Intercooler on a Banks?

[crew84]

If I put an intercooler on a Banks system using the space between the top of the Banks intake and the hood would it work? Now my Hummer intake manifold is lower than stock. I have about 8 inches up to the insulation on the hood and 18 inches across. I have 16 inches from front to back. If I tilted an intercooler at an angle would it cool the preheated turbo air enough to lower EGTs a little. I thought using the air movement from the engine fan even if preheated from the radiator would cool it down some. Using that space would make the plumbing of it to a minimum knocking down amount of turbo lag. Okay guys tell me where I am going wrong!

[britannic]

It really needs to be in the cold airstream for best results. However, you could look into a liquid cooled intercooler - this is what Subaru use above the manifold on some of their turbo models.

[JeepSJ]

You would not get enough air flow under the hood. The underhood temps may even raise the temp of the air with the intercooler mounted under there.

Now, you could always do something like on the late-80's T-Bird turbos - they had the intercooler mounted under the hood and had a couple hood scoops that were ducted to direct the air over the intercooler. But, with it on top of your intake you may not be able to get enough flow through it.

Time to look at a ater/air unit like panhead. Speaking of panhead - any pics yet?

[crew84]

I kind of doubt the air that is being pushed past the turbo and already preheated by the exhaust temps would rise more. The stock temperature would rise using it under the hood only the amount of the heat drawn from the radiator. Since it, the air through the turbo, already is preheated under load beyond the amount of heat the radiator puts out. I have read that the water cooled intercoolers use radiator water. Would not 50 degrees less in inlet temps change EGTs. Because right now there is not any transfer of heat in the system. If the surface area is increased and is cooler than the over 250+ degrees the turbo air can be means any transfer of heat should be good.

[EWC]

I'd have to agree with you Crew . Any drop in the air temp would be good , especially if you are fighting high EGT's . With 8 inches of under hood clearance , you may have enough air volume to have some air flow over the IC to have an impact on the air charge . With the Banks system layout I would think you could mount and run the IC and tubes without too much trouble . You could also do the old trick of putting a few washers between the hood and hinge to get some space between the rear of the hood and the body to get more air flow out of the engine compartment .

[britannic]

It's not recommended to use engine heated coolant for an after/intercooler, a separate radiator is used instead. The issue is heat soak, which is why an after/intercooler is usually designed to short bursts, sustained boost requires the measures that Banks used on their world speed record Cummins Dakota; they used an ice tank with a liquid cooled after/intercooler.

If the air to air intercooler gets heated by the engine because of its position during low boost, then the incoming air will take on the additional heat to a point and then it will heat soak, because of the lack of air.

I'm basing my comments on the research conducted by A. Graham Bell, who wrote an excellent book with a chapter on this very topic:

"Forced Induction Performance Tuning A Practical Guide to Supercharging and Turbocharging"

[Dieselboy]

The more we talk about intercoolers on the older body style, the more a regular front mounted Dodge Cummins intercooler makes sense. There's no way to get around the custom fab work for any setup, and the Cummins intercoolers are easy to get a hold of at a good price. It would really work best if we could duplicate a one piece radiator+intercooler+AC condenser+oil cooler+trans cooler like the Dmaxes use.

I've got a chance at snagging an intercooler from a DT466. It's a similar sytle to the Dodge Cummins intercoolers. I'm going to go over and get some rough dimensions in a few days, and I'll post them here if it helps.

[crew84]

Right now there is not any cooling of the air going into the intake manifold. The short steel tube from the Banks turbo to the manifold box does nothing to cool the air. It just reaches a soak temperature. If a intercooler as I stated was mounted and used it would cool the air some though not efficiently. The surface area in the intercooler and its material could not help but disperse some heat. I think the issue to me is not the debate about the right way to intercool the Banks completely. I am looking at a way to lower EGTs about 100 degrees in my setup. I can live with the power output right now with my engine. It is not a screamer. The EGTs under load just need lowering to be safe. Putting in an intercooler with all its plumbing in an area that could be efficient to cool it has been discussed before for the Banks. The turbo lag would be too great to be useful.

[JeepSJ]

What is your intake air temp right now? What are your underhood temps? The efficiency of your design will be totally dependant on those numbers. If your IAT is 250 degrees, and your underhood temp is 250 degrees, then you will have zero effect. I would definitely measure those numbers first.

Also keep in mind that the intercooler is going to heat soak when you shut down the engine, and it make take quite a while for it to cool back down enough to start operating again.

How about something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33741&item=2459241116
This is probably a little too small, but you get the idea.

This brings up another question about intercooler size... How many CFM? I know how to calc that for a NA engine - anyone have the formula to calculate CFM for a turbo engine?

[ 02-10-2004, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: JeepSJ ]

[grape]

front mounted intercoolers work........just takes lots of cutting. Mine now has a powerstroke aluminum cooler mounted in front of one of my old superspeedway C&R radiators. The powerstroke intercooler will only allow a 31" wide radiator between the inlet and outlet tubes.

[Peter J. Bierman]

The nissan patrol GR turbodiesel has the intercooler right under the hood and is cooled by the air picked up by the hoodscoop.
It is not a big scoop, just enough to do the job and look cool. :cool:
If you go the way you are discribing, I would create a layer off insulation between the engine and the IC to prevent going the other way around and force some air from the fan through the IC to get some airflow.
On construction equipment, watercooled intercoolers are often used.
Using a seperate pump and sucking coolant from the bottom side off the radiator.
This is a good reliable setup but takes some plumming.

But a question, if you are satisfied with power level and "it is not a screamer", why worry about turbo lag? ( just curious :D )

Peter

[crew84]

Turbo lag can be irritating. :mad: As a driver it would test me. My power that my truck puts out could be better. It was great when my IP DB2-4267 was turned up. It did not smoke but ETGs were instantly high at WOT. When I turned it down so the EGTs were totally under control at WOT it was a dog. I mean it ran like it was N/A. So I turned it up so 1100 degrees was the max it could go unloaded. The PWR air to water intercooler looks interesting and it is rated for 1000 CFM. The water circulating/cooling kit and the 6"round x 10" long with the 3" diameter inlet/outlet would fit nicely in line with the straight pipe from the turbo. I just can not afford $1,100.+ for it. I been trying to find it cheaper. I can tell that there is a pretty good mark up on it since the Aussies make it and there is a restrictive dealership.

[JeepSJ]

You don't need to buy the whole kit. The intercooler alone is $610 (http://www.absoluteradiator.com/Intercoolers.asp). Yeah, that is still a lot of money, but I'll bet you can get the rest of the peices locally for a lot less than the $500 extra they are charging for the kit.

[britannic]

If your boost is consistently under 14psi, there won't be that much benefit from an intercooler. Another complication is overboosting a turbo beyond it's efficiency envelope can result in overheated air and adding an intercooler won't help much for that scenario.

The oversized turbo that Banks supplies for the 6.2L produces relatively cool air at pressures between 1-12psi, but it only adds useful boost above 2500rpm, hence my switching to a Banks 6.9L Ford wastegated turbo.

[Ratau]

On the new Isuzu 300 TDI the IC is mounted under the hood with a hoodscoop like the Nissan Peter is talking about.

Here in Pretoria are a couple of Isuzu 280DT with intercoolers cooled by the air conditioner compressor. Apparently the air is cooled down to below filter intake temperature.

Danie

[crew84]

It looks like the only way to tell if an intercooler would help with EGTs would be to measure the temperature of the air after it leaves the turbo under load and into the manifold box. I have two plugged pipe threaded holes in the manifold box which I could run a temp gauge. I will find a gauge and test it.

[Peter J. Bierman]

Keep us posted on your test results.

Peter

[84 Convert]

Well, I guess I'll toss his out, since I'm thinking of it. How 'bout a cowl induction hood with an air box built up to it with the IC inside and a electric fan to put air through it? Lotsa work, I know, but it sounds like most IC options will be. By the way, crew84 I love your truck and only hope mine can be as nice someday!

Gregg