to have a little reassurance from GM. I sure wouldn't want to be on a trip pulling a heavy trailer and have to figure out how to get things home.

Shopman426.
Mike. :eek:

[20050518|4|000086|000000|68.226.176.104]

My 03 got 8 new injectors 3 weeks ago... only 35K on the clock. No power boxes and I've had a megafilter on since 10K, change my oil every 3-4k with filter. I have a 4 in. exhaust and air filter, but that is about it. I don't beat on my truck. Some of my injectors were cracked, others were ok; but it was starting hard so i took it in. Oil level did not increase at all. The dealer was great, gave me a gasser 04 chevy truck for the month it was in and swapped the oil with synthetic and a filter. God, I hope its fixed...

[G. Gearloose]

Originally posted by koolgt:
u guys really cant beat down on GM for this, we dont make em, its bosche's baby, we install em, GM tries to make good of something they had no control over With that mentality, if you outsource enough of the truck's parts, GM wouldn't have to back it up at all. It doesn't float.

Choosing to outsource doesn't relieve responsibility.( I'm talking corporate quality and logistic decisions, not the grunt fixing the trucks)

GM was not smart to not have a second source. and they should be all up inside hammering bosche.

We supply automakers with components, and if they have a failure and they say jump we say 'how high' or else.

[koolgt]

Originally posted by G. Gearloose:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by koolgt:
u guys really cant beat down on GM for this, we dont make em, its bosche's baby, we install em, GM tries to make good of something they had no control over With that mentality, if you outsource enough of the truck's parts, GM wouldn't have to back it up at all. It doesn't float.

Choosing to outsource doesn't relieve responsibility.( I'm talking corporate quality and logistic decisions, not the grunt fixing the trucks)

GM was not smart to not have a second source. and they should be all up inside hammering bosche.

We supply automakers with components, and if they have a failure and they say jump we say 'how high' or else. </font>[/QUOTE]believe me they have hammered boshce and you are correct they should have secondary companys to go to, and they do but not for certian items, u cant replace bosch with a generic brand, but like every other part on the duramax we dont make it in house, we mill and machine, but dont make the actual parts, it cant be GMs fault though they have stood behind there products, thats why with the old injectors LB7 they extended the warranty to 200k miles, they aknowledged there was a problem, and yes its incovenient, but its better than shelling out the money to fix it, id rather just wait, and most the time GM or any automaker as a matter of fact doesnt know theres a problem, until its to late, most the times there found inhouse, but GM cant help for other companies problems, no automaker can, sometimes u just gotta be understandable, oh well now im just rambling on, oh well the next duramax will fix all those woes
:D :eek:

[MAV]

I sold my 01 Dually with 136,000 and that had one injector replaced at 95,***. I heard the guy that bought it had injectors go out on it 400 miles later. Glad I sold it. It had the stock fuel filter system. I just traded my 01 GMC in. It has a CAT filter installed and it still had an injector stick and knock like crazy. I shut if off and restarted and it stopped. I also ran FPPF Total Power in every tank but not from the very start. I didn't want to deal with injectors again so its gone. GMC had 86,000 miles.

[Buck]

Originally posted by koolgt:
oh well the next duramax will fix all those woes
Meaning the LLY right? Or is something even better coming?

[dmaxalliTech]

First, I disagree with anybody thinking that aftermarket stuff is killing these....

Dont believe it at all. Proof? Ask Mike Tomac nearly 100k on his 02, runs 11's and daily driven, to this day, balance rates are all less then 2.0 and truck runs flawless. No add on filters, no additive. Just a dose of NOS once and a while :D

Here is a good look at what an LB7 injector looks like broken down..

The tip of the ball point pen is pointing to the "ball" of the "ball and seat" portion of the injector, it really is that small

injector (http://www.gmdieseltech.com/inj1.jpg)