Water Injection Report

[BuffaloGuy]

I will recount my experiences with water injection for general entry into the DP data base and for those who are interested now.

June 14th 2004
I pulled 6 loads of hay. Curb weight (as weighed on certified scales) for the first load was 26,750lbs. (the other loads should be very close to the same)

Load height approx. 12-13 feet and 12-13 feet wide. These big loads of hay grab the wind worse than anything I haul.

Air temp 95 F and sunny
20-30 MPH head wind while loaded
Gravel roads
Level to slightly hilly terrian
3800 feet above sea level
Road speed of approx. 60 mph.
Max boost of 15 psi. (with h2o on)

With the water injection off IT temps steadily climbed to 240F and were still climbing briskly . I got nervous and switched the water injection on and watched the IT come down to 140F in about 2-3 minutes. This test was duplicated scores of times until I finally left the h2o on. Then, the IT never got above 150F.

Power increase (or lack of heat soaked power decrease) was noticable. Even with the IT already cool a noticable power increase could be measured when the h2o was activated.

EGT temps ran about 150F less with h2o injection or about 800F.

Boost increased 1.5 to 2 psi with the h2o on.

Motor coolant temps still would climb too high for my liking(230+) but were not as apt to do it with the h2o system on.

I believe that the true test for IT cooling comes not in the mountains but on the plains. The day this test was done was a perfect test. Hot steady head wind, very few hills and a high ambient temp. The truck never was out of full load. In the mountains the down hills give the motor a break. No break what-so-ever under these conditions. A good test.

It appears that my system would require about a 25 gallon tank to supply the needed water for a heavy pull for one diesel tanks' worth of travel time.

Conclusions:

I am very pleased. Cost for this simple system was about $225 (self designed and installed). Performance was excellent. Cheap horse power.

One draw back is the need for a large tank. If I can't find one to fit under the bed then that would be a very big draw back for me.

I will be pursuing finding an under bed tank to finish this addition. I'd appreciate any ideas on this. The tank needs to be plastic so as not to corrode. I plan on using methanol too in the future.

Ken

[rjwest]

If you can move the spare and replace with tank.

I havge a dually, had a tank made(fuel), don't cxarry spare, Boat or RV stores have plastic water tanks . all sizes... Boat salavage cheapest,
But that not be common where you are.
Would be interested in how you did it...
water injection, thinking about intercooler,
price keeps me thinking.

[markrinker]

25,750 lbs? Holy heavy-weight, Batman! What was your top speed for the day?

My record weight towed was around 11K. I still expected 60mph on the highway, and got it. It was a tough day on the truck, however so I try to keep the loads maxed at 8K for anything over 100 miles.

[matt-max]

great first-hand info. thank you very much for posting your experiences for the rest of us to learn from

i have had water injection the tahoe since march but have not towed much with it yet....too many other trucks that fit the bill better for that.

with the reprogrammed ecm it just doesn't work very hard and i can't stay in the throttle long with out being way over the legal limit.

love to hear what you find with the methanol. that is where the additional power is supposed to come in....

matt

[rjschoolcraft]

Good report.

Actually you do get power from the water as well as the methanol. If it is injected at the right flow rate, it will flash to steam and give you the added power of that expansion process.

Now carefully read all my previous posts on this subject before thinking I'm a turn-coat. I've always said that the physics of water injection work. I think Buffalo Guy has found the draw back that I've tried to point out. On long steady pulls (in the plains, as he called it) you need a lot of water. His estimate of a 25 gallon tank is not far from what I guesstimated at 30 or so gallons.

By the way, RV fresh water tanks come in all sizes, are plastic and would do your job well. Keep in mind that 25 gallons of water is over 200 pounds of added weight to carry around.

Good luck with your project. This kind of data is very valuable. Keep it up.

[Spindrift]

Ken,

Just in case you haven't seen this link:

http://www.tank-depot.com/index.htm

I've heard that some PS guys are mounting the tank along the frame rail.

[BuffaloGuy]

Yes Robin, it's very heavy. I've hauled more though. 27,500 lbs. curb weight several times. Top speed on the level with no wind is about 65. It's overloaded but I don't do it for long hauls.

The info I used to build this system is at www.turbomirage.com/water3.html. (http://www.turbomirage.com/water3.html.)

Thanks for the tips on the tanks.
Ken

[Cowracer]

Just a thought here, but it seems to me that you could extend your water range if you only inject when needed. Using a boost level switch is only half the battle as you would be injecting water anytime the boost is up, even if the EGT's are down.

If you would use a Boost Switch AND a temp switch for the EGT's, then you could only inject water when the boost it up AND the EGT's are high (over 900 or so).

I found a place with some high temp snap-action switches that would work. They would mount like a pyro thermocouple, and wire in series with a boost pressure switch.

High Temp Snap Action Temperature switches (http://www.thomasregister.com/olc/15840002/rod.htm)

Tim

[BuffaloGuy]

Very interesting idea. That would make a big difference in water usage but I have gotten addicted to the extra horse power and want it all the time :D

I'll mount as big a tank as possible under the bed and if I find I still run short of water then maybe I could wire one of these in. Perhaps I could wire it in so that I would have an option of "full power" injection and "cooling only" injection.

[Cowracer]

BTW...

Are you injecting Pre-Turbo or Post-Turbo?

Tim

[BuffaloGuy]

Post turbo with a nozzle purchased from Matt Snow at www.snowperformance.net (http://www.snowperformance.net)

[Barry Nave]

Iv'e had my home made water going now for 3 yrs.
Cowracer has a good point,this is what I do having a INT gauge you can see when it's needed.
Buffalo, good job. There was a time I was involved with this and many members sad, Yey right over IC.
Ronnie, your alway's on top of the DP.
To all keep up the good reading.

[Ken Finchum]

I have just installed a home made system using the same basic design. Can you tell me which nozzle you purchased from Matt Snow at www.snowperformance.net (http://www.snowperformance.net) and what is your pump pressure is. I'm still trying to get my system fine tuned. From the data on the Snow site I think my nozzel is too big.

[markrinker]

I have been scouring the internet for a good water injection kit - at a realistic price. I see why people are constructing their own, there must be 300% profit margins in the kits I have come across.

Anyone in the midwest experienced in installing a custom water injection system? I'll gladly pay up to $400 (parts and labor) installed, and will plumb the tank myself.

[BuffaloGuy]

The nozzle used for my application is a 375 with a 60 psi pump.

A side note:
Last night I had the truck parked with the tank uphill from the motor. The motor started very hard. I found have a slow drip into the intake that allowed some water in while parked. Bad deal. I got lucky! Don't make the same mistake. The check valve I bought from Snow Performance was supposed to prevent this. It didn't

I WILL be installing a manaul valve so I can shut it off. I like my motor.

[Spindrift]

One of the most knowledgeable people I have ever come across regarding WMI is Brad Schaffner. His company is located in Kansas City and I believe he was the first to distribute the Aquamist system in the U.S., a system generally believed to be the cream of the crop. I have his phone number and web address but I'm somewhat reluctant to post for fear of getting slammed. As a point of reference, the pump he recommends for the 6.5TD is rated at 150 psi.

[Ken Finchum]

A solenoid valve is good insurance. McMaster-Carr Supply Co (http://www.mcmaster.com) has both the solenoid valve and Mist Nozzles. The 375ml/min nozzle you used is equivelent to a 6gph nozzle. They have a 6.32ghp @ 40psi (pn 3178K76) or a 5gph @ 100psi (pn 31778K75) for $3.33 each. The solenoid valve I used was pn 7876K14 and cost $34.38. I wired mine to the Oil Pressure Switch. No oil pressure, no water flow.

[slagona]

I looked into water injection a few years ago and found some great sites - most of which are long gone unfortunately. My number one concern was atomization of the water droplets. You need to have a high pressure pump to get proper atomization - along with a good nozzle. I wouldn't install anything less than 100 psi in my truck and would not install before the turbo either.

Those that have installed lower pressure pumps and before the turbo have posted great results and no adverse effects to the turbo or other components. I wouldn't take the chance with my engine.

Just my opinion. Do the research and decide for yourself. It's only an extra $50-$60 to upgrade pumps and nozzles....

[markrinker]

Sounds like the turbo might be doing the atomization with that approach. Not on my truck, but I would imagine that is the net effect.

[whatnot]

Does anyone have a Heath Diesel one on their truck? It is only $249 with everything except a water tank.
If so, what pressure do they run at? I would think that the higher the pressure, the less water needed.

[matt-max]

yes, i've got a heath unit on the tahoe

[whatnot]

Originally posted by matt-max:
yes, i've got a heath unit on the tahoe How long did it take to install?
I just talked to Bill Heath and he said that it is only about 30 PSI and higher pressure doesn't help any. He says that the biggest difference is the place it is injected.

I am considering ordering one soon.
Is there anything else in a complete kit in the same price range to compare with it?

[rjschoolcraft]

Check this out! Dynamometer test of my 6.5 TD! (http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006650)

[BuffaloGuy]

Hey Spindrift. I opened the link to the water tank and couldn't find which tank you were talking about. Which one is it that the PS guys are mounting on their rails? I sent the compnay an email too and they didn't know which one would work either.
Ken

[Spindrift]

Ken,
Sorry if I confused. The link was a tank source that was given to me...no reference to a specific model number however. Matt Snow told me what the PS folks are using for tanks. He might be a good contact for you.

[BuffaloGuy]

Thanks. I'll follow up with Matt.

[computer monkey]

I just install a Heath Diesel (water injection) on my rig. Still setting it up. I used the tanks on my trailer for the water and used 1/4 dot (air brake) tubing for the pumping from the tanks to the turbo. Bill helped me out with some quick connect valves that I purchased along with his Power Extend towing mirrors (nice). Leaving for a trip to NC. Going to be a good test.

[whatnot]

Originally posted by computer monkey:
I just install a Heath Diesel (water injection) on my rig. Still setting it up. I used the tanks on my trailer for the water and used 1/4 dot (air brake) tubing for the pumping from the tanks to the turbo. Bill helped me out with some quick connect valves that I purchased along with his Power Extend towing mirrors (nice). Leaving for a trip to NC. Going to be a good test. Where did you mount the pump?
My heath kit just came today and I will get it installed as soon as I get time.
I still need to find a water tank.

[computer monkey]

Whatnot, I mounted the pump on the inside frame rail on the driver side, just behind the passenger door. I used 1/4 dot tubing to plumb the water from the tanks. From the pump to the tanks I do believe is around 30 feet. One of the problems I am having is the 1/4 tubing is to small to feed the pump from that distances. I should have used 3/8 or may be a little larger. I may have a quick work around to get me thru till after this trip.

[BuffaloGuy]

Update for reference:

I towed a light load of 6800 lbs. yesterday on the interstate for about 300 miles ( afeww buffalo in a stock trailer). The water injection was on almost all the time. IAT's were about 140F. I used 10 gallons of water (much less than expected). My mileage was about 13mpg. Pretty dissapointing but I had a cross wind of about 25-30 MPH. Ambient air temps of 75-80F. Starting elevation of 3800 feet. Finished at about 5200 feet.

Also, my original Hobbs switch p u k e d. It's demise was either due to being overloaded running all the pump power through it or being damaged while being my 3 year olds play toy for part of an afternoon before I installed it.

Either way, I made a change. I installed a new Hobbs and wired in a continous duty soleniod to power the pump (and the dash "pump on" light). It works like a charm now and I notice the light lighting brighter and indicating a crisper on/off cycle too. I recommend it.

I also installed a shut off solenoid just before the manifold injection point for saftey reasons. Now I don't need to worry about a drip into the intake when it is shut down.

All told, with the new parts, I estimate that an identical system would cost about $300 (without the tank).

[Spindrift]

BG,

What did you work out for the water tank?

[BuffaloGuy]

I still have the 35 gal. plastic drum strapped in the back. Now that I know I only need about 15 gallons of storage I'll be looking for something to fit underneath. Any ideas?

[99gmccrew]

Can someone tell me where the nozzle is located and if the mist is injected directly to the intake. I was under the impression that water was the last thing you would introduce to the inside of your engine.

[BuffaloGuy]

The nozzle is injecting right after the turbo. A small amount of water is not harmful (3 gal/hour). Think of a humid nights' drive and that's what it's like.

[99gmccrew]

This is very interesting. I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat. Does affect the combustion process at all, negative or positive?

[BuffaloGuy]

Yes, it does. Positive. The added moisture turns to steam upon combustion and give added volume, and therefore power, to the power stroke.

[99gmccrew]

That makes perfect sense. Thanks for the explanation! So this would actually produce more benefit than an air to air IC except for the one downfall of carrying an extra water source.

[BuffaloGuy]

Another negative is the moving parts. An air to air IC is a static piece of equipment and is better in that respect. They cost a bunch more though. With the h2o injection I can also inject methanol for even more added HP. I haven't done it yet but I've heard it works pretty good. (Just regular old windsheild washer fluid works they tell me)

[Spindrift]

Originally posted by The Buffalo Guy:
I still have the 35 gal. plastic drum strapped in the back. Now that I know I only need about 15 gallons of storage I'll be looking for something to fit underneath. Any ideas? BG,

I was out in Lancaster, PA last weekend and found what one Excursion Stroker had used for his frame rail mounting brackets. Unfortunately, I can only tell you what they look like. Think of angle iron, only lighter gauge. Then perforate the steel along its length with holes large enough for a standard size bolt. Think of the metal strapping that is used to hang basement pipes and such from the ceiling. Got the picture? This is the stuff that was used to make the frame, which hung off the truck's frame rail. If I ever go the WMI route, this is what I'll use. It's sturdy. Sure am sorry that I can't pin a technical name to it though.

[BuffaloGuy]

Yep. I know the stuff. It's a lightweight structural steel. I can weld pretty good so I'm not too worried about the mounting aspect but I'm still trying to find a tank that would fit underneath. Did you happen to see the tank this guy had?

[Cowracer]

Buffalo!

Didja ever look at Cabellas or Overtons for a boat fuel tank. They come in a LARGE assortment of sizes, shapes and mountings. They are relativly cheap, and (Best part) some even include a level sending unit!

Tim

[Turbine Doc]

Check out boat gear USA the have a fuel bladder that would be a possibility as well it being flexible could be located in some unique spare room like under passenger seat

[rlvelin]

An ABS RV holding tank should work well, there is a wide range of capacities and dimensions availabe. I've ran across a few websites in the past with quite a selection such as web page (http://www.dyersonline.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=Plumbing+Sanitation-Holding+Tanks) and an RV dealer should have a few catalogs. The plumbing (fill spout, outlet, etc.) would be real easy since the tank bungs can be placed anywhere and PVC can be glued to the ABS. The downside is the tank will probably cost more than what you have in the system already ($200-$300).

Also a plastic gas tank might be salvaged from a small truck at a junk yard for a good price. Hope this helps.

[BuffaloGuy]

Hey, I like the bladder idea! Perhaps I could stuff one into the empty space between the inner and outer wall on the bed. When it's not so muddy I'll have to crawl around under there and check it out.

Thanks a lot guys! You all are sure a great bunch.

[computer monkey]

http://www.tankdepot.com/index.htm

[Spindrift]

BG,

This is the place the Stroker used:

Ronco Plastics (http://www.ronco-plastics.com/)

I called Ronco myself and spoke with Scott. Great guy. He said we could take 50% off the list price. He suggested that anyone who is interested look either in their RV/Transportation or Marine catalogues. Specifically, he recommended two tanks: the B232 or the B369, both of which are in the Marine catalogue. Scott can be reached at 714-259-1385.

While we're on the "Subject", I got some info from a guy who who runs an '02 3500 Dodge with a 5.9 Cummins. Hope you can make sense out of the numbers. It takes a little while to figure out the logic of the chart, but it appears that he saw a 36HP increase after the WMI install and a torque gain of 35? This is what he said:


Now for my results. I bumped up one of my W/M injectors to a 625ml from the two 375ml from my last run. This may have been a mistake since I did not see the gains that I saw with the two 375ml injectors..or I need a larger turbo. The only other changes to my truck were the installation of some 70hp Fuel injectors and I started running stanadyne fuel treatment. W/M mix was a solid 50/50, temps were in the 60's, altitude 5200ft.

Mode - Horsepower - Gains - Gains over stock - Torque - Gains - Gains over stock
Stock - 190.88 - 436.91
Fuel - 268.68 - 77.80 - 77.80 - 624.76 - 187.85 - 187.85
Fuel & W/I - 305.05 - 36.37 - 114.17 - 659.90 - 35.14 - 222.99
Fuel & Edge EZ - 320.87 - 15.82 - 129.99 - 742.51 - 82.61 - 305.60
Fuel & Edge EZ & W/I - 362.22 - 41.35 - 171.34 - 818.80 - 76.29 381.89


I also got some info from a guy who runs a '98 Q/C, 12V Dodge. He reports his best HP to date is 748 with Fuel only and 804 with Water/Methanol. Now that's some Power! tongue.gif :cool: He said:

Needless to say I've been a little busy not to report. At the May Madness event I did a corrected 748.2 on diesel and 804.6 using a 50/50 mix, a little odd here Matt as the diesel run netted low temps at the hat so the water didn't drop them as much but made the same power, I usually gain about 50-60 hp unless I'm down on fuel then it makes more power on the water.

Yesterday I went down to the Dallas/Ft Worth Tx dyno days and laid down a slightly corrected 730 on fuel and 783 with the water(raw HP numbers were better than May Madness) but that was with one stage of water, I then tried the second stage and had a failure of the system and I was done. After I pulled off the dyno I found the issue, I've been getting my boost signal for the Hobbs switches from the little charger via a 1/4" plastic boost line, well it melted the hose from the air getting the fitting so hot....there's the failure, needless to say it won't happen again. All this makes me wonder were the power will go with a fresh motor, cam and a better O-ring setup so I can lean on it more.....boost on the dyno was 75psi!

[jbell]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50926&item=3824577793

I think this is what you want, if you want to only inject water at a set egt. It's programmable, and has the relay built in.

I'm considering it just for an egt gauge, and use the relay for a flashing 'attention' light / water on high egt's.

[whatnot]

Why would you want it to run off EGT? :confused: It would come on too late and run to long. It is the intake air that is what is trying to be cooled. If you want to use something fancy like that, you should have it monitor intake air temperature.