Pulling my engine out tomorrow. UPDATE: Bad news!

[arveetek]

Well, I got the shop cleaned up, borrowed my buddy's engine hoist, and pulled the truck into the shop tonight. It's all set for me to start pulling the engine out first thing in the morning.

I'm not really looking forward to doing this too much. In my younger days, I used to be able to pull an engine out in my parent's back yard in the dirt, in the cold, into the late hours of the night, and really enjoy it. Now I have a nice concrete floor, heated shop, and it doesn't seem as easy to do anymore! I've pulled quite a few engines, but I haven't done so for about 3 years. Getting a little rusty I think...

Gee, from that paragraph, you'd think I was approaching retirement age or something. In case you were wondering, I'm turning 29 in April! :eek:

Anyway, just as a refresher, I'm going to be pulling the heads, replacing the lifters, installing new head gaskets, replacing the timing chain with the dual idler gears, installing new water pump, pulling the pan for inspection, installing the stud girdle kit (which I hope arrives by Monday!), replacing rear main seal, replacing any other gaskets as needed, installing new Energy Suspension motor mounts in the truck, installing new hood blanket on the underside of the hood, and finally, putting it all back together! Whew! Hopefully it won't take too long. I hate it when my truck is down for whatever reason.

Wish me luck!

Oh, I will be taking pics, in case anyone is interested.

Casey

[ 02-28-2005, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: arveetek ]

[a5150nut]

You'll know you are getting old when you start to understand the noises your dad makes..... ;)

[CleviteKid]

Hey Casey, you have a few good years left in you.

My DAUGHTER is a year older than you are, but I will always be:

The Clevite KID :cool:

[arveetek]

Well, I've got the engine out and mounted to my engine stand. Wasn't too bad of a job. Only took me 6 hours from start to finish, and that was 6 relaxed hours with several breaks! ;) No need in working TOO hard on a Saturday, now is there? tongue.gif

I was fairly proud of the fact that I started lifting the engine and the only item I had forgotten to take loose was the block heater. The cord was tie-wrapped to the frame, so all I had to do was cut a few straps and out she came. I had remembered to undo everything else. I guess that comes with knowing my truck extremely well!

Tomorrow afternoon I plan on tearing the engine down and seeing what I find. Perhaps I can start putting the engine back in on Monday. I miss my truck already! :cool:

Casey

[jonflies]

Did you order your stud girdle kit from, Kennedy or DSG? I'll be interested to see how long it takes to arrive, as I just place my order to Canada, and didn't realize Kennedy has them stateside. Could have saved some time through customs.

[arveetek]

Jon, I ordered my stud girdle kit directly from DSG....seemed to be a few dollars cheaper, but with shipping costs, it may have come out about the same.

Casey

[arveetek]

Well, I got my engine torn down today. I was pleased to find that my diagnosis was correct and that the exhaust lifter on # 4 was collapsed. All the other lifters were fine, but I could move the exhaust rocker on # 4 quite a bit, and it was very loose. I could lift the rocker tip off the valve by nearly 1/4". I was surprised, however, to discover that the bad lifter was on the passenger side...I was sure it was on the driver's side.

I'm also pleased to report that my block is crack free! I can definitely see why these blocks have a tendency to crack. The center main bearing webs are certainly quite small, aren't they? I checked my spare engine when I tore it down a few days ago, and it is also crack free. Both blocks are 82 models. Perhaps this upholds the theory that the 82 blocks are stronger?

I did find that the oil pump pickup tube was broken; the screen assembly had broken off the tube. I'm not sure how long that it has been this way.

I do have the cylinder heads with the extra coolant passages, so I believe I'll go with the 6.2L gaskets....I just don't want to take any chances of having any leaks when I put it all back together.

I measured 11/16" of play in the timing chain...it's very sloppy!

I haven't pulled any bearing caps for inspection yet, but I will. Everything else looks pretty good.

I can't wait to start putting it all back together and running again! :D

Casey

[84 Convert]

Lucky you! ...no cracked piston crowns like I found when my engine came apart after leaky head gaskets. I'll be intersted to find out how high my EGTs get. Yours before the turbo were up to 1400 right? Good luck on the project I sure hope it goes faster than mine did.

If you're still a spring chicken, I guess that makes me a winter chicken... turned that magic 29 in Dec. '04. I totally understand the feeling old(er) thing.


Gregg

[john8662]

Casey,

I was worried that you'd find cracks on your block being that you really work your engine and that you have a turbo on it. Whew, thats great news, for all of us 6.2 guys! Yeah, the main web's are small, not width, but depth, some of them hardly have any area attaching to the block rails. I can see why this engine should have been a deep skirt design, hindsight is 20/20 for GM. Anyways, I was going to go ahead and recommend the newer style oil pickup tube and screen since you're there and in need of one. Its the same screen used on the early 6.5's (before 1997). I think it has the potential to grab more oil, but the older design has the tendancy to not suck as much junk up. But you keep your engine really clean inside anyways right? Have fun, you're faster than I am!

[arveetek]

Gregg,

Yes, my engine in n/a form produced 1300 to 1400 degrees for hours on end when towing my RV. I even saw it spike past 1400 on a few long grades. After installing the turbo, EGT's haven't gone past 1050.

John,

Yeah, I was kind of anxious myself on what I might find. This engine has had the snot worked out of it, with many hours and hours of pulling just as hard as it can with my foot buried to the floor. It doesn't look like all that hard work as affected it any, though.

Gotta love the 6.2L!

Casey

[arveetek]

Well, I was a little premature with my last comments there.

I got to looking at the piston in hole # 3, and I noticed a shiny spot on the bottom side that looked like a chunk was broken off. Upon closer inspection, I realized that the piston edge had been burning/melting. I took that piston out, and the second compression ring was broken in two. :( Also, it seemed like the pistons were a little sloppy in the bores.

I decided to go ahead and remove all the pistons, but I didn't find any more broken rings. Piston # 2, however, was also showing signs of burning/melting. A couple of other pistons were justing starting to burn as well.

I decided to check the top compression ring end gap clearances. At the top of the cylinder, the end gap was .043" and at the bottom of the cylinder was .037". This is well outside the gap limit of .021" and well outside the taper limit of .0008". Looks like it's time for boring and oversized pistons.

Rats. :( I was not planning on a full rebuild. It had crossed my mind about rebuilding the spare engine I had and then just swapping them out in order to save me down time. But I didn't want to spend the money on a full rebuild that I knew the spare needed. Now it looks like I should have done that anyway.

At least the bearings looked like new!

Casey

[arveetek]

After checking around on prices for pistons and rings, I realized that Peninsular's 19:1 pistons weren't that much more expensinve. However, I called them and found out they only come in standard sizes. Outta luck there.

This is looking to get rather expensive! Initial costs for pistons, rings, and boring is $740. That doesn't include any other work that should be done like new cam bearings, and perhaps rebuilding the heads.

Crud. This isn't what I had planned at all. Sure is Monday!

I can see now why the engine was smoking. With the worn out timing chain and broken compression ring on # 3, it wasn't running at its best. Funny thing is, I thought it was running pretty good!

I didn't bore it when I overhauled it 9 years ago. I just re-ringed it and installed new bearings. Oh well, I guess I shouldn't complain too much. This truck and engine has been very faithful to me over the last 9 years and 120K miles.

I'm just wishing very much now that I had just rebuilt my spare and swapped 'em out!

I think I'm going to tear the spare engine down and see what kind of shape it's in. I know the cylinders are rusty, but I don't know much more than that. I'm thinking I might want to use that block instead. The starter ear on my current engine was broken when I got it. I had it welded and repaired, but I think it's off just a bit. The starter has always ground really bad no matter what I did. The other block is crack-free and hasn't had the starter ear broken off.

Oh, decisions decisions!

Casey

[john8662]

Casey,

Thats exactly what I always run into when I tear into something it seems. Do you mind posting pictures of the piston that was melting? I am putting an engine back together for a "work truck" that has cylinder #3 with a missing piece off the bottom/top of the piston. I dismissed it because of what i was going to use the engine for, maybe I should of pulled that piston out, hmm. Anyways some pictures of the collapsed lifter and piston & broke ring would be appreciated!

[arveetek]

John,

I've been taking pictures and I'll try and get them uploaded tonight. I don't have a pic of the lifter, because a collapsed lifter looks just like a good one. Only way that you can tell it's messed up is that when you push down on the center of it, it goes way down farther than it's supposed to.

I got the spare engine tore apart, but it's in the same shape....worn, tapered cylinders. I was hoping that it might possibly have good, standard size cylinders that I could just hone out and use as is. No such luck. Oh, well.

Looks like boring and installing oversize pistons is in my future!

Casey

[john8662]

Casey,

sounds good, I'm interested to see. I have a few blocks sitting around that are the same shape as yours, all need a good boring, they all have a decent ridge ring. Thats news about the 19:1 pistons, I was keeping a few of these 6.2 blocks around just for that purpose, but they all are going to need at the minimum a .020 piston. You might call Kennedy and see if he can make you a set of 19:1 or 18:1 for a 6.2 with his dish design pistons. Keep us posted!

[arveetek]

Yeah, Kennedy can make me some low comp pistons, but they're mighty pricy.

He did let me know he can get stock compression pistons, though, so that's good news.

Sorry, but I didn't get around to uploading the pics yet, perhaps tomorrow.

I'm going to take both blocks to the machine shop on Wednesday and see which one they think will clean up best.

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of the extra work on my engine....I was just really torqued that my plan on being down for just a few days got suddenly extended to a couple of weeks! But, I'll have a much better engine as a result.

Casey

[john8662]

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with your freshened up engine, with all 8 contributing after the overhaul. From what you've seen so far with using stock compresion, I think that it would be best to stay stock. I don't think that the lower compression pistons would be worth while in your situation, you haven't had any head gasket failures.

I hate being down too, my 6.5 for my 95 is at The Diesel Depot, I would have put the engine together myself if it wasn't for SO many incompetent machine shops locally. They all absolutly freaked out when I suggested splaying the main webs, besides not wanting to mess with the engine in general because it was a 6.5. I can't wait to get my 95 back together with a new upgraded engine, but I'll be in the hole pretty deep, but you only live once :D

[ 02-28-2005, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: john8662 ]

[arveetek]

Woohoo! Things are looking up!

I talked to Benny at The Diesel Depot this morning, and he suggested that, with my particular turbo setup, that I go with some custom 20:1 ceramic coated pistons. These are slightly lower than the stock 21.5:1 pistons. The best part is, he quoted me a heck of a good price for 8 custom pistons, including rings and ceramic coatings! Let's just say it's considerably less than what my local auto supply wanted for stock pistons.

He suggested that I have the block decked and squared up, bored, and then call him back with the measurements so that he can mill the pistons to the right height. Talk about great service!

Now my mood has changed from being disgusted to getting excited! tongue.gif

Benny said that 18:1 pistons are good for the 6.5L, but he prefers 20:1 pistons for the 6.2L. Not too high, not too low. Better driveability and good starting, but not "hammering" so hard, as he puts it.

Casey

[john8662]

Thats great news, Benny had mentioned to me over the phone that he could do any compression ratio that I wanted, or he could make sure that when I wanted 18:1 for the 6.5 that all cylinders were 18:1 not differing. I think one more selling point of the 18:1 (or lower that stock) was the lack of hammering, that the engine will run more consistant (once you get it started). The 6.2 and 6.5 have always sounded somewhat inconsistant to me with the uneven knocks and clacks it sometimes makes, its never just smooth like a DC or a PSD.

[Peter J. Bierman]

I have my home made 19:1 pistons in for a few years now and did not ever experiance any hard start what so ever.
Last night it was like -10 C and just after a normal glow cycle it started right up.
Good starter and glowplugs are the key here I think.

Just so you know first hand ;)

Peter

[mpascino]

Peter, how much did you take off the top of your stock pistons and how many miles have you put on them? Did you have them coated and if so was the coating thick enough to raise the compression back up?
Thanks,
Mike

[arveetek]

I got my block completely torn down and ready to take to the machine shop tomorrow. I decided to use my current block for a couple of reasons. First, it's an actual '82 block, with a date stamped on the rear deck of March of 81. It was also originally painted red. The other block had a date of September of 82. It was also originally painted black. That means it's actually an '83 block. Even though both blocks are crack free, I know that my current block has been run hard for 9 years and is still crack free. I don't know about the other one. It may not hold up as well, it's hard to say.

I also noticed on the '83 block that it had a flat spot cast into the block right above the passenger side water pump hole. On that flat spot it says "GM 6.2L." My '82 block doesn't have that flat area. This also lends to the idea that the '82 blocks are different.

The only reason I was thinking of swapping was the starter issues, but I've lived with that for 9 years, so I guess I can deal with it.

Casey

[dieseldummy]

Maybe while the block is at the machine shop they could machine the mount for the starter and make it true again? Also if your machine shop has a lathe they can cut pistons down however much you want, all you have to do is coat them, but if you can get a better deal from the diesel depot then that is probably a better route.

[arveetek]

I don't think there's any way I could beat DD's deal! Not on the prices I've found just for pistons. Add machine work and coatings, and it get's pricey quite fast.

I've uploaded some pics of my progress. I have more pics to post yet, but this is a good start:

http://community.webshots.com/album/286393940AoOzqp

Here is a pic of the damaged piston that led me to my complete rebuild; sorry it's not better quality:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/286393940/286420409QqmfHy

I'll continue to update this album as I go along.

Casey

[john8662]

Casey,

thanks for the pics, I just wanted to compare. I think the messed up piston on my engine I'm putting together just ate a glow plug or something, but took a chunk out of the bottom of the piston. I'll let er run and see how it goes. Yeah, your piston was melted, do you think this is a result of the turbo, or has this been like this for awhile?

[Peter J. Bierman]

Mike,

I took off 1MM ( calulations bring it to 19:1 )
They are not coated.
Milage is know like 10000 with 15 psi boost, 300HP pump and hi flow injectors.

I need to ad: I don't tow, there are no mountains here and we have a moderate climate
( -10 to +30 C).
This is not a work truck but a hobby project.
However, I do not beleive, that lowering compression like I did, harms the engine in any way.It's even a very good starter. :D

Peter

[arveetek]

Originally posted by john8662:
Casey,
Yeah, your piston was melted, do you think this is a result of the turbo, or has this been like this for awhile? I can only surmise from the fact that the melted area was shiny, while the rest of the combustion chamber was black from soot, that it was recent damage. But it also could have been from the miles and miles of hard 1400 degree towing I did in n/a form as well. It's really hard to say. Whatever the cause, hopefully lower compression ceramic-coated pistons will prevent any further issues.

Casey

[john8662]

Casey,

In all reality, the last time I saw a "burned" piston it wasn't from the heat, but a washed injector, I'd take the time to check that injector thourally.

[arveetek]

I talked to the shop today and found out they had to bore it .030" over to get the cylinders cleaned up. They also decked it, and are ready to install the cam bearings. Should have it ready to pick up on Monday.

Now I have to decide whether to have the rotating assembly balanced. It will cost $150, and they'll balance the crank, rods, flexplate, etc. I'm rapidly running out of funds on a project I didn't actually intend to do. Whaddya think? Is balancing worth the money?

Casey

[mhagie]

Casey, It is money well spent,I had a 83 OLDS 5.7 that I rebuilt.
It was decked,heads trued, and balanced, eveyone that rode in it said that they had never seen a 5.7 that ran that good.
To me it was worth it.............Merle

[arveetek]

I ordered my pistons this morning. Benny said they'll offset the wrist pin location by .010" to compensate for having the block decked, and then they'll shave off another .010" to lower the compression, and then they'll ceramic-coat 'em to top it all off. They had to order the .030" over pistons, but should have them by Wednesday, and then hopefully have them ready to ship by the end of the week.

Compression ratio should be somewhere between 19.75:1 to 20:1.

Casey

[arveetek]

I just thought I'd update ya'll on my engine progress. I can't really call it progress at this time, I'm still chasing down parts and trying to figure out which direction to go!

I have the block back sitting on my stand. I dropped the original '82 heads off last week. Well, turns out they're pretty shot. Exhaust valves need to be replaced, as well as all guides, the cracks between the valves need to be sleeved, and then both heads need to be resurfaced. Total cost to fix both '82 heads would be $650. Plus, there are cracks which are "questionable."

I didn't realize that rebuilding these heads was such an expensive proposition. So I called and placed a 'hold' on my piston order, so I could decide for sure what to do. My uncle has an '86 Chevy van with a replacement 6.5L n/a with only 30,000 miles on it that he has talked about selling. His original 6.2L threw a rod a few years ago, so he had a brand-new 6.5L installed in it's place. I called and talked to him yesterday, but he wants $1800 for the whole truck. The body is falling apart around the engine. It's probably a good deal, but I might as well spend the money and end up with a brand-new high-performance 6.2L with ceramic-coated pistons than have a used, stock 6.5L.

So, I dropped off my spare set of '83 heads yesterday. Only problem with going to the '83 heads is that I would have to buy new injectors to go in them. My '82 coarse-thread injectors won't fit. However, it wouldn't be a bad idea to upgrade to the newer heads so I would be able to use any kind of injectors I wanted. The '82 models left me with few options.

Well, the shop just called me again, and said the '83 heads are better, but one head has severe rust damage on the exhaust side of the head, so I might have exhaust leak problems. Cost to fix these heads would be about $450 to $500, but then that leaves questionable exhaust ports.

I can't mix and match the heads because of the injector issues.

So, my uncle still has his original blown 6.2L engine in his garage. It should have a good set of heads on it. I think it had less than a 100K miles on it when it threw a rod. I can have it for $50.

Surely out of three sets of heads I can come up with a good pair!

Looks like the cheapest reman heads I can find would run about $650 a pair and goes up from there.

I talked to Benny Avant about the C heads vs. J heads, and 6.2L heads vs. 6.5L, and he said that while the later 6.5L turbo precups will give you a slight power increase, there really aren't enough changes in the various head types to really make much difference. He said you might as well use what you have.

So, that's where I'm at right now. The pistons are on the way, and I need to take the '86 heads to the shop and see what they look like. Hopefully they'll be pretty good.

It looks like as of now that I'll have around $2500 in this rebuild before it's all over.

The four most expensive words in history? "You might as well!" If I get new injectors, I might as well have the pump refreshed. If I get new pistons, I might as well get them ceramic-coated. If I'm replacing the timing chain, I might as well install the dual idler gears, etc., etc.

Oh well, I'll have one high-performance rig when I'm done!

My wife and I are heading to Keystone, Colorado tomorrow evening for a ski trip. So, I'll have to wait until I get back before I can go much further.

Looks like my truck will be down for at least another couple of weeks.

Casey

[john8662]

I understand the heads problem! I have three engines in pieces in the shop because I was looking for one set of heads that were decent, luckily the third engine had a set that were good. I guess another saying that gets pretty expensive too is "Since You're There"

$2,500 isn't that bad though, for a better than new engine (hopefully)!

[arveetek]

I've updated my photo album with some new pics of the freshly machined block:

http://community.webshots.com/album/286393940AoOzqp/1

Casey

[20050420|7|006071|000022|69.19.2.78]

Casey, very nice pics smile.gif

[BARRAZA]

I am biased, but what you might consider is this

http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=000356

I meet you halfway.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

When I replaced the engine in my 82 a long time ago, I looked at it this way: I spent $1650 for a boneyard 6.2 & my neighbor installing it - $1650 was my total cost. If it died in one month, that was an expensive engine. If it died in a year, it cost me $137.50 per month - a LOT less than car payments.

Don't get me wrong, fixing vehicles involves tough choices if the budget is limited. But, maybe the above will help.

Blessings!

Brian Johnson, # 5044

[arveetek]

Things are coming together!

The heads on the '86 engine checked out to be in pretty good shape. The shop called this morning and said they're ready to be picked up. They installed new exahust valve guides, sleeved all the water passages between the valves, did a valve grind job, installed new seals, and resurfaced the heads.

My pistons arrived this morning! Brand-new .030" over lower-compression ceramic-coated pistons from the Diesel Depot.

I also received a new extra-deep sump oil pan from Rick Meyer. This will allow my engine to hold extra oil for better cooling and longer life.

I have most of the parts together so that now I can start reassembly soon. All I have left to sort out is the injectors and injection pump questions.

I'm definitely going to spring for new 6.5L turbo injectors. I just can't decide whether to keep using my current 4126 pump as is (was working great, has 120K since rebuild), or have it rebuilt now by Tim at Accurate Diesel for $215. I could also have him upgrade it to 4911 specs for another $250. Decisions decisions!

I'll be so glad when all this is behind me! :D

Casey

[Robyn]

GEEEEEEZ 29 and complaining????
I am 53 now and really dont like pulling engines too much any more but I just started a Humvee replica project and am installing a 6.2 in it.
Your not old till you cant get out from under your project without help or a power creeper.

[wthif]

Originally posted by arveetek:
I'm definitely going to spring for new 6.5L turbo injectors. I just can't decide whether to keep using my current 4126 pump as is (was working great, has 120K since rebuild), or have it rebuilt now by Tim at Accurate Diesel for $215. I could also have him upgrade it to 4911 specs for another $250. Decisions decisions!
I enjoy my 4911. Also you are so far in, what is another 250? :D

[arveetek]

Well, I boxed up my injection pump and injectors and shipped them to Tim at Accuratediesel.com today. I told him to go ahead and upgrade the pump to 4911 specs and send me back some 6.5L turbo injectors. Might as well, eh? :D Tim's quote for the 6.5L upgrades was nearly the same price that my local Stanadyne shop quoted me to rebuild the pump and injectors to stock 6.2L specs. Can't beat that.

Let's see, I've bored the block, resurfaced the block and heads, had the heads rebuilt; I've got new lifters, new water pump, DSG timing gear drive, stud girdle kit, new bearings, new lower-compression ceramic-coated pistons, new rings, new fuel injection system on the way...what have I forgot, and what else do I have left to do? I believe I've done nearly everything I could possibly do to this engine.

I could upgrade the water pump to a high-flow pump and install the dual thermostat housing.... :rolleyes: I've got to stop this somewhere! Besides, I would like to convert to serpentine drive someday. I think I'll wait to upgrade the cooling system then. I'm not planning any big heavy towing trips 'til next summer anyways.

Casey

[DmaxMaverick]

TTT for Arveetek