Banks Turbo alternatives - Help grape

[BARRAZA]

The last major piece I need for my Turbo install is the turbo itself. Banks wants about $900. :eek: I have read every archived topic about turbos and looked at compressor maps until I'm cross-eyed and still cant decide.
Some people complain of low boost with the banks 6.2, britannic said his would go to 15psi. It is thought that Cummins sized Holsets won't work, then some one installs one and gets good results.
In previous posts, grape detailed what he was using, but I'm not looking for that much power, ie he was expecting near 300hp and needed 40lbs/min @ 1.8-2.0 pressure ratio. I don't have that much confidence in the 6.2 bottom end. I am looking for 30lbs/min at a max of 1.8 pressure ratio. I know common wisdom says use a MHI-TE06H from a banks ford kit, but every one I have seen for sale is quickly bid up over what a new comparable turbo will cost, except the one I found off a burnt f250, but I'm not going to touch that one.

Of course no compressor maps are available for any of the banks turbos so it is impossible to spec something exactly like either one. This isn't rocket science, but I dont want to waste money on the wrong unit.

Anyone have suggestions??

[Peter J. Bierman]

Two garrett's M27 :D

Peter

[JeepSJ]

I still think that a Holset HX-35W would be OK. There are all kinds of aftermarket wheels and housings for those, and you can find the turbos fairly cheap. If I hadn't stumbled onto this MHI unit (or been able to negotiate down to 1/2 the asking price), then I'd probably have a 35W in there right now.

[BARRAZA]

Daan is the one here with the Holset HX35. He reported good results but haven't heard any updates since his install a few months ago. I haven't found any holset maps, but I did see a chart comparing holset models and the hx35w fit into the 180 to 250hp range(approx). Probably about where I would like to be,ie over 400ftlbs. But Daan had somewhat odd EGT's, his comment was "Stepping on it, 2800 RPM 12 psi EGT 600/700 then the wategate opens." Seems very low, maybe he'll see this thread and update us with his experiences. In the same thread, britannic commented that the hx35w was capable of 35psi, if thats correct, our 6-12psi needs would be falling off the bottom of the compressor map. :confused:

[grape]

a T76 moves enough air in the 75% efficiency range to make 480 hp at a 2.0 pressure ratio. :D
what exhaust manifold do you plan on using? If it's a stock GM you could buy a 60-1 like mine made by a brazilian company. I think for around 500 bucks you can get a 60-1 with a euro housing with whatever A/R you want and a p trim exhaust wheel. There is a guy over in Georgia who has sold the crap out of those things to the mustang guys.

[BARRAZA]

grape
I'm using a banks manifold. If I'm reading the maps correctly, a 60-1 is capable of nearly 60lbs/min. Will it be able to make any boost at low rpms? ie 1200 to 2000, or will it fall off the bottom of the chart? I really think something a little smaller and with an internal wastegate would better fit my needs. Any suggestions?

[grape]

all depends on the exhaust housing that you use. The 60-1 will move way more air at the same shaft speed that the banks ever thought about moving. This is what made the banks not the best choice, the exhuast A/R was way to big to get the turbine and shaft spinning quick enough in the rpm range. I went from a 1.0 (banks T3 inlet which is small) to a .68 T4 flanged exhaust housing which just gives the exhaust a bigger mechanical advantage on the turbine. Yes the 60-1 will move almost 60 lbs per minute, but that is maxed out total flow at almost 24 pounds of boost, to the point where it is way ineficient up there. You have to start all turbo projects with total amount of boost you plan to run and total amount of hp you plan to make, you can then pick and choose. The 60-1 has a great surge line for a diesel application, as in it's virtually straigt up, hence the get the boost up quick and leave it at the same total amount of pressure from about 1800 rpm till the rev limiter. Just for example if you follow the 60-1 map at the 20 lbs per minute mark........look over at the pressure ratio of 1.4 which is just shy of 6 lbs. At that point you are moving enough air for 160 hp which we all know is attainable without any boost at all.......so guess what, no smoke and cooler egt's. At that point we still aren't in the prime efficiency range but we are still over 70% which is great. Now at the same 20 lbs/min mark go all the way up to 1.8 pressure ratio which is still to the right of the surge line. That means I can have the compressor spun all the way up to making almost 12 lbs of boost at the identical 160 hp point in the engines rpm range without surging the compressor. I know nothing about when fuel comes in on the injection pumps so I don't know when 160 hp's worth of fuel is available, but i was told that my pump is full fuel by 2000 engine rpm. At least this turbo gives me the flexability of moving boost in real quick to catch up with the fuel if needed. I may end up going smaller on the exhaust housing yet, I'm not sure. I finally got one of the gm series turbos in my hand and all i can say is wow.....minimization at it's best.

The problem you are going to have with internally wastegated housings is that they are all T3 based which has a tiny exhaust wheel and a tiny diameter wastegate. The small exhaust wheel and housing of the T3 would be great except you'd have to have two external wastegates on the crossover pipe somewhere so you didn't choke the whole exhaust system up, which is why the 6.5 guys complain about high egt's........it could be avoided. If I owned a 6.5 truck I'd weld the factory wastegate shut and put an external gate capable of moving enough air past the turbine wheel in the crossover pipe.

[Daan]

Barraza, since I 'finished' the install I haven't got the chance to do some serious testing. Changed a leaking rear main seal, fixed an oil leak at the lift pump, finished the 4" exhaust and did some body work(on the truck :D ).
I also advanced the IP a tiny bit.
Plan is to return it to my daily driver this week or the next.
But, when I read your post I did some test runs.
After 'take off' the pyrometer climbs up, barely touches the 800 and then drops to 700/650. When the tachometer reaches 2600/2700RPM, intake pressure is 12 psi, wastegate opens.. At this point EGT's still read 700.
So far I didn't have the guts to speed up to 3600RPM redface.gif
Now the exhaust is finished, I really can't see a lot of black smoke, so i suppose I could turn up the pump 1/8 more, wich would give me higher EGT's.
I'm no expert, but I think this Holset works great on my 6.2. I'll post a true update soon.

[BARRAZA]

grape
All the figures sound great but I sure wish you had yours up and running for some real world results. I guess my confusion centers around how to insure you get enough exhaust turbine speed to get up onto the map, and where you are on the map. Maybe I'm making this harder than it is. I would think that you would want to use a compressor so that when you are making your max power, you would be near the right side and as far up as you wanted to go in pressure ratio. All the extra compressor capacity above my needs will just require more wastegate capacity won't it?

Also, I'm not really looking for more power than the banks or GM turbos, just a good compromise between boost at low rpm and not running out of breath at the top. In fact, I wouldn't mind trying a GM 6.5 turbo, but from the pictures I have seen, it doesn't look like the outlet will allow room for an exhaust pipe when it is mounted on a banks manifold. The banks turbo for the 6.2 is about $900 to my door which is pretty expensive considering a T3/T04 hybrid spec'd like you want it can be had for about half that much. Or a used GM turbo or Holset for even less on ebay.

Daan
Wow, I just looked at your pictures, fabing an exhaust manifold from scratch makes me appreciate the deal I got on the banks manifold. I would think that when you turn up the fuel, the increase in exhaust heat will build your boost at a lower rpm. Do you know how big the wastegate is on the holset? I wonder if it will be able to bypass enough exhaust to control boost in the upper rpm range with a heavy load. Where is your pyrometer attached?

[dieseldummy]

Like Daan, I to am using a Holset. Mine is a WH1C, which is basicly the same as a HX35. I am running boost more to the tune of 20 psi though. I currently have the fuel rate on my DB2-4911 IP maxed out. During full throtle exceleration runs I can get my egt up to 1000 degrees. Towing it will run a constant 1100. The Holset will give you quick boost off the line, and pulls strong clear through 3600+ rpms. I personally have tried various turbos ranging from a couple Garretts to an M&W off of a tractor. If I had Grape's intelligence I would have kept trying with the Garretts, but I have neither the patience or mental capacity to figure out the details. So all I can say is, do what you feel more comfortable with, I found the Holset to be cheaper, but to each there own. I can't wait until Grape get his machine going, it should be great. :cool:
Justin

[grape]

I can't wait either, it's been 7 months since I've driven the "bat mobile" as it's affectionately known by my family and friends.

[john8662]

OK! I can't stand it anymore!!! What are you building grape?

:D

[Daan]

Don't know the dimensions of the wastegate on this turbo.. Can't find them on the net either.
My pyro is mounted in the crossover just below where it's connected to the drivers side manifold. Should give reliable readings.

[Ratau]

Grape

Do you have an external waste gate on the .68 T4 turbine?

A local turbo guy told me to go for .68 T4 P-trim turbine, 1

[Ratau]

Daan

At what rpm do you start getting boost?

Danie.

[grape]

[quote]Originally posted by Ratau:
[b] Grape

Do you have an external waste gate on the .68 T4 turbine?

A local turbo guy told me to go for .68 T4 P-trim turbine, 1

[Daan]

Normal driving, boost starts to build up at 1400 RPM.

[Daan]

BTW, according to this site:
http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/FAQ/turbo_faq.htm
the wastegate on the HX-35W is about 1".

[grape]

well, i think the only way i could post pics was in my signature. let me know if the link works or not.

[john8662]

Grape, cool looking project!! I like the color red for your engine, and the nice big turbo.

[grape]

new ones up of the downpipe now complete down under the truck.

[arveetek]

Excellent job! This ought to perform much better than the Banks system that you so disliked!

What are you going to do about the a/c evaporator, or are you going to leave the a/c off the finished truck?

Casey

[grape]

vintage air makes a kit to fit our bodystyle trucks that leaves the firewall smooth with only the dryer on the engine side of the firewall.

[BARRAZA]

Well, I have given up on getting the perfect turbo, mainly because there's not much agreement on what the perfect turbo is. So instead, I picked up a Holset hx35w which is probably close enough. I figure I can get a half dozen of these holsets for the price that banks wants for the 6.2 turbocharger, and it's still less than a quarter of what I saw a banks TE06H go for recently on ebay. I just want an alternative to a small block that gets decent mileage and is dead nuts reliable, not a hot rod, so I think it will do. My install will take a while because it also involves an engine swap, but I will report how it works when I'm done. I will be replacing a 383 small block in a 4x4 truck and will try to get some before and after performance numbers also.