Sudden Death - The Ongoing Saga

[Bill H]

My 1996 C3500 6.5 TD, 116,000 mi, has bugun to suddenly die, sometimes right after starting cold and idling a few minutes, and sometimes while driving down the road. The problem started after the truck had been sitting idle for 3 weeks and was very hard to start. I added 6 gals fuel to the tank from a can. The gage was showing the tank nearly full, and when I added the 6 gals it barely fit, and I could see it foam up in the filler. It then finally started, but died while idling once or twice. It now seems to die occasionally, mostly early on after a cold start, rather than later on after the engine has had a chance to fully warm up. It sometimes starts up immediately after dying and sometimes it won't start after dying until I wait a few minutes. I've read a few posts from members with similar problems and I've printed out the "Turbo Tips No Start, Stall, DTC 35 or P1216" article from the member's area. I'm in the process of troubleshooting, and have filled the fuel tank, run some fuel from the drain into a glass jar and saw no water, and cleaned the battery connections. I replaced the front fuel line off the top of the IP with clear hose and saw no bubbles while running, but the next day saw a 1/16" bubble in the top of the clear loop before starting the engine. I then ran the engine with an easy start and no more bubbles observed while running and no bubble the following day. A friend hooked up his hand held computer and we saw a code 4, fuel volume regulator control circuit high, and a code 711, transmission fluid temperature sensor range/performance. These codes don't seem to correspond to the DTC's I printed out from the member's area or the codes listed in the Haynes Diesel Repair Manual. What gives with the codes? I got the truck on ebay 6 months ago and I had the Chevy dealer check my VIN # for repairs done by the privious leasees. The IP was changed in 1997 and the FSD in 2000. I changed the fuel filter 5 monthes (2000 mi) ago. I know there's a few troubleshooting steps before I go to the dealership for a new IP/FSD but right now I'm trying to prepare myself for how that might go down. I understand it's possible to have an intermittant problem with the FSD that won't throw a code, and the dealership won't honor the 120,000 mi warrenty without seeing a code. What exact code must they see? The local dealership said the IP is covered ($100 deductable) but not the FSD. I've seen some posts here that claim the FSD is actually covered with the IP under the 120,000 mi warrenty and that there's no $100 deductable. Who's right? If, as a last resort, I have to disconnect/start-attempt/reconnect the center IP electric connector to get a dealership approved code to indicate a new IP/FSD is needed, how much work is that? It looks like I have to take off the casting that connects the turbo to the intake, right? Is that tricky? Will there be just the one gasket to replace? Would you expect the dealer to be able to put the FSD on a cooler while they're doing the job? I'd hate to have the dealer install a new FSD, only to have me immediately remove it to put it on a cooler. It might almost be easier to buy a new FSD for the cooler and abandon the new one the dealer put on. Looking at the posts here, I get the feeling the FSD goes bad often enough that it should be put on a cooler even if it is not the culprit just yet.

[damork]

Have you checked the pressure of your lift pump fuel pressure coming to your fuel filter - you can check this by connecting a gauge to the water drain hose and reading the value with the engine running and with it shut off. Pressure reading when shut off is accomplished by hot wiring the power to the lift pump to see what you have.

You should maintain at least 3.-3.5 psi while running and see something like 7 psi when the engine is off. If you don't you may have a lift pump problem or the circuit that feeds it. The oil pressure switch (OPS) that sits on the back left top side of the engine is known for failing as the lift pump sometimes needs more power (current) than the switch contacts can handle. Adding a relay in that circuit fixes that. It may be something worth looking at.

[Bill H]

One more stray thought... Could my car alarm (with start-prevention hookup to the truck) somehow be shorting out and causing sudden death?

[ucdavis]

If you follow the Stalling checklist thoroughly, & post any questions here, you can solve the problem.
If you take it to the dealer you will get his/her interpretation of the warranty. Ask for the checklist they follow to diagnose the IP warranty/failure & compare that to the warranty (posted in two links just under the stalling article on Member's Area) to be sure you're getting the straight story.
The occasional bubble in the return tube is normal. I run w/the clear tube & get that regularly. The IP can tolerate a surprising amount of air; it isn't right if you see a stream of bubbles.

[rjwest]

Went through this,
1. stalling or no start with no codes , when cold
start, was FSD.....

2. Stalling after 10-30 minutes after start, no codes. Injector Pump.

In both cases , GM WAS NO HELP.....

IF NO CODES, CAN NOT SEE IT FAIL, Can't honor
warrenty.....Is there a cummins in my future?

[Bill H]

I just did part or all of the lift pump test, I'm not sure. I hooked up the gage to the drain line and opened the valve. I turned the key and heard the ticking that I assume is the lift pump running. I looked at the gage and it read 4psi. I started the motor and the gage still read 4psi. Then I thought the engine-running pressure might be just the residual pressure from the pre-start, so I disconnected the gage (went back to 0psi), closed the valve, reconnected it, started the motor and then opened the valve. Still read 4psi. When I turn off the engine I hear the ticking for a few seconds after the key is completely off. Is that normal? I don't understand the purpose of hot-wiring the pump if it starts to run as soon as I turn the key???

[Bill H]

ucdavis - Thanks for your input on the air bubble, and general encouragement. I was worried if even one tiny bubble could mean trouble, but I guess not. I used a piece of clear VINYL tubing on the 3" run between the IP and the tee going to front most injectors. The Turbo Tips says to use urethane tubing, which I couldn't find. Is vinyl just as good for a permanent replacement? Since I saw only the one tiny bubble, do I still need to substitute clear lines on the front most return lines, as directed by the Turbo Tips?

[ucdavis]

Clear tubing won't last as fuel line, so you'll want to check it periodially. The real issue is softening of the tubing when heated. Get it up to heat & recheck the installation. If it is too close to the coolant crossover stuff (mine was touching it) it will soften, & connections will start to leak. I wired a piece of towel between tubing & corssover to insulate it & now it is OK.
Sounds like lift pump is OK. The reason to wire around the OPS is that the AC Delco OPS (aka POS) is less than excellant in longevity, and if it fails (96 & later may be differnt w/a warning from the PCM?) there is no warning or obvious problem, IP will develope sufficient suction to keep rig running but not sufficient to keep IP lubricated, hence premature IP failure.

[toyboxrv]

I would go look for another dealer. The PMD is covered by the warranty, I had one replaced no charge, and there is no deductible. Mine wasn't showing any codes, but the knowledgeable tech hooked up his Tech II and saw the pulse width drop each time it missed. If they won't take the time to test they won't find a problem.

[Bill H]

toyboxrv - I've seen other posts about people paying $100 deductable and not getting the FSD included. What's the secret to get what's rightfully mine? If I can't find a dealership with a tech that knows what a pulse width drop means, what about the IP electrical connector disconnect routine. How can some some dealerships make you bend over, and others hand you the keys to the kingdom?

[Bill H]

ucdavis - First of all, thanks for the advise on the clear tubing. Mine is nowhere near anything hot, so I guess the vinyl is OK if I keep an eye on it. You never did say anything about substituting the front most injector return lines with clear tubing (per the Turbo Tips), but I gather you don't think I need to replace them since my air bubble was small on the top hose. I'm trying to understand what you said about the PCM. First of all what's a PCM? (Pump Control Module... I'm guessing) Is 4psi OK for both running and not running on the lifter pump? What is the 7psi hot-wired lifter pump pressure about? Is that important?

[charliepeterson]

I just found out that GM extended the Injection Pump Warranty all the way to the 2001 trucks. This warranty will cover both the Pump and PMD with NO Deductable for 11 years 120,000 miles no matter who owns the truck.

Document ID#1332172
Special Policy#00064D Dated 5-13-03

For anyone who has had the pump replaced by someone other than a dealer you're running out of time for reimbursement.
9-30-03 for a 2000 truck
5-31-04 for a 2001 truck

They increased the work sheet the dealer must go through to replace the Injection Pump.

Any trouble call:
1-800-222-1020 for Chevy.
1-800-462-8782 for GMC

[ucdavis]

Charlie,
Have you got a copy of the worksheet that might be posted here? If you do & can forward to MorePower w/the updated warranty, he will replace the pdf files in the Member's Area that have the Sept. '00 warranty. See post: MorePower- IP Warranty Update.
Thanks for the info.

[ 09-12-2003, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: ucdavis ]