98 GMC Suburban Revival [Archive] - TheDieselPage.com Forums

Yukon6.2

02-14-2022, 09:24

Hi All
I need a road trip vehicle for a spring road trip which will include visiting a friend that has a 100+ kilometer unmaintained driveway.
So i chose the diesel Suburban that had been left behind by the PO,with plans to retrieve at a later date.I had given him a pickup in trade,that he was supposed to return in similar shape.He passed away and his family did not want to retrieve the Suburban.
I did a quick assessment when i cleaned out a pickup load of cloths from it a couple years ago and got it running.
The cat was plugged solid,i removed it and it ran.Brakes were gone so i did not drive it much.
At the moment it needs complete brake job,alternator wasn't charging and running like crap.

So i am looking for ideas on the crap running part.

It's not throwing a code,but acting like it's still stuffed up.Lots of black smoke and no power.
To get it running a few years ago i had to wire in the lift pump,relocated the PMD from the intake to in front of the left battery behind a hole in the rad support.
Online last night got me a price of $1600.00 for master cyl,rear shoes,drums wheel cyl,seals,hardware,front rotors,pads,calipers and alternator.Delivery March 4th.Going to see what prices are like with my account local.
I hope to get a few weeks driving before the road trip.
Interior needs to come out for a good cleaning.
Thanks for any insite and advice as i move forward.
Thomas6441

Yukon6.2

02-14-2022, 09:29

A few more pic's
can't remove the triple pic from the last post.644364446445Going to change the regulator in the Alt and see if that fixes it,looks good inside.

Yukon6.2

02-17-2022, 09:54

Well that didn't work...old computer
Interior is stripped out,floor looks great for a 24 year old truck
Going to pressure wash the carpet and try to get it looking close to one shade of grey
Borrowed a good PMD from Sis in Law and got a new alternator as changing the regulator didn't fix the old one.No core on the new alt so i will continue to try and fix the original,it looks good inside.
Have all new parts for the brake job,all from Napa came very close to online prices,exchanges will be a lot easier than mail if there is an issue.
Hopefully the PMD solves the running issue,otherwise i will be looking for advice for hunting demons.64486449

Yukon6.2

02-18-2022, 09:37

So a known good PMD did not solve the issue
Background...
A couple years ago i did an initial look at the Sub.
I found the fuel pump wiring messed up,the PMD was mounted to the intake and the big one the Cat was plugged solid.
I fixed the issues moved the pmd and removed the Cat.The brakes were totaly gone so i did not drive it other than around my yard,and parked it.
Fast forward to last week
I put a couple battery's in it and it fires right up.
It had settled into the dirt a bit so it was like trying to drive over a 2x4 in front of each wheel.
As i gave to throttle it started to surge and it was blowing black smoke like crazy,eventually i got it rocked out of it's holes and drove it around the yard lots of black smoke and surging,got it into my shop and now am stumped.
Borrowed a PMD from SIL that is a known good one after trying an extra i had,removing the extension cable to the remote mount and hooking back to the factory cable and intake mount the running issues didn't change other than it will not start now,actually it will fire but die as soon as you release the key.If you keep the key in the crank position it will fire and die while cranking.If you keep cranking for an extended time it will try to fire again but not quite as long as the initial fire from a cranking event you just start.
Fuel pump is working
Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks Thomas

a5150nut

02-18-2022, 10:46

Have you checked the intake and filter box for uninvited guests or remnants of their housing?

DmaxMaverick

02-18-2022, 14:15

Black smoke = too little air, for whatever reason. As said, perhaps uninvited guests in the plumbing. Or, the WG is stuck open, or not being pulled closed (vacuum or WG control issue). An improperly grounded PMD harness can cause surging/missing. The ground from the harness MUST be connected to the pump housing. The surging could also be caused by air in the system (and cause a no-start, once air-locked). Attach a looped, clear line to the filter outlet and run the lift pump (into a container, of course). Any air intrusion should show itself.

Yukon6.2

02-19-2022, 09:38

I did check for the ground and it was conected
I took the elbow from the air box off to verify the turbo wasn't seized.
I checked the lift pump for operation,jumper-ed it to verify flow to filter and drain spigot.
Yesterday was a very warm sunny day so i took advantage of that and pressure washed the carpets
Day before i got the front brakes installed,bearing feel good.One hub had deformations on the face from some a previous repair.I filed it flat so the rotor would fit flush,makes me wonder if it had a pulsing pedal from those dents.A good chance the rotor would not be true to the hub.
A couple shots of before and after the carpet wash,24year old carpet will still show some shades of discoloration but at least its clean and if i drop some food on it i will be confident on picking it up and eating it.
64506451

Robyn

02-20-2022, 08:19

Any codes showing SES ON ???

Yukon6.2

02-20-2022, 10:29

It hasn't ran since i drove it into the garage,not that it was running great then.But it was running.
My plan is to add a pressure gauge to the fuel system,make sure the ground is actually grounding on the pump for the PMD harness Those are next steps on the running department.
When it was running a couple years ago it smoked bad,my theory was with the exhaust being plugged,and the PO driving it till it would die for days to try and get to our town.I think the injectors may have suffered some damage,from the back pressure of the exhaust being plugged.
I tried to pull codes and there were none,the ses light is on but seeing it will not start i can't see if it stays on.
Yesterday i cleaned up the mess that was the back brakes,black oily mess,all my tools are black that i was using.Got them pulled apart hubs pulled everything cleaned up for when the rest of my parts come in.
I may get time to add the gauge today,if not tomorrow i have to deliver fuel so there will be no update for Monday.
Thanks for all the help
Thomas

Yukon6.2

02-21-2022, 08:56

I hooked a pressure gauge into the line with the drain spigot at the front of the engine,it showed around 8PSI before and during the start sequence where it fires and dies.
The ground wire was tested to see if there was ground at the terminal.
And pulled a couple codes
P1626 Anti-theft system fuel enable CKT
U1000 class 2 serial comm, problem
These were found with a Snapon MT2500 "red brick"

DmaxMaverick

02-21-2022, 09:31

If it cranks, or tries to start then stalls, and you get the P1626, the BCM isn't receiving the correct signal from the ignition cylinder. Check fuses (primarily the IGN and Instrument/gage fuses). It could be a wrong or damaged key, ign. harness damage/connection issue, or a failed or incorrectly programmed BCM. If you have an original key, try clearing the DTC's and try again. The U1000 may indicate the signal is simply missing, which suggests an open or grounded signal circuit. If the PCM, BCM connections are good (remove/reconnect them), and the ign. connector is good and undamaged, try disconnecting both/all batteries and ground one of the Batt+ cables to ground for 30 minutes. Reconnect and try again. This system check can be bypassed entirely with a Tech II, but I don't know if you can do it with your MT2500.

Yukon6.2

02-22-2022, 10:27

I only have the one key for the truck,and it looks like an original key.It has the GM in the plastic and nothing to indicate it is a chipped key.
With the Banks Power package,would it have come with a chip that is replaced in the computer?
If it is an issue to do with missing chipped key,is there a workaround?
Thanks for the help Dmax Maverick,computer issues are my kryptonite

DmaxMaverick

02-22-2022, 13:50

Early "chipped" keys had visible/physical chips, while the later ones are hidden (RFID, and still are). I don't know what years or models it applied or changed. Many of them had paired lock cylinders, that will only decode if the correct (cut) key is used, preventing "hotwiring", or a bypassed key cylinder. Again, I don't know what years/models applied, but it sounds like your 1998 is the latter.

The Banks power package, if electronic, can certainly be a player. I'd start by removing it, and see where that gets you. 1998 models won't have a "chip", being OBD II. It may be reprogrammed, which should preempt the security. Look for a Banks plug-in module. If it has one, remove it, as it may be interfering with the ignition cycle. I don't recall how Banks added power, outside of upgraded turbo, intake, exhaust, and/or wastegate, and perhaps injectors. Later model (Duramax) Banks upgrades have inline programming modules. Any time a truck with a power adder has running issues, step-one is removing the device. Very often (especially with Edge modules), that cures the issue. The modules can be restored once the PCM gets itself straightened out (until the next time). If the PCM has been reprogrammed, it will have to be replaced or recalibrated, either with another aftermarket or OEM. However, while the PCM can be an issue with starting and the security protocol, it's almost always the BCM that's the cause (all else being healthy).

Yukon6.2

02-22-2022, 18:48

Ok today i had time to pull the PCM all connections look great,all the wiring looks stock and unmolested.No remote start or aftermarket security or stereo.
Where is the BCM located?
Hooked the ground and positive together once i had reinstalled the PCM.
No change in it's behavior,turn key to on glow plugs cycle,fuel pump cycles engage starter once glow plug light stops,motor fires with a healthy rattle and dies immediately after the fire even if you hold the key in the starter engaged position.
By the looks of the sticker something has been reprogrammed in the PCM.
64536454
Would a PCM from a 96 2wd work to see if there is an issue in it?
I haven't seen anything with Banks on it other than the muffler and the badge on the door,where might a plug in modual be hiding?
Thanks Again

DmaxMaverick

02-22-2022, 20:35

convert2diesel

02-23-2022, 09:37

Could it be as simple as a failed oil pressure switch?

Bill

Yukon6.2

02-23-2022, 10:28

Could it be as simple as a failed oil pressure switch?

Bill
Maybe but the fuel pressure is good throughout the brief start cycle.
My guesstimate is maybe the ignition switch?

Yukon6.2

02-23-2022, 10:33

A different PCM won't work, if the BCM isn't sending the ignition signal. That PCM has been reprogrammed. You can try another PCM. If it works, then it's likely the original (in your hand) has failed, or the reprogram is corrupt. I'd contact the supplier on the label and find out what you have. They may offer to reprogram it, or reprogram another, if it's corrupt.

The BCM is located inside, on the firewall, near the column. It should have 3 different colored connectors.

Thanks again
Have you ever seen the supplier that is on the decal? I am wondering if they maybe did programing for Banks?
I will try and find some info on them.Plus check out the BCM
In your response you mention a different PCM wouldn't work.Then to try a different PCM.Did you mean BCM instead for one of them?
Thomas

Robyn

02-23-2022, 10:43

DmaxMaverick

02-23-2022, 11:14

....In your response you mention a different PCM wouldn't work.Then to try a different PCM.Did you mean BCM instead for one of them?
Thomas

A different PCM wouldn't work, IF the BCM isn't sending the ignition signal. If the BCM is failed, or is failing to send the signal, for whatever reason, it won't matter which PCM you are using.

Have you ever seen the supplier that is on the decal? I am wondering if they maybe did programing for Banks?
I will try and find some info on them.Plus check out the BCM

I'm not familiar. If Banks is selling it, especially as an upgrade kit, their name is on it, at least in part.

Definitely check out the BCM.

DmaxMaverick

02-23-2022, 11:23

Trace out the power feed to the PMD and make sure you are getting 12 V or more to the PMD
A failed ignition switch could cause the issue....but holding the key in the crank position should keep it running......

Check the power to the fuel shut off solenoid on the IP (Silver round unit on top of the IP)
This bad boy should activate and stay activated unless the power goes off OR THE UNIT IS FAULTY.

Make sure the unit CLICKS when the key is turned to the on position......If not...check power.... Helper needed
These are easy to replace.....DO NOT TRY TO RUN WITHOUT IT....

See what shakes....let us know

Failed ign. sw. is certainly a possibility.

It's not a fuel or PMD problem. It starts, then stalls, with the accompanying security fail code, exactly as the DTC describes. Once started normally, if the signal isn't sent, it immediately stops the fuel injection. Ign. switch, BCM, or PCM. In that order, or a connector or wire in between.

Yukon6.2

02-23-2022, 20:07

Checked out the the fuel shut off solenoid,it works and the power to it is uninterrupted through cranking.
Found the BCM and it was connected good and doesn't look like it's been ever removed.
For grins i called the local GM dealer about an ignition switch $487.00 plus tax 4 weeks away.
Will call Banks in the morning and see if they have any records of their kits from the 6.5 days.
Hoping to talk a local guy into having a look,his shop burnt down a few years ago,at the time he did all the computer stuff around town.

convert2diesel

02-24-2022, 09:08

Yukon6.2

02-24-2022, 09:58

That is why I mentioned the oil pressure switch. During the start cycle, the oil pressure switch circuit is bypassed until it sees oil pressure. If the switch is bad it would produce exactly the symptoms described.

Just a thought and if I'm correct would be a relatively cheap fix.

Bill
Hi Bill
I will give that a try i have a spare one.And cross my fingers.
Called Banks,that was a waste of time.
I might have time to try the oil pressure switch today.
Thanks all.

DmaxMaverick

02-24-2022, 10:37

That is why I mentioned the oil pressure switch. During the start cycle, the oil pressure switch circuit is bypassed until it sees oil pressure. If the switch is bad it would produce exactly the symptoms described.

Just a thought and if I'm correct would be a relatively cheap fix.

Bill

This only applies to OBD-I. The OPS is redundant on OBD-II trucks. The lift pump is controlled/relayed by the PCM. OP says the lift pump is pumping at the start cycle, and has good fuel pressure. Even if it quits after a start, the engine shouldn't stall.

JohnC

02-24-2022, 17:35

Even if it quits after a start, the engine shouldn't stall.

I agree, however, that's exactly what my '93 did when the oil switch failed. Maybe it also needed a new fuel filter...

Robyn

02-25-2022, 05:47

Just a thought.

Do some creative wiring to the Fuel shut off solenoid so you can get a volt meter reading.
Turn on the key...."Observe the reading" Crank the engine....."Observe the reading"

Engine starts....."Observe the reading" DOES THE SHUT OFF SOLENOID SUDDENLY LOSE POWER WHEN THE ENGINE DIES ?????

If power is lost just after the engine starts then this would point the finger at the security system shutting things off.......

If the vehicle does not have a chip key ????? is it possible that the key fob activated door lock system (If equipped) was used to lock the rig and never turned off ??????

The BCM handles all the security features.....If it has either an issue (Fault) or something has been fooled with ????? Radio/sound system swapped.....or other issues that can trip the ANTI THEFT SYSTEM ???????

DmaxMaverick

02-25-2022, 07:32

I agree, however, that's exactly what my '93 did when the oil switch failed. Maybe it also needed a new fuel filter...

Yours was a mechanical OBD-I. This is an OBD-II. The OPS serves a different function.

If the lift pump stops pushing fuel, for any reason, the engine shouldn't stall. That doesn't mean it won't, for other reasons. Your 93 had other issues, such as a fuel filter, air, or weak IP, or it wouldn't have stalled. The problem with this 98 is electronic.

Something changed since it was driven into the garage. If not for the P1626, it could be any of the above suggestions. Until that DTC is resolved, it doesn't matter what herring is pursued. Diagnostics must start with what is known.

JohnC

02-25-2022, 07:47

If the lift pump stops pushing fuel, for any reason, the engine shouldn't stall.

I agree, I'm just saying, sometimes it does stall, for whatever reason.

It's easy enough to tell if the lift pump stops before or after the stall.

DmaxMaverick

02-25-2022, 08:10

It could have a potato in the tailpipe. Nothing works until the P1626 is resolved. The diagnostic cycle is ran at every start, and it resolves or fails within 1 second of a start. The truck ran before being driven into the garage, then later didn't, tossing the P1626. Very few conditions cause that, and when it happens, the PCM only stops sending power to the fuel injection solenoid (not the ESS). Something changed, either someone messed with something, or something failed. It's only that simple. If that is resolved, and it still stalls, or whatever, then chase the other possibilities.

Yukon6.2

02-25-2022, 10:22

Hi All
I really appreciate the help,without it i would be lost.
I did check the OPS,it's fine.
I did check the shut off and it's fine,didn't do a voltage check,just checked power with a test light.
The computer told me there was an issue with the solenoid after i messed with it and checked the codes.cleared them and the two earlier ones came back.
I pulled the plastic cover off the steering column and saw a couple electrical things near the ignition switch that i don't remember seeing before,my assumption is they are part of the chipped key.

Yukon6.2

02-25-2022, 10:36

A history of the truck again without it cluttering up other posts
Truck was abandoned after the PO could not get it to run,sat in my yard for 5 years till PO family bailed on it.
I cleaned out the truck and worked to get it to run,i had to rewire the lift pump and the converter was plugged solid.Removed it and it fired right up and filled my shop with soot and black smoke.Truck started fine didn't run great lot's of smoke.There were no brakes at all so i never took it on a road test to see if it would clear up.At the time my thought was the injectors suffered from the plugged exhaust,maybe had soot forced back in them because of the back pressure.
Fast forward a couple years
I installed a couple batteries and it fired right up,smoked bad still.Very low on power and was surging when the accelerator was pushed down.I had to get it rocking to move out of the depressions the tires made from sitting for a couple years.I drove around the yard lots of smoke no brakes so it was slow and controlled.
Drove it into the shop shut it off. Since then it has not run after the initial start sequence.And each short burst of running makes black diesel smelling smoke.
I only have a key with black plastic,i did find a key fob when i cleaned out the truck which doesn't work.

DmaxMaverick

02-25-2022, 16:34

The code, and behavior, is specific to the Key-On start cycle. Not the fob. A security fail of the fob, intentional of otherwise, clears at one key cycle. I don't believe this is a "chipped" key model. Rather, the lock cylinder, when turned with a key that fits, sends the security signal to the BCM, which sends the ignition signal to the PCM. The PCM, once the engine is started, either allows it to continue to run, or it discontinues PMD ignition pulse if the signal voltage is missing. It then commands the U1000 (means the BCM has an issue), and the P1626 (means the PCM hasn't received the ignition code from the BCM). This suggests the problem is the BCM or upstream to the ign. switch, or the BCM communication circuit in the PCM is open or failed. A corrupt radio security signal is a different DTC, and only applies if a foreign (security) radio is connected, that was not security-unlocked prior to removal from the previous vehicle (if the radio doesn't pair with the BCM, it fails, making stolen, locked radios useless). The system will not fail simply from a missing radio security signal.

The injectors could certainly be fouled, but not due to the plugged cat. The plugged cat may be the result of fouled injectors, however. Exhaust back pressure is minor, compared to combustion pressure.

DmaxMaverick

02-25-2022, 16:38

Something else that just occurred to me....
I take it you haven't tried a relearn of the lock cylinder. It's possible, and maybe more likely, that the BCM has rejected the correct code, due to all the time with power in and out, and perhaps an extended low voltage period. The relearn is a Key-On / Key-Off and timing procedure. I don't have the service manual for your truck, but I'm sure someone on the internet has had a talk about it.

DmaxMaverick

02-25-2022, 17:25

https://itstillruns.com/reset-passlocks-98-chevy-trucks-7820523.html

DmaxMaverick

02-25-2022, 17:50

Here, with a very good description:

https://www.engine-misfire.com/gm-ignition-switch-10-minute-relearn-procedure/

Robyn

02-25-2022, 18:28

DmaxMaverick

02-25-2022, 21:13

I watched a video on bypassing the lock cylinder code.
Pretty simple

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRS6py8pyZs

What Maverick mentioned about the low voltage and power on and off thing.....

Myself I would bypass that bad boy.

A simple trick of adding a resistor of the correct value .

I would do the trick covered in the video....the resistors are CHEAP
The fella that did the video did not mention what wattage rating on the resistor..
I would grab a resistor of the correct ohm value in 1/2 watt rating....

If this gets the rig going the issue should not return....

Either the thing has lost it's brains or the lock cylinder is not giving the correct ohm reading...

Another case of over thinking the plumbing me thinks

Not really. It's not complicated, generally very reliable, and easily corrected. There was a time, before this security measure, GM pickups were the most-stolen vehicles in CA. Simply pry off the column cover and push the rod. Gone in 12 seconds. The electric/electronic measure slowed it down, a LOT. Camry's and Accords were next on the list of the most-stolen. What happened? A few years later, they incorporated the same ignition security system.

Bypassing is fine, but it defeats the security system. Probably OK in most cases. The relearn process is free, and if it works, saves some effort, and it's probably good for another forever. If you bypass it, you still have to do the relearn, and it may or may not fail just as often for the same reason. If the code cylinder has failed, bypassing may be a cheaper option, but it's no more effective than the original. Anything short of removing the process from the PCM code will be essentially the same.

Robyn

02-26-2022, 06:06

Yukon6.2

02-26-2022, 09:51

Thanks a bunch everyone
I will try the relearn today,i should have time in my schedule over the weekend if i don't get to it today.
Holiday here yesterday otherwise i heard you can get chipped keys from the locksmith in the big smoke,couldn't follow up on it because of the day off all business were closed.
Fingers crossed that one of the relearns will fix the issue,or at least narrow it down.
When i ended up with the Burb i never thought i would be worried about anyone stealing it,i had it pegged as a rust bucket from SE Alaska.Seeing it's actually in nice shape maybe someone might want it in civilization.Planning on being in Vancouver with it so the theft deterrent may actually get put to the test there.

DmaxMaverick

02-26-2022, 10:41

I wondered about this.....If the pcm has a glitch and then does not like the resistor value....then the same issue all over again.

Glad you mentioned that Greg.....I thought about this after I posted on the video.

There must be a way to deactivate this system permanently ?????
Up in the great white north....probably not too much issue with a 1998 Burb getting stolen me thinks

The PCM doesn't receive the resistor value, and doesn't monitor the security status. The BCM only authenticates and sends the ignition signal to the PCM. It's simply the routine start-up exchange that relies on a long list of diagnostic successes. The P1626 and U1000 are specific to the BCM, meaning the PCM isn't complaining, other than storing the DTC's. The security protocol can be disabled through a PCM or BCM calibration mod. Writing it out of the PCM could be disastrous, as the security authentication is only one of many diagnostic checks that occur. If you happen to be adjusting the calibration for another reason, and insist you don't want the protocol, it can be written out, although I don't think it would be worth the effort/time/cost to do it for no other reason. It's easier to correct, and real hardware failures or problems are extremely rare.

Robyn

02-26-2022, 12:22

I can understand the need for the security device....I just hate the magic box that can leave ya stranded.....
Out in the sticks a looooooooooooong way from nowhere and the thing gets pissy....bad ju ju..

DmaxMaverick

02-26-2022, 15:12

You mean, like a PMD, spark control, ignition coil, ignition switch, alternator, water pump, fuel filter, PCV, oil pan plug, rubber hose/belt, pothole, idiot drivers, moose, lightening bolt, meteorite, etc. All of which are more likely to strand you, statistically.

Robyn

02-27-2022, 05:02

Yeah....all of those things ;)

Yukon6.2

02-27-2022, 09:11

Everything we drive is a breakdown waiting to happen...
Years ago the chances of continuing home if you had a screw driver and a crescent wrench under your seat were pretty good as we all wrenched on our vehicles to keep them rolling.
So i tried the reset a couple times,10 min plus each time the security light was still on.
I will see what the chances are of getting a replacement chipped key on Monday,if no joy there i will order a replacement tumbler and key.
I did get the release for the 2/3 back seat fixed yesterday,had to take the seat apart to get the cable out.There was a lump of something had made it through the seatbelt hole and lodged at the end of the cable in the seat and infiltrated the cable and seized it.Spent an hour or so getting Honey Doo into it and now moves slick.
Had enough parts to do one rear wheel waiting for a wheel cylinder to finish up.Gravity bled the front brake circuit from the new master cylinder to the calipers.
The list is getting shorter,hopefully the running issue gets striked off with a key or replacement tumbler.
Again thanks for the help.
Thomas

Robyn

02-27-2022, 10:04

IIRC the 98 Burb does not use a chip key

DmaxMaverick

02-27-2022, 11:34

There is no chipped key. The "chip" is inside the cylinder housing. All North American GMC Suburbans, 1997-2002, are Passlock. Passlock keys have no chip. As long as the key turns the lock cylinder, the key isn't the problem.

When you run the relearn, the security lamp must go out before you start the procedure. If it doesn't, or continues to flash, it will not relearn. The 10 minute wait is only a suggestion. Most of them take only 10, some longer. There are progressive stages or modes of lock-out, and get longer with more failed attempts. 3 failed attempts starts the 10 minute lock-out, then it may increase a few minutes. In any case, as long as the security lamp is on or flashing, you cannot start the relearn.

If the security lamp starts out flashing, then stays on solid after about 10 minutes, there is a different procedure I'll have to look up. I've heard of it, but never seen it.

Begin with fully charged (healthy) batteries.
Go through your regular start routine, turn the key to ON, but clear the DTC's before turning the key to crank. Clearing the DTC's isn't supposed to be necessary, but I'd do it anyway because you can, and it's free. When you turn the key to crank, let it try to start, then stall. DO NOT turn the key to off. Leave it in the run position. Go away. Make a sandwich or something. Check on it periodically. When the security lamp goes away, DO NOT turn the key off. Turn it to crank. It should start, and continue running. Let it run for a minute, then turn it off. Wait 5 seconds, start again. Let it run a minute, then shut off. Restart to confirm. If it doesn't start after several correct relearn attempts, or the security lamp never goes out, the BCM is not reading the signal voltage. The 5V circuit is open between the BCM and switch, the lock cylinder housing has failed, or the BCM has failed.

Yukon6.2

02-28-2022, 08:45

Thanks again
Awesome info,I have to work away from the shop today,but as my fuel truck is warming up i will see if the security light will disappear

Yukon6.2

03-01-2022, 10:05

Well laid plans...
Got to my shop yesterday and priorities for the day had changed.
Opened the door and was not met with any warmth.Furnace was down.
Reznor Waste Oil furnace,usually it's an easy fix.
Not this time a high limit switch had fried,and my extra parts had not been shipped due to covid and the supply chain.They are still waiting for some parts.Told them to ship what they had i need it yesterday.Same high limit went last year,first one lasted 22 years.This one 1 year.
Found a workaround,but to risky to leave unattended.
Will try for the relearn today,plus the rest of my brake parts showed up.

Robyn

03-01-2022, 13:57

ALWAYS SOMETHING EH ??

Good luck with the unexpected breakdown ....

Yukon6.2

03-02-2022, 09:42

So after over 2 hours the security light never went out
from what Maverick wrote i will see about getting a new lock cylinder
Shop hasn't burnt down yet without the high limit,i did shut it off for the night.-17C last night.Wasn't supposed to be that cold shop was still above freezing.At least the weather has been very spring like.

DmaxMaverick

03-02-2022, 11:10

The security lamp behavior will determine the series of Passlock. There are 3 or 4 to date. If the Security lamp starts flashing, then changes to solid after about 10 minutes, it's a series I, which should be 1995.5 - 1998. The series II will flash for 10 minutes, then go out. Series II should be 1999 - 2001 or 2002, but these were transition years, so I'm not going to guess what they did with the Suburbans (GM has priors). TRY THIS LINK (https://moduleexperts.com/gm-security-relearn-procedure/). Everything changed in 2003 with complete serial data switches and BCM ignition handling (discussed in another Duramax thread).

If you replace the "switch", you DO NOT replace the lock cylinder. You need the lock cylinder HOUSING. You will use the exact same lock cylinder and keys in the new housing. As long as the key still turns the lock, it isn't broken. The fancy part that does the electronic magic is in the housing. The key has no "chip", it is all in the lock cylinder housing.

Yukon6.2

03-02-2022, 13:00

Thanks again Maverick
Closest dealer is $419.00 3 to 4 weeks.
Going to have to try calling a few in other city's.
Whats the chances of a used one working if i found one?
I went to gm parts direct and the shipping was more than the part.Once converted to canadien it's about the same but their claim is a week delivery.

Yukon6.2

03-02-2022, 13:11

DmaxMaverick

03-02-2022, 14:09

I'd go for used, if you find one. Chances are good that it will work. Due to your cost of getting new, I don't think I'd pay that for what may not be the problem. For that kind of money, I'd try the resistor bypass and forget all the security junk.

According to the parts crossover, there are several GM models that used the same switch from 1997 to 2002. GM part # 26075995 . The Suburban, pickups, Yukon, and Tahoe are specific, only 1998 and 1999. Express/Savana vans are 1997 - 2002. S-10/Astro/Safari/Blazer/Jimmy/Bravada, and Isuzu Hombre are 1997.

I don't know how this translates into Canadian, but it's a starting point if you need it:

https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-GM-26049449-Ignition-Cylinder/dp/B00GU9Z4GA

Robyn

03-03-2022, 06:21

For that sort of coin....I would watch the video and install the appropriate rated resistor...

$400 + is way too steep....Better to spend the $$$ on other parts that need it.....
I really doubt that theft is that big up there in the great north to worry about a 20 plus year old rig getting ripped off.

If you decide to do the resistor route....EBAY...Once you know what ohm value the system is asking for.....
You can get a few of these little devils for a few $$$

https://www.ebay.com/itm/163625170175?hash=item2618d1f4ff:g:rgwAAOSwmQxfh62 h

Come right to your mail box.

I would do the procedure described to get the ohm reading.....then disconnect the batteries over night.

Reconnect and retest.

If the system asks for the same ohm value the second time....order that value...
Install as per the video and install.

Tape things up so nothing can short...

Should work.

This will use a less than $5 investment to get around paying $400
If this does not solve the issue....no big $$$ loss on the problem....

Check out the ebay listing
Scroll through the values in the drop down...choose what you need....Done deal

DmaxMaverick

03-03-2022, 09:09

The resistor value is simple, as long as it returns voltage within the operable range. You can either read the switch value of a similar vehicle and try to match it, or simply use a 1.8K to 2K ohm, and do a relearn. A relearn likely has to be done, in any case, even if you match the stored value. The range is somewhat generous, but out of range is out of range, and it gets rejected. If it works without a relearn, give luck the credit.

Still, the Security Lamp behavior is a bit vague. The BCM times the event, and behaves differently at specific times. The Lamp has 3 modes: On; Off; Flash. If nothing you do ever changes the mode (other than turning the key on and off), it's a good possibility the BCM is corrupt or damaged. It's important to watch the timing, and note what changes. Depending on the model, and model year, the behaviors can be different. Don't give up, just yet, with verifying the current components are actually failed. Most often, your timing and the vehicle's timing doesn't line up, and a failure is assumed when it shouldn't. The result is throwing expensive parts at something that isn't broken. Any time battery power is taken away, or the batteries are significantly discharged or failed (to a point it won't crank well), it can mess with the computers, and they will often dump or corrupt their writable values (such as the Passlock). Usually, a couple successful start cycles will correct this, but it doesn't happen if it won't start and continue to run.

Unfortunately, the process(es) take time, and there's no way to speed it up. If you don't have the time and patience to go through it, you won't fix it. Don't discount dumb luck though, if it suddenly works after a bunch of messing with it. If it inexplicably starts to work normally, you still have an original problem that may (very likely) revisit at the absolute worse time.

1. What mode at key ACC only (not ON, no start attempt)?
2. What mode at key ON (no start attempt)?
3. What mode immediately after start attempt?
4. What mode 10 minutes after each of the above, separately?

Also note, a 10 second period is necessary between any key position change. For example, if a key Off, then key ON is needed, key Off and wait 10 seconds before key On.

Yukon6.2

03-03-2022, 09:31

Thanks a bunch everyone
I went through my back yard and found one truck that had the passlock tumbler housing,unfortunately the key is MIA from the truck.I did get the housing removed and will see about removing the tumbler today.
Living in the sticks have a distinct disadvantage if you need something now.Like resistors,to get any from eBay is a couple weeks if they ship to Canada.
I did find a new part a lot closer and $100 cheaper,at this time i have to toss the money at it in case i need it.Time is starting to slip away and would like to get some driving time on the truck before i head away from home.
If my luck runs like normal...
Whats the options to deal with the BCM? Re flash by a vendor?
Hopefully the demons get exersiced it's a pretty nice Burb and deserves to be making miles on the open road.The main reason i picked it to revive was the clean body,engine compartment,and interior.No aftermarket goodies have been butchered into it.

DmaxMaverick

03-03-2022, 10:53

If you have a compatible lock cylinder housing and no key to remove the lock cylinder, you can bore the cylinder keyway to release the pins. Don't force the cylinder to turn, it will destroy the housing. The pins are very hard, but the cylinder is soft (aluminum or pot metal, usually), so choose a bit slightly larger than the tallest cut in the key. Be careful to not damage anything outside the cylinder, and bore to only the depth of the key. What model and year is the lock cylinder from? If it isn't from a vehicle I listed above, it won't likely work. If they don't physically fit, they are also wrong, internally.

BCM repair depends on the cause of failure. They can often be recalibrated, but it requires someone (dealer, tech, etc.) with the equipment and a calibration image matched to your VIN. Other than that, it will require the purchase of another BCM, and the calibration done by the same. Another TDP member just went through a replacement with a vendor that sent one, pre-programmed to the VIN. I'll get that info to you, if needed.

You don't have to order resistors. Any electronics store should have a selection of them. You can also cannibalize them from other devices. Any expired electronic device (TV, radio, VCR) will have an assortment on the PCB, and likely several that will work. If you can't read the coding on them, a little time with a VOM will gitter done.

Robyn

03-04-2022, 06:14

I figured that having a Radio Shack or similar shop close by was likely not in the cards ..

A few days in the mail is no biggy ...and you can get the exact value needed.

JohnC

03-04-2022, 08:12

Are there still Radio Shack stores?

Yukon6.2

03-04-2022, 09:23

Yukon6.2

03-04-2022, 09:40

No Radio Shacks up here anymore.
The housing had the same part number,came out of a 99 c1500,i did check a few other trucks in the range that Maverick sent and the third truck i tried had the cylinder housing with wires.
Just got a call that confirms my day is used up.Meet with my bookkeeper for month end,and year end at 11 then a car recovery,lady passed out while driving about 30 miles from here,then meeting at 5 for Canadian Rangers,a voluntary reserve force of the Army.I get my new gun and ammo today,since we formed this group 35 years ago they have been promising us new guns.We were issued 303's and 200 rounds of ammo a year. I get to keep my 303 as a personal gun,yea.
I wonder if Putin accelerated the procedure.We were supposed to get "trained" on the new Rugar 308 stainless guns.Now they are forgoing the training,Hmmm.

DmaxMaverick

03-04-2022, 10:33

DmaxMaverick

03-04-2022, 10:40

Update...
No joy yet.
I was able to get the tumbler out with and old key and a pick.Watched a YouTube and got it out.
Installed the housing and it resulted in getting the same results.
I didn't have time to remove the BCM to see if there was anything obvious wrong.When i did look at it it looked untouched from the factory.
What are the chances that two housings from different vehicles would have the same issue.Slim to none...
Not much time today to play with it.
I am going to assume i will be looking at BCM options.
Thanks Again for all the help,i am learning about the trucks systems so it's not all wasted time.My 98 K3500 wrecker was an electrical nightmare with all the wiring that had been butchered in from it years of being a wrecker,plus all the extra wrecker stuff.It always had electrical issues so i converted it to mechanical injection.
This Burb's wiring is untouched so once the issue is found i am confident it will be a reliable rig.PMD issues aside they are easily dealt with.

Yeah, not much chance 2 ign. sets have the same issue. Another TDP member just went through something similar with a 2007. Parked it, came back later, dead. It was the BCM. Simple repair, and not too costly. What was costly was the diagnostic time getting to that point, and getting the part.

If you have another similar vehicle with a compatible BCM, I'd suggest trying it. Easier yet, if it's the same vehicle the ign. set was sourced (no relearn junk).

joed

03-04-2022, 15:34

Been following this thread - sorry you are having this issue. I don't think this era of trucks have a separate BCM. I believe the passlock is handled by PCM. I have tuning software purchased years ago from Wester's Garage (they are/were in Canada). I remember passlock being a switch you can turn on/off in the software for reflashing the PCM. I don't remember trying to turn it off on the 98 and 99 trucks had, so I can't say for sure if a used PCM from a non passlock truck would work. If I still had those trucks, I would try a reflash with it turned off. If Wester's is still in business, you might contact them. Kennedy Diesel might know as well- I think he uses(d) Wester's software too.

DmaxMaverick

03-04-2022, 17:55

It has a separate, physical, BCM.

JohnC

03-04-2022, 19:21

I've got an Enfield .303 that I understand my FIL brought back from WW II. Not sure how as he served in the Pacific...

(This is the third thread I've gone completely off topic on this week...)

Yukon6.2

03-04-2022, 23:37

303? As in, .303 British? Wow. That's 2 turns of centuries gone by. Are any sidearms an option? Considering it's Canada, they'd probably be cap/ball dueling pistols. At least our CMP (Civil Marksmanship Program) is issuing (offering for purchase) only 115 year old guns/ammo. Now, if your .303 was a Lewis, I'd be impressed. Turret-mount that sucker on your Sopwith Camel!

Here is a picture of My new gun gifted to me by the Government of Canada,i have been using it 30 years on snow machines at -40 ect. Always sprayed it liberally with silicon spray and kept the muzzle taped.Won a couple shooting awards with it.6463

Yukon6.2

03-04-2022, 23:42

Here is the new Rugar 308 kit Cost supposedly $4800.00
I don't think i will live long enough to get one to call my own..646464656466

Yukon6.2

03-04-2022, 23:48

Anyhow back to the Burb
I pulled what i assumed was the BCM out of the Burb 6467 then went to pull the one out of the pickup the housing came out of.It didn't have one.
I then Goggled the numbers which come up as a tcase module.Which makes sence the pickup didn't have one as it's two wheel drive.
I looked around under the dash of the Burb and didn't see any other module type things.
Is what i pulled the BCM?

Robyn

03-05-2022, 06:35

Yukon6.2

03-05-2022, 09:36

Thanks Robyn
Off on another treasure hunt.Will report back.
I should have time for it today,maybe come back with some news.
Thomas

Robyn

03-06-2022, 06:24

The rig you scarfed the switch housing from should have the module.....Maybe it is a good one.....:D

DmaxMaverick

03-06-2022, 08:09

I did some snooping.

Seems we have been chasing the wind on this one.
The GMT 400 trucks had a BCM in 1999 and 2000

The 98 has a "Theft deterrent module" This is located behind the glove box near the passenger air bag. (Passlock module)
The box can be green or black

Yank the glove box out and see whatcha can scope out

Here is one

A couple options

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj224Wnj6_2AhVKIEQIHf20BeUQFnoECBoQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpro-rebuild.com%2Findex.php%2Fpasslock%2F&usg=AOvVaw2ujDTgCGv-w6Ydk3L9A_Nv

https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwiyyuP-iq_2AhUcGK0GHYQFBGAYABAEGgJwdg&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAASEuRoRCUkoj6hSRVG-NvZqdxL2A&sig=AOD64_2fbiCJ12svkxZR6GDxdLRaS2jwsA&ctype=5&q=&ved=2ahUKEwjY1dj-iq_2AhVUD0QIHSM_CmMQ9aACegQIARA-&adurl=

(https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwiyyuP-iq_2AhUcGK0GHYQFBGAYABAEGgJwdg&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAASEuRoRCUkoj6hSRVG-NvZqdxL2A&sig=AOD64_2fbiCJ12svkxZR6GDxdLRaS2jwsA&ctype=5&q=&ved=2ahUKEwjY1dj-iq_2AhVUD0QIHSM_CmMQ9aACegQIARA-&adurl=)

1998-2001 were transition model years, and the SUV's seem to be the bastards. The Escalade XL (Suburban) was introduced, supposedly, in 1999, but I have a friend with a 1998, and not the only one I've seen. We replaced his BCM years ago (failed for another reason). I recall OP confirmed the BCM was there. If it has Auto 4x4, that module is likely the transfer case control. At any rate, substitute TDM for BCM. They're the same, as it applies to this problem. The difference as Robyn pointed out is the location, behind the passenger airbag. If you have another TDM, and the part numbers match, you can simply swap it out. If the part numbers are different, it's hit/miss it will work, but worth a try. There is, supposedly, a 1/10 chance it will work without a relearn, but a relearn procedure is required otherwise, so expect the same start/fail it's doing now until relearned. However, the Security Lamp behavior should be different, if the problem is the TDM.

Yukon6.2

03-06-2022, 09:09

Hi All
The saga continues.
I did find the modual that was referenced as the passlock unit in a couple videos including the one Robyn referenced.
It lives right under the CD player or storage spot to the right of the power port/ash tray.you can just see it from under the dash.I exchanged it with the one from the pickup that the housing came from.
Nothing changed,tried a Utube trick to "permanently remove the system and that didn't work i suspect it may have been because of the low batteries at the time.
The video shows hooking a wire to the purple wire going to the modual and grounding it out as you crank.The truck should start and while running disconcerting the modual is supposed to disable it for good.
One of the new batteries had a broken top so i sent it back,replacement will be here today.Maybe with fresh batteries something will work out.
The security light never changed stays on continuously still.

Robyn

03-06-2022, 09:38

ARRRRRRRGH
I was hoping for a nice quick fix....

DmaxMaverick

03-06-2022, 13:23

If it continues after getting full power to everything, it has to be a harness/connector issue. Something isn't connecting to something else. I'm sure you've checked ALL the fuses for the fourteenth time. Fifteenth time is a charm.

Robyn

03-06-2022, 18:09

A SNOW MOUSE ????? A rodent rearranging the wire insulation maybe ???

Yukon6.2

03-07-2022, 09:44

I will install the new batteries and try the relearns again,as well as the 15th check of fuses.
I striped the interior out of the truck and surprisingly never saw any rodent turds or nests,just the signs of a mess made by a human.
I have been hoping for an easy fix,still hopeful.The truck is in such original shape,same as the wiring.So far all i have seen that isn't stock is wires for the driving lights.There are holes under the knee panel that look like a trailer brake control may have been installed.Plus the one wire i bared of for the Utube solution.
The wires and a the electrical ignition switch look good,but maybe there is a broken wire because of the tilt function.

DmaxMaverick

03-07-2022, 10:09

You need a pin-out of the TDM, ignition lock cylinder, and PCM. Disconnect the TDM and check resistance on the ignition security 5V reference and signal return pins (this goes to and from the lock cylinder). This should vary with key On and Off (note the values for future reference). If they check out (reconnect the TDM), key On, then check for the 5V reference at the lock cylinder sensor connector. That will eliminate the switch and TDM communication. If it checks out, check continuity of the security serial data pins between the TDM and PCM connectors (both disconnected).

DmaxMaverick

03-07-2022, 10:36

Have you tried another PCM yet? I'm still skeptical of the aftermarket programming. I did some research of the label on yours. Either the company discontinued their online presence, never had one, or just aren't talking about it. The company is still in business in Temecula, CA, but doing other performance automotive stuff.

Yukon6.2

03-07-2022, 20:00

Some forward success today.
I installed the new batteries tickled them with the charger to make sure they were topped up.No difference.
Checked all the fuses again with a test light,there were 6 without power in the inside box.Decided to pull the fuses in the under hood box They all tested fine on top,and found one with a bad spade that had signs of arcing it was different looking than the rest not see through.
Changed it the rest looked fine.4 of the inside fuses had power again,the two without are PRNDL and Illum
Still didn't start, checked codes and had a new one P1631 password incorrect so i changed the BCM and tried a start again,left the key on and when i came back the light was off.So i did the relearn a couple times and it still wouldn't start but it sounded different and the light was flashing.
So i disconnected the batteries and tried another one of Mavericks suggestions of a different PCM now that the Security light seemed to have a different attitude.
Hooked up the batteries and hit the switch,no glow plug light so i cranked it and it started, Yea.
Running not bad and way less smoke then when i drove it in.
So when i got the brake parts they had to order in one rear drum, in between different attempts to get it to run and the rest of my life i finished the brakes last week and the drum showed up, opened the box and there was a rotor for a dually in it.
So it's running the replacement drum is in so within a day or so i should be able to drive it.
Back to the ECM
it is from an EGR truck 2wd and is tossing codes,not sure if they will be an issue, they were
P1655 Purge ,EGR,or shift solenoid
P0266 cylinder 2 balance fault
P0269 Cylinder 3 balance fault
P0405 EGR sensor A signal
P1653 See Part 3 of reference manual
I am thinking that this PCM isn't the long term solution.
My initial thought is to call Kennedy Diesel and see about getting an PCM programed for the truck plus whatever he can do to make it better.
Or try and find a used one that is for a non EGR auto. I have a non EGR truck with a 5 speed which might be a good PCM but it might not be good either,it was converted to mechanical injection.
The SES light is on when it's running,the glowplugs arn't cycling and the security light is flashing,but it starts and runs.I did notice the sensor in the drivers head was broken and disconnected,which might be in play now with a stockish PCM
Light at the end of the tunnel

DmaxMaverick

03-07-2022, 21:08

The L56 PCM is a fine temporary solution for troubleshooting, but I wouldn't suggest running it any more than necessary. I think EGR fueling and timing is different, which may be damaging over the long run w/o EGR. Kennedy is an excellent idea. You can get what you want, and not mess around with all the junk you don't, including Passlock if you wish (may not be a bad idea at this point, making all these interlocking delicate pieces irrelevant), and a little added glow time, considering where you live.

More Power

03-08-2022, 11:33

I went through all this security stuff with Lil Red back in 2004 when I installed a 2001 Duramax/wiring harnesses/and electronic modules but kept the original 1989 steering column. I bought a salvage 2001 ignition lock assembly to source the security parts (to see how it worked), then simply wired a resistor into the security system - like what the newer ign lock assy provided. Once completing the learn procedure, it all worked fine. However, when I wanted to upgrade the ECM's programming, Kennedy helped me with a 2002 ECM - one that could be programmed to include the power tuning I was looking for. A side benefit was that the ign lock security could be written out of the code...

Yukon6.2

03-09-2022, 09:37

I called John yesterday and talked briefly.Then i boxed up the PCM and sent it to his shop.
It will be a few weeks turnaround.I will continue to search for a usable one around local,but the odds are slim so best case senerio i find one to get some miles on the truck.Worst case i have to wait till it gets back.
I will be able to drive it on the one i have to make sure everything else is ready.
Thank you all who helped with info you found for me,experience you have had with similar problems.
Thinking of the places i plan on going i am glad i have a better understanding of the electronics of this rig.
This Burb will not be a forever truck of mine,but i am sure it will be in the fleet for a few years if it behaves it's self.
I have long term plans of a straight body Burb with a 12 valve,long travel air ride.
I have been collecting a few 12 valves to repurpose.
Got to keep a line of projects ahead of myself.

Robyn

03-09-2022, 10:56

Good deal.

John should be able to fix you up just fine.....

Keep us in the loop

Yukon6.2

03-13-2022, 09:01

I am slowly putting the Burb back together
At the moment it looks like customs agents were looking for a stash.
Brakes are done and bled
Cleaning up things like attaching the brace for the front of the starter,and replacing the mudflap
Both rear doors windows didn't move,so i have them apart to fix.One doesn't move with external power,the wires were all good,going to remove the regulator today and see if i can take it apart. I fixed a motor on my 03 front door regulator a few years ago.The shaft from the motor had rusted and was providing enough drag to trip the breaker.Took it apart sanded the shaft and added grease,still working after 5-6 years.
I don't expect to see the PCM back from Kennedy Diesel till April sometime.Half assed looking for a non EGR brain to have use for a while.
I have a big cardboard list like Roadkill,every time i see an issue or think of one i add it to the list.It should be a decent truck by the time i am done.Hopefully it returns the kindness with years of service.

DmaxMaverick

03-13-2022, 09:57

If you don't find a non-EGR PCM, locate the EGR solenoid wire in the harness (or maybe an orphan connector near the firewall), and install a resistor between the poles. Someone with an EGR solenoid will have to provide the resistance value. If you have a repair manual for any compatible year models, the diagnostic chart for the EGR system should provide it. Or, locate an EGR or similar solenoid and connect it. Either should keep the PCM happy, at least for that.

Yukon6.2

03-14-2022, 09:00

Thanks again Maverick
I'll bet there is an orphan connector,after i pulled the carpet i saw two empty bulb sockets laying under the drivers side carpet.I am sure they are for transfer case shifter lights.
Got both rear doors apart,motors out both beyond repair.These defiantly show the signs of living in SE Alaska.Looked around to see if i had a donor that had the same motors,but they all had different part numbers.Ordered a couple online for the same price as one in Whitehorse.Delivery should be before the ECM comes back,some extra tape should hold the windows up for any test drives i do before the ECM returns.64706469
There should be a drain hole in the motor housing, obviously they aren't sealed well against water intrusion.Wires all tested fine.

Yukon6.2

03-18-2022, 08:50

Short update
Heard from Kennedy Diesel yesterday and the ECM is on it's way back.
It got to the shop quite a bit faster than the postal quote said,i am happy to know it's on it's way back.

Robyn

03-18-2022, 09:23

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet....;)

Yukon6.2

03-22-2022, 09:13

Window motors arrived yesterday and the rear doors are back together with functioning windows.
Switching the trailer plug to a 7 pin RV style instead of the 7 pin Semi style.Does the 98 model have a connector for a trailer brake controller?
Snowing and blowing today,i may start the reassembly of the interior.It sure has been nice to work on the inside without seats,like working in a ballroom man there is a lot of real estate when the interior is gone.

arveetek

03-22-2022, 12:26

Switching the trailer plug to a 7 pin RV style instead of the 7 pin Semi style. Does the 98 model have a connector for a trailer brake controller?

No, GM did not start using a pre-wired brake control harness until 2003. However, GM typically ran a blue and orange wire from the front to the back to make it somewhat easier to wire up. The orange wire is for the 12V + charge line, and you will also need to tap into a brake light circuit to activate the controller when pressing on the brake pedal.

Casey

More Power

03-22-2022, 14:38

Here's a TDP article published in 2001 about installing an electronic brake controller in the new trucks. Might be something here that'll help. I dug this out recently to help me install a brake controller in Lil Red.

https://www.thedieselpage.com/reviews/brakecontrol.htm

DmaxMaverick

03-22-2022, 15:57

The integrated trailer brake harness (only -no controller) began with GMT-800 trucks (1999+). Trucks that were delivered with the factory trailering package came with the brake harness (plugs into the junction on the inside firewall, with long leads), and the trailer 12V charging fuse.

More Power

03-24-2022, 09:35

DmaxMaverick

03-24-2022, 10:22

arveetek

03-24-2022, 12:04

https://www.draw-tite.com/product/3015-s_trailer-brake-control-harness

Though there is no truck model year mentioned, it says it's for: Trailer Brake Controller Harness, Compatible with Cadillac Escalade : Chevrolet Avalanche, Silverado, Suburban, Tahoe : GMC Sierra, Yukon, Yukon Denali, Yukon XL : Hummer H1

Amazon has it: https://www.amazon.com/Tekonsha-3015-S-Control-Wiring-Adapter/dp/B00QRWQV08

If you click on the application tab on the first link, you'll see that it fits 2003-2006 (and some old body style 2007) models.

Late model 1999 through 2002 used a similar harness. In 2007, GM ditched the plug-in harness altogether, and simply has 4 blunt wires hanging underneath the steering column to connect to the brake controller (using butt connectors).

In 2014, GM went back to another style of plug-in harness (for models that do not have the factory, integrated brake controller), and then switched to a different plug-in harness in 2019.

I currently have over 25 different brake control harnesses in stock at my RV dealership for various brands of vehicles. A large part of my job is matching brake controller harnesses to vehicles. It's sometimes infuriating at how auto manufacturers constantly change the location and style of plugs on their vehicles. I have to constantly research what options we have to make sure we don't get stuck and unable to install a brake controller in a customer's vehicle.

Casey

Yukon6.2

03-27-2022, 00:24

Highs and lows of a couple days
Got the PCM back on Thursday,so i started the reinstall of the interior.Got the carpet and drivers seat in before i installed the PCM i tried to start it.Had to do a 30 min relearn on it on Friday before everyone was playing nice.Seemed to be running ok.Finished off installing the interior.Final bleed of the brakes installed the tires and drove it out of the shop this afternoon.Let it idle for a while looking for any leaks ect.Was still smoking a bit.
Got on the road and lots of black smoke,no power to speak of.Went to head up a hill to warm it up but it died so i coasted to a stop.Restarted and turned around back to the shop running worse surging ect.No codes so i figured change the PMD which i did and it ran worse on the road and died again.Got restarted back to the shop it died at the shop.
Removed the extension harness and tried another PMD on a intake mount plugged into the original plug ran briefly with lots of smoke and died.Changed the PCM to the other one it ran on and same thing ran crappy and died,would not restart.Tried the other two PMD's on the intake and still would not start.
Pushed it back in the shop and called it a day.
Seems that the common issue is massive over-fueling,before it showed up at my place resulting in a totally plugged cat which killed its ability to run. I removed the cat but could not drive it because of no brakes.It was smoking which i figured might clear up with a run at highway speed and temp.Fast forward to this winter when i started it to get in the shop and it was smoking black smoke with no power.Same as today.
I don't think it is the PMD or PCM. I may have to plumb in a fuel pressure gauge to rule out fuel issue in the no start again.
But what could cause the massive over fueling?Could the injection pump have a failure that would cause the over fueling and no start condition?
It was a let down,The Burb is clean has brakes and was looking forward to getting some miles on it.
It's a head scratcher
Thanks Everyone for the help so far,hopefully someone has a idea on next steps.

DmaxMaverick

03-27-2022, 08:03

There is no "overfueling" a Diesel that's otherwise healthy. Overfueling is a runaway. Black smoke only means there's more fuel than the available air during hot combustion (white smoke on a cold engine). Smoke and no power, you either have a significant air restriction, or too little or no boost. Considering it stalls when this happens, it's probably not a boost issue, nor PCM or PMD (especially since the several you tried all end the same). A restricted/low fuel supply certainly won't "overfuel", normally just falling flat on power with little/no turbo response, but no black smoke. A failed turbo or wastegate (system) can cause low power and black smoke while accelerating, but won't cause stalling or effect idle. What codes do you get after a stalling episode? This sounds, simply, like an IP mechanical failure, but the DTC's may indicate what has actually failed inside the pump. The engine wasn't ran for a very long time, so any water or alcohol that may have been in the fuel would likely damage the pump internals over time, or the pump was worn out before you began. The fuel solenoid (internal) can get sticky, but the PCM will complain if it doesn't respond correctly. The same applies to the optical reader. That leaves mechanical wear/damage, or fuel contamination. Did you drain/flush the tank? A high content of gasoline or otherwise contaminated fuel can cause similar issues, and/or cause IP failure over time.

Yukon6.2

03-27-2022, 10:34

I did wire the waste gate closed for a test and it made no difference.
The fuel i got when i was testing the pump and pressure was clean diesel with additives.I know the filter was changed last time i messed with it,true was a couple years ago.I also know that the PO did add additives as he was having issues in the winter coming from warmish SE Alaska.A meltdown for gelled fuel was added.
There were no codes after the first road drive,so i assumed PMD because of it.The surging pointed to that as well.
The only codes i did get were while using the 2wd PCM,nothing while the new flashed PCM was in use.
Before i pushed it in the shop i tried the re flashed PCM and had no start,at that point i gave up and called my GF to steer it as it got pushed.
My guess is it will start up like before when i try it today.
The black smoke when i took it on the road and floored it was almost like the clouds at a diesel pull event.You could not see through it in the mirror.No power just black smoke

DmaxMaverick

03-27-2022, 12:23

JohnC

03-27-2022, 14:01

Are you sure there isn't a squirrel's nest in the intake manifold?

You didn't stuff a rag in the intake while working on something else, did you?

Robyn

03-27-2022, 14:17

The critter nest in the fender passage up to the front can cause sufficient restriction to show back smoke.

Yank the complete air piping ...including the filter box off the truck.

Be sure the turbo is spinning freely......

Make sure there is nothing loose in the engine bay....A RAG OR ????

Leave the piping off and take the truck for a run.....see what shakes....

Did you replace the Cat...or just stick in a pipe ????

JohnC

03-27-2022, 17:38

Did you replace the Cat...or just stick in a pipe ????
Good point! If you can't out with the bad air, you can't in with the good air...

Robyn

03-28-2022, 05:04

I went back and reread several posts.

I see that you removed the Cat.....

With the huge clouds of black smoke ?????? A shortage of air ......Turbo stuck or other intake issue that is hampering the engines ability to use all the fuel...hence the black smoke.

Air is a constant on a diesel.......unless something is plugged or otherwise not working.

I have a gut feeling that the turbo may be stuck.....

Back when I worked on our 1994 Suburban 6.5 ...it lost a head gasket and I yanked the engine to rebuild it.

When reassembling the beast the turbo was stuck tighter than a Bulls Azz in fly time.

I took the turbo apart and completely cleaned it out.....reassembled it and all was great...

Your rig having sat for some time with the other issues may well have seen the carbon deposits in the turbine (Hot side) lock up the wheel.

IF this be the case, the engine will not get near enough air to burn all the fuel that is being fed to the engine...

The stalling...?????? Possibly due to the engine CHOKING on its own exhaust.......

If the IP was simply "Over fueling" the beast would go like a scalded cat.........The fact that the rig is a slug......Air ...or lack of has got to be the issue....

Yukon6.2

03-28-2022, 09:47

Multiple PMD's and IP's, good fuel supply, no codes of consequence. ---->Worn out or damaged IP.

Meltdown contains mineral spirits and alcohol, according to their SDS. This is not normally a problem, but either of them left stagnant in the pump for years will likely kill it. The injectors could be questionable, as well.

My theory on the truck is this is an issue that has followed it for a while,i am guessing the PO got it cheap on Craig Island because it ad a running issue.The PO was a slob,the Burb was a mess inside but not as gross as i was expecting.It has mismatched wheels.I think he got it cheap got it to run and loaded his possessions in and on it loaded it on the ferry and tried to drive it to Anchorage.My guess is the island has maybe 20 miles of road.I think it was parked for drivability issues tires and wheels put on another truck.
The injection pump has the look of never being removed.

Yukon6.2

03-28-2022, 10:01

Made a post and it disappeared...
Got it to run on the 2WD PCM
had to coax it alive feathering the pedal till it fired then mashed to the floor to get it to run.Ran long enough to get it outside and drive around my yard a couple times before it died.Lots of smoke no real power still.Pulled these codes
P1216 Fuel Sol responce
P0251 Injection pump 'A' rotor
P0266 Cylinder 2 Balance
P0269 Cylinder 3 Balance
P0405 EGR
P1653
Tried changing the PCM after it wouldn't start,ended up pushing it back inside.
Fun stuff,glad its mine .Nobody crying about time and money.
I am getting a few bucks tied up in it,but it is still a decent Burb so time and money isn't wasted.
Thanks again to everyone tossing their ideas into the ring.
Hopefully the codes point to the next thing to try.

Yukon6.2

03-28-2022, 10:03

A couple times the thought crossed my mind that the Burb is Possessed...

arveetek

03-28-2022, 12:24

When I had a DS4 injection pump fail on my Tahoe several years ago, it ran terrible, could hardly move out of its own way, and smoked like an old freight train. I think it was injecting fuel at the wrong time, so it couldn't burn properly. A new pump fixed me right up.

Casey

Yukon6.2

03-28-2022, 13:06

DmaxMaverick

03-28-2022, 13:54

That sounds like this Burb
What made you condemn the pump and change it?Codes or symptoms?
Thomas

You can condemn the pump with codes and/or symptoms. You have both. Still, if you haven't already, confirm the intake plumbing is unobstructed. Although, an obstructed intake won't cause IP codes.

More Power

03-28-2022, 15:06

Had it been run with home brew bio?

Yukon6.2

03-28-2022, 22:46

To my knowledge no home brew bio
Looks like i have direction for the next project
I have a low mileage pump so it will get a new home.
My year end for the business is March 31 so i doubt i will get to it before then.
But i may as well read up on the timing procedure and any other tips.
Updates to come

DmaxMaverick

03-29-2022, 06:48

The "timing procedure", at least initially, is to only put the new pump exactly where the old pump was. It's easier when the pumps have a reference mark, but some don't. Take a good pic of the timing cover and pump flange before you loosen anything. If no factory reference mark, carefully measure/note the location of the pump and install the new pump the same, then scribe a mark the same as the old pump (future reference). The PCM will adjust timing as necessary, according to the PCM calibration. The only requirement is the pump be installed within a ballpark range. If the pump is located too retarded or too advanced, the PCM will tell you. If so, just move the pump a little at a time to get it back into a happy range. You can optimize the timing later, if you wish, but it isn't necessary to run out the bugs.

arveetek

03-30-2022, 11:42

That sounds like this Burb
What made you condemn the pump and change it?Codes or symptoms?
Thomas

It was running fine one day and then the next it was blowing smoke and running like crap. I had just sorted out a fuel supply issue and the injection pump had been repeatedly starved of fuel and causing the engine to stall multiple times. I believe it finally took the pump out.

Also, as DmaxMaverick said above, just line up the pump as best as you can, and it will run fine. I just rebuilt my engine and swapped the IP over from the original engine, and have not done any timing checks. It's running great. I still want to check the TDC offset when I get a chance, but otherwise it's running great.

Casey

Robyn

03-31-2022, 05:33

Just an FYI

I have been into several 6.5 engines with the DS4 IP
As mentioned.....JUST GET THE PUMP LINED UP CLOSE.

The physical location of the pump is "NOT super critical" the internal parts of the IP that adjust the timing are controlled via the "Stepper motor" which is controlled by the Computer.

AS long as the stepper motor can adjust the timing to the specs that are stored in the computer memory things are golden.

IF THE IP IS TOO FAR EITHER WAY.... the stepper will not be able to achieve the desired timing and the computer will complain (SES LAMP WILL COME ON)

Before you remove the IP DO THIS.....

Make a scribe mark on the timing case top flange just ahead of the IP..NICE STRAIGHT SHARP LINE.

NOW THE FUN PART.

Grab a piece of STIFF thin cardboard to make a little JIG/FIXTURE

Grab some snips/scissors and cut out a piece that will just slip in along the sides of the case of the IP . A U SHAPE THAT CAN JUST SLIDE DOWN AROUND THE IP

Once this is done....trim the "Jig" so you can just see your scribe mark you made on the timing case.

With the cardboard jig in place....make a pencil mark on the cardboard that aligns with the scribe mark on the timing cover.

Swap the IP....Get it in place and the nuts just finger snug....Lay your cardboard fixture in place and align the marks. Tighten the nuts on the IP.....Replace the fuel injector lines.....

Remove the glow plugs .......Spin the engine with the starter until you have fuel mist coming from the glow plug holes......

Replace the glow plugs......Ready to go.

The computer should have zero problems adjusting the timing....

Yukon6.2

03-31-2022, 09:45

I got my fuel deliveries done for the month,year end inventory is today.
But i think i will be able to devote a few hours to the Burb today
Hope to get everything out of the way today and make a timing template,Thanks for the idea Robyn.
I have the pump i pulled from my 98 tow truck that has low milage,the truck wasn't starting at the time so i did the mechanical pump conversion.I do have another pump on the motor that came out of the tow truck due to gasket issues,it was supposedly a newer pump when i got the truck,it was bought off eBay.I take the history with a grain of salt,and consider it a working pump of unknown origin.The other pump has a chain ownership which i know.
It does have the unknown of the tow truck not starting,but the wirering was a mess on that truck.I think i will try and start it before i have everything buttoned up

Yukon6.2

04-04-2022, 09:31

Spent the last couple days evicting Winter from my lot's
When the nights stop getting cold i like to remove as much snow from around my house as possible.My house casts a big shadow,and i like to remove the snow from on top of my septic field.My equipment lot has a good slope but clearing unwanted snow helps dry it up.
Back to the Burb today,i removed the inner fender a couple days ago,the curse struck again what should have been a quick job changed when one of the threaded clips for the bolts broke.Was able to get a die grinder in the fender to cut the remaining part of the clip off.

Robyn

04-04-2022, 14:05

Why are you ripping the inner fender out ????

Yukon6.2

04-05-2022, 09:26

I decided seeing i will be in as far as i am...
The injectors are coming out for pop testing,i have a couple sets of used ones.I will try and get a set that are all popping close to the same numbers.
Pulled the turbo off as well.
Last night i got it striped down,intake off heads taped up,lines off and labeled,cardboard cutout of the injection pump mount made,line scribed,three bolts out of the injector gear successfully extracted.Pulled all the glow plugs.Surprise surprise they all matched and look new.AC Delco's even the glow plug wires are in great shape.It was a loved truck at one time
Questions...
What PSI should the 6.5 injectors be popping at?
What color loctite on the 3 injector gear bolts?
I may be going for a walk around a bone yard,so if i want to consider a Holset 35 turbo what ones should i look for and what else is required?
The outside of the injection pump is ugly,may even be the original.Still is wearing a PMD
A local gal with a cleaning company may get some time to steam the remaining interior parts i didn't scrub.Headliner,door panels, rear side carpeting.
Thanks All

Robyn

04-06-2022, 05:05

Blue loctite on the pump gear bolts
Clean the threads with BRAKLEEN and blow out threads..flush a second time with Brakleen
Wash the bolts with same and blow dry too.....

Pop pressure should be in the 2000 to 2100 range
I have seen them a bit less and a bit more.
Main thing is having them all close to the same and in the range.

On used pumps I have always tried to keep the pressures on the lower end of spec....A bit easier on the IP......

Can't help you on the Turbo.....I have not swapped any over from the GM X series.

Another thing on the injectors is to have a nice CONE shaped spray pattern...NO PEE STREAMS OR DRIBBLES.....Just a nice clean spay and then shut off.

Ahhhh.....It does not hurt a thing to put a bit of NEVER SEAZE on the glow plug threads....

I have seen these !@#$% stuck so tight that they snap off when trying to remove them.

When you get ready to restart...
Leave the plugs out and spin the engine to get fuel mist blowing from the plug holes.

Saves the starter, batteries, Patience......and makes the job waaaaay easier.....A couple of 15 to 30 second spins will get the task handled just fine.....

The engine should start right up and run.....may have a few little air bubbles that will pass and cause a bobble or two....but really makes life much less tedious....

arveetek

04-06-2022, 13:54

I may be going for a walk around a bone yard,so if i want to consider a Holset 35 turbo what ones should i look for and what else is required?

I just put an HX35 on my 6.5L. I would suggest looking for one off a 1994-2007 Ram Cummins. 1994-1998.5 used one version, and 1998.5-2007 uses a slightly different model. Either one will work.

You will need an exhaust downpipe adapter, like this:

https://quadstartuning.com/collections/turbochargers-parts/products/holset-turbo-downpipe-adapter

I also picked up this oil feed adapter:

https://quadstartuning.com/collections/turbochargers-parts/products/holset-turbo-oil-inlet-adapter-v2

The turbo will bolt directly onto the exhaust manifold.

I also installed a Turbomaster waste gate control; I have no idea what application my turbo came from (bought it used through a buddy who knows a guy), but I think it was an industrial application. There were no mounting bosses anywhere for the waste gate controller, so I had to get creative and make my own mounting bracket.

Then you will have to modify the top air hat on the intake; I had to cut about 2" off the intake pipe that connects to the turbo since it was too long.

Then you will have to modify your air filter setup. The stock turbo has a 3" inlet; the HX35 has a 4" inlet. For now, I have ditched the factor air filter setup completely and went with an aftermarket filter utilizing some universal silicone elbows and such. Don't forget you'll need to plumb the CDR hose into the intake somehow.

Here's my current setup:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51708613972_3e99a169b8_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51708600487_8618de68d8_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51708600477_57953f3618_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51709663468_2e520da9a4_b.jpg

I still need to modify the air filter setup so that it is not sucking in hot air from the under the hood.

The sound from this turbo is absolutely amazing! You can hear the whistle at all times above idle. I have the Turbomaster backed all the way off, and boost seems to max out around 15 psi.

An intercooler is next on my list.

Casey

Yukon6.2

04-07-2022, 22:20

Thanks for that info Casey
Turns out i already have a turbo sitting on a 2000 53 block that is complete the block is split 16" down the water jacket.I replaced it in a 1 ton i have.
Got the injectors pulled today and they tested from 1600 to 2100 with 3 in the upper range.
Pulled a set out of a core engine and they were all around 1950 to 2100 except for one at 1500. That one turns out to have a different body number of 972. The rest were all 973.
This is a pretty old tester that has been sitting in a shed for years so the actual pressures are probably different.
I will pick the best 8 and start putting it back together.
Some injectors were barely tight.
I am glad i spent the extra time to test the injectors,hopefully it runs better once it all back together.
Fingers crossed i may be able to get a long day in on it tomorrow.

DmaxMaverick

04-07-2022, 22:37

Getting all the injectors within a narrow range will certainly add to smooth running. 1600 - 2100 PSI is a hot mess. The odd number and lower pressure is probably a 6.5 N/A injector. 1950 - 2100 is OK (within Gm spec), but I like them within 50 PSI or less. 100 PSI would be a set that just gets by, but I'm OCD like that. It sounds like your tester is just fine. It's more important to get the trend right than the actual pressure, which is probably accurate enough, considering the pressures you're seeing.

Robyn

04-08-2022, 05:18

I am with Maverick on this ....
Having the injector pops all very close make a smoooooooooooooth runner.

This also helps keep unwanted cylinder to cylinder timing variations from causing a lot of extra torsional stress on the crankshaft too..

Yukon6.2

04-08-2022, 09:29

My thoughts were to match them to the firing order
Ramp up to the highest then back down to the lowest.

DmaxMaverick

04-08-2022, 12:43

You must be very careful with such detailed combinations. They're known to cause catastrophic events, like slowing Earth's rotation or causing tsunamis.

Robyn

04-08-2022, 16:52

They need to be all the same to maintain the cylinder sequential timing......

JohnC

04-09-2022, 06:30

So, what you want to do is order them from highest to lowest, number them 1 through 8, then, following the firing order, install injector 1,3,5,7,8,6,4,2. That way you minimize the difference between successive cylinders. I think....

Power oscillations will approximate a sine wave.

Do you think we could be overthinking it?

DmaxMaverick

04-09-2022, 08:05

....Power oscillations will approximate a sine wave.

Do you think we could be overthinking it?

Yes, and yes. I thought of the same thing, and considered the possibility of actually creating a harmonic condition with no resolve. I suspect the generous OEM range spec of injector performance has allowed this to happen several times (monkeys + typewriters theory), and may suggest an explanation for some failures that are yet unexplained. Any harmonic condition can be broken by introducing a random. The same argument can be made with the type of dampers available, static rubber or fluid. If a designed harmonic condition exists, a static rubber damper will allow it to continuously repeat, while the random behavior of a fluid damper would certainly break it. Not unlike spinning or rolling eggs on a countertop. Boiled and raw eggs still contain all the same components and mass, but they behave very differently to the same energy applied to them.

I think it's either best to match them within a very tight range, and/or install them randomly. Although, I doubt it really makes much difference, with injector component and test equipment variations. A simple tester only shows what pressure the injector pops, with no consideration for volume, dwell time, or temperature. Spring performance and fuel viscosity can be greatly affected by temperature, so unless we are testing the injectors in the same environment they will be operating, we really have no idea what they are actually doing on a running engine. I never gave it much thought, and perhaps that's for the best. Just do the best we can with what we have, and trust the engineers did their duty.

Yukon6.2

04-09-2022, 09:35

Fuel viscosity...
Yesterday i was thinking about that,the fuel for the test was winter fuel thin and dry.
I ended up with 1950 as the lowest and 2075 as the highest.
i was hopping to finish off the truck last night,but had to go home to eat and start a fire,then my back started to complain about being hunched over the fenders.By the time i was done eating i was fat and happy so the couch won.

DmaxMaverick

04-09-2022, 10:05

Using lower viscosity winter fuel may more accurately (less inaccurately) simulate a running environment. As temperature increases, fuel viscosity decreases, and mechanical tolerances increase. I'm curious to see test results using straight #2, as used in a typical test.

Yukon6.2

04-11-2022, 09:06

It's running and driving...
It still has some quirks.
It threw a couple codes after the first few miles
P0307 cylinder 7 misfire
P1216 fuel solenoid response time to slow
I changed the injector with another tested one
I think the running temp is low,maybe no thermostats which i will check with a temp gun today.The scanner was reading 183F after running for a while.Still getting white smoke that smells of unburnt fuel.Black smoke when you put your foot in it but now the Burb will accelerate when you put your foot in it.
One tool i don't have is any compression testers for a diesel.I am hoping number 7 is ok and will come around with a different injector.I thought about removing the fan as a test to try and get some more heat into it.On the gauge it never got above the big mark between the 160 and 210 so around 180 ish.

Yukon6.2

04-14-2022, 23:07

So the Burb had some chineses thermostats which i replaced with some used Delco ones.It made a difference.The chineses ones would open and start to circulate right away.
If you hold the revs up around 2000 the exhaust pretty much clears up,but it doesn't take long at idle to start smoking again.Un burnt fuel smell.
No codes were tossed, i worked it up a 3 mile hill topping it at around 90mph the scanner reading 193 F so it is running warmer.
Any magic injector cleaner to try?
To me the smoke points to poor injectors,one puffs smoke a bit quicker then the rest.
No massive blow-by,no popping sounds of bad valves.
New Bosh injectors on a Canadien online shop are $80.00 each which doesn't seem too bad.In CAD and free shipping.
Now a tranny question...
When the 3-4 shift happens under power it is a definite hit.I haven't driven one of these trannys so no idea on whats normal.
Thanks for any ideas,suggestions ect.

Robyn

04-15-2022, 04:45

So....No codes at all ?????

That is a good thing.

You pop tested the injectors.....

This test should have eliminated any bad injectors.....This said there can be other issues with the squirts other than the pop pressure.

Does the engine misfire at Idle RPM ???

If an injector is dribbling after its initial firing it will contribute to smoke

An injector that is peeing a sloppy stream will make a smoky exhaust.

Injectors should spray a nice even CONE of fuel mist when they "pop" there shouldn't be a sloppy bunch of droplets ..

Can you isolate the cylinder/s that are causing the issue...

The other issue could be in the IP.....But lets not go there yet...

Did you run a compression test on the engine ????

If you did not....it may be a good idea just to be sure we are not chasing the wind....

My gut says that the nozzles on some of those squirts may be in poor shape.....

Does the engine idle smooth ????
Does the engine start up "Clean" ??? or is there a big skeeter getter cloud when it fires off.

Good compression with good squirts and all 8 glow plugs in good shape should produces a nice clean start with little to no blue smoke from the exhaust pipe.

Since the injectors were used....there is not a good starting point here to work from....Other than replacing the squirts with fresh parts that are known to be in top shape....

Just having the "POP" pressure in the acceptable range is not the entire story.

At the time of injection the cylinder pressure is high......so the actual operation of the injector may be totally different than when they are out on the bench cold.....

Yukon6.2

04-15-2022, 09:00

Yes no codes on the last romp,i drove it pretty hard.
It does idle like it has a miss.
The testing i did eliminated the worst injectors out of 16,two original ones mad it into the pile that got used.Zero history on any of them.I was mainly watching the pop pressures.The spray pattern was not the perfect cone you would want to see,unfortunately.I was hoping the fact the tester was old and has issues might have accounted for poor sprays,i know wishful thinking.
The IP is a low mileage unit,i know the guy who bought it new and installed it on the engine that ended up in my Tow truck.If it had 15K on it that would be lots.
I don't have a compression tester for diesels i may try and round one up over the weekend.
The initial start from cold is smokey ,but seems to start good in the cold.
Gut feeling is the engine is healthy,no excessive blowby decent power when you romp on it,no popping in the intake or exhaust to point at a bad valve.
I hate to spend the $640 on a new set of squirts on a gut feeling.
Thanks Again on the ideas and pointers

Robyn

04-15-2022, 10:25

Do you have a diesel shop close that can check the injectors out ???

Pop pressure and the condition of the actual nozzles are two different things..

Pop can be fine and the nozzles can be crap.....

DmaxMaverick

04-15-2022, 10:52

Sounds like sloppy injectors, at least.

You don't have to buy all new injectors. You have a tester, and you can rebuild them yourself. Nozzles are cheap (a good set should be less than $10/ea, stay with OEM grade, don't be tempted with "40 HP marine" nozzles), and it isn't complicated. You have enough injectors to sort through and select the best parts of them, and build a good set with new nozzles. Measure the shims so you know the range you have available. Springs can be inconsistent, use the shims adjust the pop pressure. Keep the bodies matched, and only mess with the nozzles and internals. Set a target pop pressure/range, then mix/match springs and shims to get them there. Keep notes for each injector, springs and shims, so you can go back and swap them to get the results you want. If you have bad OCD, it can get tedious, but it's worth the time. Or, you can just replace the nozzles in 8 injectors that pop where you want, which is what most commercial rebuilders do, then test them. Spend an afternoon, and save yourself $5-600.

Robyn

04-15-2022, 14:02

What Maverick says makes good sense.....

Clean is the buzz word.....

Do one injector at a time.

Wash well before taking the unit apart...

Wash the internal parts in a separate container of clean solvent.

New nozzles are readily available online.
About $20 each for Bosch parts.

Swap in the new nozzle and replace the spring and shims with what came out....lube the unit with fresh diesel fuel before assembly...... Test....replace in the engine....go to the next one.

A dirty, worn or generally fouled nozzle will create all sorts of hate and discontent...
worth A TRY......

Getting the squirts back to a bit closer to fresh will allow you some time to worry about and sort out the rest of the rigs little issues.

Then if you feel the need....Grab up a bunch of the junkers and send them to a reputable injection rebuild shop and have them make them fresh again...

Yukon6.2

04-16-2022, 23:34

It's going to be more then freshening up the squirts.
Went through my gauge assortment and found one good for 2000#
the needle moved with shop air.
Took an old glowplug and gutted it,welded a pipe nipple to it.
From there with a couple fittings and a lenght of hydrolic hose i had a tester of sorts.
Tested the drivers bank and #7 has an issue
I did the testing after i brought it up to operating temp.
Swapped #5 and #7 injectors just in case but # 7 glowplug stayed washed clean.
And it's making oil.
Cursed i say
Now i have to decide do i push it off to the side and possibly eat the $$ invested not to mention the time, or
take the final plunge and yank the motor out and get a healthy one back in.
A few years ago i almost pulled this motor to use in my tow truck,but the paperwork hadn't cleared on it.Funny.
I have the original motor i took out of my tow truck that had a coolant pressure issue.At the time i had a complete replacement on hand, so it went into storage.

Robyn

04-17-2022, 04:41

Hmmmmm
What sort of pressure are you getting ????

If indeed it's a bad cylinder.....it may not be a total FUBAR.

It is not all that hard to yank that engine out.

Get it on a stand and rip the top end off first. GET A GOOD LOOK AT THE VALVE TRAIN FIRST ON #7 FOR ANOMALIES ...

May be as simple as a bad valve if not....then stuck rings from sitting.....

If the heads are OK.....A good cleaning up and yank the valves one hole at a time ...check the seats and possibly use a little lapping compound to "Touch" them up.

Yank the pan off and pop out #7 piston.....May be stuck rings......I have seen some pretty skunked up six and a half's in my time......

A good power wash all over to clean off the ages of munge.....

A set of STD rings are not that expensive....Fresh head gaskets and bolts......

A pan gasket set....

One thing I would certainly do.....Pop out the soft plugs and the block heater....Replace with FRESH ONES.

These are a bitch to change in the rig....NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE....

Would suck to get things fixed and have a leaking plug a short time down the road...

BRASS PLUGS ARE SWEET.....

With the bottom end open.....A fresh set of rods/main shells would be great..

These are select fit engines.....Look at the shells and see what they are.

.0025" clearance across the board is fine.....Factory select fit were usually a smidge tighter...

Upper and lower shells can be different due to the select fit routine.......

A fresh timing chain....no need to replace sprockets on these (Usually they are fine)

For not that much $$$ you can freshen these engines up nicely....

If it turns out to be a bad head......Be sure the block deck is in good shape......NO EROSION AROUND ANY OF THE FIRE RINGS.....

I WOULD NOT SPEND A DIME ON USED 6.5 HEADS
Clearwater cyl head in Florida sells some pretty darn good after market heads.

I have used a couple sets and they were fine.......

The old iron is just too iffy ....spend a buttload of machine shop time and then get a leaker down the road in a short....

Hey
NO TIME TO TOSS IN THE TOWEL NOW :D

Yukon6.2

04-18-2022, 09:36

Going to remove the beast today
Cleaned up the shop yesterday to get ready for the yank job.
Pulled the intake and valve cover,everything were it should be and moving correctly.
Priced out some parts...
Rings are not cheap right around $700.00 canadien...WTF the rest of the parts don't cost as much as the rings.Bearings,chain,gasket set and plugs are less than $700.00
I will try a call to a machine shop in the big smoke to see what their prices are like.
It's like owning a boat,toss more monies at it...

Robyn

04-18-2022, 12:30

Shop ebay.....nuff said
https://www.ebay.com/itm/151863510886?epid=1338648070&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item235bc54766:g:MtsAAOxygj5SnMeR&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAAA8LVmYwgBtuQTf9zRz3XV7kGqLEpki y2RSXO8Yup6Llrt%2FvXKJapSwgukdSIJVRzP%2B%2F3IqE6Lk mPlK8GSzHbG5YMbseIaRypT%2BdkNOtPHbScjgBqzrlBGH%2FN JAIekKEAUTxSh7qp33MHckb7jcUGY00Q3AUgYoHxjBqZz%2B8z Wxdxl2nQRL7zXofC4xLXqI%2B05fWd749WrSASXlLe4oWR0xPC tRfmLYrM5r2xtWAtqc7UN%2BsWT5TCfYmFhmXBCVMrM1ZdhliJ gPveq3BoG2oUSmjCkiCkg0DhSoc8en7LO8XDWHO5vMnSgnbH%2 BI%2BLKHjPUYQ%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBM5JjD4odg

Free shipping too....

Just make sure your bores are standard.

arveetek

04-18-2022, 12:55

Rings are not cheap right around $700.00 canadien...WTF the rest of the parts don't cost as much as the rings.Bearings,chain,gasket set and plugs are less than $700.00
I will try a call to a machine shop in the big smoke to see what their prices are like.
It's like owning a boat,toss more monies at it...

I found a huge price range on the rings when I was shopping as well. Rock Auto currently has Mahle standard ring sets in stock for $138.79:

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/chevrolet,1997,c3500+pickup,6.5l+v8+diesel+turboch arged,1034615,engine,piston+ring,5640

I was quoted over $700 at my local auto supply. I went with Rock Auto. Not sure what shipping would be to your location.

Casey

Robyn

04-18-2022, 13:56

Uh huh...step right up....Bend over....

Amazing what a little shopping can do.

When I was rebuilding the rear steering axle on the Snow cat....The inner pinion bearing....Local supply house wanted $700 and change for the one bearing.

EBAY SELLER...NEW OLD STOCK BEARING $20 TO MY DOOR....Box looked like hell....bearing was like new.

I only paid about $250 for all 14 bearings in that gear box.....

All top brand...except one.....It came in a batch of 8 that were for the drop boxes...

Likely that one came from across the pond....No numbers on it either.....

I just picked up an OEM (GM ) Evap vent solenoid unit for the Avy.
New in original box ....Ebay...about 1/3 of the $$$$$ across the counter at the parts house ....and it is a GM part too....

I also picked up a fresh GM yellow (E85) fuel cap too.About half the $$$ than the parts house.

I recently picked up rings for the 400 SBC thats going in the Snow cat.....Very inexpensive ...Mahle brand too...

Got the crank bearings from the same seller....Enginetech brand...

Delivered to the door too....

JohnC

04-18-2022, 14:36

Just be wary. I've heard you can get counterfeit LocTite on Amazon...

Robyn

04-18-2022, 16:25

Hmmmm...now that's interesting.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiqqtXp4J73AhU0JEQIHdYTDgEQFnoECAkQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henkel-adhesives.com%2Fvn%2Fen%2Fspotlights%2Fall-spotlights%2Fnews%2Fhow-to-check-if-your-Loctite-is-genuine.html&usg=AOvVaw2wCJb_oiqBfvQFF-VqXV7l

Yukon6.2

04-19-2022, 08:16

My brother bought a band saw mill...
We were talking about counterfeiting wood to use in our building projects.
Here you have to use "graded wood" for building anything an inspector will look at.
We discussed getting a stamp made to stamp our wood after we plained it.

JohnC

04-19-2022, 13:28

Sounds like you're building airplanes!

Yukon6.2

04-19-2022, 20:54

6484 Today started with a duramax pulling a 6.5
6485Got the engine on a stand and popped off the left head and saw a picture seen on the Diesel Page a few times.Casey had the latest experience with these valves.6486
So i completed the tear down to getting the piston out and the valves.
506 block never been touched.Good hatch marks in the cylinder yet.
Found the web closest to the bad cylinder cracked the rest look uncracked.
Bearings look not bad,was some weird etching on the rod,maybe from sitting for years.
Heads have cracks between some valves,the seats on the bad cylinder looked ok,some wear in the guides.
Decisions...
If the block was uncracked i would probably get bearings,rings and use it with another piston
If the heads were in better shape i would probably get new valves,not sure how bad the guides are, but they feel sloppy.
Finding a used piston might be tough the wrecking yard is covered in snow so finding the 6.5's will be like looking for a needle in a hay stack. Last time i was there i found a couple cores.
I got a hold of the closest machine shop to see about valves,or heads out of curiosity.They have a decent price on Hastings rings at $170.00 an old stock Victor rebuild gasket set for $57.00 and head bolts for $15.25 a set.I would rather have Felpro gaskets,not sure if bolts matter.
The cracks weren't unexpected,but still a bummer when they actually are seen.Had to go over the block twice to find the one,so there might be others to be seen once the crank is out.
Thats it for now,might do my weekly chores now while i ponder what to do.
I still have the dirty 141 block from my tow truck that was pressuring up,if i strip it down i suspect i will find similar cracks.If the Burb is original it's got a little over 200k miles,the tow truck had about 180K miles when it was pulled.That is if it was original to the tow truck

Robyn

04-20-2022, 05:18

Get some pics of that cracked web...
Also of importance....Get a piccy of the oil squirt nozzles in the main saddles.

Check the area in the saddle where the oil squirter go though for cracks.

The early 506 blocks used a larger nozzle diameter (hole through the saddle is larger too...these were prone to cracking)

Check the bottom of the cylinders at the very edge for cracks too.

I have seen cracks that go from the main saddle up into the cylinder wall.....GAME OVER

Does this block have small outer main bolts ???? (Later 506)

If the crack is fairly short in length ......Likely it will not do much.
If the crack is waaaaaaay up into the web....not good.

As far as the heads go.....As I mentioned....A set of clear water heads are a good jump...
I have used a few sets and they were great....

Felpro gaskets are the best choice for these engines...

The bolt sets ???? I have always used Felpro bolts.....Probably not a big deal.

That crack can be inserted with a LOCKNSTICH insert if it is not real deep.

*****NOTE******

Make sure you get hold of all 8 oil squirters before you clean the block and be sure all are back in their holes as you reassemble.

There have been incidence where one has fallen out or ??? HUGE OIL LEAK.....

CRACKS......

I would strip that 141 block down just for the helluvit....The pressure may have been a simple head gasket or a cracked head...

The 141 and 599 blocks were not as prone to cracks as the 506 blocks.

The 141 is not a squirt block.....IF YOU USE IT....You would want to use the oil pump from the 141.

The 506 squirt blocks use a high volume pump to cover those 8 squirter outputs.

Using a squirt pump on a non squirt block will give you LOTSSA OIL PRESSURE...75 PSI

Since you have the 141....LOOK AT IT.

Check the cylinder deck area where the FIRE RING sits for erosion in the deck from the fire ring.
This is most common on the front and rear cylinders next to the large water passages...
Most common on the front two cylinders as the coolant lays in the dead zone.

More common if the coolant has not been kept "Fresh" or used with water that has nasty minerals and such......

The 141 should have usable pistons

If you need a piston...I think I have a few on a shelf.....Be happy to send ya one ...

arveetek

04-20-2022, 07:09

Whoa! That is interesting. Are you sure this is a 1998 model? My 506 block was from a 1997 truck, and it has the smaller outer main bearing bolts. Thankfully my block was crack-free and looked pristine.

I'm thinking GM had a bad batch of exhaust valves. Bummer you got one too. If you end up reusing those heads, be sure to replace ALL of the valves!!

I'm surprised your engine was running as good as it was. When my valve broke, it ran like a turd and knocked pretty bad.

I agree with Robyn; I'd tear the 141 engine down to see what you have. You might have a better platform to start with.

Casey

Robyn

04-20-2022, 07:53

Early 506 squirt blocks had large bolts in both locations on the center mains.

The large bolt holes seriously weakens the web area.

Another thing to think about.

All the bolt holes are very sharp at the part line between the cap and the block....

I always use a countersink and lightly touch the holes to remove the stress riser.

In fact on my last build I "Deburred" all the bolts holes on the bottom end...Also did the caps too....

Sharp edges are a perfect start for cracks.....

Another spot to check is any tool nicks in the bottom of the cylinder bores.....(Drill hits from the squirt hole drilling) These can and will cause cracks.

Deburr the oil squirt holes in the block as well as the main oil delivery holes.

No need to get crazy...just break the sharp edges....maybe 1/64" wide chamfer...

"Dehorning" as I call it is a good thing..Stress risers cause parts to break......

Sadly these engines should have had a cross bolted bottom end with the deep skirted block.

Likely a bean counter thing....

The AMG P400 got the near equivalent with the girdle adaptation...

Yukon6.2

04-20-2022, 09:03

Casey
The sub has a build date of 11/97 and i would bet money that it is the original engine,seemed factory sealed and all fasteners were on it and plastic clips for wiring were connected,Flywheel and torque converter bolts were loctited.It did run pretty good for a dead hole,once i got it running.Even got it up to 90+MPH up hill when i was flogin it looking for weakness.
Robyn
Thanks for the offer of the piston,i am going to take the day and do my weekly chores and think about my next plan.This Burb wasn't scheduled to stay in my fleet.That may change depending on how deep i get into the engine.I hate to fix thing with the possibility of immanent failure.If the Burb had been running on all 8 i would have happily driven it anywhere oblivious of the cracks.Now that i know they are there they become that nagging thought.
Originally i was going to tear the 141 apart first,but it's a dirty mess compared to the 506.My well decided to take a break so no water for the pressure washer.My thoughts were the 506 stood a better chance of being rebuild able.Looked maintained better,the tow truck probably had a harder life.No idea if the 141 was original to the tow truck,there was so much added and messed with who knows.Plus tow trucks live a hard life.
Decissions...
Have to get it sorted soon as i need the burb for June road trip.

Robyn

04-20-2022, 10:37

Rip the bottom off the 141 and take a quicky peek at the main webs.....

If they look pretty good then yank it down.....

Just use the front cover, crank sensor and such from the Burb.

What year did the 141 come out of ????

My last Burb went 255,000 miles before it lost a head gasket.

I did rings, bearings, soft plugs and a set of Clear water heads.....Felpro gaskets and bolts...

Had the squirts freshened up in Portland at Diesel fuel injection company.....
Fresh glow plugs..

That rig ran like a scalded dog.....

arveetek

04-20-2022, 12:10

Yukon6.2

04-21-2022, 08:30

I think the truck the 141 came out of is a 97,it did have the dual Tstat cooling.
According to the mileage it should be in similar condition wear wise.
If it was the original in the tow truck.
So the plan for the day is to peak under the skirt of the 141 and see what it's got to say...

Robyn

04-21-2022, 12:29

Waiting anxiously to see whatcha find...

Yukon6.2

04-22-2022, 10:47

So 141...
It wasn't it's first dance,first thing i found which lowered my expectations...
Cork gaskets on the valve covers and pan
Heads are decent only one small crack on one cylinder,"A" precups
Pistons marked std
Rods had marks on them not the way it should be done when you take on apart for the first time.They had dots punched into the bottom of the cap instead of matching numbers on the same side of rad and cap.
Number 5 has a bad score that they said good enough and tossed in new parts.The cylinders were honed without cross hatching the marks are parallel with the deck.
I popped out number 5 piston to check it out better an it must of ingested something in it's past life, bearings are std but they nicked the crank on the journal which put a grove in the bearing,i am sure there will be more.
2 web cracks and one head bolt hole crack very front bolt on the outside of the head at cyl 1.Cracked to the outside of the block.
So not a lot of parts to feel good about.
I have one more swing left
I have a 94 crewcab that i got from a yard cleanup,5 speed 4x4 low milage for the year work truck.It's been sitting for a long time.a PO hauled it from Northern Alberta to Haines Junction for some reason probably not the body.
The guys yard it came out of was trying to get it to run without any luck,at the time i advised him to put a mechanical pump on it as it was a 5 speed.Being a 94 the injection pump is year specific that seemed the way to go with unknown issues.They never had any luck.Somehow a buddy of mine was asked to change the timing chain in it which he never did before the owner died.
It's got clean oil in it,so today i will investigate it and see if it's worth pulling.Wish i had a compression guage that was accurate then would use it to see how healthy it was.No chance of it running without a pump change as the truck is too cannibalized to try to run it in place.Steering column has been removed and who knows what else.
PMD is still on the pump so my guess is that was the reason it would not run.
Staring down the hole of the outhouse where i just dropped a $50
Trying to decide if i toss another $50 in there if it will be worth my time to jump in and get them.
Have a great Sunday everyone

Robyn

04-22-2022, 12:23

Sounds about right with 6.5 stories.

Keep us in the loop.

Something good has got to pop up

a5150nut

04-22-2022, 17:10

So 141...

Staring down the hole of the outhouse where i just dropped a $50
Trying to decide if i toss another $50 in there if it will be worth my time to jump in and get them.
Have a great Sunday everyone

Once on a job site I came out of a portable toilet to a truck driver standing there waiting his turn. As serious as I could I asked him if I could barrow a $10 bill, I'll give it right back I told him. He was reaching in his pocket then asked why I needed it? I told him I had just dropped one in the ****ter and it wasn't worth reaching for it. But if there were two of them floating down there it would be worth it! He withdrew his hand from his pocket and looked at me in disbelief.

Truck drivers are fun to mess with. . . . .

Robyn

04-23-2022, 05:00

ROFLMAO.....SNORTING COFFEE OUT MY NOSE......

Yessssssssssssssss....I have seen that joke pulled a few times....

Always fun to watch the look on peoples faces....:D:D

Yukon6.2

04-23-2022, 09:36

For some reason i thought yesterday was Sunday...
I now i have 2 days that i didn't realize i had yesterday.
Nothing to report on the 94 yet,my SIL came by yesterday and wanted her new tires on her horse trailer and bearings checked.
I thought briefly of stealing her engine,kinda like salt in a wound when i had to move it.64876488
And a shot of the yard art 6.5 not holding out a lot of hope on it.
The idea forming is to try and get a piston for the 506,use the heads from the 141,buy the Victor parts on sale,gaskets and head bolts buy some Double Bubble and hope for the best.Will not be much coin in it just a buttload of time.
Then when the snow goes see my buddy with the scrap yard,load up all the 6.5 stuff laying around his place and see if there is anything good enough to spend money on.
A worm hole that i wasn't expecting for sure,i should have picked the straight body gasser as the road tripper.

Yukon6.2

04-24-2022, 09:29

So i am leaving the Yard Art 6.5 as is for now
Water in the oil pan,it didn't have a hood on it and water got inside because the tuna can hole is empty,and that is the only opening that i could see.
Robyn
If you are willing to send me a piston that would be awesome,as i don't have anything that can donate a stock one.I thought i may be able to get one from a 93 that is tore apart in the back of a buddys truck,but it's .30 over,his block is pouched as well.I could pay for postage with Paypal if that works.
I have decided to go the Double Bubble way,the original block is the best i have to work with,bores are good the heads from the 141 checked out as straight and one tiny crack about halfway between a couple valves,
Pre cups have an A om them and are all matching no big cracks in them.I will go with Felpro head gaskets.
If it wasn't for the bad cylinder i would be driving the Burb without any worries about the crack in the block.
So i guess if it was going to be an issue and die on the trip,it will still have that chance to mess up our trip.I will get BCAA for roadside assistance as a way to lessen the blow of something happening.
Unless a good running 6.5 shows up i have to get this one back in the truck.

Yukon6.2

04-26-2022, 08:58

So i placed the Bubble Gum order
Gaskets,seals,headbolts.injectors and a chain.
Order says it will be here by the 6th of May,which gives me time to prep all the parts for reassembly.If i didn't have a list of spring things to be done i may have rebuilt the injectors myself.Time is getting short to get the truck on the road to use for our road trip,plus my spring list helped me decide to get the new ones.I have a couple commercial truck inspections to get done before the end of the month,my first load of containers are showing up around the end of the month which i have to go to Alaska to pickup.That presents the Covid challenge,can i get back into Canada without a vac card? Time will tell i guess.
Thanks all who chimed in and offered suggestions and encouragement.

Plus i still need a piston,so hopefully i can connect with Robyn for one of those.

Robyn

04-26-2022, 12:56

Piston all packed up for ya.....
I was going to get it out today....but things got sideways this morning....Tomorrow we have to go to town to get groceries....I will drop the package off at the Post Office.....

USPS FLAT RATE BOX.....

Yukon6.2

04-27-2022, 09:39

Hi Robyn
Came home to the beep of the answering machine...
And the was the message from you telling me the piston is on it's way,
Awesome and THANK YOU...
If there is anything Yukon related that you want/need just ask.
I wish i would have been home it would have been great to B.S. a bit.
If things were different due to covid,we would have been taking a trip into the US from Vancouver,but neither my partner or i have the required jabs.
Thank you again,snow is starting to dissapear quick now that it quit freezing at night,the days are ticking away.
Road Trip coming soon.

Robyn

04-27-2022, 11:50

Hope the part will help fix the beast.

If you decide to make a road trip...let me know and I will PM my address.

You folks are welcome at our camp fire....:D

We did not get jabbed either.....Everyone we know that got poked got sick....

I had two bouts of the nasty virus..

More of a nuisance than anything else.....
All better now....

Yukon6.2

05-05-2022, 09:12

The Burb has been on the back burner for the last week or so
Gaskets and head bolts showed up.
I have been getting my Kenworth ready for the summer,replaced a few things,service and oil change.It's a wheel off inspection this year.All was good and the CVIP sticker and license plate purchased.$700.00 big ones to drive it for the summer.
Back to the Burb ,i have a tube of "The Right Stuff" and a tube of black silicone.I think i am leaning to "the Right Stuff for sealing up the tins on it.
The injectors that were advertised were out of stock,so depending on time i may look into getting some nozzles and try to rebuild a set.
Anything else that should be done now while it's apart? Front tranny seal is on the list.
Thanks All for the helps so far.
Thomas

arveetek

05-05-2022, 10:02

I used the Right Stuff on my valve covers and oil pan. It's definitely the right stuff! Seals up great; no leaks. Just a real pain if you need to remove those items later because they are glued down well.

I ordered injectors and a bunch of other items from here for my recent build:

https://quadstartuning.com/

Great products at great prices. I'm not sure what the costs of shipping to Canada would be, though.

Casey

Yukon6.2

05-07-2022, 09:26

Box O Pistons showed up yesterday,Thank You Robyn
I will spend today washing and prepping.
Clean the threads for the head bolts ,water pump and the rest of the block
I am assuming that when a person takes the timing cover and pump off,that the plate should be removed from the water pump and resealed.Factory looked like some kind of sealer ,no gasket.What have the rest of you done for successful sealing of the cover and pump assembly? I think there are gaskets in the Felpro Kit,are they worth using or should i go with just a sealer like "The Right Stuff" and make life miserable for the next person taking it apart?Thread sealer looks like a must for the water pump bolts
I have a factory manual for a 90 6.2 and am assuming all torque specs will be the same for the 6.2 and 6.5.
I did pop the rear main off to look at the bearings.
This will end up as a good quality "Bush Fix" as the block has a crack.
For that reason no new bearings or rings.
If i end up keeping the truck for years maybe there will be a revile in a few years to see how the block progressed from one crack to either more or stayed the same.
Any tips or suggestions from those who have the 6.5 rebuild fresh in their minds?
Thanks Again the end of this chapter looks closer now.

Robyn

05-07-2022, 10:03

YESSSSSSS

Reseal that plate.

I usually use HI TEMP RTV TO SEAL THE PLATE .
I use a "smear" of the RTV on both sides of the gaskets too....

A very good way to keep the various liquids where they need to be.

"The RIGHT STUFF" WILL WORK TOO.
I have never used it myself.

I use the high temp RTV on the valve covers too.

A generous fillet of the goop in the channels of the covers and then gently set them on the heads (I install a few long Allen set screws in the head to pilot the covers) Mush the covers down and then install the regular bolts and SNUG UP gently to finger tight or a tad more.

Let the RTV cure overnight and then snug the bolts down....

Make sure the cover flanges are not bent...if so straighten them up with a small hammer keeping the cover flanges on a steel plate....

Any areas like where the timing cover and the pan fit together can benefit from a fillet of RTV IN THE CORNERS.....

DmaxMaverick

05-07-2022, 10:44

Correct, no gaskets on a factory build, and any subsequent competent rebuilds. Some aftermarket kits supply gaskets where there were none before, but I suspect it's more out of habit than an actual solution to any problem. The Right Stuff is only slightly more inconvenient at disassembly than traditional gaskets and RTV, but if it's there when it's torqued, it won't leak until someone/thing breaks it loose. The Duramax engine (at least the early models that I know of) are sealed with the Stuff and few/no gaskets. My 21 Y/O truck with original Stuff, and with the top end resealed 3X (original warranty, 2X injectors, + 1X return lines) with The Stuff, doesn't leak or weep at all. I'm confident that if gaskets and/or RTV were used, I'd be adding oil regularly at this point, and there would be no dust where I park it (doesn't currently lose any oil between 10K mile changes).

Verify torque values for the 6.5 model/casting. Some thread size changes and updates happened over the years. I don't recall which are different, but I make a conscience effort to never memorize torque values (or apply what I might remember). Always verify.

Anaerobic thread sealer for the water pump pass-throughs (and head bolts, if no pre-applied thread sealer, and especially studs!). New Fel-Pro TTY head bolts should have pre-applied thread sealer. You could use RTV or The Right Stuff, if you have a week or more to let it cure before adding coolant.

Yukon6.2

05-08-2022, 09:41

Thanks All for the tips
My parts washer got a work out,the formerly clear fluid now has a definate 6.5 black look to it.
Got everything cleaned up,Robyn's replacement piston measured and fitted,new timing chain on then before i left it last night i turned it right side up and fogged the bottom end with diesel to hopefully rinse out any crud that mad it's way into it from being open for the last couple weeks.
Found some interesting numbers on the block.Looks like someone changed their mind on the one set.
This 6.5 was very clean on the outside,the valve covers were a bitch to get off,same as the pan.Edges have been trued up and holes dimpled up slightly.I used to do the same to my small block valve covers.
I picked the piston that Robyn unintentionally sent some BTU's with...
Found a nutshell in the ring grove.
Today the heads will go on,maybe the oil pan will get glued on along with timing chain cover.
Or something will come up and decide today is not the day to finish off the 6.5
649564966497
It looks like the original engine by the date.

Robyn

05-08-2022, 10:49

OH MY
I grabbed the pistons and sat then in a bucket full of shells and carried them upstairs to package them up...

Sorry about that....I did look at the pistons...There were a few pieces of shell...Thought I got them all....

Ah well...no extra charge.. :rolleyes:

Robyn

05-09-2022, 08:36

JUST AN FYI

Piston clearance on the rear pistons to cylinder wall is factory spec'd by GM at .0042" - .0052"
The remainder are at .0037"- .0047"

When I built the fresh AMG BLOCK for the Dahooooley some years back we set the piston to wall clearance at .0045" on all of them.

Good spec to avoid a squeaker.....

Yukon6.2

05-14-2022, 08:23

After a busy week which included my first C can run of the summer the 6.5 is ready to go back in it's hole.
6498
My trip to Haines Alaska was a beautiful drive,leaves and green grass in Haines that was nice to see as on Wednesday morning i woke up to snow going past the window horizontally.
Saw my first Grizz of the year too.
If i get lucky and no big interruptions today it may be rattling away this evening.

Robyn

05-14-2022, 11:34

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet....

Gonna be nice to see it back on it's feet....

Yukon6.2

05-16-2022, 09:49

Finally a smokeless Burb...
Got everything bolted on and buttoned up last night and went for a drive
Idles smooth, starts nice,has good oil pressure.So far nothing leaking.
Time to get some miles on it and get a feeling of dependability from it.
I did end up with on wiring plug that i can't find the place to plug it it,it branches out about a foot past the plug for the temp sensor.No codes or lights.6501
Hopefully putting miles on this Burb will be all the attention it needs for a while.
Diesel is $6.86 a US gallon at USD.
Thats to our useless leaders,thanks for nothing.
On ward to my next project,which is yard cleaning for the summer,my goal is to remove 22 vehicles in 2022,Number 1 was gone a month ago before the ground got muddy. Hopefully more sell then get scraped but i doubt that will happen.I have a 70 Ford crew cab which is headed to Alberta and a 74 Buick that is heading to Whitehorse which is great that was one i thought would end up at the landfill.
Thanks again to all who chimed in on this nightmare project,your help kept me heading in the right directions.Had i known about the bad cylinder the burb would still be sitting in the dead line.
Lots of time and money invested in this...
But it's alive and a functioning vehicle again,so that's a win
The Diesel Page Rules

Robyn

05-17-2022, 06:34

Great deal....Glad the rig is running well.

Not sure on that plug.
I do not have a schematic for the 1998 year model rigs.

The harness on the engine is fairly bomb proof...as in the plugs are such that they are all different and IIRC can't be mixed up.

You said the wire is past the temp sensor ??? Is this the gauge sender or the one on the coolant cross over "Coolant temp switch" ??????

If the beast is not complaining....AS IN SES LAMP LIT....Then its not a big issue....

OBD2 stuff is not very forgiving when it comes to wires not hooked up...

Robyn

05-17-2022, 06:38

IS THIS ON THE DRIVERS SIDE OF THE ENGINE ??????

IF IT IS...CHECK THE POWER STEERING PUMP NEAR THE REAR.....There is a pressure control valve there ... "Variable power steering"

The Red plug...2 pin and the Red clip are the right color.

The EVO solenoid may have a short pig tail, or the plug may go into the solenoid itself.

https://d2npgj2tt6o4b9.cloudfront.net/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/p/h/ph-26069031_1.JPG

More Power

05-17-2022, 07:28

Great job Yukon!

It's so amazing when it all works...

Yukon6.2

05-17-2022, 09:42

Not completely finished as there are always a few things that surface...
The first time i went to open the hood after it was running the hood release pivot broke off,that usually happens at -40 when you need to boost a truck
Oil supply for the turbo is weeping and making a mess,small mess so far
And a hint of diesel smell and sings of smoke from the turbo side which is probably a diesel weep of some sort
Good power,when you put your foot in it it rolls coal,which i imagine is the Kennedy tune.A Holset may get the call after this last work is a fading memory.
Now that i am not trying to diagnose the engine while driving it...some other issues are being noticed like the steering is a bit loose so a swap of the steering box will be on the list of To Do's,a little herding down the road is required to stay between the lines
Start up went by the book,left the glow plugs out,jumped the fuel pump relay and filled the filter housing,then cranked for 30 sec's a couple times saw the diesel mist installed the glow plugs and down pipe,went through a glow plug sequence and it fired right up.
It was a great sound to hear,and did i mention No Smoke
I will check around the pump for a plug.
Usually wiring harnesses kinda just fall into place,lay them out and the memory of the wires usually direct where they go.
I have looked all around the 12 inches that this wire goes in all directions.
No lights on in the dash so it's not a critical wire,but it did come from somewhere as the connector is clean.
It was a group effort to get this Burb back on the road,Thanks Everyone Again.

arveetek

05-17-2022, 12:18

Good power,when you put your foot in it it rolls coal,which i imagine is the Kennedy tune.A Holset may get the call after this last work is a fading memory.

Is it "rolling coal" all the time you have your foot down, or just at first until the turbo spools up? The stock GM turbos spool up pretty quickly and then most of the smoke should clear up. If it smokes all the time, the wastegate is not functioning properly and is allowing boost to dump and not build up.

My HX35 seems to have a bit more turbo lag than the stock GM4 did. Much more smoke at initial throttle up until the turbo spools up. It's like "rolling coal" for a few seconds until the turbo catches up. Mostly noticeable when towing.

Casey

Yukon6.2

05-18-2022, 09:05

Hi Casey
It rolls as long as you have your foot in it to the floor,clearing up once you start to build speed.If accelerating with just a bit of pedal it will accelerate with clear exhaust.I was suspecting it may not be functioning properly.Still no lights being activated on the dash,which made me think it might not be acting up.
Found the diesel leak,not the worst place like under the intake.Second worst #6 injector return line.Fender liner and turbo came off again.One of the parts on back-order was a new return hose kit.This line got by my inspection.The curse struck again and had it on the worst injector to get at.
I will see if i can play with the waste gate and get the coal sorted.
Thanks All
Thomas

Yukon6.2

05-20-2022, 09:35

Update...
Vacuum pump was bad and the line from the solenoid to the turbo had leaks.
The line actually had wear from the loom.A bunch of holes wore into it from the inside ridges of the loom.
It's amazing that this thing actually ran and moved on it's own at all.
The List
Plugged Cat
Security System glitch
Corrupted computer
Wore out Injection Pump
Bad Injectors
Valve edge broke off on cyl 7
Bad Vacuum pump and lines
Had i known about the valve i would not have invested my time in this truck at the time,maybe never.
Runs real good now,and in Roadkill fashion it even does burnouts so that's a win.
The fuel gauge isn't reading right,shows about a third when it starts running out of fuel.Happened twice so i am convinced the guage is wrong.Filled it up and it went way over full.
At the prices of diesel here it took an even $300.00 to fill it:mad: Hopefully by the time this tank is done all drivability issues will be ironed out.
I have a handful of PMD's to roadtest to see if they are any good.My thoughts are if they don't do any weird stuff for a week they should be ok.
Filled 1/2 tank on my Kenworth last week to do my container run.$600.00 to fill one tank when the gauge was reading under 1/2.When i got back the guage was back to the same reading.Round trip is 320 miles.
Things are going to get expensive soon.
the excrement is piling up and is going to hit the fan
Stock up on dry goods while you can.

Robyn

05-20-2022, 10:01

Glad to hear that the Burb is getting up to par.

Did you find a home for the Loose Red electrical connector ???

Yukon6.2

05-21-2022, 07:43

Not to many things on the list anymore
the orphaned red plug is just hanging around,but so far nobody misses it.
Took some play out of the steering box yesterday,the wandering on the road is almost gone,i will give it another 1/8 turn today.
Will have to look into the fuel gauge,that is a bit of an issue.
My next victim for the scrap heap is donating a hood release,headlights to try cleaning the lens's and rims,just need to find a couple GMC hubcaps,and maybe a gauge if that is the issue.

Robyn

05-21-2022, 09:04

That Red plug should plug into the power steering pump on its rear face in the EVO solenoid.

Yukon6.2

06-01-2022, 09:05

So a week + and the Burb seems to be happy being a daily driver,no road trips yet.Been hoping for a service call from Uhaul to change a trailer tire 150 miles away or so.
A question for Robyn...
Where do i start on trying to diagnose the AC.After a week without a snow fall summer is here and it's hot out.The AC does not blow cold.
It's been too long without working on it ,i need to fix the final things so i can move on.
Thanks ALL

Robyn

06-01-2022, 09:17

If the AC clutch does not engage when the switch is turned on..

Low on charge....Or leaked all out.

Get the charging harness hooked up and see wassup....

If the pressures are equal and above 50 psi then it may be the clutch switch on the accumulator is bad....

Check those by jumpering the two wires in the plug.

If it starts the compressor the switch is junk

If the charge is really low the switch will keep the clutch from working.

A leaking hose. or ?????
A compressor that has a shaft seal leak
A compressor with a leaky case O ring seals
If the system is nearly flat....add some 134a to get some pressure and then go after the hose connections, compressor and such with the sniffer....

The compressors used on these can have case section O ring leaks.

See what ya find and let us know......

Any and all hoses and connections can be suspect.
Condenser fittings too....Look for signs of oil seepage .....this is a dead give away that you have a refrigerant leak....

The snooper will ferret leaks out quick...

If you need to open the system and replace parts, hoses and such.

Hook up a vacuum pump and suck the system into a vacuum of 30 inches for at least30 minutes to remove all moisture and then with the system still in a vacuum....add 134a and get the compressor running.

Continue to add 134 a until the air temp at the dash vents are below 40 degrees.

Watch low side pressure....

Do not overfill the system.

If you need to open the system....replace the accumulator and add the proper oil....Should be synthetic refrigerant oil...about 6 ounces into the accumulator....then install in the system....
PAG 100 OIL is common on 134a system

Yukon6.2

06-02-2022, 08:02

Thanks Robyn
When i get a chance i will see what's up.
Today i go get a load of 3 sea cans from Haines Alaska
Nice day for a drive,hope the border agents are in a good mood.

Robyn

06-02-2022, 08:25

That would be a good thing......
Snotty border agents would suck...

Yukon6.2

06-03-2022, 07:45

No luck with the Border Guards this time...
Told i have to quarantine for 14 days
So i will probably get arrested if i don't find a lawyer that can be an interpreter.
If i stay at home i will be fined by the federal government because an appointment made 6 months ago to get my pump meter's re-certified as required by law is this Saturday,I have already received two notices that the meters are due.Next is a fine then they come and close my business.
If i continue to do the things i have to to keep my business operational i will be fined and probably arrested.
Stupid rules by stupid people.
I spent less than 1 hour with my feet on US soil,that was on a freight dock by the ocean.2 hours were spent driving on US pavement.Aprox 3 hrs spent inside the US border.
Stay tuned

Yukon6.2

06-17-2022, 08:39

Finally put a few highway miles on last night.
Had to run a set of keys out to meet my GF partway between out town and the big smoke.
30 miles at 70-80 one way and the same back home.
No hicups no leaks since it fired up.
Saw a Momma Grizzly and cub at 12:47 AM still light enough to drive without lights.Living up here you kinda take the daylight for granted in the summer.But then once in a while it hits you while you are out in the light at midnight.
Land of the Midnight Sun

More Power

06-17-2022, 09:30

30 miles at 70-80
Glad you're back on the road! "70-80" sounded fast... till I remembered this is kph... ;)

I'm ok not seeing grizzlies... ;)

Robyn

06-18-2022, 04:13

Glad the rig is "Gittenerdone" A good place for that piston, rather than on my shelf for another 10 years.
I have only seen a Griz once....Back in 1970 up in Glacier Park MT.
Griz was on one side of a small lake....We were on the other.....We left, lake was way too small and Griz knew were were there....

Yukon6.2

06-18-2022, 09:11

Glad you're back on the road! "70-80" sounded fast... till I remembered this is kph... ;)

I'm ok not seeing grizzlies... ;)
The Burb is in miles,empty roads that i have traveled a million times.
2000-2300 RPM

Yukon6.2

08-19-2022, 09:14

Hi All
I bought an serviced Industrial lot to be the new home of my storage end of my business.
It will house a fenced compound with 20Ft sea cans as storage units,i have about 30 in my inventory now.
Being serviced i will make 4-6 deep utility RV sites for those brave souls that want to spend winters in an RV.Plus i needed a spot so i can rent out my Converted MCI bus.Plus there will be an open invitation to any Dieselpage members if they make it up here there will be a site for you.
So it presented a great opportunity to put some miles on the Burb.It had been sitting for a couple months,all fluids were great hit the key and she fired up smokeless and happy.The Burb did what it's supposed to do,ran awesome was a nice comfortable ride and quite.The guy i bought the lot from is an old friend so it was a great trip to catch up.The last road trip we were on was a mission to pickup his 50's Cadillac Ambulance with my signature truck.
Life is at the cusp of getting hectic for a bit,i have very interested people for my land and buildings that i operate out of.If the deal goes through i have to move after being in my shop for 25 years.I have 40-50 vehicles i don't want to leave behind.

Yukon6.2

02-15-2023, 09:35

Update on my Burb...
It has been unseasonably warm here since the new year.
I had parked it in November.The truck it was parked in front of got sold.
I cleared the accumulation of snow off of it unlocked the door and put the key into glowplug position and waited.
Light went out and i turned it over,flashed right up no hesitation.Got to like Kennedys tune for a bit of additional glow time.
I was very impressed at the start.No excessive smoke,running like it was running the day before.