6.5 Performance [Archive] - TheDieselPage.com Forums

rjschoolcraft

06-21-2004, 15:17

Thanks to John Kennedy for the open house this weekend. Late Saturday, after all of the Duramax fireworks, we put my Suburban on the dynamometer. I'm working on posting the data in graphical format, but here's the bottom line:

Power at the wheels: 223 HP
Torque at the wheels: 428 lb-ft

This is raw data, not corrected to a standard day. Corrected values follow:

Corrected power at wheels: 228 HP
Corrected torque at wheels: 436 lb-ft

Definitely doesn't rival John's 590+ Hp and 980+ lb-ft from his Duramax, but exciting to me none the less.

We pulled Moondoggie's stock chip (since I didn't think to bring mine) and then ran some comparison tests. Keep in mind also, that the "stock" data here isn't really stock. I have a Kennedy intercooler, K&N filter, Banks 3" exhaust and Kennedy high-pop injectors installed on the truck. I ended up adding a Kennedy boost control to the BARO sensor and John set my timing to -1.94 deg.

The stock chip produced (all raw at the wheels):

188 HP, 373 lb-ft

Installing Kennedy's top TD Max chip produced:

209 HP, 409 lb-ft (This is how I arrived for the weekend)

Adding the boost controller produced:

220 HP, 419 lb-ft

Changing the timing from -.7 deg to -1.94 deg produced:

223 HP, 428 lb-ft

These tests were run to show the cummulative effect of each change. The boost controller keeps the boost from rolling off so much at higher rpm and made a big difference in top end power.

Towing performance with the controller added and the timing set was noticeably better. I have been running Kennedy's top chip for almost a year now and reported significant improvements previously. As seen from the data, the boost controller added about 10 HP at the peak (about 3250 rpm). However, lower down at 2920 rpm, I went from 207 HP to 220 HP with the controller added plus another 2 HP from the timing change.

I hope to get graphical data posted soon. For now, though, Kennedy's products have changed my Suburban from being a towing "dog" to a towing "machine". It is truly fun to drive now.

By the way, on the trip home towing my travel trailer, I saw sustained boost of 17 psi on grades. The engine liked it, since the egt ran a lot lower than before. I can now shift down into 3rd (direct) at about 60 mph mat the accelerator and sustain boost at 14-15 psi until about 65 mph where it begins to roll off slightly. The lowest it goes is 9.5-10 psi at the 3-4 shift. EGT stays below 1200 F. Previously, the boost would roll off to about 6-7 psi and my egt could hit 1450 F by the time I reached 70 mph.

We didn't record boost pressure during the dynamometer tests, but I watched the gage. The test was run in 3rd (direct) with the converter clutch locked. The test ran from about 38 mph to about 70 mph under maximum effort acceleration. Boost started at about 9 psi under full throttle at 35 mph and quickly built to 15 psi as the speed came up. When speed reached about 65 mph, the boost began to roll off, dropping to about 12 psi at the end of the test (with all mods in place).

Many folks say that the GM 4 turbo won't make any more power above 12 psi boost, but the dynamometer tests show otherwise. This is coupled with the added benefit of lower egt.

My final numbers aren't too far off of stock Duramax's and are competitive with stock Power Strokes from 1998 - 2000. :D

Cool, huh? ;)

[ 06-28-2004, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: ronniejoe ]

portabull

06-21-2004, 15:24

way cool.

Kennedy

06-21-2004, 16:33

Ron,

Check your email!

BTW, I had a 1994 Dodge on the rollers that only did 187HP and that was blocked wastegate and supposedly turned up. In reality, I think the pump was more screwed up than anything...

Stock 6.5 with muffler bypass did 142HP...

Sad thing is, my dyno wasn't operational before my 6.5 sold... :(

eracers999

06-21-2004, 16:33

Ron;
Thanks for posting this valuable info. I have recently been in touch with JK about my truck, i have his middle chip and it was pulling 16 lbs of boost til 2500 rpm and then it would dump it off to 11 12. Hooked up a assist spring on the arm and tested. Same boost, 16 at 2500 but 2600 and up to 3000, 20 plus psi. It really likes that, noticable improvment in top end power. Cant hardley get the egt over 600. All from the GM-4.
Kent

rjschoolcraft

06-21-2004, 16:46

John,

Thanks.

For everyone else, John just sent a plot of my Suburban vs. a stock D-Max. From 2050 rpm to 2650 rpm, my Suburban beats a stock D-Max on both power and torque! :D :cool:

In my mind, the proof's in the pudding. Kennedy products work! ;)

Billman

06-21-2004, 16:47

Thanks for the info RJ. Impressive.

More and more lately, I'm hearing guys crankin' up the boost past 15. Aren't you guys afraid of Blowin' the heads off these things??

Especially with stock compression?!

Kennedy

06-21-2004, 17:13

Running a truck that has a whole host of my tricks installed made my whole weekend! ESPECIALLY hearing the KD fan clutch come in and having to wait for it to cool down and kick out...

Some day I'll do a before/after on the high flow injectors...

rjschoolcraft

06-21-2004, 17:14

Billman,

I've been running 13 psi for over a year now. Have seen no ill effects. In the mountains at high elevation, I've seen 16 psi with just the Kennedy chip. Bear in mind, that is gage pressure, not absolute, but still that is what makes the power. Also, that is the difference in pressure from the inside of the combustion chamber to the outside, which equates to "blow the heads off" force.

I've only towed about 600 miles in the current configuration, but so far so good. I really think that a lot of the head gasket failures and other head related problems are temperature related: both exhaust temperature and coolant temperature. Those parameters now stay in comfortable ranges.

Kennedy's 96 had 18:1 pistons and the big Penninsular turbo. He ran 25 psi at the Pull-Off. I saw that much when driving his truck solo last summer. Figure that pressure ratio at 2.7:1. Multiply that by 18:1 compression ratio to get 48.6:1 total pressure ratio and ~700 psig cylinder pressure(before injecting fuel). My truck running 17 psi boost gives 2.2:1 pressure ratio. Multiply by 21.3:1 compression ratio to get 45.9:1 total pressure ratio and ~661 psig cylinder pressure (before injecting fuel). I may be crazy, but I'm fairly confident things will be ok. Time will tell.

marktara

06-21-2004, 20:38

Ron, are you finding that your EGTs are dropping when you increase your boost? Just finished installing a intercooler and am thinking of increasing my boost which tops out at 12psi.

rjschoolcraft

06-21-2004, 23:29

Most definitely!

My take is that the compressor is a more efficient pump than the engine.

Last year, I had the Banks exhaust and K&N filter on the truck. I installed one of Kennedy's mid-range chips which raised boost and added fuel. I saw a significant reduction in EGT. This is before installation of the intercooler. This was true to a point...intake air temperature could get too high and everything would go downhill quickly.

With the intercooler, more boost = lower EGT! ;) (within the range that I've operated.)

rjschoolcraft

06-22-2004, 00:46

Let's see how this works.

Here are two data plots. The first is my Suburban with the four different configurations that I descirbed above. The second is everything but the timing change vs. a Stock 1994 LB7 Duramax.

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/Comparison.jpg

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/Schoolcraft_vs_stock_Dmax.jpg

Following are some pictures of my Suburban at work.

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/IM000024.jpg

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/IM000025.jpg

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/IM000232.jpg

These images are also available on my website at SchoolcraftPowerTrain.com (http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com)

[ 06-22-2004, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: ronniejoe ]

matt-max

06-22-2004, 02:59

absolutely wonderfully impressive work, rj and jk!

great to finally be able to see hard figures with different mods and especially to see a fairly stock 6.5 pull down dmax numbers!

ronnie....we still need to get together sometime when the landscape business slows and your summer activities die down a bit. i get up your way quite a bit.

matt

Kennedy

06-22-2004, 04:47

Woops, I'll have to redo that second one to show the best Schoolcraft run.

The 2004 Dmax was pretty tight and new at that point, but most Dmax's run mid to low 400's in TQ across the middle very similar to this one.

eracers999

06-22-2004, 05:36

The 6.5 like any other diesel has a rpm range that you can add fuel and boost to that it is most efficient. Meaning, step out of that range and you will hurt it. I personally dont believe that high boost pressures alone are what will be the 6.5 shortcommings. But you fire that injector to early ( timing advanced ) and that will tear them up. If you look at just what the compression is whith all this added boost it may seem like a lot, but pale incomparison to when the injector fires. As fuel is put too these engines the timing should fall back into a safe range.
Kent

Kennedy

06-22-2004, 05:41

RATS! I shoulda thought to run water injection on Ron's truck! Oh well, he had to settle for a squirrel cage blower directed at his air/air IC.

Maybe next time...

99gmccrew

06-22-2004, 06:57

This was good stuff! Very nice work!

99gmccrew

06-22-2004, 07:00

Hey Marktara, How do you like your new Intercooler. Do you notice the difference!

Marty Lau

06-22-2004, 07:23

Hey Fellows your hard work is appreciated by myself. Ron your seeing a pretty good increase in power at the wheels WOW. Shows us a few things.
1. More Powers precept that a reasonable modified 6.5TD can keep up with a stock Durabux all for lot less buxs. But of course he did that with the project truck.
2. It is great to see the true results in a hard numbers fashion.

Hey John looks like you had a great day at your place. :cool:

John, I was thinking......(really need to stop that!) if the Stock 6.5 had 142 hp at the and either 190hp or 195hp at the crank (bhp) wouldn't that mean that Ronnie Joe's Sub is producing about 298 to 306 hp at the crank(BHP)? Is my math and logic right? If so it's right up there with the Durabux at 300-310BHP.

[ 06-22-2004, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: 16ga SxS ]

rjschoolcraft

06-22-2004, 07:36

16Ga,

Yeah, I'm kinda replowing some ground, here, but...

I think the fact that I'm still running stock compression, electronic injection pump and stock GM-4 turbo accentuates the point. At this point, the engine internals have not been touched. No balancing, no reduced compression, etc. I would like to build an 18:1 engine some day and bring the boost up even more with a bigger turbo, but that is just not in the budget at the moment. The Project Truck gave me hope when I thought I'd really "stepped in it" after buying this truck. Now, I hope I'm giving others even more hope as they consider their truck's futures.

For me, I'll be driving a 6.5 for quite some time before I can afford a Duramax. So, I've got to get everything I can out of the 6.5. Right now, I'm feeling pretty good. I'm also glad to see the hard numbers to back up my seat of the pants assessment of where I stood. It makes me convinced that the purchases I've made from Kennedy have been wise ones! smile.gif

It also backs up some of my comments from the past that have been rebutted somewhat (not maliciously). The boost levels and resultant power are significant here and revise some of the collective wisdom from the Page, IMHO. I've believed this for a while, but didn't have any hard data to support the belief. It's amazing what a couple of hours on a dynamometer with a guy who is as dedicated to getting this right as I am will do! :D

Thanks again John! :cool:

moondoggie

06-22-2004, 08:43

Good Day!

ronniejoe: Thanks for posting your results. Very impressive. (2:29 AM? 3:46 AM? Were we a WEE bit excited?) :D

JK: If you're interested, perhaps I could be convinced to bring my 95 pickup (completely stock) & my 95 Sub (completely stock + your exhaust) next time if you'd like to flesh out the bottom end of this database. I realize that DMax is the show now, but if you're interested

rjschoolcraft

06-22-2004, 09:02

matt-max,

I'd like to meet you, as well. I get down to Bloomington frequently. Maybe we could meet for lunch somewhere?

Kent,

Yes, I know that cylinder pressures are much higher during the burn, but I was trying to compare apples to apples. The overall pressure ratio is an indicator of the amount of oxygen available to burn and, if similar amounts of fuel are introduced, the higher pressure ratio case should have the highest peak cylinder pressure during the burn. I presented that simply as a way to compare the two cases that I'm most familiar with.

On the timing, many folks on the page have been running at or near -1.94 deg for thousands of miles. It was before my time, but as I understand it, some testing was done with several settings to settle on that number based on power and fuel mileage. As you can see, that gave me 2-3 more HP across the board.

Moondoggie,

Yeah, a " wee bit ". I also have been planning to set up a website for my business for a couple of months. The need to post the data was the spur that I needed, so I sat up all night building the web site. It is rudimentary, but gets the job done for now. It sure was good to see you this weekend. Thanks again for being a "brain donor"!

Kennedy

06-22-2004, 09:35

16ga,

Tough call on powertrain losses. It is my belief that any given powertrain will require a certain amount of HP to run.

Where things gey muddy is when we look applying this loss as a percentage. Ron being a powertrain engineer is perhaps best equipped to agree/disagree here, but it is my belief that the majority (say 99+%) of what we add in power still gets through to the wheels. A fractional percentage can be lost due to the increased loading of bearings etc. Ron do you agree?

Brian,

We will DEFINITELY need to get something set up so we can dyno at a more "virgin" level!

rjschoolcraft

06-22-2004, 09:57

That's basically right.

On any particular power train, losses will increase as loads increase. Friction is directly related to the normal force applied between two surfaces. As power increases, the normal force increases and so does the friction drag or loss. This doesn't necessarily follow a linear relationship and is not constant from one design to the next. Many things influence the loss.

For instance, 3500 dually's will probably have more loss than a 2500 or 3500 SRW. The Allison probably has higher loss than the 4L80E because it has larger diameter parts. The larger the diameter, the more torque a friction loss will make. Losses usually increase with speed as well. Again, not necessarily in a linear relationship. For instance, windage loss in power typically follows a cubed relationship with speed. Churning losses increase with speed also.

Bottom line, the power to the ground for my Suburban is very close to (if not better than) a stock Duramax. That is with all of the losses included! ;)

Kennedy

06-22-2004, 10:13

So educated guess request.

If we have established a 240RW HP baseline for a Duramax and it has a 300HP flywheel rating, assuming these numbers are indeed accurate, we have a 60HP loss. If we double the power output of the engine how much additional loss would you expect to see? Another 10HP? More? Less?

rjschoolcraft

06-22-2004, 10:33

This is just a guess!

You could potentially see up to 30 HP more loss, so, say 90 HP for talking purposes. If the loss followed a linear relationship, doubling the power output would double the loss for a total of 120 HP. I don't think that is happening. That 30 HP guess could be off by 40% either way. The only way to know for sure is to run the engine by itself on an engine dynamometer to a set duty cycle. Then repeat the test in the truck on the chassis dynamometer running to the same duty cycle. Then you would know the losses at several operating conditions for that particular power train. One could also spend several weeks trying to estimate losses for individual components then add them all up for the total. That would be much less accurate than the testing approach.

Other losses that I didn't mention earlier include losses in the U-joints. As the drive line loads up, the rear axle will rotate yoke up changing the operating angle of the U-joints. As U-joint angle increases, the loss through the joint increases dramatically. That's why some drag racers rotate there rear axles slightly nose down so that when loaded under acceleration, they straighten out the U-joint.

John, your truck really squats when you hit that Nitrous button! :eek: WOW! :eek: I didn't think to get down on my knees and look at the axle roll, but that would be interesting to see. ;)

Edited to fix my screw-up!

[ 06-22-2004, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: ronniejoe ]

Billman

06-22-2004, 10:50

A typical drag race car will have the pinion facing nose DOWN depending on suspension type.

Ronnie - where are you getting the pressure ratios from?

rjschoolcraft

06-22-2004, 10:53

That's right! I said it backwards! Sorry. :confused: I'll fix the earlier post.

As the wheels try to rotate forward, equal and opposite reaction makes the housing nose rotate up.

If you're referring to the turbo compressor pressure ratios, that comes from the following:

For my case, 17 psig boost pressure + 14.7 psia ambient pressure (assume standard conditions) = 31.7 psia absolute boost pressure. 31.7 psia absolute boost pressure / 14.7 psia ambient pressure = 2.156 or ~2.2:1 pressure ratio.

I should also express my appreciation to More Power for this web site. Without it, none of this would be possible. :cool:

[ 06-22-2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: ronniejoe ]

Kennedy

06-22-2004, 11:38

I have wedges under the springs to adjust the pinion angle, and the one extra leaf, but as you stated, it squats and wraps a BUNCH! I'm also told that the cab to bed gap changes dramatically during a burnout! :eek:

Looking at adding traction bars, or an upper 3rd link, BUT I'm also kinda thinking of backing this truck down and abusing a lighter and less expensive truck...

[ 06-22-2004, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: kennedy ]

marktara

06-22-2004, 21:22

99 gmccrew, can't say I felt anymore power with intercooler but it made a HUGE difference when pulling the fifth wheel.After first camping trip this summer with new fifth wheel we were truck shopping for new dmax but after sticker shock wore off we thought it was cheaper to buy a intercooler and kennendy fan clutch. Best decision we made because truck pulls trailer like its a totally different truck.

Bigg R

06-23-2004, 14:16

Really impressive numbers Ron! Checked out your
website also! Now that I've seen pictures of your
rig I'll have to keep an eye out 'round the 'ville
for ya!!!

rjschoolcraft

06-23-2004, 14:25

Bigg R,

Is your truck red?

I think I saw you the other day and waved, but you didn't see me. It sure looked like I saw that Kennedy intercooler under the front end of the truck I saw!

Bigg R

06-23-2004, 14:37

Yep thats it! Wish I'd seen ya I'd like to check
your ride out! Sounds like you got it running pretty good. I've done almost everything you've
done except high pop injectors,quick heat plugs,
and boost contoller,and my timing is set at -1.50!

Mark Bajus

06-23-2004, 14:47

great numbers! Would love to get mine on the rollers but JK's a little too far to drive, maybe BD. With the Penninsular turbo unloaded Im seeing 21 lbs now, bit of a slug down low, but feels like Ive strapped an afterburner on from about 2100 on ALL the way up to 3600! Need to scrape the pennies together for the "final" stuff, an intercooler and JK fan.

rjschoolcraft

06-24-2004, 12:14

Here are some pictures from the weekend. I would have posted these earlier, but... I dummied up and left my camera lying on John's shop floor. Thanks for mailing it down to me, John! ;)

The first shows a side view of the Suburban on the rollers:

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/IM000258.jpg

Rear view:

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/IM000259.jpg

From the front with squirrel cage blower:

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/IM000260.jpg

Set up for the test:

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/IM000261.jpg

Running a test point:

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/IM000263.jpg

Discussing the data:

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/IM000264.jpg

Here is a short video clip of the testing. My digital camera doesn't have a microphone, so there is no sound :( , but you can see the action.
Suburban Test Video (http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/IM000262.AVI)

[ 06-24-2004, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: ronniejoe ]

patrick m.

06-24-2004, 14:25

fantastic, Ronniejoe! Since you and I have many of the same "add-ons" i figure im in the same ball park as you power wise.
Thanks for sharing the info.
Pat

Kennedy

06-25-2004, 06:09

Gee Ron, you weren't supposed to show pics of the new prototype BIG turbo...

Ron is the tall dude, and moondoggie is the bearded guy.

moondoggie

06-28-2004, 07:29

Good Day!

matt-max: You said,

markrinker

06-28-2004, 07:46

Cool stuff. Wish I could have made it. Ironically, I have #2 back with all the mods, just a week too late to test it at JK's. Maybe next year.

Did you notice in the video how the tires inched forward on the dyno rollers when under full power? Wondering if those straps would hold if you caught traction (ahead of the rollers) under a full boost boogie? I think I know the answer in the case of JK's super-rig. He'd have a new 'shop door' for sure!

Kennedy

06-28-2004, 08:19

If you look closely, there is a burn mark on the paint ahead of the rollers. Really did a number on the Bridgestone junk that came on the 2004 that made that mark.

I've been thinking of trying a chain/tow hook setup in the rear to address the stretch. Those aren't bargain basement straps either. Made by Dick at www.strapman.com (http://www.strapman.com) He's the guy at all the car shows sewing in his trailer all day...

Did I mention we are looking at doing another event on Labor Day weekend???

markrinker

06-28-2004, 08:37

If you do a Labor Day event, I'll be there with rig #2. Should have the water injection done by then as well.

I am again using chains and load binders more and more on loads that I started to trust to 3" ratchet straps rated at 3,000lbs per.

Recently, I 'accidently unloaded' while in a slow left turn off a green traffic light. Probably accelerated too much trying to beat oncoming traffic.

Five 800lb bundles of 2" x 10' bar stock were sitting on the pavement at the intersection of 394 and Washington street downtown Minneapolis...NOT a good day.

Straps didn't break, just momentarily stretched enough to release the hook on one end.

moondoggie

06-28-2004, 09:26

Good Day!

Labor Day weekend - bummer - previous committment. :( I KNOW you'll all have fun. :D Thanks again, John, for your generosity. I'm not sure I could afford what your help has been worth to me since I joined the Page.

Blessings!

Brian Johnson, #5044

matt-max

06-28-2004, 18:48

i hear what you are saying on the mods...i guess it just depends upon what we consider to be fairly stock.....really ronnie has the intercooler, the ecm and the boost controller as far as add-ons go....probably about $2k worth of mods.

i'm sure the exhaust, filter and injectors help some too, but i don't believe they do all that much. i didn't know he had the new block or any rebuild done either, but not sure that makes much difference.

i was referring to internals and main engine components, not add-ons. meaning the pistons and heads and turbo and pump are all stock gm parts, and the big difference was made up in add-ons.

granted, these add-ons are not really all that cheap considering the value of the vehicle, but aren't too bad compared to the alternatives out there...big block or supercharged small-block gasser fuel economy or diesel excursion. but i bet ronnie will testify that it was money well-spent!

the best thing is seeing that kind of improvement documented and repeatable by any one with a few bucks and a few hours to spend. and of course having this site to share it with all of us....

matt

rjschoolcraft

06-28-2004, 19:39

Don't misunderstand...

I had an engine replaced under warranty in 2000 at 65,000 miles. They installed a long block. I just checked the casting number a couple of days ago. It is 12555506, so it appears to be a later, enhanced oil spray block. The engine has not been apart and is completely stock inside. I've spent about $4,000 on performance and cooling system modifications. That's a lot, but only pushes the total for the vehicle (including purchase price) to $27,000. Much less than a new Duramax.

Furthermore, my Suburban can now tow with Stock Duramax's and Powerstrokes...any year. The cost of a Powersmoke Extrusion is close to two times what I have in my Suburban. Besides, I could never bring myself to drive one of those anyway. So, yes, the money has been well spent, IMO. Plus, now the Suburban is "mine", if you know what I mean. I never feel like a vehicle is mine until I've done significant work on it!

So, everything has been external, bolt on hardware or electronics changes. No internal modifications at all.

DA BIG ONE

06-28-2004, 21:28

I read somewhere that the 1999 L-65 option motor has lower 19.1 compression, anyone know if this is true?

moondoggie

06-29-2004, 03:05

Good Day!

Please don't misunderstand the points I made about Ron's Sub - he's done EXACTLY what I'd like to do to mine (& my pickup too). :D I'm mainly interested in defining the data, so reasonable comparisons can be made. Ron's Sub, even with my OE chip, is pretty far from stock, within the realm of not going into the internals. Going inside adds another whole layer of what's available in terms of making power & reliability.

IMHO, Ron's Sub represents what they should have sold us. Of course, I'm biased toward good fuel economy 1st with increased power, as opposed to increased power 1st with good fuel economy, if that makes any sense. :confused:

Blessings!

Brian Johnson, #5044

rjschoolcraft

06-29-2004, 04:28

As far as I can tell (from this and other sources), the lower compression and higher horsepower rating never made it to production. It appears it was planned and advertised somewhat, but never implemented. See this thread (http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005955) and this one (http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005151) for more information.

[ 06-29-2004, 04:52 AM: Message edited by: ronniejoe ]

Kennedy

06-29-2004, 07:51

Originally posted by matt-max:

the best thing is seeing that kind of improvement documented and repeatable by any one with a few bucks and a few hours to spend. and of course having this site to share it with all of us....

matt There is a LOT of undocumented hype, speculation etc out there surrounding diesel performance. Some may not like my style, but they need to understand somethging. I'm not in this just to sell stuff. I'm dead serious when I make a claim, AND when I evade making claims of HP in regards to the 6.5. We've seen some pretty repeatable stuff, and they all seem to respond the same way to the massages I give them, BUT to a lesser extent in some cases. When someone suggests a better way, I'll certainly try it. When someone claims something to be better, it had better be true...

moondoggie

06-29-2004, 08:19

Good Day!

I always thought JK had the goods, now he has the ability to prove it. That's one of the reasons why I was hoping to make the fall Open House

99gmccrew

07-01-2004, 20:38

Isn't it nice not having a 600/mo payment, but still having a nice diesel performer that will keep up with the powerstrokes and cummins? (stock)
RJ , I noticed in your pics you have an extra gauge on your dash besides the pillar mount. Is that IAT? JK when is your new reflash program going to be ready or is it done now?

rjschoolcraft

07-01-2004, 20:51

I have a two-gage pod on the dash with boost and egt. I also have a two-gage pillar mount pod with engine oil and trans oil temp. The sender is not installed yet for the engine oil temp. Comming soon, I hope.

Kennedy

07-02-2004, 06:06

Originally posted by 99gmccrew:
Isn't it nice not having a 600/mo payment, but still having a nice diesel performer that will keep up with the powerstrokes and cummins? (stock)
RJ , I noticed in your pics you have an extra gauge on your dash besides the pillar mount. Is that IAT? JK when is your new reflash program going to be ready or is it done now? Ready now IF you are willing to accept the factthat it may require revisions. It's pretty darn solid now, but I'd rather it be viewed as a "beta" than a final release as many here have seen the need to send theirs in for updates and patches.

JoeyD

07-02-2004, 15:53

What will it offer compared to the Heath reflash? Does it require an intercooler or anything else?

99gmccrew

07-02-2004, 17:07

What type of revisions would be required?

rjschoolcraft

07-04-2004, 21:36

I sure hope you guys are enjoying this as much as I am. :D Sometimes I'm afraid that I'm blowing my own horn, but I try not to. I hope this helps others to know that they have options for serious power.

Anyway, we are presently in the Minute Man Campground at Littleton, MA. The Suburban ran great all the way here. I cannot get over how much better the thing runs now. That 15 HP improvement has made a huge difference!

Steady cruise conditions netted about 11-12 psi boost most of the way over. I pulled up to about 17.5 psi (over the scale on my gage...I'm gonna have to replace that) on grades in the Appalachian Mountains. Exhaust temperatures never exceeded 1250F and only exceeded 1200F a couple of times. In stock trim, I rarely dropped below 1200F while towing. WOW! :eek: The engine really likes the extra boost. In many places on level ground, I cruised at 800F (pre-turbo) egt. The result is about 400-500F reduction in egt over the stock set-up and a lot more power.

The thing that I like the most... reserve power! :cool: Cruising at 70 mph towing, push the pedal down and feel the acceleration. Helpful when lane changes are necessary in heavy traffic. In stock trim, couldn't really cruise at 70. Every little grade change (overpass, mole hill, etc.) caused a big drop in speed. Push the pedal down, engine makes a little more noise, egt climbs, no noticeable increase in speed...give up and wait for cars to pass then change lanes.

This is fun! :D

P.S. We just returned from watching the fireworks over the Charles River in Boston. If you ever have the opportunity, go see that show. It was Great! The Boston Pops Orchestra played a whole medley of patriotic tunes (God Bless America and My Country 'Tis of Thee brouht tears to my eyes) and the fireworks show was timed to music (including the 1812 Overture!). A flight of four F-15's made a low level pass during the national anthem. :cool: My youngest son (8 years old) turned to me during the show and said, "Dad, thanks for bringing us to this show. It is really cool!" Made my whole day! ;)

JoeyD

07-05-2004, 07:12

Ron, Thats a great show in Boston. I have been many times.

99gmccrew

07-05-2004, 17:48

I'm definitely putting that on my things to do list. (Before my kids get to old).

eracers999

07-05-2004, 18:21

Hey Ronnie; Thanks for all the great info, its fun to see somone elses excitement, thats what it all about. And to all who are sold on the idea that turbo efficientcy is all over after 12 lbs of boost i can tell you this for certain. I put the vacume line from the pump straight to the actuator on the turbo and as no surprise that i have 20 plus on boost. Here is what i noticed from doing this. Up to 2450 rpm all is the same as before (egt and boost) after that boost really comes on and i can tell you from 74 mph on up this thing will pull. I have 1 hill that i use for a test every day. At 14k gross i would loose 2 mph on this hill no matter how i hit it. Now, if i hit it at 70 in 3rd or 75+ in overdrive i can gain 2 mph. Egt wont go over 650, oil is staying really clean. This is how i like it and this is how it will run, 0 to 60 times are not what im after, its how well i can maintain the 74 to 78 at witch speed i cruise at, it does it better with more boost. The truck see's about 160 to 180 miles per day, all loaded and i really feel that i am not hurting it, and am confident in its reliability. We will see, what it will take.
Kent

99gmccrew

07-05-2004, 21:37

Kent, that was a very interesting post. 20 psi seems so high from what I have read here on tdp.
650 egt reading is amazing. The extra boost must be helping to remove the internal heat by pushing it out quicker. If that's possible. I've recently gotten the kennedy boost controller and have had it at about 15psi but just for quick jounts and not while towing. The truck seems to respond well to the boost. I'm towing the boat tommorrow to Lake Havasu and I'll be climbing some gnarly grades and I honestly am looking forward to find out what she's got. The newly added IC makes it very exciting. I'll report my findings when I return. I just hope I don't blow of any fittings.
BTDT!
God Bless America!

Spindrift

07-06-2004, 05:20

Kent,

Are you achieving your max. EGTs of 650* without charge-air cooling?

markrinker

07-06-2004, 07:09

"...this is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends..."

Turbine Doc

07-06-2004, 07:25

One thing to look at that MP referred to in an earlier post here is back pressure, I gauged the EGR port on mine with an old oil pressure gauge I had laying around, as you go up in boost exhaust back pressure goes up when I'm hitting hard at 15psi boost the BP pressure is 40psi, so one thing to determine is just what is point diminished return of higher boost for the 6.5 with GM-8 that is about 12-13 psi from what I'm seeing.

If 15+ boost is working against 2x higher exhaust back pressure & one of the reasons we go to larger exhaust is to reduce back pressure I think you get to the point 15+ isn't gaining anything.

If one would want to take advantage of higher boost they would have to reduce turbo back pressure with larger turbo which would gain HP at reduction of driveability performance, say maybe go to a larger non waste gated turbo, you would improve HP gain but you have to wait for the engine to spool up the turbo.

I think this is what is being said, correction please if I have it wrong.

AndyL

07-06-2004, 07:41

15 PSI Boost = 40 PSI Exhaust Back pressure :eek:

Any other data on these pressures?

eracers999

07-06-2004, 08:36

Spindrift;
Thats all i can get out of it 650, i even put in my other (known to be good spare probe). I may have a different driving style than some. When i get into a hard pull ill hold it on the board but, if it starts loosing ground i will back out it and let it slow up. I never as they say (pull the guts out of it). 2400 to 2900 is the range that i will try to hold full pedal. The oil with 2k on it is still very transparent with little blackening. Not to much has been mentioned about built in timing curves in the performance chip, i believe it has a lot to do with weather or not these things hold together. JK's TD max chip works very well for me. Transmission programing is right on the money, it wont let you lock up the converter while in D under 2000 rpm. Once above 2000 it will hold in there. I always start out in D and select OD when i want it.
If the back psi is actually 40 before turbo then there is definate room for improvment. Seems there is no unity on turbo choice but when one comes along that the masses agree on that will be the one that i try. What about a D max turbo conversion?? HMM.
Kent