Liquid intercooler Questions

[Dvldog 8793]

I know a couple of people out there have these set up. Can someone explain advantages/disadvantages. I'm thinking of building one, it seems like I should be able to put the thing anywhere I wanted?
Thanks in advance!
L8r
Conley

[JeepSJ]

The advantage is that they are more efficient than a air/air style, so you can use a smaller unit. This helps when space is limited.

Disadvantages are the cost and complexity.

[pannhead]

JeepSJ summed it up perfect

[Barry Nave]

Yea the water cooling BITH, WOO I'm thinking injecton, though I have one :D
Just playing, My DS4 post :mad:
How do we get re lived ;)

[Beedee]

Hey dvldog
Found this site a few weeks ago while I was surfing, there is a good FAQ section in it.

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/

Hope this helps smile.gif

[roclongrider]

Interesting website for Bell Intercoolers.
Does anybody have an idea what the airflow requirements are for a 6.5 application? I've always wanted to do the Liquid intercooler but the task looked a little formidable!

[Dvldog 8793]

I did a search on this sight for the CFM flow and found that it is only about 480CFM at 3000rpm. I figured a intercooler that flowed 800 should do the trick.
L8r
Conley

[cruzer]

Dvldog, Why do you need an I/C w/such a high CFM?
IIRC from GMCTD's math you should need somewhere around 400CFM for a 6.5TD. Just curious.

[Beedee]

Has anyone bought anything off of Bell?
I'd be intrested in hearing.

[Dvldog 8793]

Cruzer
My only reasoning would be "bigger is better"
If I do end up making one I will probably go with the biggest unit possible for the given space. I would think that if you have more surface area to do the cooling the better job it will do. This is a fairly new science to me and I'm still doing research. tongue.gif
L8r
Conley

[pannhead]

Dvldog...if you're interested,e-mail me and i'll send you a pic of my system which complies well with "bigger is better" :eek: ..i will be able to answer questions based on real world experience with our specific application,not to mention the fact that i'm not trying to sell you anything ;) ...my e-mail is pannhead51@aol.com

[Uncle Wally]

The number of approximately 431 cfm is for a non boostd engine.

There was a post in Dr. Lee's department that had to do with determining what would be a good turbo application. I posted some equations there that helps you figure out what you need for cfm. I was plugging in some numbers that were pushing the limits of boost pressure for a twin turbo setup, so there are some differences.

Once you have cfm requirements for a NA engine. Figure out what the boost pressure is your shooting for. For stock GM setup I would say 12 psi max. Plug that in for a Pressure Ratio. You should get about 1.8. Multiply your NA cfm requirement by the PR and you should have a cfm requirement of about 775 cfm for an engine that has 12 psi of boost.

An intercooler may be rated for 800 cfm, but there are also a lot of parasitic losses due to friction etc. in the plumbing from turbo to intake. If you really wanted to make sure you had enough cfm, I would look for something rated in the 1000 cfm range. Not saying that there wouldn't be enough losses in the plumbing to drag it down below 775 cfm.

The other thing to remember. Most people do not run their trucks at max boost all the time. In fact, even on mine with the bigger turbo and no wastegate, I need a good grade or a load to even get close to max boost levels. So 800 cfm might be adequate for a vehicle that runs light most, if not all, of the time.

Just a little note - this info was gathered from Turbonetics. I am still awaiting a reply from them on some explanation of their compressor maps for the twin turbo setup (even after several attempts to contact them).

Waldo

[Harvey_Cannon]

The next problem (it might be the biggest)is keeping the water cool that cools the air?

Harv

-------------
83 PU
82 Blazer
92 4x4 PU
93 1 Ton
All diesels and doing well

[Dvldog 8793]

So far my thinking for cooling the water is going to be th largest radiator that I can fit inbetween the box side and frame on the passenger side. I'll use elec fans and ducting to get some air to it. I may even use two such settups, one on each side. This is all really pipe dreams right now ;) If the weather stays cold up here for awhile something may happen this winter :D
Thanks for all the input and keep it coming!
L8r
Conley

[Peter J. Bierman]

On construction equipment we use the water from the lower radiator hose with a seperate pump to cool the intercooler.
These machines are on full power most of the time and this setup work ok.
But with all the new emission regulations the watercooled intercooler has to go in favour off the aircooled one couse the intake temp gets lower with this system.

Peter

[BuffaloGuy]

Unless.... you pull out of the bottom of the radiator, go to another radiator and then to the intake. That should get the fluid down to air temp. and do a great job.

After the fluid leaves the intake it can just go back to the top of the main radiator.

I wish someone would build a liquid intercooler that bolted up sandwiched between the plenium and the intake manifold. That would be sweet and it wouldn't take much room either.

A tap at the bottom of the radiator and another on the top (opposite side), the proper pump, a small radiator and some hose and you'd be set to go.

Ken

[Dvldog 8793]

If I build my own L.I.C. it is going to be a new upper intake. Probably partially machined and partially fabbed aluminum. I have an extra upper intake that I plan on using as a pattern so my truck won't be down for 2-3years that this little pipe dream takes :D .
I am also going to try to stay away from using any of the engine cooling system because my truck runs fairly cool and I don't want to mess that up. Also if I use engine coolant then the system may act like a heater on some days. This will be a learning experience and I will keep the board posted. meanwhile keep the info coming! ;)
L8r
Conley

[Uncle Wally]

dvldog - did you steal my idea? <<laughes>>

I was going to do the same thing - but when I firgured out what I would need to buy, it changed my mind in a hurry

Waldo

[Dvldog 8793]

Uncle Wally-
As I said I'm gonna make most of it and the guy next door own a slavage yard :D that I can pick through! I'm thinking I can do the whole thing for about $500.00. That would be mainly for the core itself and misc little stuff tongue.gif
L8r
Conley

[MTTwister]

Has anyone considered using an air-conditioning 'unit' ( not sure what to call it - brain dead - the in-cab 'radiator' part - you know..) to cool the air charge? It Sure can cool down the cab, why not also cool the air charge?
Put two in series - cool the cab first - then the air charge?

Or even a switched plumbing setup - in case you don't want to A/C the cab.. or need to cool the air charge first?

[pannhead]

there is a place that makes a/c intercoolers, its coolflow.com, i've thrown the idea of maybe incorporating and a/c to help chill the water with a heat exchanger in the suction line to achieve below ambient iat since the a/c is already on anyways in the summer....might be overkill though,not to mention the extra strain on an already fragil GM a/c system

[Dvldog 8793]

How about this-
Use a liquid system remote for all-the-time cooling and a small air-to-air right on top of the intake with a NO2 spray system to super cool the charge only when you needed it! :eek: It works for the 4-banger-turbo-super-rice-rocket crowd, it should work for us :D
KEEP ON DREAMIN!
Speed is just a question of money, how fast do ya wanna go?
L8r
Conley

[pannhead]

Dvldog...it must be getting REAL slow there at the fab/welding shop :D ...few more days you'll be thinking liquid nitrogen :D you got my pic o.k. ?

[JeepSJ]

Originally posted by Dvldog 8793:
...how fast do ya wanna go?
I thought it was "How fast do you want to spend?"
:D :eek: :D :eek:

[Dvldog 8793]

Liquid nitrogen??? HMMMMmmmm :rolleyes: :D

This is getting silly!
....But still interesting
I wonder how many discussions Eddison had like this?
L8r
Conley

[Beedee]

Hey Dvldog, thinking about your project on the drive home tonight, got home and read all the posts again and realized that you allready thought of putting the cooling rad beside the box. On some of the machines at work that run water cooled intecooler, they only run 5/8 hose to the coolers (this would be on a B series cummins I think they are about 8 liters) so since you have a salvage yard close, my thought is to check out to see if they have any school bus heater cores. Some of them can be huge, the size of a small radiator and they already have 5/8 of 3/4 hose conections and they also make a booster pump for the heating system (designed to run in hot antifreeze) 12 volt powered...
The other thing that I was going to do, since I live on an Island, and there are boats everywhere, and since boats don't use radiators or air to air intercooler, but they do use water cooled intercooler, is to check out one of my buddies and see what the Volvo Diesels run.
I'll keep you posted with what I find.
I like the liquid nitrogen idea, but why stop there go with liquid oxygen and plumb the excess into the intake, imagine all that extra dense extra cold o2 going to work :D

[Dvldog 8793]

BeeDee
The school bus core idea sounds like what I need. I'll check it out ;)
PURE Liquid O2 injection?!?
Certainly would be interesting, Ever seen anyone try to run air tools off an Oxygen cylinder? :eek: :eek: :eek:
I don't think I would want to be driving that rig when the button was pushed! :D
L8r
Conley

[Beedee]

Remember watching the Saturn 5 rockets take off :D :D

[Beedee]

Just another post for anyone who might be reading this,
Do No try to run air tools off of an oxygen cyl, It would really ruin your day

[Peter J. Bierman]

Volvo industrial and Penta engine use watercooled intercoolers mounted inside the intake manifold.
They are fed by indeed 5/8 and a beltdriven pump.
They are however very "open" structured to get air flow going. A heater core is much finer and would give probably more restriction.
But you can always try. :D
If only used on a hard run, why not go to waterinjection.

Peter

[Dvldog 8793]

Just so everyone is on track:
:eek: DO NOT TRY TO RUN ANYTHING BUT A CUTTING TORCH OFF OF AN OXYGEN CYLINDER! :eek:
As stated by Beedee it will ruin your day if not your life!

Peter:
I am thinking of using the heater core for cooling the water that I run in the intercooler.
I checked today and I can get a bus core that is 24x14x3.5 and it will fit under the bed of truck. Now I have to design an intercooler that will bolt onto the lower intake. Shouldn't be to hard and should be fairly clean looking as it will only have an inlet. So it will be similar to the big coolers that you are describing.
L8r
Conley

[Beedee]

Never got time to hit the boat shops up today.
Had to deal with "THE CAR" (92 Geo Metro) :mad: :mad: :mad:
But I will keep on it, next week some time.
Glad to see you found a core from a bus, thought that it might work.
Have a good weekend.

[Peter J. Bierman]

That should do the trick, I think.
But you do need and extra circulation pump to have enough flow through the core and intercooler.

Peter

[a5150nut]

One day I walked into a truck shop in Fort Worth to find one of our "Formans" painting crane rails with water base paint. You guesed it! He had no air compressor but he was pluged into an O2 bottle! :confused: He even got mad at me when I unpluged the hose...... :mad: Go figure.

And this guy was a nuke certified welder. He worked on the San Onofre reactor.

[Beedee]

Okay, got down to the boat shop and the rad shop today, think I might have found something that you could work with. Water cooled intercooler off of a volvo marine. If you are intrested, I'll take some pics and send to you. They have a few take offs, should be able to get very cheap, not to mention that the American $ is worth about $1.33 today.
Let me know and I'll get you some more info.
PS if it works, I want pics so I can do the same :D

[Beedee]

Just another foot note.
Looking back on the posts, Peter Bierman said they are mounted in the manifold, these ones are not. They are in a seperate box that could be mounted anywhere.

[Jim P]

You guys talking about using a school bus heater core is very interesting.

My brother-in-law works at a school bus salvage yard and can get about anything. I think I have one of these 12 coolant pumps out in the garage that he got for me a while ago.

Where were you guys thinking of mounting the heater core at? Were you thinking of also having a fan on it or just use the air from driving down the road?

For the heat exchanger part, could a guy make this? I was thinking of taking off the upper intake and using a copper plate to bolt to the lower intake and then use a copper pipe to connect this plate to the turbo. Then you could build a copper box around the plate and the pipe for the water to circulate through. All this could be soldered together for a water tight seal.

I have some copper sheet left over from a solar water heater that I made for our house. I could probably get a thicker copper plate at work for bolting to the lower intake.

I guess a guy could also use aluminum but I have no way of welding aluminum.

Does anyone think this might work?

[Jim P]

I checked out some water to air intercoolers on the net and I noticed that the inside of the intercoolers have fins just like a radiator. So an open pipe surrounded by water probably would not be very efficient at transfering the heat from the air to the water.


I had another brainstorm(more storm than brain).
How about removing the upper intake and mounting a smaller heater core over top of the lower intake. It would have to be all boxed in and then make a new upper intake that would mount on top of this. These parts could be fabricated but I think I will try to cast them from aluminum. I have tinkered with aluminum castings and I still have my furnace for melting the aluminum. After the parts are cast, I could machine the mounting surfaces. The two holes for the heater core tubes could be bored through the side right at the split where the two pieces bolt together. I could machine oring grooves in these holes and an oring could be slipped over the heater core tubes before setting the heater core in place. when the top part is bolted on it would seal up around the tubes to keep the boost from leaking out.

I checked on heater cores sizes and one from a Ford Escort measures 7 3/4 x 6 x 2. Do you guys think that this would be big enough to not cause too much restriction?

[Beedee]

Hi Jim P.
If you check back a few posts, it will answer a few of your questions. Dvldog is thinking of using the schoolbus heater core as a radiator to cool the water for the intercooler. What I was trying to do was find an old intercooler (hopefully for free, if not then really cheap) that I could send to him. Then after he does all the R$D, he could send me some pics so I could do the same.
:D :D :D

[Dvldog 8793]

Howdy
Replaceing the upper intake is what I had in mind. (see prior posts) I don't think that a heater core will work for the intercooler. It may do something, but probably not enough. I've been talk to to different intercooler companies and have yet to get a price for what I want. Probably means it's too much! :mad: The base for this unit will probably be machined from billet and the housing will be fabbed from aluminum.
BEEDEE- Sounds great see if you can get some pictures and dimensions. After checking there really isn't allot of space without redesigning the engine! :D
the_janssens@earthlink.net
L8r
Conley

[Beedee]

Hey Dvldog, I'll get some pics coming your way real soon. I don't have a digital camera, so have to go the old way and scan the pics after the get developed. Will be a few days, but I WILL get them to you.

[Jim P]

Pannhead,

I was wondering if you could e-mail me those pictures of your system.

I tried to send you an e-mail but none of my outgoing mail seems to be getting through.

My e-mail is jpfarmer@raex.com

[CaseyR]

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know what typical input and output air temperatures might be in the water cooled intercooler in either a standard boost or an increased boost situation?

[pannhead]

i can only partially answer your question....i spike at 15psi,(primitive test)with intercooler off i can IAT easily get above 200 degrees...with intercooler on i cant get it over 80-90 no matter what i do....i suppose to do the test correctly you would need 2 AIT gauges (or 2 channel) and a bunch of other expensive stuff

[Beedee]

Pics on the way Dvldog 89793, let me know if you didn't get them

[Shotuscnc]

spoke with a diesel machinist/drag racer about liquid intercooler ideas... turns out he runs one on his drag car... using a toyota a/c evaporator core sandwiched within the intake... he is putting out well over 700hp from his turbo chev V6.. running 6.0's in 1/8th mile... i am going to find an intake system and begin fabrication... he uses an oil cooler for water cooling... 1/2in lines.. probably will have to use an independent electric pump.. can't imagine where to tap into 6.5TD cooling system to get cooler water AND positive pressure to drive I/C... anybody got a spare intake..

[Jim P]

My brother-in-law works at a school bus salvage yard and last night I asked him about the 12 volt coolant tranfer pumps that the busses use to pump the coolant back to the rear heater. He said they get $10.00 to $15.00 for them depending on condition. He said some look like new. He also said that they use 1" hoses on them.

[Dvldog 8793]

Howdy
From what I've learned, the drag racer idea wouldn't work that great for our applications.
(1) drag racing last for 6.0 seconds. you don't really have to worry about heat loading your cooling system. :D
(2) I think you want to keep the system independant of the engine coolant. On a cool day if you use engine coolant it would actually heat up the charge.
People thinking like this are what makes things happen! :D Keep the ideas rolling!
L8r
Conley

[Shotuscnc]

hi dvldog... guess you haven't been to the dragstrip lately... hot turbo's are the rage.. and intercoolers are quite elaborate... they want the most dense charge possible for the intake system... exact same principle that i am after... although i do expect my engineering will enable intercooler life measured in 10's of thousands of miles..

believe i can use another intake top half as a sandwich to mount my toyota evaporator..

my response re: using engine coolant was follow-up to an idea posed by others.. looking for that reliable electric pump for independant system.

will get pictures of my mock-up as available.

Chris

[Dvldog 8793]

Chris-
It's been a few years since I raced the GTO! :D
Anyways, it sounds like you're on track to get your project done before mine. Try to get some temp readings before and after. Or try to set up a charge temp gauge before you put the system on.
That way we can SEE what is going on. How many gallons of coolant are you thinking of using?
Also there seems to be allot of pumps for sale on ebay and I think JEGS($$$ :eek: ) also has some.
Keep us posted.
L8r
Conley