-45F and my 6,2 won't start. ideas?

[libtec]

I thought that would get a couple of interested minds. Thanks for looking.

Here's the deal. The truck starts good to about minus 30F when plugged in, barely started at -40 and comes up a hair short at -45. The sad part about it is I still have to use it. It really tries to go and is kicking on a couple cylinders on every rotation but won't take off.

Everything relating to starting is new and in good woking order (batteries, starter, GP contoller) Given that the coolant and oil heaters are working, can a non operating IP cold advance solenoid produce the results I'm seeing. Does cold effect injectors that are not up to snuff?

The truck is in good working order (PSI is a little lower than perfect) and is reliable. My father in-laws 82 Sub 6.2 has 200ish PSI on all 8 cylinders and starts every time after plugging in for a couple hours. Mine is in much better condition, except for a cold weather gremlin.

If this was your situation and you were confident that the motor was capable of going, where would you look first. I'm not expecting a miracle answer, but gathering ideas for when I get some garage time to tinker. The sick part is I have to hope for the cold again so I can test any fixes I do.

Learn'n the diesel and love'n it, I just need to get my garage built. Thanks!

John.

[NH2112]

What kind of glow plugs do you have? We don't see -45F temps here but do see -30F on occasion, and my truck starts much better with its Kennedy glow plugs than it did with the 13Gs it had before. I also have no glow controller, just a toggle switch powering a relay, so I can give a good 12-15 seconds of glow when needed. If you don't mind splicing into your wiring harness, it'd be no trouble at all to hook up a manual swtch for the glow plugs. I think you'll need to tap into either wire B or D on the connector, and you'll want to put 2 diodes in the circuits to keep power on 1 leg from backfeeding the other leg.

The cold advance makes a difference, but I don't know if it's enough to keep it from starting. I can't imagine it being enough to allow it to start at -30F but not at -45F. Mine doesn't have a working cold advance and starts "fine" at cold temps as long as it's plugged in (only has 1 battery too.) When you do get it running just unplug the green wire from the side of the pump, if the advance is working you'll notice less clatter.

Edited to second TimK's point about battery blankets, I have one on my battery but generally only plug it in when it drops below 0F. I think it's about 80W, and cost about $30.

[ 01-13-2005, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: NH2112 ]

[catmandoo]

are you just plugging this in for a couple hours?if it's gonna be down -10 or so around here i plug it in all night.also i usually cycle the g-plugs a couple times before cranking.

[BARRAZA]

Holy cow!!! minus 45 :eek: :eek:

Being from the south, it's a shock that you would want to go anywhere when the temp is that low. But I'll give my 2cents anyway.

It's all about heat and building it. I would check your block heaters first. I assume they are in both sides of the block and working correctly. Do they make high output versions?

I think some cummins have an intake grid that heats the incomming air, maybe it could be adapted?

Would insulation make any sense? maybe across the top of the engine to help hold the block heater warmth in.

Glow plug changes suggested above would be quick and easy to try. I would at least check them all, one bad plug could make a difference at temp extremes.

It's possible the other diesel is starting because it is more tired, ie maybe it spins faster when cranking. Sounds like yours only needs a little help and lots of things could contribute, like battery charge, electrical cables and connections, oil viscosity, and starter health. Good luck, I'm just glad to hear that minus 40 is possible.

Last suggestion - move somewhere warmer
:D

[TimK]

I know it's a lot of money but have you thought of getting a Webasto heater for the truck? http://www.webasto.us/am/en/am_auto_heaters.html

It's my understanding these fuel fired heaters put out a lot more heat then the electric heaters. It would also allow you to preheat the engine if your not near a power receptacle. On their website they also sell other items to help warm the engine and cab. You might also consider insulating your batteries and getting an electric warmer for them. Batteries can drammaticaly lose their power output when they get cold and at -45F which is Damn Cold, you may have Damn little power coming from the batteries.

When I was growing up in Wyoming we would also have some pretty cold weather. My dad drove a diesel Land Rover (1965 Series 2a) and used to throw a heavy blanket over the top of the engine when he parked it for the night. The truck was also plugged into a Katz tank type heater. The blanket made big difference. He said it kept some of the heat in and kept the cold air from blowing across the engine. Of course those Rover engine bays were pretty drafty.

TimK

[Dezman125]

Hi
Wish it that warm here. -53F this morning,so cold i will have to warm up the snow machien befor i can go to work.I would get a heavy tarp to cover your hood and go right to the ground. Then if you have the time to watch get a tiger tourch and heat under ths enjin for 15 min otr longer.If you need it to start with out being able to watch,get one or two electric eaters to heat under the engin.Best if you had a garage to park it in even if it's not heated,it will be enough shelter for it to fire right up
Good Luck

[KEVIN MUNCASTER]

Holy Crap ! That's cold eh ! I wouldn't even venture outdoors in that. You guys are made of some tough stuff to live up there. Here in Ontario, it only gets down to -35 or so, except for rare dips to -40++.

I'm lucky enough to have several trux, and ol' stinky goes away for the cold weather.

Kev :D

[6 2 Carl]

All of the above suggestions are good. You may want to add a second block heater to help out on those really cold days. And if you haven't already I really recommend battery blankets. Your starter will spin alot faster and that may be just enough to get it going.

I also believe there is a sweet spot for the injection timing. A few years ago my grandfathers 6.2 with close to 200,000 miles and the original injection pump, was hard to start. He took it in to get it timed and the truck started better than when it was new. This truck would easily start at -25C without being plugged in, and in the summer it would fire right up without the glow plugs. Unfortunately the injection timing got changed about a year later when some other engine work was done and I was never able to find that sweet spot. The truck still starts alright, but no where near like it use to.

Carl

[Brianlar]

There are cold weather starting tips available here, and on another site I know of. Battery cables, bolts, and posts must be GOOD. No burned insulation, dirty connections, or melted posts. Next, I got 60g plugs, on a Ford relay, with a horn button. 20, seconds the first time, ten sec each time after cranking. Make sure the controller isn't fireing while cranking, cuts down crank speed. Use 5w30 or 0w30 oil, I don't care if it's synthetic or not. Put some kind of cover over the grille to stop the wind from gettin in there. Run the block heater for 5 hours. Arctic Fox told me on the phone that this is how long it takes for it to heat things up when it's really cold. Stick a hair drier into the intake tube for 30 minutes before starting to warm up the air intake. Mine starts better when I step into the go pedal when cranking. 1/4, to 3/4, some manuals say floor it. Be aware, if you do this, the engine will probably seem to run away until the excess fuel burns off. Use double, or triple dose of antigel with premium fuel, no, 1 diesel. 1000 amp batteries are a must. WD 40 is an option, but a blown engine may result. Use spareingly, spray into intake manifold while someone cranks, stop emediately after engine fires. Some people say a bit of gasoline will help, I say they are braver than me. In the temps you are talking about, I would suspect fuel gelling as the culprit. Use Power Service antigel, double the dose your using now. Covering the truck is a good idea, as well as a heater of any kind. But remember, covered or not, in those temps all internal heat will disapate within hours, without help. I would cover the truck, run the heaters over night, and use the hair drier in the morning, assuming all else is ok.

[NH2112]

I've never been a fan of putting a diesel in a heated garage in the wintertime, simply because every time you bring it inside condensation will take place in the fuel tanks. I suppose that if you topped it off on the way home, and when you got home filled it so the fuel level is just below the filler cap, you'd have no room for water in the tank. But all in all I think it's better for vehicles to stay at a constant temperature as much as possible rather than going through cold/warm cycles every day. At work I try not to bring anything inside to work on it unless I know I can let it warm completely before going back outside.

[SimonUK]

Another tip is to heat the intake charge. some diesels over here have a manifold heater which has a small amount of fuel dropped onto it. When the fuel ignites the engine is cranked and away it goes.

On some engines this is not possible and I've seen hairdryers, hot air paint strippers and heatshrink guns used in conjunction with the heaters. :D

An old Ford D series truck over here we used to use had an straight six diesel in it which never had heaters fitted :mad: and was always started in the winter with a burning diesel soaked rag held over the open inlet manifold :eek: . As soon as the engine was cranked the flames were sucked straight into the intake and the engine started first time every time :cool: . Without the rag that old Ford just didn't want to know.

Simon

[DmaxMaverick]

Originally posted by NH2112:
I've never been a fan of putting a diesel in a heated garage in the wintertime, simply because every time you bring it inside condensation will take place in the fuel tanks. I suppose that if you topped it off on the way home, and when you got home filled it so the fuel level is just below the filler cap, you'd have no room for water in the tank. But all in all I think it's better for vehicles to stay at a constant temperature as much as possible rather than going through cold/warm cycles every day. At work I try not to bring anything inside to work on it unless I know I can let it warm completely before going back outside. Your reasoning holds true, but it is not the reality. The rate at which the fuel/air in the tank changes tempurature greatly effect the amount of potential condensation, moreso than the temp. swing itself.

If you start, drive, and shut down withing a 30 minute period, and allow the truck to get to dead cold before operating again, your practice will help to prevent condensation. I doubt that is your practice.

Condensation comes from moisture suspended in the surounding air which has to be condensed into droplets and fall out of the air. Colder air suspends more moisture. Warmer, less.

To the point. As you operate your GM Diesel equipped vehicle, it heats the fuel in the tank by returning heated fuel to the tank. Over time, it will heat the entire volume of fuel in the tank. If you park outside, where it is colder (with more dense, moisture-soaked air), the temp. change is much more rapid than if you had parked the vehicle in a warmer (with less dense, less moisture-soaked air) area, like a heated garage. In the garage, the air simply has less moisture to contribute to the process, and the temp. swing is not as broad.

Bottom line. Parking outside, exposed to the elements, will increase condensation possibilities. Even an unheated garage is better than the outdoors.

Want a solution for all ocasions? Install a vent system that allows only controlled air to enter the fuel tank. A ventless fuel cap and the use of a separate vent that uses a dessicant canister to dry incoming air will do that. Same principal used on compressed shop air systems.

[NH2112]

Originally posted by DmaxMaverick:
Your reasoning holds true, but it is not the reality. The rate at which the fuel/air in the tank changes tempurature greatly effect the amount of potential condensation, moreso than the temp. swing itself.Makes sense to me for the most part, but cold air - at least the subzero cold we're talking about - is much dryer than warm air. 0F air only "holds" 1/5 as much moisture as 32F air can, and -40F air "holds" 1/40 of what 32F air does, which helps explain why the heaviest snowfall occurs when temps don't drop much below freezing. I do know that if I bring a snow-free forklift or boomlift into the warm shop (65F) on a cold day (0F), it soon has a layer of ice on it from the moisture in the warm shop air condensing and freezing on the metal.

[DmaxMaverick]

That forklift thing is a whole different story. It was not warmed up before it was moved into the shop, like your fuel tank would be. The heavy metal was probably near the ambient tempurature, below freezing. It has nothing to warm it up, other than the air around it. Same principal applies that tells us not to lick the flagpole.

Your theory about cold--less cold air is correct, but all things are not equal. The air in your tank contains warm to hot air after the engine is run up to operating temp--different principal. The moisture gets in when the tank cools down and draws the air in from the outside. More fuel in the tank reduces the amount of air it will draw in.

Whatever condensation you are seeing by parking outside will be less if you reduce the temp. swing.

Also, don't count the wind chill. I hear a lot of people comment on the wind chill factor when talking about cold weather starts. The wind chill has ZERO effect on your engine, other than carrying away the heat at a faster rate. The absolute tempurature is as low as it will get. The WCF is only "felt".

[libtec]

Wow! Thanks for all the input!

Well here is the follow up. I was able to get the Sub started after having it sitting plugged in for two days.

Even after it warmed up to 20 below I still had to use a small shot of, forgive me, starting fluid. I know, I know, bad idea. It was only a 1/4 second blast in the intake and the motor started instantly without any clacking or "bad" sounds. I hate using it as much as the next guy and it only shows it's ugly head in the most dire situations. I only did it to get the truck out of the job site parking lot and back home where I could work on it.

I ran the truck for the rest of the day and shut her down for the night. The next day there wasn't even a hint of trying to fire even after being plugged in all night at around 0 degrees. Okay two and two tells me there is a glow plug problem and by golly I'd say I'm catching on to this diesel idea, all 8 plugs were dead. I put in new 60G's and she kicked on the first revolution.

I did the mod a couple weeks ago to the glow controller where the resistor on the 12v supply extends the glow time. I guess the old plugs couldn't handle the extra stress and have been burning out since then, the extra cycling before the cold weather starts must have finished them off. This might explain why it started that morning and not that afternoon. Like I said in a previous post, I wired the resistor through a two position switch so I could use the normal glow system and only kick on the extended time in colder temps. As it is the Sub has started on the normal system without a hesitation all the way to -35F since the mew plugs. I'm glad it was that simple.

Thanks again to everyone that added their two cents. When the truck is dead, it's really cold out and you only have 1/2 an hour of daylight (lunch break) to work on it, having good sound advice on where to look at first is a life and cold finger saver.

Thanks!

John.

[6 2 Carl]

Don't worry about a little bit of starting fluid. Since all your glow plugs were burnt out, there was little chance of damage. I have used starting fluid more than a few times on my truck when my glow plug controller has quit working. I have even used fumes from a gasoline soaked rag to start my truck. This trick kept me from being stranded. Ever since then I always keep a can of starting fluid in the truck.

Carl

[SimonUK]

An old timer told me that a gentler way to start a diesel is to use deodorant instead of starting fluid. theres not as much combustibles in it so you don't get that clack when starting.

I think its butane gas thats used in some brands that allow their use.

SimonUK.

[C.K. Piquup]

Will roll-on work?Starter fluid is ok as long as you disable glow-plugs.Unless you are positive they aren`t working,you should always do this.Don`t want a short term solution to lead to a major problem.I`m surprised you can pump fuel at -45.You can cut w/kerosene if it`s that cold.

[dieselbegreat]

How does WD-40 work on a stone-cold engine with no glow plugs? I would definitely pull the connector off the controller first.