Look at all this mud that was sucked into my turbo

[c5dura]

I finally got my truck back from the body shop. Drove it home and took off the K&N filter and tube. Here are some pics of the mud that was sucked in when I ran into the ditch.

The jpegs are named descriptively. I'll start from the filter and work my way to the turbo:

http://www.cstone.net/~dk/K&N_Filter_Outside.jpg

http://www.cstone.net/~dk/K&N_Filter_Inside.jpg

http://www.cstone.net/~dk/K&N_Tube_Filter_End.jpg

http://www.cstone.net/~dk/K&N_Tube_Turbo_End.jpg

http://www.cstone.net/~dk/Turbo_Inlet.jpg

http://www.cstone.net/~dk/Turbo_Blades.jpg

Here is where the K&N is located. Notice that I took out the "base plate".

http://www.cstone.net/~dk/K&N_Filter_Mount_Location.jpg

Here is a pic of the nice scratches the dealer put in my radiator when installing my new Power Steering Pump.

http://www.cstone.net/~dk/Radiator_Scratches.jpg

And finally here is a pick of the front of the truck with the front end off so I can clean up all the mud that is still there.

http://www.cstone.net/~dk/Truck_&_Shop_Shot.jpg

The truck ran just like new driving home, but I'm worried that I'll have problems down the road due to all this mud that got sucked into the turbo. I'm changing the engine oil this weekend and will be analyzing the oil to see what that report tells me.

I'm glad to finally have the truck back, but I'm really disappointed by the lack of respect from the dealer in repairing it (didn't even bother to clean the air filter or the intake tube, and the carelessness in replacing the power steering pump). Also, there is still power steering fluid and mud all over the engine compartment. I was expecting to get the truck back looking like new, because that is how it looked before the accident.

Do I have any choice other than just accept things the way they are and spend what I estimate will be about 10-20 hours to detail the engine compartment and the underside of the truck to make it look like when I drove it off the showroom floor? I only have 3700 miles on it...

I already had it up on that blue lift you see in that last shot and powerwashed the underside once. That got rid of most of the large pieces of mud/dirt (and boy was the shop floor dirty afterwards).

Anyway, I guess I was dreaming to think that I would get my truck back looking like it did before the accident although I kind of had an expectation of getting the truck back in the same condition it was in before the accident.

Should I bitch at the bodyshop/Allstate and tell them to take the truck back and not give it back to me until it looks like new again? Am I beeing too anal about this?

[ 11-15-2002: Message edited by: c5dura ]</p>

[mackin]

That is horrible,why didn't they (dealer) clean????...Sorry ......I know that most won't experience what you did .... But, That is a lesson on open air cleaner elements...I will retain stock box to shield those type of contaminants.....Or most of.....

It sure was sucking some muddy water......It does appear to lessen the farther up in the inlet tube.....

Good luck you have it on record with Ins. company.....You probably will be fine,but,I would do some quick erl flushes anywho.....Did they (INS) offer any possible down the road claim???

MAC

[ 11-15-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[c5dura]

Mackin, I'm meeting with the adjuster next Monday and will get some nice full rez color prints of these pictures to discuss what will happen if something happens down the road as a result of this.

I'm also pi$$ed at the dealer for their 'efforts'. They replaced the PCM module, but the connectors are still soaked in power steering fluid! Also, the frame is bare metal in the front because when I powerwashed it, all the paint came off, again due to that darn power steering fluid.

The only pleasant suprise is that the body shop did a great job repairing the rear composite fender.

C5dura

[SDWA]

The smashing of the radiator fins is unacceptable as far as I would be concerned! Now of course you're not going to get a new radiator, but they should have at least straightened them back out. They make such a tool to do that for that purpose!

Scott

[Paintdude]

Glad your fender got fixed OK.. smile.gif

The rad fin tool is called a comb..Old timers in the shop should have one..

[Kennedy]

I don't want to come off as offensive, but I wonder what the result would have been with the stock air cleaner assy?

[Oongawah]

They'd be pickin' muddy paper.

[Oongawah]

Sorry C5dura,

I'm tired. Didn't mean to make light of the situation. I would however persue future damages from the insurance company. From personal experience it looks like you'll be fine. Usually the worst to come from ingesting water is bent rods, but it appears you got by that one. Hope the best. Take care, Chuck.

[Wally]

Some one posted this when you first told us about your mishap. I think it needs repeating.
Most of the dirt that you see that got by the screen (I would never call a K&N a filter) is now in your intercooler. If you do not remove and clean the intercooler out the dirt will end up in your engine. I know, big pain the butt! Pull it, fill it with water and a small amount of mild soap, let it soak over night then drain it refill it and drain it again. Make absolutely sure it is dry before you reinstall. While you've got it out you should also clean all of the plumbing associated with it. A lot of cleaners can be caustic and will damage the aluminum intercooler. Be cautious about what you use and how much.

[c5dura]

John, I don't think this would have happened with the stock air filter. Since I removed the base plate that would normally sit below the filter (in an effort to get a cold ram-air effect), I basically eliminated the splash shield that would have prevented the filter from being soaked when my front right tire was spinning in reverse.

As it was, when I tried to reverse out of the ditch, all the muddy water was thrown directly up on the K&N from the right front tire. So basically I was running high rpms, throwing up muddy water, right onto an air filter sucking in lots of air.

Needles to say, I'll be adding that "splash shield" back in, and probably add an outerwear filter, or whatever that thing is called, to put over the K&N for additional filtering.

As far as cleaning the K&N filter, should I start by hosing it down with water to get most of the caked on mud off, and then use my K&N cleaining solution and finally re-oil it with my K&N oil solution?

Also, should I worry about cleaning the turbo and intercooler, or just leave those parts alone?

Wally, we posted at the same time, you read my mind though. I'll go ahead and pull the intercooler. Its going to be a long weekend...

C5dura

[ 11-16-2002: Message edited by: c5dura ]</p>

[NutNbutGMC]

^...c5....Sorry about the experience but looks like you have it under control. I'd like to know more about your lift and see some pics. I am fixing to put a lift in my new garage and would like to hear your opinions and suggestions. What price range is the lift in the pic? I have found one that's around $2500. Am I on track?

[c5dura]

NutNbut, you're pretty much right on as far as the lift. I paid right around $2700 delivered for mine. Its a Bend-Pak XL-9ACX, which is a wide, 9000lbs asymetrical lift. I really like the extra width and the fact its asymetrical. You need 145" clearance to the outside edges for the pillar base plates.

When I drive my 3500 cc lb into the lift to where the front door just clear the posts when I open them, I'm centered gravity wise on the lift. Worked out real nice.

I'll see about snapping a few pics of it when I'm pulling that intercooler today.

C5dura

[NutNbutGMC]

^......Thanks c5... Good luck with the cleanup project. I just had two fuel injectors and a FI pump to let go. Talking about a diesel mess. I'll be cleaning diesel for months. It's splashed from the front to the rear.....
Take your time on the pics, but I would like to see a few. I have the clearance. I built a garage with this in mind. My middle bay is 168" clearance, the two outer bays 144".

[FirstDiesel]

When I had an "incident" with one of my sportscars a few years ago I had a discussion with the insurance company about the condition I received the car back in from the body shop. The body shop did a great job on the car but it was a mess inside, from both the incident and their work. The answer from them was they didn't get paid to clean it by the insurnace company. The incsurance company immediatly paid to have the car completely detailed by an independant shop.

I would have a long and serious talk with them about this. The main arguement is that the truck was not in that condition before the accident, you expect it to not be in that condition afterwards.

[FirstDiesel]

One other thing. If you sucked so much muddy water through the K&N why would you even consider using a K&N again??? And if you are so hell bent on using a K&N, if it were me, I'd at least be using a new one rather than counting on the fact that I really got it completely cleaned.

[hdmax(mike)]

This is directed to the ones talking bad about the K&N filter.

I have worked in a Geotech Lab. And you would be amazed at how much fine dirt that can go through a 400 sieve. Doing a wash sieve with a 1/2 pound sample, 2-10% will sometimes pass the 200-400 sieve depending on the type of material.

The only way the filter could have stopped the muddy water is if the truck had a sealed vault. There is no air cleaner/filter in the world that would have worked in those conditions. Not even the Amsiol filter. :D

[c5dura]

FirstDiesel, I was thinking about the detail shop idea as I was slaving away in my garage just now meticulously cleaning oil off all the wiring, etc. I'll talk to the insurance company about that when I hook up with them. I also think I'll ask them about getting me a new K&N.

Incidently, I also had an incident in my vette a few years ago, it also had a K&N and they replaced it, no questions asked.

I pulled out all the intercooling tubing just now. The good news is that the tube exiting the intercooler is very clean, so I don't think any dirt made it into the engine.

It looks like I'll have to pull out the radiator in order to get out the intercooler itself and in order to pull the radiator, I need to remove the fan, which requires a special tool according to the service manal, not to mention draining the coolant, etc.

The more I think about it, the more I feel I shouldn't have to be doing all this crap myself since I'm paying good money to the insurance company to deal with this. The problem is that the old saying "if you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" tends to be more true today than ever before. What to do...

Also, I completely removed the EMC and TCM from the vehicle so that I could clean the connectors/harness real good. I of course disconnected both batteries first. The TCM has an Allison logo on it, pretty cool.

I want to pull the truck outside to powerwash the engine bay (after covering up all openings and connectors), but how the heck do I get it into neutral so I can roll it outside? Can I safely connect the batteries without the EMC and TCM in the vehicle to put the Allison in neutral?

C5dura

[FirstDiesel]

Without the TCM in place will it even go into neutral?? I don't think I would be turning on the truck without both units plugges in properly. JMHO

[Wally]

Really? The radiator has to come out to remove the intercooler? I can see having to remove the AC condensor but not the radiator. Hmm, maybe I better have another look. I guess if you were really resourcefull you could wash it out in place and then use several hours of a shop vac pulling on it to dry it out.

[SoMnDMAX]

C5, you will be able to get the truck into neutral by turning the key just far enough ahead to move the shift lever, and pulling the lever down out of park. The transmission is cable operated, and the park pawl inside the transmission is mechanically linked to the shifter. No electricity needed. Push as necessary. ;)

[dieseldealer]

The power steering fluid that was all over the place should have been cleaned off. The mud? Who`s fault was that? I think it is common sense as to who should be cleaning it off. I do not think insurance pays for excessive clean ups that your truck required.

[c5dura]

Wally, with the facia off the front of the truck, you can see that the radiator is bolted to the intercooler. The intercooler in turn is too tall to snake out the front. It has to go out the rear, which means the radiator has to come out first.

I thought about washing out the intercooler in place and I might just do that. My main hesitation is that both the inlet and the outlet are at the bottom, but then again, so is all the dirt.

SoMnDMAX, good deal on getting the trans into neutal without power. I didn't know you could do that.

C5dura

[NutNbutGMC]

^...c5, all-in-all, seems like you're having a large time with the cleaning project. :D Patience...

[FirstDiesel]

Sorry dieseldealer but I disagree with you. The mud was there as part of the accident. It's not like he was driving off road and got the truck muddy and expects the insurance company to fix it. That's like saying that he hit a tree and they replaced the fender but left all the bark and leaves inside the engine compartment. It's called getting the repair done completely and gettin it done right.

[ 11-16-2002: Message edited by: FirstDiesel ]</p>

[Kennedy]

A good radiator shop should be able to thoroughly clean the intercooler...

[afp]

Don't think the K&N is at fault here. Last week I went hunting two days. On many ocassions I ran through low water crossings and mud holes. Many times my wheels were spinning and throwing muddy water everywhere. I had mud all over my truck, and mud and grass jammed up into places i didn't think it could get.

Druing all this, I checked my air filter. I have the K&N Aircharger system with an outerwears wrap. I also left the bottom metal "tray" in place that is under the factory airbox. The outer wear wap had a couple spots of water on it, on the top side. Evidently, the metal tray keeps a lot of that stuff out.

Blaine

[c5dura]

I'm back on the road again. I ended up powerwashing all the tubes and rubber booths inside and out that make up the plumbing to and from the intercooler. I then used compressed air to make sure these pieces were 100% dry.

After covering up all the various inlets and outlets, I went at it with the powerwasher and was 99% succesfull in removing all remaining power steering fluid and oil (I did avoid spraying the fuel module as per the warning label).

As far as the intercooler itself, I left it in place and connected a garden hose to the outlet (passenger side) and made a temporary seal using a platic bag and wire ties. I let water flow through it for about 1 hour. The water coming out the inlet was clean right from the beginning.

I then replaced the garden hose with a shop vac set to blow rather than suck. I left this connected for about 4 hours to ensure the inside was 100% dry. (yep, I emptied the shop vac first and cleaned it's filter real well)

I then spent a good deal of time detailing the engine with a rag, wiping off excess puddles of water, etc. I then re-installed the intercooler plumbing, the PCM, the TCM and the stock air box. Next was the front fascia and lights. Finally, I reconnected the batteries and was reay for the moment of truth.

Truck fired right up and there were no codes or anything. I let it idle for a good 20 minutes or so to be sure that all remaining water from the cleaning would evaporate.

This morning I drove it to work, and everything is fine, EXCEPT there is this new sound when under boost. Its not turbo whine (which is a lot lower now with the stock air box back in), but it sounds more like a hamonic of some sort, almost like an alternator belt slipping.

The sounds is only there when putting a healthly load on the engine, and is not RPM dependant. The heavier the load, the louder it gets.

I guess I can always play stupid and go back to the dealer and say "listen to this new sound that my truck just started making yesterday" and not tell them about all the time I spent cleaning the charged air system which is something they really should have done to begin with.

Any ideas on this new harmonic like sound, or should I just let the dealer "deal" with it? I know all my clamps are nice and snug, and the tubes and booths all line up nicely, just like before.

C5dura

[ 11-18-2002: Message edited by: c5dura ]</p>

[SoCalDMAX]

C5,

Really sorry to hear about the accident. I'm sure it was a lot of work cleaning it up. As for the dirt in the intercooler, I don't think it's a matter of whose fault it is. The techs removed the intercooler hoses and showed you how far the muddy water went, it was also their responsibility to straighten the radiator fins and investigate the extent of the mud in the intake and remove it. Just sloppy workmanship or "good enough" mentality.

IRT your new harmonic..hmmm perhaps some mud is caked up on the backside of one of the pulleys or - my guess, the crank pully or harmonic balancer.

on edit: Don't discount the possibility of damage to the harmonic balancer or crank pully, it/they mught be bent. I had a harmonic balancer go bad on my car, and it was hard to diagnose at first.

Regards, Steve

[ 11-18-2002: Message edited by: SoCalDMAX ]</p>

[Kennedy]

I don't want to cause any undue alarm, but a shop vac exhaust is seldom very clean by air filtration standards. In other words you would NOT want to blow wet paint with one. The power washer likely did a good job in the pipes if you used soap, but low pressure soapless cold water does little for removing dirt/stains.

I'd do a couple of short term oil changes to be on the safe side.

[c5dura]

Well, the 'harmonic' is not rpm dependent, so I don't think it is related to the pulleys. You know when you blow over the mouth of a beer bottle, you can get it to make a sound? What I'm hearing sounds kind of like that. So I think it must have something to do with the charged air system, or perhaps the stock intake that I put back on.

Its almost as if there is a major leak downstream from the turbo in the charged system somewhere. I'll double check all my clamps tonight, but I know I snug up all eight of them. Besides, they are all spring loaded.

What a major pain this is turning out to be...

C5dura

[c5dura]

John, I agree that low pressure cold water doesn't do a whole lot, as evidenced by the clean water coming out. I was mainly trying to determine if there was any obvious dirt accumulated in the bottom of the intercooler. Apparently that was not the case.

I'm sure the lower portion of the intercooler looks much like the tubing did before I powerwashed it, that is, it has a thin brown coating/stain.

I'm changing the oil tonight, just need to stop by the dealer to pick up a new filter or two. I got a case of Amsoil series 3000, but perhaps I should go with some cheap stuff instead and change again in 500 miles or so?

C5dura

[c5dura]

The 'harmonic' is just about gone.

I dropped by a dealer (not the one that 'fixed' the truck) and picked up a couple of oil filters. While I was there, I double checked all the air box & intercooler connections, everything was nice and tight as expected.

I then hopped over the Blue Ridge mountains on I64. I noticed the sound was subsiding, so I figured I just had to run it a little longer/harder and the sound would go away. Sure enough, after another pass across the mountain (this time at full bore), the sound is almost completely gone.

I guess it could have been the belt tensioner or something, that hadn't quite dried all the way from the extensive power washing, although I swear the sound followed the amount of boost.

C5dura

[Kennedy]

In reality, there is likely very little free dirt in there. Also, only a percentage will actually land and accumulate or pass the rings...

[c5dura]

Are you therefore recommending I should not worry about having the intercooler professionally cleaned?

If left alone, will this film of dirt reduce the efficiency of the intercooler?

If the insurance company goes for it, I was thinking it wouldn't hurt to have both the intercooler and the turbo itself professionally cleaned, but if I let the dealer do it, I have a feeling I'll be worse off than I am right now.

C5dura

[bryantch]

c5dura,

is that a 88-89 turbo? get to the track much? looks sweet from the pic.

oh, yeh, sorry 'bout the dmax...a nice porsche will always get my attention before a truck.

[c5dura]

Bryan, its a '86 944. It belongs to a buddy of mine. Yeah, its pretty sweat. The engine has been completely rebuilt and has yet to be fired. Custom turbo, intercooler, intake, brakes, suspension, 10k paint job, you name it. It should put out about 400hp (flywheel) which is not bad for a 2.5 liter 4 banger.

Yes, he plans to take it to the track. I'll likely tag along in my c5 which is putting out around 500hp (flywheel).

C5dura