Using AC to cool aircharge!

[DA BIG ONE]

For years now I have been thinking of using the AC to cool the aircharge on turbo motors. Ford motor company has a patent on such a system. This idea goes back when someone used freon to to cool everything in a turbo race motor.

How to do it? Well, I would consider some type of enclosure after the turbo to house the AC core.

I consider that there may be no need to use ac in extreme cold, or even mild weather days to cool cabin, so the AC intercooler can be plumbed seperate from the main ac.

Gains would far outweigh any loss of running ac compressor!

Any thoughts?

[markrinker]

Gains would far outweigh any loss of running ac compressor!
Are you certain of this? If this were the case, it would seem that every automaker would capture the unused or excess A/C potential to lower intake charges. All opt to use air-to-air intercooling on turbocharged and supercharged vehicles - equipped with A/C.

You'll need a MUCHO larger compressor and condensor to have any significant cooling effect on the intake charge. At that point, your draw on the motor may exceed the HP gained by the intercooling.

When you use air-to-air you have the entire atmosphere at your disposal. If in a boat, you have the entire lake at your disposal. Consider the volume of air you are trying to cool with an A/C compressor designed only to cool a vehicle's cabin.

p.s. Your Harley dealer must love you! Three new bikes in 2005? Wow!

[Ratau]

Da Big One

I reported about this some time ago here on the DP.

The AC cooling idea has been marketed and going for five years or longer here in South Africa. They started the AC cooling on the 2.8DT Isuzu pick-ups and it works very well. It

[scottmech]

I've also seen a set up (on a Toyota MR2 Turbo) where the ac was used to cool water first, then the water was used in an air to water intercooler for the turbo.

It looked like a plumbing nightmare, but it worked.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

OK, somebody's gotta be the skeptic here - I'll try. ;) Unless I saw some REALLY detailed & scientifically-collected data, there's no way I'll believe that an A/C I/C system can even come close to competing with (as Mark said) all that free atmosphere. If that doesn't do the job on a long hill pull, how about a fan/blower on the I/C? Again, I'd have to see rock solid numbers before I'd believe this type of fan/blower would draw more power than the A/C compressor as described. Further, it would seem that you'd have to be pulling that hill awful slow before you'd need a fan/blower to move additional air through the I/C.

That these manufacturers are doing this, doesn't in & of itself mean it's a good idea. Didn't Deutz do this with their tractors some time ago? I don't think they do anymore, but I'm a long ways from being sure about that.

Remember the International tractors with hydrostatic drive? Great idea - continuously variable gearing, ratio adjustable on-the-fly. Only problem was, they used almost exactly twice the fuel (Nebraska test & real experience).

(Well, if that doesn't get me flamed, I guess nothing will! :eek: )

Blessings!

[DA BIG ONE]

Originally posted by Mark Rinker:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Gains would far outweigh any loss of running ac compressor!
Are you certain of this? If this were the case, it would seem that every automaker would capture the unused or excess A/C potential to lower intake charges. All opt to use air-to-air intercooling on turbocharged and supercharged vehicles - equipped with A/C.

You'll need a MUCHO larger compressor and condensor to have any significant cooling effect on the intake charge. At that point, your draw on the motor may exceed the HP gained by the intercooling.

When you use air-to-air you have the entire atmosphere at your disposal. If in a boat, you have the entire lake at your disposal. Consider the volume of air you are trying to cool with an A/C compressor designed only to cool a vehicle's cabin.

p.s. Your Harley dealer must love you! Three new bikes in 2005? Wow! </font>[/QUOTE]Not sure it will work w/o some losses, but wanted to see if anyone had more thoughts, or even hard facts on this type of aircharge cooling.

Starting to see it maybe ok for slower driving but the free air at speed is far better for cooling.

I am putting 1 Harley up for sale, the Buell XB12r. While it is a rocket that handles better than most bikes I hate not being able to put both feet on the ground when stopped.

[DA BIG ONE]

[quote]Originally posted by Ratau:
[b] Da Big One

I reported about this some time ago here on the DP.

The AC cooling idea has been marketed and going for five years or longer here in South Africa. They started the AC cooling on the 2.8DT Isuzu pick-ups and it works very well. It

[Jim P]

I have no idea if it would work or not but this is what I was planning when I made my cast aluminum housing with the evaporator inside. I am running with the intercooler installed but I have never hooked the ac compressor up. I guess I just never got time and I really don't know a whole lot about ac systems.

I was thinking more of running water through the evaporator and mounting a radiator to cool the water. I havn't gotten around to this either.

Here are some pictures if anybody wants to see them.

http://my.raex.com/~jpfarmer/.photos/intercoolermountedontruck/intercooler002.jpg

http://my.raex.com/~jpfarmer/.photos/intercoolermountedontruck/intercooler001.jpg

http://my.raex.com/~jpfarmer/.photos/intercoolercasting/intercooler005.jpg

http://my.raex.com/~jpfarmer/.photos/intercoolerpipe/intercooler.jpg

The one picture shows the top cover before the hole was machined for the air to enter.

[Barry Nave]

Jim P
Look's Cool :D Wish I had time to do what you guys can do. May be when I old'er. ;)
I'm going with MoonDog tongue.gif

[Jim P]

This thread has lit a fire under a$$. I am going to do a little experimenting with my intercooler.

My cousin stopped today and informed me that our local drag strip is going to have a dyno day this sunday.

I have a 50 gallon tank complete with a 12 volt pump that I put in the bed to haul extra water when we go camping at a place without water. I am going to plumb this to my intercooler and run the truck on the dyno with the water pumping through the intercooler. I then want to run it again with the water pump off and see what difference it makes. I think this will be interesting.

[dieselrealtor]

Glad to see this post, I have been thinking about this for a couple of weeks. I am not sure of the dynamics of it, but typically (from my experience years ago) the evaporator would cool down ambient temperature around 40-50 degrees F in an r134 system.

I had 2 concerns with this idea;
1. how much could you get the air cooled down? (how much benefit would you actually get)
2. 110 degrees F (ambient) is a big difference from 300+ degrees F, I don't know if the hardware would take this much heat & pressure.

I look foreward to seeing thoughts from those of you who know a lot more than I do. :D

[DA BIG ONE]

Originally posted by Jim P:
This thread has lit a fire under a$$. I am going to do a little experimenting with my intercooler.

My cousin stopped today and informed me that our local drag strip is going to have a dyno day this sunday.

I have a 50 gallon tank complete with a 12 volt pump that I put in the bed to haul extra water when we go camping at a place without water. I am going to plumb this to my intercooler and run the truck on the dyno with the water pumping through the intercooler. I then want to run it again with the water pump off and see what difference it makes. I think this will be interesting. Actually, running water through your IC is not a good idea, because it will pool in the IC. Installing it after the IC is what you are looking for to cool the aircharge more.

I have seen the average aircharge cooling for the type of IC I have "a B&D" which is mounted between the chassis rails and on an angle is about 100 deg., so, I think adding water after the IC @ 10psi boost and above will help. How much? The jury is still out.

[DA BIG ONE]

Originally posted by diesel realtor:
Glad to see this post, I have been thinking about this for a couple of weeks. I am not sure of the dynamics of it, but typically (from my experience years ago) the evaporator would cool down ambient temperature around 40-50 degrees F in an r134 system.

I had 2 concerns with this idea;
1. how much could you get the air cooled down? (how much benefit would you actually get)
2. 110 degrees F (ambient) is a big difference from 300+ degrees F, I don't know if the hardware would take this much heat & pressure.

I look foreward to seeing thoughts from those of you who know a lot more than I do. :D I think a thick core would be best, so custom fabrication would be needed (plate type), stacking some smaller cores comes to mind so air has longer contact to maximize heat transfer, then use a variable rate orfice (vov)which far out performs the standard expansion valve at idle, and low rpms.

I was even thinking old tech, using ammonia then heating it using the exhaust, but too dangerious, but can make ice in short order.

Call me crazy!

[Barry Nave]

OK Big one. your, what you call tongue.gif
Take the water and jet,mist the IC. on the out side.
Don't run the water through the IC.
:rolleyes:

[Jim P]

Actually, running water through your IC is not a good idea, because it will pool in the IC. Installing it after the IC is what you are looking for to cool the aircharge more.
My intercooler is basically an ac evaporator housed in an aluminum case. The water will be pumped through the evaporator and it work just like a liguid intercooler or atleast that is the plan. I think the 50 gal. of cool water will be sufficient for the dyno run but if I used this in a real life situation, the water in the tank would get hot fast and then have no cooling affect. I would then need a radiator to cool the water. I am just using the tank for testing to see how effective the liquid intercooler will be at making horsepower.

[DA BIG ONE]

Originally posted by Jim P:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Actually, running water through your IC is not a good idea, because it will pool in the IC. Installing it after the IC is what you are looking for to cool the aircharge more.
My intercooler is basically an ac evaporator housed in an aluminum case. The water will be pumped through the evaporator and it work just like a liguid intercooler or atleast that is the plan. I think the 50 gal. of cool water will be sufficient for the dyno run but if I used this in a real life situation, the water in the tank would get hot fast and then have no cooling affect. I would then need a radiator to cool the water. I am just using the tank for testing to see how effective the liquid intercooler will be at making horsepower. </font>[/QUOTE]OK! Then maybe a small electric powered compressor from say an ice maker to constantly cool water supply, and a circulation pump to move it through your IC setup...