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sctrailrider
10-01-2022, 14:14
While you browse through this, keep one thing in mind, my motto is “if it's worth doing it's worth over doing”

This is my personal P400 build, this was a planed purpose built motor, this won't be a long drawn out read, I will give a short list of some of the details. This is my last planed personal build for “ Black Betty “. I decided to take the build as far as possible and update everything I knew how as well as bring a little new technology into this “ dinosaur” motor when possible and maybe put some of my past background in Alcohol motors to use and maybe inspire others to embrace new technology and think outside the box.

This build is NOT an attempt at the highest HP or the baddest 6.5 around, it's going into a 93 Dually for heavy towing and retirement travels, this will be a sustainable workhorse, I attempted to move the torque curve as well as maximize the amount of torque and maybe the HP followed.

I am publishing this merely for reading and ideas for others.

I consider the heads the lungs of a motor, the better it can breath the stronger the heart will be with less stress. I flowed a new, stock P400 head and my personal set of heads ( stage 3 ) to compare, flow data was captured every .050” lift on both heads to ensure a true comparison, charts are posted in this thread as well. NOTE – my personal set are as far from stock the castings allow.. the flowing of stock vs my stage 3 heads is only to show the possibility's that can be gained in the lungs of the motor.

Their will be more pics from me than comments so enjoy...

For those that don't know, “ Black Betty “ is a 1993 Chevy Dually long bed, 5 speed manual, black with sand interior, near perfect condition, this should be my last truck and if all goes well it will be my grandsons one day.

For starters, I sent the entire disassembled motor off and had everything Cryogenic Treated, this is said to give strength to the parts and make things more durable and stable. I purchased all new bolts due to everything being of the TTY version on this motor.

Below is the short version of what was done.

Now, I started with a new crate P400 purchased a few years ago with the intent to do exactly what I did, everything I could do and make a dependable heavy tow rig ready for retirement trips, yes, I'm close to that age...


Intake Manifold


I think the stock manifold works well for stock motors and for what it's designed for, however I wanted something a little better and being a fabricator I wanted something my hands made so I designed something different that is able to not only look good but also complement the motor.


Turbo Headers

They are in the works now but not ready, they will be shown at a later time..

The Block


After the cryogenic treatment, I had my machine shop, clean, check all the measurements even tho this was a new never run motor, and I provided new Ceramic coated cam bearings to replace the stock bearings. It was found the decks were not true with the crank bore so both decks were machined with a finish surface for MLS head gaskets.


Rods & Pistons


I spent some time on the cnc milling machine and did a little machining to lower the compression ratio a bit and include the needed valve pockets this motor would need using split ratio rockers combined with cam changes. Once that was complete I gave the rods a Thermal Dispersant/Oil Shedding coating to aid in cooling. The pistons were balanced then they got my 3 sided treatment, Thermal Barrier tops, Molybdenum Lubricant skirts, and Thermal Dispersant underside, all to keep as much heat out of the parts as possible and extend longevity, I also ditched the stock ring set and purchased a full Total Seal gapless ring set. The coating's used provide less heat growth and is a self lubricant and becomes very slick and durable.

Rotating Assembly

Back to the shop everything went, the assembly was balanced to race specs, weight was added to the crank, I did not want to go the easy path and remove weight.


Cam

I found a company that was willing and able to produce a cam to my specs. One major change was changing the LSA from 110 to 106 along with duration changes.

Heads


I consider the heads the lungs of a motor, the better it can breath the stronger the heart will be with less stress. I flowed a new, stock P400 head and my personal set of heads ( stage 3 ) to compare, flow data was captured every .050” lift on both heads to ensure a true comparison, charts are posted in this thread as well. NOTE – my personal set are as far from stock the castings allow.. the flowing of stock vs my stage 3 heads is only to show the possibility's that can be gained in the lungs of the motor.
I had the largest intake & exhaust valves installed the heads will accept, then off to the cnc, I machined around the seats to maximize flow and un-shroud the valves. A lot of time was spent on a milling machine in all the runners, then the hand work started in the runners on porting. Next I cut all the valve seal bosses so the more common size seals could be used. Once all the work was complete it was time for a 3 angle valve job and cutting the gasket surfaces to match the decks. I filled the EGR port to keep even more heat out of the head. The runners were coated in a “ TL Heat Stop Thermal Barrier “ this has been proven to prevent exhaust heat from moving into the head. The chambers were coated with CBX a Thermal Barrier that reflects heat, the lower portion of the exhaust valves also got this coating, the upper portion of the valves got a dry film lubricant/oil holding coating to make them slick. I left the precups alone but did apply a Thermal Barrier in the injector hole under the cups to reflect heat outward.


Other Internal Work

I noticed during tear down the bearing clearances were on the loose side from what I like but I had planed to use new anyway. I coated all main & rod bearings and set them aside for later. I also had a new DSG timing gear drive, it got coated as well, The oil pump was taken apart, a Molybdenum Lubricant coating went on the gears and inside while a Thermal Dispersant went on the outside as well as modifying to produce more pressure and flow. Both main & rod bearing clearances were set at .0018 - .0020”.

Crankshaft

The P400 has a forged crankshaft, it went to cryo treat with all the other parts. Before the balancing I removed the lumps & bumps and polished it to a mirror finish. After balancing I applied a Thermal Dispersant/oil shedding coating.


Rockers – Valve Springs – Pushrods – Lifters


I consulted a valve spring manufacture to find optium valve spring for this build, this motor has different springs on the intake & exhaust, I did away with the rotators, had a set of spring cups and retainers made for both intake & exhaust spring as neither have the same measurements. I coated the rocker shafts and fitted them to the heads. In the pushrod area, stock wasn't going to work, (they weren't strong enough and they weren't the correct length) I again consulted a well known pushrod manufacture to come up with a pushrod, I landed on a 7/16 pushrod that should keep the valve geometry stable. I also chose to take full advantage of the valve lift throughout the rpm range, so I purchased a set of “slow bleed” HD lifters, these are a bit different in that they act like solid lifters but are still hyd rollers, and the rocker's are 2 different ratios.

Fueling

I purchased a NEW Ceramic Injection pump, had a shop in Texas perform major internal work, the result is a DB2 that puts out 161cc's and moved the governor to 4500rpm's, a new matching set of true Bosch marine injectors compliment the system.

Turbo

A Holset HE351VE turbo and a “ Banshee “ controller will be used, the turbo has a few modifications as well, coated internally and coated veins to prevent soot buildup, and different wheels than a stock unit uses.

External

I gave as much of the external portion of the motor a Ceramic coating as possible, brackets got a chrome like coating, other parts got Thermal Dispersants, some got Heat barriers, all in a attempt to keep heat under control and keep things corrosion free for many years to come.


Further truck mods include, rear disc brakes, some frame strengthening, CAC, etc... This truck will spend most of it's time pulling a large trailer, western US, Alaska is on our bucket list, and only a few years till retirement traveling time...


So, that's a quick run down, hope you enjoy the pictures..

sctrailrider
10-01-2022, 14:29
679267936794679567966797

sctrailrider
10-01-2022, 14:31
679867996800680168026803

sctrailrider
10-01-2022, 14:33
680468056806680768086809

sctrailrider
10-01-2022, 14:35
681068116812681368146815

sctrailrider
10-01-2022, 14:38
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2INSANE
10-01-2022, 19:28
Very nice! When can we expect to see videos?

sctrailrider
10-02-2022, 04:13
Won't be long and it will be on the run in stand, working towards a engine dyno stand for this and customer builds..

Yukon6.2
10-02-2022, 09:39
On your Alaska trip...
Stop in Haines Junction,Yukon i would love to see it in person and meet you.
Depending on how many years it is befor you make the trip,i may have a RV spot for you if you want to spend a few days here.
I bought a lot this summer that will become my storage facility,with 4-6 deep service RV sites for those who want/have to spend the winter in an RV or tiny house.

sctrailrider
10-02-2022, 12:29
On your Alaska trip...
Stop in Haines Junction,Yukon i would love to see it in person and meet you.
Depending on how many years it is befor you make the trip,i may have a RV spot for you if you want to spend a few days here.
I bought a lot this summer that will become my storage facility,with 4-6 deep service RV sites for those who want/have to spend the winter in an RV or tiny house.

We would like that, I had planned to retire next spring and even gave my work notice, then wouldn't ya know it they made me a offer to stay I just couldn't refuse.

I did hear Canada has changed there requirement to have a vac or no crossing, so now maybe we will be able to drive up after all some day, their is a fella on another forum that lives in Willow we want to visit also so maybe spend a summer traveling ...

arveetek
10-02-2022, 14:48
Very nice!

Would you mind sharing some more information and details and what appears to be a coolant bypass system on the heads? I haven't seen one set up like that before.

Casey

sctrailrider
10-02-2022, 15:38
Well, the P400 heads are a different casting than all the others, I cut one in half after I broke through porting where I hadn't on other heads, so I cut it so I could see why, well the cooling passages inside are very different. As with the other heads the passage between the valves doesn't have much flow, and the upper half of that passage is a dead hole that traps air and the highest point of the water passage's so it will fully purge all the air from the cooling system.

I removed the plugs under the intake runners and taped it, ran all lines into a single distribution block with 1 outlet going to the water crossover, made a block that sits on top or the radiator side of the thermostat to allow a small amount of flow all the time. The turbo is water cooled so it also dumps in that same place.

This mod won't fit under a stock lower manifold, the one I'm using is much taller and has lots of room under it.

More Power
10-03-2022, 10:30
...This is my personal P400 build, this was a planed purpose built motor, this won't be a long drawn out read, I will give a short list of some of the details. This is my last planed personal build for “ Black Betty “. I decided to take the build as far as possible and update everything I knew how as well as bring a little new technology into this “ dinosaur” motor when possible and maybe put some of my past background in Alcohol motors to use and maybe inspire others to embrace new technology and think outside the box.

This build is NOT an attempt at the highest HP or the baddest 6.5 around, it's going into a 93 Dually for heavy towing and retirement travels, this will be a sustainable workhorse, I attempted to move the torque curve as well as maximize the amount of torque and maybe the HP followed.

I am publishing this merely for reading and ideas for others.... clip

Good for you! It's too bad GM didn't do some of this for the 6.5 when they could have.

I know GM Powertrain created a set of experimental DI heads for the 6.5 (I came real close to getting a set of those heads), and I spoke to a guy in Sweden a few years later who produced a set of aluminum DI heads for the 6.5. If it had been me, I would have adapted the early Duramax high pressure common rail fuel injection system and pistons that look like those used in the Duramax to it as well. Then, fueling would not be a limit to performance - and it would still be relatively quiet.

The DS4 and marine DB4 4-plunger pumps produce something like near 80's mm3/stroke at max torque rpm to high 70's at the governor. You have a DB2 that can deliver 161? Please explain. The original 2001 LB7 Duramax 6600 was emissions-certified to produce 300-hp @ 3100-RPM (at the flywheel) with a fuel-rate of 91.7mm3. At least that's what is printed on the emissions sticker on Lil Red's engine. The turbocharger used on that LB7 delivered a maximum boost pressure of about 20-psi.

Good job, thx for sharing... Jim

sctrailrider
10-03-2022, 14:21
The DS4 and marine DB4 4-plunger pumps produce something like near 80's mm3/stroke at max torque rpm to high 70's at the governor. You have a DB2 that can deliver 161? Please explain. The original 2001 LB7 Duramax 6600 was emissions-certified to produce 300-hp @ 3100-RPM (at the flywheel) with a fuel-rate of 91.7mm3. At least that's what is printed on the emissions sticker on Lil Red's engine. The turbocharger used on that LB7 delivered a maximum boost pressure of about 20-psi.

Good job, thx for sharing... Jim

Thanks Jim,

For the IP, it started life as a DB2833-6284, new, ceramic internals. It was built keeping 7psi inlet pressure. I had another pump on my last build that was built the same way, I haven't used this pump yet, it was very streetable, got great mileage, and gave that motor all it ever needed grossing 20K +, I had NO trouble keeping up in any road condition engine never ran hot, in fact it wanted to run too cool most of the time but that was due to the coatings doing there job.

I had a diesel cam guru help with a cam profile for this engine's specs, it is very different over anything I have found tried with these motors so I'm hoping it does what the program says it will...

6832

sctrailrider
10-03-2022, 14:58
There is a reputable small company in TX, Classic Diesel Design that builds DB pumps mostly fords, but is doing gm DB's also, they can build some impressive output pumps, well over 200CC's, but those are race only type of pumps, not what I need....

Yukon6.2
10-04-2022, 10:14
We would like that, I had planned to retire next spring and even gave my work notice, then wouldn't ya know it they made me a offer to stay I just couldn't refuse.

I did hear Canada has changed there requirement to have a vac or no crossing, so now maybe we will be able to drive up after all some day, their is a fella on another forum that lives in Willow we want to visit also so maybe spend a summer traveling ...
Yes the requirements to cross the border are back to a passport.
This last summer was a pain for me getting my freight from Haines Alaska.
I was sure i would be heading to court to defend myself.
My business was designated as an essential service at the beginning of covid.
This year they exempted me on my first trip,but expected me to quarantine the remainder of the 4 trips i did before the requirements were dropped.
I refused to comply
I am the only employee of Source Motors LTD
there are numerous things that HAVE to be looked after as it is a gas station,and some of them are requirements of laws.
Guberment always screws up a free lunch,let alone life of a small business owner

More Power
10-05-2022, 11:54
There is a reputable small company in TX, Classic Diesel Design that builds DB pumps mostly fords, but is doing gm DB's also, they can build some impressive output pumps, well over 200CC's, but those are race only type of pumps, not what I need....

The pumping plungers have a finite volume. Plus, it takes time to fill the plungers, which becomes more difficult at higher engine speeds. This makes 200cc appear to be unlikely at anything much above idle. I saw in an earlier post that his pumps can deliver 99ccs at 4500-rpm... Again, the LB7 Duramax was rated for 300-fwhp with 91.7cc and 20-psi boost pressure at 3100-rpm. That is the formula for 300 horsepower on fuel alone.

After having seen the 6.5 dyno'ed literally hundreds of times, I've only ever seen a 6.5 break the 300 horsepower barrier one time on a chassis dyno. It had everything but the kitchen sink thrown at it... nitrous, water/methanol, propane, and his biggest 6.5 program. It only had to make it for a second, which was a good thing...

Through the years there have been a few who advertised impossible numbers for their 6.5 products. None (except, I suppose, the kitchen sink guy) could prove it. Be careful, ask to see verifiable data.

More here: https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?29568-6-2-6-5-Dyno-Data

sctrailrider
10-05-2022, 14:44
Those high cc pumps are running high inlet pressures, really high, and I have seen a few of his pumps on a dyno, and they are what he claims them to be...

He didn't build my pump and I don't need a pump like those...

Robyn
10-08-2022, 07:32
Over the years we have seen all manner of wild performance specs come down the pike....

As Jim Mentioned "Verifiable numbers" that can be backed up..

I have built several 6.5 engines over the years and have been around several other builds.....The quest for impressive power on a 6.5 has been a path taken by many ......Way more than I care to count have ended in failure......

Jim had a very nice running engine project some years back....It ran good and lived a long long time......

The 6.5 is a decent runner.....to a point......AMG block and heads.....A decent turbo and a good crank......300 hp can be achieved......And the beast will live.....More than 15 psi boost and the stage is set for a failure.......

Not enough head bolts......Pre cup engines are just not the platform for big power....At least not one that will live a long time.....

I wish I could toss a lot of good feelings towards big power in this platform.....Just seen too many go away....seen too many goody yum yums that were items to look cool and make $$$$ ....Nothing in the way of good data to back up the claims...


I do hope that your project comes out good and serves you really well.....

Keep the power numbers conservative....Boost below 15 psi.....EGT below 1000F on a hard pull and life should be great....:D

Another big issue is getting rid of the heat.....The cooling stack is just too marginal in stock form to deal with big heat.....