6.2TD Engine Experiment. FINAL RESULTS and summary!

[Stray Cat]

I posted in November that the bottom of the #4 cylinder in my 6.2TD disintegrated after making a tapping for several weeks. After a great deal of research, I have ordered a 6.2L Long-Block from The Diesel Depot. It will have low compression (19.5:1), ceramic coated top, graphite coated skirt, pistons; performance cam, stud girdle, high-volume oil pump, gear-drive timing, new heads with "diamond" pre-cups, liners in water passages between valves. I have the exhaust manifolds, cross-over, and Turbo exhaust housing being ceramic coated. Diesel Page subscriber "Salemone" and I will set it up on his dyno, testing every step of the way. Some of what we have to test are: 1.0 ratio (Banks) Turbo exhaust housing vs. 0.84 ratio Turbo exhaust housing; 6.2L N/A injectors vs. 6.5L Turbo injectors; 6.2L IP (2829) vs. 6.5L IP (2831); Banks Turbo to Intake hardware vs 6.5L Turbo to Intake hardware; variable timing settings (we have a Diesel Timing kit). We will record the power curve (Torque) with every change. Our goal is to find out what really makes a difference, and how much of a difference it makes. We will be recording Torque, Boost, and EGT throughout the RPM range. Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, are more than welcome. When done, this engine will go back into my 1983 Chevy K20 Suburban with HD TH-700R4 trans. My goal is that it has good power and reliability, and lasts for another 24+ years!

[ 06-02-2005, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Stray Cat ]

[john8662]

Sounds like fun, keep us posted, and document it all with pictures!

[Craig M]

Real data from modifications is something we will all appreciate. Seat of the pants is nice, but real data is better. Are you interested in testing affects of headers on the NA version of the 6.2? I have a set that could be used for testing if desired.

[coxfmly]

Craig M, I was wondering if you could tell me about your truck with the 6.2, T400 and G.V unit?
I have a Suburban with like drive train.
Did you install the unit or was it on the truck when you purchased it?
I'm interested to know how the G.V. unit helped or not? I am looking for one but I want to hear real world use first. I really need the 2nd over when I hit the hills. I think a trans swap might be a little much and my T400 is so stout.


Thanks

[Stray Cat]

John,
We'll take some digital pics and post them. Craig,
If you want to ship us the headers, I'd love to test them! I want to start on the dyno with the engine N/A, then go to the Banks Turbo, etc. If you get me the headers, we'll test them and post the results before we go to the Turbo set-up. The engine should show-up by the end of next week; we'll take some time to get it ready for the dyno, then mount it on the dyno, so you have time to get them to us. My cell number is 714-345-9777. Give me a call!

[C.K. Piquup]

I`d be interested in seeing results with headers.I don`t see how they can`t be an improvement.They help gas motors w/torque as much as hi-rpm hp.

[DmaxMaverick]

Originally posted by C.K. Piquup:
I`d be interested in seeing results with headers.I don`t see how they can`t be an improvement.They help gas motors w/torque as much as hi-rpm hp. The effect is the same, gas or Diesel, with a N/A engine. The exhaust scavenging occurs at specific a RPM range(s), depending on the design. A turbo'd engine could benefit from headers, but in a different way, by increasing the efficiency of flow in the system--less corners for the gases to make while getting pushed out. Stock manifolds are quite restrictive in that respect.

In some cases, you can gain as much with headers (coupled with some other non-turbo mod's) as you can with a turbo. Just ask Dr. Lee about that.

I too will be following this thread with interest.

[Craig M]

Hey Stray Cat,

Are you currently in Arizona or Corona. If Corona should be able to deliver in person. Will be out of town next 2 days but back by Thursday.

The Gear Vendors on my Dually was installed when I got it, so can not comment on the installation issues. For empty driving it keeps the rpm's down on the freeway. Use it only on third over then. With a heavy load do split the gears going up the hills. 2nd over and third under are actually pretty close so not a great gain there, but splitting is nice. The Gear Vendors units are are pricey, but if you watch Ebay and other sources a use one can be had for less than $1000 every once in awile. For the price of a new Gear Vendors unit one can get an overdrive transmission.

[Stray Cat]

I am in Corona...call me when you have the chance.

[Stray Cat]

I am in Corona...call me when you have the chance.

[Craig M]

Will call later this week and set up delivery of the headers.

Craig

[Stray Cat]

The Engine is here...we plan to start building it on a stand by the beginning of next week. We will then transfer it to the dyno to begin testing. We will start with it being N/A and stock manifolds for a base line. We will then put on he headers, then to Banks (1.0 ratio) Turbo, then 0.84 ratio turbine, then 6.5 IP, then 6.5T injectors, etc. We will document power under all conditions...I may even build graphs. I will post pictures and results as we get them. Yee-ha...the fun has started!

[shamanie]

Outstanding, I cant wait to see the results.

[doncannon]

Stray Cat,

I have a 1.6 diesel rabbit that needs all the help it can get, so I rigged up a ram air (funnel in the grille through a tube to the intake). It seems to help a little so I removed the deflector on the front of the deflector on my 6.2td as someone on here suggested (sorry would like to give credit where due). Also could you test the 6.2 and 6.5 with and without mufflers. My 6.2td runs great without the muffler (and sounds good too)? hope this helps, Don

[Stray Cat]

Don Cannon,
We will run the engine on the dyno with open exhaust after the manifolds, so it would be difficult and time consuming to set it up for with and without a muffler. I have a friend who got the Banks kit for his Dodge Cummins TD; he was disappointed in the 3.5 inch exhaust and Muffler that came from Banks. He called Banks and was told that they felt that the supplied exhaust was sufficient. He bought 4.0 inch exhaust with straight through Muffler and it gave him more power and lower EGTs. He took off the Muffler and put a straight pipe on it and got yet better power and lower EGTs! He says that it is not excessively loud. I plan to try mine with the Banks Muffler, and with a straight pipe. If there is a noticeable difference in power without excessive noise (the wife uses this truck to haul the kids around and get groceries), I will leave the Muffler off. But, the only true measure will be EGT with the rest being seat of the pants, not on a dyno. My guess is that if you notice a difference in power without excessive noise, you have your best combination. Any other thoughts from the Diesel gurus here?

[Ratau]

Stray Cat

One simple test that you could add is to measure exhaust manifold pressure. Especially when you do compressor housing swaps to check what the pump losses are.

I started a topic

[Stray Cat]

Ratau, "Salemone" already did the turbine loss test, that you refer to, on another engine. He found that, regardless of the turbo, the results are pretty linear and consistent. It is about a 1:2 ratio. For example, if you are getting 5psi of boost, there is about 2.5psi of back-pressure; if you are getting 10psi of boost, there is about 5psi of back-pressure; if you are getting 20psi of boost, there is about 10psi of back-pressure.

[Stray Cat]

Sorry for the long time with no updates! I received the engine and had it assembled and on the dyno, ready to start, last Sunday. Several things converged to save catastrophy at that moment! We ("Salemone") and I decided to leave the Intake Manifold off for the initial testing as we were beginning with the engine N/A. Also, I had already filled the cooling system of the dyno; but, "Salemone" said I should add another gallon. As I poured the additional gallon into the cooling system, coolant began to pour out of the #1 intake port! It turns out that the new-casting heads that I bought from Diesel Depot, and were made by Alabama Cylinder Heads, had a defect in the #1 port where the casting was rough and thin and went down to a 1/4" hole between the port and water passage that was several inches down in the #1 port! Thank God I didn't just put the engine in my truck, or put the Intake Manifold on before starting on the dyno, and did add that last gallon to the coolant system! So, I am now awaiting a replacement head that is due to arrive next Tuesday. I then have to have the valve-train done, and put it back on the engine. I probably won't be ready to start the thing until next week-end. The two-week delay is frustrating, but the fact that we did not hydraulically seize the engine is the silver lining! I have the first several pictures ready to post, I just need to get them onto this computer...stay tuned!

[ 02-19-2005, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Stray Cat ]

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

coxfmly: The GV is 0.78 to 1 ratio, so you can easily determine if using it to split 2nd gear is worth it or not.

Blessings!

Brian Johnson, # 5044

[Stray Cat]

Here is a link to the photos. The first is the Long Block as it arrived from "Diesel Depot" (62LB)....the next is the engine on the dyno before we topped off the coolant (62dyno1)....the last is the coolant pooled in the #1 intake port (62water#1in). I will add more as we go....
http://photos.yahoo.com/petmanbob

[john8662]

Stray Cat,

water out of the intake port? So it was you Benny Avant was talking about! He mentioned a guy in Cali with a 6.2 that was going to use a set of the new heads that were ported. We had been talking back and forth about a set of heads I purchased, and things to look for on them (that were bad). I had purchased the set of cylinder heads from a company online in preparation for my 6.5L rebuild. After talking to Benny, I have returned the heads, they are reproductions of the GM heads and are lower quality cast in China. I'm going to settle for a set of re-man GM heads.

Did you install the heads on your 6.2 or did they come from the Diesel Depot installed?

[Stray Cat]

I must have been that guy in Cali! He sent the heads to me with the engine, but not installed, because I am re-using my original valve-train. So, I had a head shop grind the valves, assemble them, and vacuum test the seal on the valves. No one noticed the hole in the intake port, not Diesel Depot, the head shop, or us as we assembled the engine. Thank goodness we found it before trying to start the engine! Benny is sending me a replacement head that is inspected.
Why did you decide to return the new cast heads? I plan to use them as long as there are no holes in them!

[john8662]

Stray Cat,

The new cast heads are reproduction heads. They were designed a little differently than the GM heads are. For one, the port between the valves that flows coolant is thicker, which poses a problem for installing the sleeve kit in that area. Second, the alloy in the heads is different, from what I understand softer. The heads also had some other problems such as the intake and exhaust ports (without being ported of course) are rough as compared to the GM heads, the cast is rough. Most of the heads were milled from new, the set I got was complete with valves, but I noticed they had been milled, after being told by Benny. The problem with them being milled was that they were milled with the pre-cups installed, making the metal on the pre-cups thinner, and more prone to cracking. And finally, since my heads were complete with the valves, the valves were not set equally in each cylinder, they varied more than Benny liked. They may very well be good heads, but are not tested yet. The heads you got were the same I ordered out of an outfit in Alabama. The Diesel Depot had purchased them too, and found that they were not up to par either.

I looked at the pictures of your engine on the stand w/o the heads installed, is that grease or rust on the sealing surface?

Did you have The Diesel Depot install a stud girdle kit in that engine, or do you have plans to. I think that any above stock power 6.2 should have this kit, to help re-inforce the bottom end. Looks like you got a late model 88+ 660 block 6.2!

[Stray Cat]

John, There was a bit of surface rust on the block deck surface as it was obviously shipped across country, in the rain, in an open truck. It was very mild, you could wipe it off with your finger-tip. I heard that the alloy mix was different. But, I heard that it was intentional because of the propensity of the stock heads to have the hair-line cracks. A softer alloy makes sense for that...it would allow a bit of flex under stress. A harder alloy is more prone to simply break. I hope this is true, and it is not just inferior material! I hope the new casting heads are sufficient! I do plan to use them. I did have a stud-girdle, installed by Diesel Depot, on the block. Other upgrades are lower compression (19.5:1), ceramic-coated top, graphite-coated skirt pistons....performance cam....gear-drive timing...."diamond" (largest passage) pre-cups....high-volume oil pump. I hope it all goes together well and runs for 20-years....I hope the heads don't prove to be a weak point!

[john8662]

Stray Cat,

I bet the heads will work out for you. The company that sells them assured me that the send tons of them overseas for the Military, without any problems. Only time will tell.

Sounds like you have a real sweet 6.2L build going. I'm doing something very similar with my 6.5TD for my slowburban. Basically the same are your build, But I didn't elect to go with the performance cam, maybe your findings will change my mind on the cam, I'm not convinced on it. I didn't elect to do the stud girdle kit, because I am going to do the splayed main caps. Now if I can only find a rebuildable 6.5 to send...

So your block was literally shipped in the rain? You have to be kidding man!

[Stray Cat]

Okay...it's finally running on the dyno! Although, it ran like crap and filled the room with white smoke on the initial start. After clearing the smoke and checking the injection timing, we began advancing the timing. We got to the physical limit on advance, and it ran bad instead of horrible. We removed the water pump and timing plate, and the gears were properly aligned according to the marks. We are sure that the crank to cam gears are properly aligned because we measured #1 TDC with a dial indicator before installing the heads, and the mark was on the money...with the crank set to TDC at #1, the mark on the cam gear is straight up. So, we experimented with the IP gear and found that to get it in the range of proper adjustment, we had to move the gear one tooth advanced from the mark on the gear. It runs good there! Any thoughts on why that may be? It is the same pump from the original engine, and it timed just fine. The only change is the new engine with gear-drive cam and timing, but we know that those are set right...hmmm? Well, after we get the timing dialed in, we will begin the tests! I took pics of the engine coming to life for the first time and the dyno room so full of smoke (because the timing was so far retarded) that the smoke going out of the fan-driven roof vent made it look like the building was on fire. But, I left the camera at Salemone's shop, I will post the pics when I get the camera. Stay tuned...the numbers and pics will start rolling in!!!
PS Both of the heads from ACH (Alabama Cylinder Heads) were concave on the deck surface and required milling .010" off to make them flat!

[ 03-01-2005, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Stray Cat ]

[john8662]

Stay Cat,

Thats great it's running, looking forward to the pics! I don't have ANY clue why you had to advance the timing mark on the IP to Cam gear, maybe something off in the injection pump?

Ditto on the ACH, I have no regrets sending them back...

[Craig M]

Good news StrayCat;

Which turbo's are you going to test. The Banks and GM units? I have a Roto-Master Hi-Flow A/R85 turbo with manifolds that could be tested if you wanted.

[odee]

are the pump drive gears the same between the 6.2 and 6.5? I have heard that some of the early red engines had different timing.

[Stray Cat]

Craig, We will go from N/A with stock manifold to N/A with headers, to Banks manifold with Banks (1.0 A/R) ehhaust housing, to 0.84 A/R exhaust housing. If you want us to test your Turbo and Manifold, I will need them soon.

Odee, I hope it is just a difference in the gear. The IP gear is from my 83 6.2L, the engine is late 6.2 with 6.5 gear housing.

[Craig M]

I am not to familiar with the different turbo's. If the one I have is similar to the one you are testing then no reason to add extra work.

[Stray Cat]

Craig, Give me a call at 714-345-9777 (cell phone) and we can possibly get together to compare the Turbo's...unless someone here knows the difference/similarity?

[Stray Cat]

Alright...baseline is done! The engine is N/A with stock manifolds, timing is set to 2degrees ATDC (Timing gear kit advances cam 3degrees), and rings not seated. The compression on all pistons is about 300...#3 cylinder is an outlier at 260. We will keep an eye on that! Max torque is 210 at 1500 RPMs...max HP is 115 at 3500 RPMs. I will put together test results and graphs as we go. There are two new pics posted [URL=http://photos.yahoo.com/petmanbob][/6.2L dyno] . One of John (Salemone)starting the engine for the first time, you can see the first puff of exhaust as it roars to life. The other is of the dyno room filled with the exhaust smoke because the timing was so far retarded! Next, we will put the headers on and test.

[john8662]

Posted for Stray Cat

6.2L dyno (http://photos.yahoo.com/petmanbob)

[grape]

what's the density altitude of the air being sampled for intake tract air, or what's the correction?

[Stray Cat]

The results are in on the headers. They increase torque by about 12% and HP by about 13% at 2,000 RPMs. The gains are all in mid-range (2K-3k RPMs), with no difference at lower RPMs (0-1.5K RPMs), and actually losing power at higher RPMs (above 3K RPMs). Our next step is to put the Banks Turbo on. We will have to fabricate a cross-over pipe for the exhaust because the Banks pipe conflicts with the dyno. Hope to get it done ASAP. I will get a pic of the engine with headers up soon. If someone can tell me how to attach a file (it is .xls), I will attach the chart and graph for this test.

grape, the altitude here in Corona is about 800ft.; Barometric pressure was 29.25 during both tests. I re-tested compression with all glow-plugs out and got different results. I will try again with fresh battery, also.

[humding]

What type of header setup did you test? tri y or 4 into 1. Also what sizes are the pipes at the various stages?

[Stray Cat]

humding, they were "Hooker Competition" long-pipe headers that were 1 1/4" pipes into 2 1/2" collectors. The header picture is posted. 6.2L dyno (http://photos.yahoo.com/petmanbob)

[ 03-05-2005, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Stray Cat ]

[mpascino]

They make hooker headers for a 6.2 diesel?

[Stray Cat]

mpascino, obviously so...look at the picture.

[DmaxMaverick]

Stray Cat

Those are purdy!


Couple questions:

Do the headers make the starter inaccessible? Sure looks that way from the pic. May not be a bad idea to shield the starter from the collector, for permanent use, of course.

Do you have a contact/link to the headers? Hooker isn't showing them openly, or I just couldn't find them. I'm sure they aren't too popular. Drop a hint on the retail price, if you could.

[Stray Cat]

Maverick, Yeah, it gets very tight around the starter...I would use a heat shield for permanent installation. As to the price and availability, I don't know!?! TDP member "Craig M" brought them to me to add ot our battery of tests. Craig also gave me another turbo, that looks interesting, to test....thanks Craig!
Craig, Can you give an answer about price and availability on the headers? I wonder if they are designed for some other GM big-block and someone just figured out that they will fit on a 6.2L? We did the first-pass on the engine with Banks turbo installed last night, we should have solid numbers by the end of the weekend!

[Stray Cat]

Okay...I think the timing thing, where we had to advance the IP timing gear one tooth, is a problem with the pump. I started it today, with the intention of doing more testing, and it ran like crap and put out a lot of smoke again. I checked the timing, and it showed to be massively retarded again (about 20 degrees, just like when I first started it). So, we changed the IP to the 6.5 pump (4911). We ran the battery dead trying to purge the lines, so we put it on a charger and quit for the night. Any ideas on what could be going on in an IP that would cause it to retard that much continuosly? Or, is there something else that we should be looking at? I have a sinking feeling that I will be taking things apart and moving the IP gear back!

[ 03-06-2005, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Stray Cat ]

[opto]

First of all thanks a lot Stray cat for sharing all your work with us...

It'll be great to read the results.

Not very long ago I upgraded my 6.2 with a Banks kit. Great but I really think the choice of turbo is very conservative, I would have prefered one with wastegate and boost at lower rpm. So my intension is to mount a seperate wastegate and modify the turbo.
So my question is: Has anybody done this? Some suggestions?

[Ratau]

After testing the .84 turbine turbo consider going for T4 .69 turbine housing with an external waste gate like Grape did.

Danie

[Stray Cat]

opto, Many have done what you are considering. I would search the page for ideas. If you don't get enough information, post a question.

ratau, I would be happy to test a T4 if someone has one to loan.

[ 03-16-2005, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Stray Cat ]

[britannic]

What pressure is the lift pump putting out?


Originally posted by Stray Cat:
Okay...I think the timing thing, where we had to advance the IP timing gear one tooth, is a problem with the pump. I started it today, with the intention of doing more testing, and it ran like crap and put out a lot of smoke again. I checked the timing, and it showed to be massively retarded again (about 20 degrees, just like when I first started it). So, we changed the IP to the 6.5 pump (4911). We ran the battery dead trying to purge the lines, so we put it on a charger and quit for the night. Any ideas on what could be going on in an IP that would cause it to retard that much continuosly? Or, is there something else that we should be looking at? I have a sinking feeling that I will be taking things apart and moving the IP gear back!

[Stray Cat]

brittanic,
The pump feeding the IP is an electric pump that is providing 5 PSI of fuel pressure. We got the 4911 IP on, and it times just fine...I didn't have to move the timing gear; it is still one tooth advanced. So, we got it going again, and are ready to move forward with the testing. I guess the other IP was bad. Would low fuel pressure from the feeder/lift pump cause the timing to retard? Thanks!

[Craig M]

The Hooker header were bought by me from an individual, not a dealer. They are specific to the 6.2 diesel, not for a big block. Have not seen any other Hookers for the 6.2 for sale lately. They may have been a limited run by Hooker from the past. Stans Headers for the 6.2 are still available. Not sure if dyno results for Stans would be similar to the Hookers or not?

[Stray Cat]

Well...I guess the good news is that the problems are happening before the engine goes in the truck :rolleyes: ! The bad news is that, while testing the engine on the dyno on Sunday, we had a major problem. After making a run at 2,000 RPMs, I brought the engine down to idle to hear a loud mettalic clacking sound from the passenger side of the engine :mad: . I shut the engine down and checked compression on that side. The #6 cylinder was 50 psi down from the last check two days prior. I removed the head to find that the #6 piston had been hitting the head & the valves had been hitting the piston! I tested piston clearance and found that the other three pistons were between .015 and .020 from the deck at TDC...#6 was at .050 from the deck at TDC! So, we believe that the rod bearing is shot on #6. I got permission from Benny (Diesel Depot) to remove the oil pan for further inspection. I will take a picture of the piston and whatever I find on the bottom end and post them. We have always had good oil pressure (in fact it was high at first, near 80psi...hmmm?) and have run the engine for a total of 5-6 hours. It has never gotten hot, and has never been run at more that 3500 RPMs, and that for only a few seconds at a time for testing. I thought we had just a few more tests to do, and it was ready to go back in the Suburban; I am guessing we can add another month or so now :( . I do have more results on the Banks Turbo set-up and power at different timing settings. We were half-way through testing the engine with Banks compressor and Air Research 0.84 A/R exhaust housing when #6 gave up the ghost.

[john8662]

So you're saying that #6 was .050 above the deck surface, while the other two were less. Any idea why this is so, an assembly problem? I thought TDD checked piston protrusion on all holes on a rebuilt engine? Keep us posted (I'm really interested as I've got a block there right now) :rolleyes:

[grape]

when a rod bearing goes it will sit down in the bore the thickness of the bearing, yet when it's running that distance isn't there on the back side and allows the rod and piston to be slung up into the head.

[Stray Cat]

John, grape nailed it! The pistons are recesed below the deck the measured distance. With no bearing to speak of, the rod floats on the crank, and when the engine is running, it will be slung up into the head.

[78Chev]

Where should the pistons be at? I thought they were normally just above deck height on a standard compression engine.

Do you expect to find your rod journal on the crank damaged?
Randy

[Stray Cat]

Okay...I got the bottom end apart, and it was just the #6 rod bearing...all else looks good. But, metal debris got around in the engine and scored some of the cylinder walls. So, I need a new short-block. I am working with Benny (Diesel Depot) on that now. I posted pictures of the damage to the engine. I also posted the Charts of the dyno test results, so far. Take a L@@K!
6.2 photos & charts (http://photos.yahoo.com/petmanbob)

[grape]

all of those specs in the #8 bearing bother me, that's dirt from assembly that gets imbedded in bearings as soon as the engine is turned over.

[britannic]

5 psi is OK, but 7 psi might be little bit healthier for higher horsepower - unless the pump can maintain the pressure/flow at higher rpms and fuel demand.


Originally posted by Stray Cat:
brittanic,
The pump feeding the IP is an electric pump that is providing 5 PSI of fuel pressure. We got the 4911 IP on, and it times just fine...I didn't have to move the timing gear; it is still one tooth advanced. So, we got it going again, and are ready to move forward with the testing. I guess the other IP was bad. Would low fuel pressure from the feeder/lift pump cause the timing to retard? Thanks!

[arveetek]

Did you have an oil cooler hooked up on this engine while it was on the dyno? Or did you just have the lines bypassed?

Casey

[20050420|7|006071|000022|69.19.2.78]

Is there any news on the experiment?

[Stray Cat]

Sorry ofr the long delayin updates. I have been working 12-18 hours a day and a lot on weekends! I have been getting whatever work I can on the engine done when a window of time was available. The bottom-end of the engine is assembled. We are next going to profile the "Diesel Depot" performance cam that is in the engine. I will try to get the stock cam out of the old engine, if it is not too damaged (the wrist-pin for the piston that failed got wedged on top of the cam; it was flattened!), for comparison. Then we will put the engine together completely and get it back on the dyno. We had a visit from Jamie, of the "Diesel Depot" over this last weekend. He was out in the area to do some work with a HMMV club in the area. Jamie is a great guy and it was nice to put a face to the name! A picture of John (Salemone), Jamie and I are posted with my project pics. Jamie is on the left, John in the middle, I am on the right.
http://photos.yahoo.com/petmanbob

[Stray Cat]

The engine is back in the Suburban...but still many connections and installation to do before starting. I can't wait to see how it does in the truck vs. on the dyno! Updates to come!

[Ratau]

Stray Cat

Which turbo did you put on? If you start from scratch will you go for the 0.84 turbine housing and what about adding a waste gate?

[Stray Cat]

I wanted to put it in with the 0.84 exhaust housing. But, the bolt pattern for the exhaust flange is 1/4-inch smaller. I will need to cut off the end of the exhaust pipe and modify. So, to get it running, I put it together with the Banks 1.0 exhaust housing. I will change when I can. I guess this will let me get a real-world feel for the difference. The engine is in and I started it last night. It started right up and ran smooth. I will hopefully wrap things up by the weekend!

[Stray Cat]

Got it on the road again for a short trip to San Diego and back over the weekend (100 miles each way; steep grades). It ran weak with no black smoke on the way down. I bumped up the fuel 1/8 turn and it ran stronger with very little black smoke on the way back. EGTs up to 1,000 and boost at 9psi. The engine stayed very COOL! I bumped the fuel up another 1/4 turn when I got home. I haven't run it hard to test it at that setting.
So, the charts with power differences are valid as far as percentage changes with each modification; but, the power can go up on each because the engine in the vehicle took much more fuel and therefore power! The last tests we did made no difference in power than those listed on the charts. The other things we tried, and their results are:
-We installed "Rotomaster" compression turbine (larger than "Banks") with 0.84 exhaust turbine. We thought this would be best set-up for boost and power. We got LESS boost and the same power with more black smoke.
-We installed a GM-8 turbo. No change in power on this engine. When we installed it on the baseline (old stock N/A 6.2L), it made 18psi of boost and gobs of power! Maybe because of lower compression vs. stock compression?
-We installed 6.5Turbo injectors. No change in power.
-We re-checked power at different IP timing settings. The results were consistent, but not identical to the original test. Where the results were consistent was between 0-degrees and 6-degrees ATDC. The power went up as we went from 0-degrees to 2-degrees ATDC to 4-degrees ATDC to 6-degrees ATDC; just as the original test. The results were not identical between 6-degrees ATDC and 12-degrees ATDC. As we continued to retard the IP timing this time, the power did not change!?! It did continue to increase, but at a much lower rate, originally.
IN SUMMARY:
-4911 IP made the biggest difference.
-Headers increase power in the mid-range on N/A.
-Banks turbo adds power similar to advertised.
-A tighter ratio exhaust housing will add more power and boost.
-IP timing has a big impact on power! This engine liked 6-degrees ATDC (stock setting).
-Turbo injectors do not add power (may be more efficient?).

Any input, feedback, thoughts, ideas are welcome!

[Stray Cat]

I got the 0.84 A/R exhaust housing installed. Max boost went from 9 psi (Banks) to 12 (0.84). EGTs are 950 at 12 psi boost. I will increase fuel delivery until EGTs max at about 1,200. Boost comes in almost immediately off the line; about the same when cruising at 65-70MPH (2-4 psi); responds quickly when accelerating from cruising up to 10 psi! I like it! A bit more fine tuning, and the beast is done!

[Dieselboy]

I've enjoyed watching the project progress. It's certainly given me food for thought.

[C.K. Piquup]

I`ve enjoyed this project,too.Gettin`er tweeked now.

[mhagie]

Stray cat, You mention that you are running the timing @ 6*ATDC is that at idle or 1400?
I have a 599 block bored to 6.5 w/banks turbo and am in the middle of checking timing and I was under the impression that timing was the best at 4* btdc @1400 unless of course I missunderstood after for before tdc which is possible.
right now I have 6.5* BTDC @ idle 2.6 ATDC @1400 pump is advanced 1/8 to drivers side.
Thanks Merle

[grape]

well, my .68 housing my not be small enough for what i'm trying to do with how the .84 worked. Guess i need to get a .58 for when we go on the dyno with my junker, which the block will be back from machining this week.......gotta love needle cam bearings, i think I've lost my mind.

[Stray Cat]

Timing is at 6-degrees ATDC at 1400 RPMs, close to 0 to slightly before at idle. Also, be aware that there is a big difference in the readings of a luminosity probe and pulse sensor. Snap-On manual states that the pulse sensor can be up to 20-degrees off of actual timing. The pulse sensor reads the pulse as it goes through the fuel line; the luminosity probe reads the actual explosion. So, the luminosity probe is necessary to set initial timing; the pulse sensor is okay for adjusting timing from a known point, but NOT for setting timing! I measured a 10-degree difference between the luminosity probe and pulse sensor. With the luminosity probe, the timing measures 6-degrees ATDC at 1400RPMs. With the pulse sensor, I read 4-degrees BTDC...a difference of 10-degrees. The engine continues to turn while the fuel travels those last few inches to the injector, builds the pressure to push through the injector, and get into the cylinder and ignite...in my case, that is 10-degrees of rotation. Moral of the story is, use a luminosity probe to set timing or you really don't know where you are! I would never run a diesel anywhere BTDC. On a diesel, the timing is measured by the actual explosion, if the explosion happens BTDC, you pound the piston back on the up-stroke. This will destroy the bottom end of the engine. On a gasser, the timing is measured by when the power is sent to the spark plug. But there is a delay from when the plug sparks to when the explosion happens. The spark begins the ignition of the fuel, but the explosion is delayed dependant on the octane of the fuel, the compression of the cylinder and temperature of the engine. If you advance the timing on a gasser too much, you get the same thing with the piston being hammered back on the up-stroke and that's not good for any engine.

[mhagie]

Checking mine with a Rotunda 78-0100 with lumy probe.
I would say that my years with gassers conditioned me to the BTDC timing without even thinking about ATDC, and all the postings I read never mentioned before or after so I went with before.
So it looks like I will be retarding it to
-0.06 on my Rotunda.
Thanks for your help.
Merle