View Full Version : I bought an Optimizer NAVSTAR
So the cost to fully rebuild a pre 2001 6.5 locally is about $4,000-$6,000. I was thinking to myself... Heh, I already got $50,000 in my K5blazer, why not another $5800 for an Optimizer NAVSTAR? So I did it... I guess I’ll just sell the surplus of parts and motors I have and use that money to get caught back up on this new purchase. Smart move? I think so! I already made $1,200 in parts that I picked up from a member and am about to make another $2000+ on a 6.5 I am almost done refurbishing.
I thought about a Cummins swap and had to also consider that cost, modifications and additional weight that is not good for Rock Crawling and off-road.
So what water pump, coolant cross over, IP, intake, turbo and exhaust manifolds should I use on the Optimizer?
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Would a Banks Sidewinder turbo kit be best for this Optimizer? GM5? GM8? Bolt on or spin on fan? HO water pump or OEM water pump? I guess I have some 6.5 Diesel Page Books to read lol!
What year Blazer ?????
The hiflow water pump needs a dual Tstat xover
The Banks turbo is a good unit.
Make sure you don't have an interference with the injectors and the Banks manifold.
Is the BANKS gear for a later 6.5 or a 6.2 ????
Using a DB2 mechanical IP ?????
The injector lines are different between the DB2 AND THE DS4
Injectors for the DS4 pumps pop at a higher pressure.
A DB2 will not hack the high pop on the injectors set up for a DS4
Are you using a serp belt system????
The later water pumps are all for the serp drive setups. CCW ROTATION
What year Blazer ?????
The hiflow water pump needs a dual Tstat xover
The Banks turbo is a good unit.
Make sure you don't have an interference with the injectors and the Banks manifold.
Is the BANKS gear for a later 6.5 or a 6.2 ????
Using a DB2 mechanical IP ?????
The injector lines are different between the DB2 AND THE DS4
Injectors for the DS4 pumps pop at a higher pressure.
A DB2 will not hack the high pop on the injectors set up for a DS4
Are you using a serp belt system????
The later water pumps are all for the serp drive setups. CCW ROTATION
I am thinking about these accessories:
6.5 upper and lower air intake
6.5 Gm8 turbo
6.5 HO water pump
6.5 Dual Thermostat
6.5 4911 Mechanical pump
6.5 New 1993 injectors to match the pop pressure for the 4911 IP
Dual Alternators
Serpentine belt set
Diamond Eye 4” exhaust
Fluidamper
Should I do the 9 blade bolt on fan or 9 blade spin on fan? The spin on fan is plastic and lighter.
DmaxMaverick
01-30-2021, 16:29
Just for reference.....
The injection pump does not have a "pop pressure". The operating pressure of the injection side of the system is determined solely by the injectors. The problem with using 6.5TD injectors with the 6.2L series of DB2 pumps is the pump's ability to sustain that pressure. A healthy pump will do it, but it wasn't designed to continue at that pressure. The 4911 pump is different. I was designed to sustain 6.5TD injector pressure, and does so in stride. The 4911 pump will handle all that the DS4 pump will, although it falls a little short of the DS4's capable volume. This is rarely an issue for anything close to streetable.
Just for reference.....
The injection pump does not have a "pop pressure". The operating pressure of the injection side of the system is determined solely by the injectors. The problem with using 6.5TD injectors with the 6.2L series of DB2 pumps is the pump's ability to sustain that pressure. A healthy pump will do it, but it wasn't designed to continue at that pressure. The 4911 pump is different. I was designed to sustain 6.5TD injector pressure, and does so in stride. The 4911 pump will handle all that the DS4 pump will, although it falls a little short of the DS4's capable volume. This is rarely an issue for anything close to streetable.
Well the motor will be shipped in about 2 weeks. Has anyone ever used the Quadstar Upper Plenum?
sctrailrider
01-30-2021, 18:40
Well the motor will be shipped in about 2 weeks. Has anyone ever used the Quadstar Upper Plenum?
Well I haven't, but it doesn't look like much of a upgrade, has anyone ever shown flow test's to show it does anything better... The Unique Diesel upper would be my choice..... and it will turn left or right...
5758
What Maverick said .....
Have your injectors set to 1992 -1993 6.5 pop specs.
MAKE SURE THE POP PRESSURES ARE ALL EQUAL AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE
Differences in the pop pressure equates to a difference in cylinder to cylinder timing.
Having all injectors spot on makes a very smooth running engine.....and reduces torsional loading that you do not want......
Myself...I like to see the pop pressures about in the middle of the spec......Higher pressures puts more stress on the pump........
Now this little ditty is just one of my quirks......but has served me well.
The much higher pop of the DS4 does make for a bit better spray.....likely was an emission thing......
The 4911 pump done up right is a great unit..
Have fun.....
So here’s info and prices for the benifit of other members.
This Optimizer NAVSTAR is a long block. (Not Fully Dressed with accessories)
Company info:
Bostic Motors Inc (BMI)
157 N Main St, Bostic, NC 28018
+1 (828) 453-7779
Jeff Aiello
$5400 Optimizer NAVSTAR Longblock
$429.80 Shipping to Montana
$500 Core Charge (Will refund after inspection of core, they pay for core shipment!)
$6,329.80 Total
1 year unlimited mile warranty
My cost out of pocket after selling motors and parts $0
This company specializes in Only 6.5 and 6.2. They know their stuff. Jeff told me, like the P400, the Optimizer is going to be phased out in 8 months.
Since I still have a lot of parts, I decided to buy their longblock. Their fully dressed Optimizer is...
$9840
+$1500 core
+$425 shipping
Total $11,765
A lot has been improved. Here is link of more info...
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2007/06/the-optimizer-6500/
Bostic Motors claims they have never had any of their Optimizers Crack with over 100 Optimizers sold. I checked their reviews and it appears their claim is legit.
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It may not be fresh from the factory but their reman process is good! Practically a new motor if not better. Here’s more info:
The pictured engine fits 92-2001 Chevy & GMC C/K Series trucks w/ GM 6.5L Turbo Diesel (Sidemount Turbo).
This is a re-manufactured engine using Genuine AM General / GEP Optimizer™ / Navistar™castings..... the ones built after 2004 with the better castings.
This engine will also fit all Non-Turbo applications, Pickup Truck, Van or the H-1 Hummer.
This engine can also be built to service all Center-mount or Rear-Mounted Turbo applications, (H-1 Hummers , Vans & some RV's).
For over 21 years now, we have been involved with the 6.2L and later the 6.5L engine exclusively.
Check out our Feedback! People love our products and service!
Some other companies are selling new block/head engines, but be careful, most are new block/heads using the old casting forms, no improvements - FROM CHINA! . Booooo! There is only a handful of others offering IMPROVED & UPDATED castings aside from AM General and General Motors themselves.
The design improvements and re-engineering of the improved castings add durability and virtually eliminate the potential for cracking in both the block and heads.
Here is What is New and Improved about our Engines:
These Engines Are Built Using the 2004+ Optimizer™ / Navistar™ Improved Block & Head Castings.
Our engines also include major improvements to the oiling systems, including our exclusive: High Volume & High Pressure Oil pumps.
BLOCK & HEADS:
The iron used in the new block utilizes molybdenum, a metal yielding a 20-25% increase in strength, without being brittle. The new block design also incorporates improved main bearing webs and caps. In addition, the head bolt holes in the block deck are strengthened, vastly improving head gasket durability.
Additionally, changes of the water jacket design in the heads have helped address the 6.5's overheating problems. The original 6.5 & 6.2 cylinder heads produced by GM were prone to developing small cracks between the valves. The new redesigned heads have added chromium to the cast-iron to virtually eliminate these and other cracking issues.
The Optimizer™ block and head system offers complete parts interchangeability & bolt hole alignment as your original block.
OILING SYSTEM:
This engine also gains improved durability & longevity with a High Volume / High Pressure oiling system.
INTERNAL COMPONENTS:
We use MAHLE Clevite branded internal parts on both our new and remanufactured offerings. These are top quality parts from a well known industry leader. AM General and GM both use/d MAHLE as the O.E.M. internals. Mahle Clevite has significantly improved both the Pistons and Connecting Rods since the time that the 6.5 was used by General Motors. The Connecting rods are more durable and the Pistons are stronger and lighter.
With these important improvements, the BMI 6.5 is among the toughest 6.5L diesel engine available today.
We have have been selling the 6.5L engine with new improved castings for more than 9 years now with great over-the road success.
Now we can offer the Real Optimizer™ castings!
Not one block or head crack issue to date. - Now that's what we mean by an improvement.
Compare to others: Our longblocks come with already installed; Valve covers, Oil pan, Oil Pickup Tube, Timing Chain Cover, New Harmonic Balancer.
Every one of our engines are hot-run in on the dyno after final assembly.
During this time the camshsft is properly broken-in, the and the engine is monitored for any sign of oil or coolant leaks.
All of our engines are dyno tested.
This is why we do not offer short-block engines, Short-blocks can not be adequately tested on the dyno.
Be assured with our Unlimited Mileage, one year warranty covering every engine we sell. You expect hard work from your diesel powered truck, and we'll guarantee it.
We are proud of our long track record with the GM 6.5 Liter Turbo Diesel engine. We do not take shortcuts during the manufacturing process.
Please state year make, model and 8th character of VIN code when ordering to be sure we build the correct engine for your truck.
There is a Core Deposit that will be refunded when rebuildable core is received back. Any of your core's deficiencies can be pro-rated and may not necessarily mean complete forfeiture of core deposit.
Let us know when the core is ready, and our freight company will pickup the core.
We pay the return shipping for your core.
Our domestic long-block core deposit is just $500, not $1000. like some other companies, however the $1000 core must be charged for overseas buyers.
Shipping is by Truck freight and runs between $240-$450 depending on your location.
($240 in Eastcoast areas, $440 for parts of California, Points between vary accordingly) - often the freight costs shown on eBay are incorrect. (often too high)
Call our internet sales department at [phone removed by eBay] prior to ordering to insure we order the correct engine for your specific application and to give you your exact total, including proper freight quote. We can discuss your engine questions and options over the phone more efficiently than email.
We are: Bostic Motors Inc.
Not just on the internet, we have a real physical location, and a phone number:
157 North Main Street
Bostic, NC 28018
You can call us at [phone removed by eBay]
Please don't call or E-mail with retrofit or gas to diesel conversion questions. Conversions are generally not worth the effort or cost and entail quite a bit more then someone with limited experience usually thinks.
I am getting ready for the Optimizer so I took the 6.5 upper and lower plenum to the machine shop and had them cleaned in a Jet pressure washer at 190 degrees. Cost $20. OOP cost $0
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I bought a brand new GM8 made in China turbo for $284. It had great reviews and the seller sold many of them. The cheap price is worth the risk. Out of pocket cost after selling parts and motors $0.
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Next I order from Quadstar a upper plenum and turbo oil drain kit. I have seen how restrictive the 6.5 upper plenum is after it was cut in 1/2. Also every 6.5 I had touched or seen always leaked from the turbo oil drain. Total cost for both shipped $380.27. My out of pocket cost after selling parts and motors $0.
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More preparation for the Optimizer motor, I wire wheeled the gasket rtv off one of the spare 6.5 oil pans and took it into a welding shop to get a 1/8 NPT bung welded next to the oil drain so I can install my 1/8 NPT oil temperature sensor for my Phantom 2 gauge. $50 Then I took the oil pan to the machine shop to get jetted and cleaned up $20. I will do a fresh coat of black paint on it when I get more time. OOP cost $0
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The new made in China Gm8 turbo arrived. Looks great! Even has new gaskets.
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What I find interesting is the gm Oem turbo downpipe flange is bent with a crease. I can see why egts tend to get higher on the GM model.
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Sold more parts and ordered Autometer 2 1/6” Pyrometer and Boost gauge. They are the Phantom 2 to match the gauges on the dash. There is no room on the dash so I will mount these over driver head on the LMC truck Headliner. It’s going to be sweet!
Where is the best place to drill the 1/2” NPT hole for the Pyro probe on the 6.5 Manifold?
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DmaxMaverick
02-04-2021, 21:38
Nice gage selection, but you overshot the boost gage. You need a 15 - 20 PSI max range for the 6.5. I think you'll find the resolution will be way off at 30, which is more than double the potential, and 3 - 4 times your operating range. 30 PSI is more in the rage of late model Diesels.
Drill the bunghole for the pyro thermocouple in the collector manifold below the turbo, outward. It will sample temps from all cylinders there. Cold bit with NO lube or oil-type coolant (cast iron). Use a good anti-seize for the bushing, and don't overtighten it. If you will be installing it on an installed engine, drill/tap with the engine running at idle to clear the shavings (wear good eye/face protection!!!) An alternative thermocouple location is the downpipe or crossover (clamp-on type). They are easier to install, but less accurate and less immediate. Both would be ideal, being able to track turbo efficiency trends, but that ups the cost and complexity.
Nice gage selection, but you overshot the boost gage. You need a 15 - 20 PSI max range for the 6.5. I think you'll find the resolution will be way off at 30, which is more than double the potential, and 3 - 4 times your operating range. 30 PSI is more in the rage of late model Diesels.
Drill the bunghole for the pyro thermocouple in the collector manifold below the turbo, outward. It will sample temps from all cylinders there. Cold bit with NO lube or oil-type coolant (cast iron). Use a good anti-seize for the bushing, and don't overtighten it. If you will be installing it on an installed engine, drill/tap with the engine running at idle to clear the shavings (wear good eye/face protection!!!) An alternative thermocouple location is the downpipe or crossover (clamp-on type). They are easier to install, but less accurate and less immediate. Both would be ideal, being able to track turbo efficiency trends, but that ups the cost and complexity.
The lowest boost gauge Autometer offers in the Phantom 2 series is 30psi. There are other series that have the 0-20 range but I would like to have all matching gauges.
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On the LMC truck headliner there is a uncut gauge/shelf on the top driver side where the sun visor is located I plan on putting the Boost and Pyro gauge.
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The center front of the headliner would be a great spot for the gauges but I already cut it for a CB radio that has a 40 watt Conex 1969 Final in it :-D
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I’m surprised photobucket still has thes old ass pictures lol!
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DmaxMaverick
02-05-2021, 09:59
Your choice. You're locating the gages away from your IP so, in my opinion, a different style wouldn't clash. It may actually compliment. Form follows function, in my belief. Yours may vary.
arveetek
02-05-2021, 13:02
Cool headliner! I was really tempted to purchase one of those when I still had my 81 C20 (which I now regret selling).
Casey
Your choice. You're locating the gages away from your IP so, in my opinion, a different style wouldn't clash. It may actually compliment. Form follows function, in my belief. Yours may vary.
So you think the 0-30 psi boost gauge will not be accurate with the readings?
Cool headliner! I was really tempted to purchase one of those when I still had my 81 C20 (which I now regret selling).
Casey
Thanks! I like it a lot! But I fear that in a few years I will need to sell it so I can do a full cage in the cab. Lol!
DmaxMaverick
02-05-2021, 19:51
So you think the 0-30 psi boost gauge will not be accurate with the readings?
Not that it won't be accurate, but that the resolution makes it difficult to view it accurately. At most, you may be using only about half of the range, which handicaps the resolution. Add to that, it will be more difficult at the location you are installing it. I have the same size boost and pyro gages in my 2001 installed about where you are installing yours, although more centered, and it is not a natural viewing location. They are mounted in a billet aluminum angled mount (Kennedy Diesel item) that fits the OEM knock-out where the older style DIC would be, if it had that. If you are far-sighted with bi/trifocal glasses (I am), or are very near-sighted and wear glasses or contacts, it is more of a challenge. Be sure to angle the gages toward your regular seated position to minimize glare and obstruction by the gage bezel edge, and a deeper bezel worsens it (one of those things you don't notice, until you do, and it gets annoying). Pillar-type mounts are about the best for gage viewing, but I don't like them. Many folks like them, though. With your setup, all your smaller gages being the same, perhaps think about moving less important analogs to the overhead? Your IP is about as sharp looking as I've seen, BTW.
phantom309
02-06-2021, 11:11
Nice build,.. i personally would have put on a better turbo than the GM8,...
Truck looks great.
Nice build,.. i personally would have put on a better turbo than the GM8,...
Truck looks great.
What would you have chosen for a turbo and why?
phantom309
02-18-2021, 09:35
The cummins style H (holset) turbos push more volume with less drive pressure resulting in a cooler running engine that can handle more power with less problems. You can change exhaust turbine housings on them and tune the turbo to your preference.
Read up on the different swapped turbo's the GM 8 has a small exhaust turbine and is very inefficient above 2600 rpm-ish
The latest and greatest is variable pitch turbo, its giving amazing performance and economy best of all worlds.
Nice gage selection, but you overshot the boost gage. You need a 15 - 20 PSI max range for the 6.5. I think you'll find the resolution will be way off at 30, which is more than double the potential, and 3 - 4 times your operating range. 30 PSI is more in the rage of late model Diesels.
Drill the bunghole for the pyro thermocouple in the collector manifold below the turbo, outward. It will sample temps from all cylinders there. Cold bit with NO lube or oil-type coolant (cast iron). Use a good anti-seize for the bushing, and don't overtighten it. If you will be installing it on an installed engine, drill/tap with the engine running at idle to clear the shavings (wear good eye/face protection!!!) An alternative thermocouple location is the downpipe or crossover (clamp-on type). They are easier to install, but less accurate and less immediate. Both would be ideal, being able to track turbo efficiency trends, but that ups the cost and complexity.
Well, you were right! The points on the boost gauge are bigger then the actual needle so it is difficult to actually determine what the boost really is. I’ll return these gauges and probably go with the Banks.
DmaxMaverick
02-22-2021, 12:43
I got the Isspro gages from Kennedy. VERY easy to read at a glance, mounted overhead. The Banks gages look about as nice, but I've only seen them in other's trucks on a pillar mount.
ToddMeister
02-24-2021, 09:25
I also like the ISSPro gauges, I have had them on my 1995 for a long time (18 years)
So with the motor installed. I see coolant temps get to 210-215 and oil gets up to 235. I installed a remote oil cooler and bypassed the radiator and see oil at 220.now.
I am also swapping a built 700r4 behind this 6.5 optimizer.
I installed a trans cooler in front of the radiator and temps dropped from 235 to 190 max. That’s good.
So far with a junkyard GM1 turbo with turbo master, I run about 600-700 degrees egts average. Highest at 800 degrees on 6% grade.
The max I got the turbo boost at is 12 psi by accident. Usually runs 6-9 psi.
Pictures of the finished Optimizer.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(12).HEIC (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/934fca24-aa7a-49e6-aa49-a37d58f17cc7)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(11).HEIC (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/f815728e-288d-4d6c-a3f8-c92c500f2034)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(10).HEIC (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/ba89b7cc-c41e-43fd-974c-cfeea0bfeabc)
Pictures of it installed.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(3).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/da59534d-faf6-491b-a892-f6d23ba7b987)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(2).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/7a6913cd-0638-49b9-b2c9-ec5600f8f685)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(1).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/53a83b20-592e-42e0-a696-b43bf15d15aa)
Pic of underneath with perfect fitment with ORD Motor Crossmember support.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(17).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/e59f06f6-0314-45f5-b5e9-4e1e47273ff5)
Pictures of the Diamond Eye Exhaust Crossover, 3” Modified downpipe to 4” with no muffler or cat. Heat wrapped areas around motor. Yes! Downpipe is between frame which has to be notched a little.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(15).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/2b5dee5f-1731-4b9b-83d8-4a2249bafbc1)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(14).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/247e3492-574d-449a-a952-31f8e7dfccdc)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(13).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/02990c39-d5ab-4077-b1ad-0f8120f6963a)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(12).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/7cd8895e-fdae-42d7-8e36-68f914a0f273)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(11).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/671fbecc-d34e-4f6e-854a-c57ac48e39bb)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(10).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/6d8a4bb3-6c1e-4a96-8fe4-094e3f4860ec)
Relocated coolant reserve to passenger top rear fender.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(24).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/ca8a4877-d58e-4216-8634-509406600179)
Relocated new battery trays with new batteries.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(23).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/ce813139-b34c-4c26-9274-ec3eb6ca21f7)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(22).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/beb177dc-826c-4459-8239-169de8467394)
Installed 7 blade fan from junkyard. Clockwise rotation.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(16).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/88fbd447-5b25-48c0-8d23-03d4ab868e8e)
Installed and wired up boost gauge and pyro gauge above top headliner.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(5).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/cdc44957-a1ae-45e1-a2bb-1172afb88f1c)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(6).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/a695014f-1bdd-4075-96cd-cbdd143eae94)
Successfully mated Summit Racing enclosed Airbox from Turbo to Snorkle.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(9).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/44aa4b6a-8556-4abd-9b83-7e2aeea97eca)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(8).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/c250a715-4776-4106-aa8f-042d46e8ed35)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(7).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/17270361-6bbb-4c64-910a-4cc4de60fb0d)
Purchased Trailworthyfab beadlocks and old new stock hummer spare tire Goodyear MTR 37/12.5/r16.5 tires from Ebay.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(1).jpg (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/b925c2d4-4067-4d2a-8512-1d24efa52f5d)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(18).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/f2e5ecf2-6058-4b07-b502-72788f510f76)
Mated with pvc insert and 10 oz of dynabeads each tire.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001.MOV (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/386f91d4-9b61-4f54-b9f1-13d5c166282e)
Went to the junkyard and pulled a transmission cooler and installed it.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(21).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/1b2a5650-288d-4104-94ef-23c0e329c25c)
More Power
11-10-2021, 12:04
Successfully mated Summit Racing enclosed Airbox from Turbo to Snorkle.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(9).JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/44aa4b6a-8556-4abd-9b83-7e2aeea97eca)
I like the tires/wheels! I passed up a set of H1 tires/wheels at a Washington state salvage yard some years ago. Always wished I'd bought them.
How did you solve the frame interference problem with the turbo exhaust exit? I have pictures of showing how others did it, either by constructing a downpipe that runs outside or inside the frame rail. Some creative pipe building was necessary. I think a Holset HX35 might make for an easier downpipe transition.
I like the tires/wheels! I passed up a set of H1 tires/wheels at a Washington state salvage yard some years ago. Always wished I'd bought them.
How did you solve the frame interference problem with the turbo exhaust exit? I have pictures of showing how others did it, either by constructing a downpipe that runs outside or inside the frame rail. Some creative pipe building was necessary. I think a Holset HX35 might make for an easier downpipe transition.
After researching for hours and hours… I came across this thread and copied post #8 solution with doing the downpipe. It was the cleanest install I’ve seen yet so I went for it and it worked very well. Here’s link. Post #8
https://www.dieselplace.com/threads/6-2-with-6-5-turbo-downpipe.830386/
Here’s Pic of the remote oil cooler under the blazer in the rear. It reduced my oil temp by 15 degrees. Pulling a long 6% grade, my oil temp went from 235 degrees to 220 degrees. I might add a dual oil cooler to reduce the oil temp even more.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(14).HEIC (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/fff3de29-d8ec-4e6f-9ec4-299d276ca703)
And here she stands tall with the beadlocks and tires on! It does vibrate some at the current top speed of 55mph. I will add more dynabeads and get an alignment done.
Yeah back then you would have scored big if you got that set of beadlocks. Nice to air down to 0-10 psi for that added traction and softer ride on the trails.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/001(15).HEIC (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/7a118ded-fe36-40d6-81e5-e1c85baddcb0)
I do have another new soft top but I am trying to get another year or 2 out of this old one. Had a tree fall on this one a few years back on the trails.
More Power
11-11-2021, 09:45
Still think an HX35 would make for a cleaner install and better performer - then, the downpipe would look a lot like that use with the Banks Sidewinder 6.2L turbo system when using the factory 6.5 manifold. I like that you were able to use the factory 6.5 exhaust manifold (not having factory A/C in your Blazer made it easier). The Banks exhaust manifolds are exceedingly hard to get these days. Jim
Still think an HX35 would make for a cleaner install and better performer - then, the downpipe would look a lot like that use with the Banks Sidewinder 6.2L turbo system when using the factory 6.5 manifold. I like that you were able to use the factory 6.5 exhaust manifold (not having factory A/C in your Blazer made it easier). The Banks exhaust manifolds are exceedingly hard to get these days. Jim
I called Banks early this year and they said they have less then a dozen Sidewinder Exhaust Manifolds left. I had 2 1/2 banks sidewinder kits on hand and 2x Hx35w’s. I decided not to do the banks or the hx35w and sold it all. To me, in my mind, it did not make sense to put a banks kit on because of hard to get parts availability. As for the HX35w i did not want that either because dyna testing showed that one would have to darn near redline to get decent boost levels. Right now I am extremely happy with the low rpm spooling of the GM1 turbo I have. I can easily get to 15 psi but choose to keep boost levels around 6-9 psi with the turbo master.
Bostic motors recently came out with a turbo kit for 6.5 motors.
More Power
11-11-2021, 15:00
According to the compressor flow maps, the GM series of turbochargers are limited in efficiency to about 2200-rpm with a pressure ratio of 2 (15-psi). Above that RPM, the boosted air temp requires an intercooler and the small turbine produces an increasing amount of exhaust backpressure (high EGTs).
Dyno testing the 6.5/HX35 & boost levels.... I'd love to see the actual data... What you're reporting isn't what we found.
https://www.thedieselpage.com/members/features/jerrysholsetc.htm
https://www.thedieselpage.com/members/features/tylernelson.htm
The GM series of turbos do a great job for what they were designed for... light-duty, low smoke, quick spool. In an off-road environment like what your Blazer looks to be built for, the GM turbo may be the best choice. Heavy towing and high power demand is where the GM turbos fall down. The single regret I had about our 6.5TD Power Project was not installing an HX40. That turbocharger would have allowed that particular engine to reach its full potential. Jim
According to the compressor flow maps, the GM series of turbochargers are limited in efficiency to about 2200-rpm with a pressure ratio of 2 (15-psi). Above that RPM, the boosted air temp requires an intercooler and the small turbine produces an increasing amount of exhaust backpressure (high EGTs).
Dyno testing the 6.5/HX35 & boost levels.... I'd love to see the actual data... What you're reporting isn't what we found.
https://www.thedieselpage.com/members/features/jerrysholsetc.htm
https://www.thedieselpage.com/members/features/tylernelson.htm
The GM series of turbos do a great job for what they were designed for... light-duty, low smoke, quick spool. In an off-road environment like what your Blazer looks to be built for, the GM turbo may be the best choice. Heavy towing and high power demand is where the GM turbos fall down. The single regret I had about our 6.5TD Power Project was not installing an HX40. That turbocharger would have allowed that particular engine to reach its full potential. Jim
It won’t let me see it. At what boost levels were your tests at when reaching maximum performance with the hx35w?
My buddy had the 6.5 with banks manifold and an hx35w and claimed that it was sluggish until 3000rpm and 20+ boost which pulled the head studs out of his block. His advice made me weary.
DmaxMaverick
11-11-2021, 22:51
Charge air pressure is just a number. There are a LOT of numbers. If you choose to account for only one, such as boost pressure, you'll have less performance and a lot more wear/tear. The GM turbos, as Jim said, have a specific job to do, and they do it well. Outside of that, and they are baggage. Higher intake air pressure is useless if the other side (exhaust back-pressure, for example) counters it. The engine is doing a lot of work, but it doesn't get to the flywheel. A lot of research has gone into turbo efficiency. Use it for what it is.
You must be a paid subscriber to access TDP articles. If you are serious about GM Diesel powertrains, it's the best investment you can make. Everything you're trying to do has been done, and that's where it is.
More Power
11-12-2021, 09:25
It won’t let me see it. At what boost levels were your tests at when reaching maximum performance with the hx35w?
My buddy had the 6.5 with banks manifold and an hx35w and claimed that it was sluggish until 3000rpm and 20+ boost which pulled the head studs out of his block. His advice made me weary.
TDP is where people come for solid, proven and reliable information... anything 6.2/6.5 related.
Here's an article that's available to everyone. It adds to the discussion about the 6.5 and 20+ lbs of boost pressure. No studs were pulled... Skip down to the part about Ron Schoolcraft's 1995 6.5TD K2500 Suburban. If I remember correctly he was using a modified HX40 or something similar.
TheDieselPage.com's July 2006 Pull-Off (https://www.thedieselpage.com/features/pulloff2006c.htm)
Peninsular Diesel produced performance marine 6.5 diesels for years.... all running with big turbos, big boost and 18:1 pistons. TDP published articles about them, and I/we visited their operation in Michigan. They always used the TTY factory head bolts. Not a single mention of pulled head bolts in all the years I talked to them...
TDP is where people come for solid, proven and reliable information... anything 6.2/6.5 related.
Here's an article that's available to everyone. It adds to the discussion about the 6.5 and 20+ lbs of boost pressure. No studs were pulled... Skip down to the part about Ron Schoolcraft's 1995 6.5TD K2500 Suburban. If I remember correctly he was using a modified HX40 or something similar.
TheDieselPage.com's July 2006 Pull-Off (https://www.thedieselpage.com/features/pulloff2006c.htm)
Peninsular Diesel produced performance marine 6.5 diesels for years.... all running with big turbos, big boost and 18:1 pistons. TDP published articles about them, and I/we visited their operation in Michigan. They always used the TTY factory head bolts. Not a single mention of pulled head bolts in all the years I talked to them...
Yes to my knowledge 18:1 pistons will drastically change the amount of boost levels and make it safe to run. Everyone I have talked to that has done an hx35w with stock pistons eventually killed their motor while daily driving it. Too costly to change pistons. I already got $10,000+ just into the motor so far.
More Power
11-15-2021, 08:33
Yes to my knowledge 18:1 pistons will drastically change the amount of boost levels and make it safe to run. Everyone I have talked to that has done an hx35w with stock pistons eventually killed their motor while daily driving it. Too costly to change pistons. I already got $10,000+ just into the motor so far.
"Everyone"? "Killed their motor with an HX35 while daily driving"? "Pulled the studs"? My BS detector is flashing...
Combustion pressure can be up to 3500-psi at full power. If the exhaust is clean, how can going from the stock 7-psi boost pressure produced by a GM turbo to an efficient 15-psi from an HX35 or even an efficient 20 from an HX40 hurt a 21.3 CR engine? By the way, I only advocate for 7-10-psi from the GM series of turbos, 15-psi from the HX35 - 20-psi from the HX40, all because of efficiency - cool boost and low backpressure. In gradation, anything over 7-psi boost pressure requires an intercooler and a performance exhaust system.
I'm putting a 1994 6.5TD Blazer back together right now that was a victim of too heavy a right foot while towing and an inefficient turbocharger for how this Blazer was being used - i.e. high EGTs due to a turbocharger with a too restrictive turbine/compressor (GM-4). The prior owner was also running a Turbomaster and a performance chip, and wasn't paying attention to the EGT/Boost gauges as the pistons melted around him.
Also, by the way... 18:1 pistons are only recommended for those who tow a lot or are running a boat. Not for daily drivers. 18:1 pistons allow people to add fuel and boost to make more power (build more combustion pressure), while giving the engine more heat rejection capability. The Diesel Page has discussed all this to exhaustion in years past. In the tens of thousands of 6.5 owners I've communicated with over the past 25 years, I've only heard of maybe 1 -2 examples of pulled threads in the block deck, and this was due to a rotten block or damaged threads, and it happened during a head installation - not from turbocharging.
Final by the way... Some years ago I attended a local diesel dyno event where Heath's 6.5 shop truck was there to spin the rollers. That 6.5TD powered 1995 truck was running (or so they said) 21.3 Cr pistons, a Turbomaster on a GM turbo, his custom programming, propane injection, nitrous injection, water/meth injection and the kitchen sink.... I've heard thousands of diesel pickups run at dyno events - from lots of stock trucks to 1000-horsepower super trucks. That 6.5 sounded way-way different - raspy and scary - I stepped way back..., but it made 300 rear wheel horsepower for the 1-2 seconds it had to. Then, they drove it back to Washington state after the event, or at least that's what they said they were going to do as they left the event. I reported all this right here in The Diesel Page at the time. That engine didn't pull the head studs or bolts, or whatever the engine was equipped with. That was certainly no daily driver, and I sure wouldn't want to tow a 10K trailer out of the Columbia river gorge on I-90 with it - with all that stuff switched on.
"Everyone"? "Killed their motor with an HX35 while daily driving"? "Pulled the studs"? My BS detector is flashing...
Combustion pressure can be up to 3500-psi at full power. If the exhaust is clean, how can going from the stock 7-psi boost pressure produced by a GM turbo to an efficient 15-psi from an HX35 or even an efficient 20 from an HX40 hurt a 21.3 CR engine? By the way, I only advocate for 7-10-psi from the GM series of turbos, 15-psi from the HX35 - 20-psi from the HX40, all because of efficiency - cool boost and low backpressure. In gradation, anything over 7-psi boost pressure requires an intercooler and a performance exhaust system.
I'm putting a 1994 6.5TD Blazer back together right now that was a victim of too heavy a right foot while towing and an inefficient turbocharger for how this Blazer was being used - i.e. high EGTs due to a turbocharger with a too restrictive turbine/compressor (GM-4). The prior owner was also running a Turbomaster and a performance chip, and wasn't paying attention to the EGT/Boost gauges as the pistons melted around him.
Also, by the way... 18:1 pistons are only recommended for those who tow a lot or are running a boat. Not for daily drivers. 18:1 pistons allow people to add fuel and boost to make more power (build more combustion pressure), while giving the engine more heat rejection capability. The Diesel Page has discussed all this to exhaustion in years past. In the tens of thousands of 6.5 owners I've communicated with over the past 25 years, I've only heard of maybe 1 -2 examples of pulled threads in the block deck, and this was due to a rotten block or damaged threads, and it happened during a head installation - not from turbocharging.
Final by the way... Some years ago I attended a local diesel dyno event where Heath's 6.5 shop truck was there to spin the rollers. That 6.5TD powered 1995 truck was running (or so they said) 21.3 Cr pistons, a Turbomaster on a GM turbo, his custom programming, propane injection, nitrous injection, water/meth injection and the kitchen sink.... I've heard thousands of diesel pickups run at dyno events - from lots of stock trucks to 1000-horsepower super trucks. That 6.5 sounded way-way different - raspy and scary - I stepped way back..., but it made 300 rear wheel horsepower for the 1-2 seconds it had to. Then, they drove it back to Washington state after the event, or at least that's what they said they were going to do as they left the event. I reported all this right here in The Diesel Page at the time. That engine didn't pull the head studs or bolts, or whatever the engine was equipped with. That was certainly no daily driver, and I sure wouldn't want to tow a 10K trailer out of the Columbia river gorge on I-90 with it - with all that stuff switched on.
“Everyone I’ve talked to” means just that. Not every hx35w 6.5 owner out there. Simply everyone I have talked to. I have not personally yet to find anyone that has driven their 6.5 with an hx35w that has not had problems while daily driving. If you go on YouTube, and search 6.5 hx35w swap and ask the poster years later if they still have it, their usual reply is they sold it because of too many problems or it blew up. Many individuals that I bought 6.2 and 6.5 parts off of, claimed the same thing about the hx35w.
I am not saying your information here on the diesel page is incorrect or misleading. The people I have talked to could have not had the proper upgrades to handle the hx35w and did things half assed. Currently, I am very happy with my GM1 turbo. It serves its purpose for my off road driving conditions and habits. I have most of the diesel page books and have used a lot of its advice which has helped a lot!
arveetek
11-17-2021, 06:51
In all my research, I have found the exact opposite - my findings have shown that the HX35 is one of the best, budget-friendly upgrades available for the 6.5L.
I am in the process of installing an HX35 on my 6.5L rebuild project. I will report back with findings when I am done.
Casey
More Power
11-17-2021, 10:15
“Everyone I’ve talked to” means just that. Not every hx35w 6.5 owner out there. Simply everyone I have talked to. I have not personally yet to find anyone that has driven their 6.5 with an hx35w that has not had problems while daily driving. If you go on YouTube, and search 6.5 hx35w swap and ask the poster years later if they still have it, their usual reply is they sold it because of too many problems or it blew up. Many individuals that I bought 6.2 and 6.5 parts off of, claimed the same thing about the hx35w.
I am not saying your information here on the diesel page is incorrect or misleading. The people I have talked to could have not had the proper upgrades to handle the hx35w and did things half assed. Currently, I am very happy with my GM1 turbo. It serves its purpose for my off road driving conditions and habits. I have most of the diesel page books and have used a lot of its advice which has helped a lot!
The problem in what you're presenting here is that a failure is blamed on the turbo, when it could very well be like the 6.5 I'm working on right now. The previous owner melted the pistons because of a performance program, a heavy load and not paying attention to the EGT. This engine had a GM-4 turbocharger. An HX35 would have helped the engine in that situation by moving more air - more efficient air/boost.
Too many people have too little knowledge of the 6.5, and then make some performance mod without knowing how that addition interacts with the powertrain. When a failure occurs, they place blame on the wrong cause - through ignorance.
One thing I noticed is that you haven't read the 6.5 thread I created a couple of months ago about my current 6.5 saga (I posted to that thread yesterday), nor have you read the 6.5 thread created by arveetek. They are interesting and valuable threads, but you haven't even looked at them. I suspect there are a lot of articles and forum threads here you haven't bothered to look at either. Nearly all of the work we do here is the result of documented testing, chassis dyno tests, loaded hill climbs (calibrated trailer weights, stopwatches and GPS data), documented engine builds showing exactly what is being used, and on and on and on... Real provable information... It appears unsubstantiated crap is more appealing...
The problem in what you're presenting here is that a failure is blamed on the turbo, when it could very well be like the 6.5 I'm working on right now. The previous owner melted the pistons because of a performance program, a heavy load and not paying attention to the EGT. This engine had a GM-4 turbocharger. An HX35 would have helped the engine in that situation by moving more air - more efficient air/boost.
Too many people have too little knowledge of the 6.5, and then make some performance mod without knowing how that addition interacts with the powertrain. When a failure occurs, they place blame on the wrong cause - through ignorance.
One thing I noticed is that you haven't read the 6.5 thread I created a couple of months ago about my current 6.5 saga (I posted to that thread yesterday), nor have you read the 6.5 thread created by arveetek. They are interesting and valuable threads, but you haven't even looked at them. I suspect there are a lot of articles and forum threads here you haven't bothered to look at either. Nearly all of the work we do here is the result of documented testing, chassis dyno tests, loaded hill climbs (calibrated trailer weights, stopwatches and GPS data), documented engine builds showing exactly what is being used, and on and on and on... Real provable information... It appears unsubstantiated crap is more appealing...
I have read your links you shared as soon as you post them! One thing I noticed that is lacking with those people’s builds that had problems with the Hx35w swap is they did not have an inner cooler. Do you think by adding an inner cooler with a gm turbo would render better performance to make it worth the upgrade of an inner cooler?
More Power
11-17-2021, 14:39
The GM turbos are best when run at 10-psi or below. At 10-psi, it is borderline whether an intercooler would justify the cost. It depends on what you're doing. If towing a lot, then perhaps yes. If just a daily driver, mostly unloaded, then no.
Things go upside down when inexperienced owners/drivers install a performance program/chip (or turn up the fuel-rate), push the GM factory turbo beyond 10-psi, then push it hard on the highway with a trailer - without an EGT gauge in play. A Holset HX35W set to produce 15-psi with an intercooler would likely save a good share of those engines, not be the cause of problems.
By the way, at the bottom of each forum thread is a list of every registered member who has read that thread. Your forum name isn't among those listed in the threads I mentioned.
The GM turbos are best when run at 10-psi or below. At 10-psi, it is borderline whether an intercooler would justify the cost. It depends on what you're doing. If towing a lot, then perhaps yes. If just a daily driver, mostly unloaded, then no.
Things go upside down when inexperienced owners/drivers install a performance program/chip (or turn up the fuel-rate), push the GM factory turbo beyond 10-psi, then push it hard on the highway with a trailer - without an EGT gauge in play. A Holset HX35W set to produce 15-psi with an intercooler would likely save a good share of those engines, not be the cause of problems.
By the way, at the bottom of each forum thread is a list of every registered member who has read that thread. Your forum name isn't among those listed in the threads I mentioned.
You are talking about threads outside of this thread? Lol! I thought you meant the threads you posted here. No I have not read them yet. I have been busy with doing a 700r4 swap. My th400 got toasted by this optimizer within a week after I got it going.
DmaxMaverick
11-17-2021, 18:34
....I have been busy with doing a 700r4 swap. My th400 got toasted by this optimizer within a week after I got it going.
Just read the bold parts.
Just read the bold parts.
LOL! I was waiting for someone to say something in that effect! Lol! The 700r4 I am putting in has already been rebuilt to handle the Optimizers HP and Torque. Right now, the shop has the np208 and they are building that up as well. Hope to be rolling again in about a month or so.
DmaxMaverick
11-17-2021, 19:19
I like the TH700R4. It's a good tranny, within its abilities. The 6.5TD is well above it's pay-grade, though. Getting it to live behind a N/A 6.2 requires some serious upgrades, and even then, it's sketchy. You can buy 4 TH400's for the cost of all the hard upgrades required of the 700.
I like the TH700R4. It's a good tranny, within its abilities. The 6.5TD is well above it's pay-grade, though. Getting it to live behind a N/A 6.2 requires some serious upgrades, and even then, it's sketchy. You can buy 4 TH400's for the cost of all the hard upgrades required of the 700.
I am feeling the financial pinch on my wazoo right now!
This article from the diesel page has helped a lot with my choice of the 700r4 swap and rebuild.
https://www.thedieselpage.com/article/lee700r4-1.htm
Scroll down this page till you see something like this image...
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6317&d=1637252415
Every forum thread here has a list of those who have read that thread. The above image is for this thread.
The 700's locking torque converter and .71 OD makes the vehicle a lot more fun on the highway. My 6.2L Banks turbo'ed 1982 GMC saw a 5-mpg increase when going from a 3-speed to a good 700R4. Jim
I use the mobile version and do not see those statistics. I also read a lot of threads not logged in.
What upgrades did you do to your 700r4 to handle that additional banks power? I figure if a built 700r4 can handle the 6.2 with a sidewinder turbo, would it be safe to say a built 700r4 can handle a 6.5 with a gm turbo?
Also did you start a thread of the 6.5 with melted pistons?
Also I am buying back a Holset hx35w and a 6.5 oil pump gear drive with tach sensor on top. Between the Holset hx35w and Made in China Hx35w, do you have a preference between the two?
More Power
11-18-2021, 13:29
I use the mobile version and do not see those statistics. I also read a lot of threads not logged in.
What upgrades did you do to your 700r4 to handle that additional banks power? I figure if a built 700r4 can handle the 6.2 with a sidewinder turbo, would it be safe to say a built 700r4 can handle a 6.5 with a gm turbo?
Also did you start a thread of the 6.5 with melted pistons?
Also I am buying back a Holset hx35w and a 6.5 oil pump gear drive with tach sensor on top. Between the Holset hx35w and Made in China Hx35w, do you have a preference between the two?
My Daughter's 6.5 Blazer Project: https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?46770-6-5L-Turbo-Diesel-Blazer-Project
Casey's 6.5 Project: https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?46753-The-ol-Tahoe-is-down-for-the-count-coolant-in-cylinder(s)
A local transmission friend of mine built the 700R4 for me - for that 1982 GMC. He made it operate (shift scheduling) via internal hydraulics instead of requiring any electrical control. He also built it along the lines of Dr. Lee's 700. That said, the 700 is still not the best choice for towing heavy, but it can be used to tow if you're a little cautious. We did a story quite some time ago about a 1987 Banks 6.2TD Chevy Suburban that towed a 36' triple axle Airstream all over the US. That Suburban was equipped with a TH700R4.
Most here know of my resistance to Chinese made/copied parts. Use em if that's all that's available, but get the genuine article if you can.
My Daughter's 6.5 Blazer Project: https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?46770-6-5L-Turbo-Diesel-Blazer-Project
Casey's 6.5 Project: https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?46753-The-ol-Tahoe-is-down-for-the-count-coolant-in-cylinder(s)
A local transmission friend of mine built the 700R4 for me - for that 1982 GMC. He made it operate (shift scheduling) via internal hydraulics instead of requiring any electrical control. He also built it along the lines of Dr. Lee's 700. That said, the 700 is still not the best choice for towing heavy, but it can be used to tow if you're a little cautious. We did a story quite some time ago about a 1987 Banks 6.2TD Chevy Suburban that towed a 36' triple axle Airstream all over the US. That Suburban was equipped with a TH700R4.
Most here know of my resistance to Chinese made/copied parts. Use em if that's all that's available, but get the genuine article if you can.
Just read your daughters build. I read and followed Casey’s thread awhile ago with his 97 build and hx35w. Great stuff! The Holset hx35w and other parts I sold are on their way back! Might try the hx35w after I read your dyna testing results you shared. I really do enjoy buying good old used parts and refurbishing them. It gives that satisfied feelings of zen and bliss while saving butt loads of money! Ditching the vacuum controlled th400 will allow the deletion of the vacuum system from the 6.5 optimizer which will allow for a 6.5 oil pump gear drive with the tach sensor on top to get a better signal to the Phantom 2 tach gauge in the dash.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/IMG_1504.HEIC (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/9f3e75a7-5a27-4a16-9dcd-a727c1635d98)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/IMG_1452.HEIC (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/1e218a2f-65f2-4241-9a82-76c8ff9c8ad4)
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/IMG_1502.HEIC (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/c19685e3-eea1-45d8-b92e-932ac079153e)
More Power
11-19-2021, 08:48
As mentioned before, the GM factory turbos do a really good job for those who don't tow much and run a mostly stock engine, and if the boost pressure is kept below 10-psi. An off-road 4x4 or grocery getter 6.5 would likely do best with a factory GM turbo. The Banks Sidewinder on a properly fueled 6.2L diesel, for example, would produce a max of about 10-psi. The Banks kit included an EGT gauge...
The Dodge 12-valve engines ran the factory calibrated HX35 with a max boost of about 15-psi. According to the compressor maps, the HX35 does well with a max of 15-psi (because of compressor/turbine efficiency) and an intercooler, which would work with a 21.3:1 CR 6.5 just fine along with some mild fueling mods (fuel-rate increase). An EGT and boost gauge are essential, along with the info on how to use them to protect the engine from excessive exhaust temperatures.
I plan to experiment with an HX35 on the Blazer's 6.5, maybe next year.
arveetek
11-19-2021, 12:52
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/IMG_1502.HEIC (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/c19685e3-eea1-45d8-b92e-932ac079153e)
That seems to be the same model of HX35 that I have! I wonder what the original application was? Perhaps an industrial engine? The stock Dodge/Cummins HX35's have two different mounting options for the wastegate: the first generation (1994-1998) have mounting bosses on the exhaust housing; the later generation (1998.5 - 2007) have mounting bosses on compressor housing. Yours and mine have neither. Yours appears to have a home-made waste gate of some sort. I ended up making a bracket to install a TurboMaster waste gate controller for mine. I'll upload some photos later after I get it all installed.
Casey
Reading about the 700R4 tranny.
I have personally destroyed several of these tranny's.
They are not too bad when used with moderate torque and HP light rigs like Astro vans, S10 pickups or S Blazers.
If a TH 400 went away...the 700R is not the answer.
A 700R is very small inside. The input shaft is splined into an aluminum drum.....
These little tranny's are/were never meant to handle any serious ooooomph....
A TH400 when built to even stock levels that were common with the 6.2 or the 454 gasser will tolerate a lot of abuse......
When I here about 700R and 6.5 in the same sentence....I have to chuckle...
Been there done that...swept up the mess several times.....
Just curious ???? What went away in your 400 box ???
That seems to be the same model of HX35 that I have! I wonder what the original application was? Perhaps an industrial engine? The stock Dodge/Cummins HX35's have two different mounting options for the wastegate: the first generation (1994-1998) have mounting bosses on the exhaust housing; the later generation (1998.5 - 2007) have mounting bosses on compressor housing. Yours and mine have neither. Yours appears to have a home-made waste gate of some sort. I ended up making a bracket to install a TurboMaster waste gate controller for mine. I'll upload some photos later after I get it all installed.
Casey
I bought this Hx35w from a fellow member. He had it on a 6.5 diesel. He had many 6.5 diesels and parts and got tired of all the problems with 6.5 diesels and he did a Cummins swap. I then sold it to Bostic Motors along with a bunch of other parts and then I just recently bought it back. Lol!
Would love to see your turbo master pics to get ideas. I have a turbo master and might be able to modify it to the hx35w if I decide to go that route. Still on the fence from all the horror stories.
Reading about the 700R4 tranny.
I have personally destroyed several of these tranny's.
They are not too bad when used with moderate torque and HP light rigs like Astro vans, S10 pickups or S Blazers.
If a TH 400 went away...the 700R is not the answer.
A 700R is very small inside. The input shaft is splined into an aluminum drum.....
These little tranny's are/were never meant to handle any serious ooooomph....
A TH400 when built to even stock levels that were common with the 6.2 or the 454 gasser will tolerate a lot of abuse......
When I here about 700R and 6.5 in the same sentence....I have to chuckle...
Been there done that...swept up the mess several times.....
Just curious ???? What went away in your 400 box ???
Should have done a 4L80E, I know… but I am still kinda young and do not mind wrenching. Perhaps will blow the 700r4 while still in warranty and get it upgraded cheap while they rebuild it free minus the exception of buying the upgraded parts.
A almost complete th400 with the torque converter. I kept the 208 adapter.
I got the 700r4/np208 in. Driveshafts did not need to be shortened or lengthened. I had the trans shop do the tv cable adjustment. He took it on a test drive and said it’s working great. When I drove it home from the trans shop, 8 miles away, I noticed the 2-3 shift is very long. Takes forever for the trans to shift from 2-3. I researched that this problem is caused by improper band adjustment during rebuild. I’ll call the trans shop on Monday and see what they want to do. I want to get harder shifts on all gears to avoid clutch wear.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/OptimizedM1009/IMG_2209.JPG (https://app.photobucket.com/u/OptimizedM1009/a/2421ddc7-6b1e-4f15-90c3-aeba52ffd105/p/2645f316-d8c4-4dd5-8a6b-bdf6d1c44e6e)
DmaxMaverick
12-11-2021, 10:39
A shift delay isn't a band issue. IIRC, the 2-3 shift isn't a band event (should be 2/4). It's a TV cable/valve, valve timing or governor issue. Most common is the WRONG governor or TV cable adjustment. If it's "slipping" into 3, it shouldn't be driven until corrected. If it has the Trans-Go kit installed (should have, if you want it to live), all shifts should be firm and decisive. There's only ONE way to adjust the TV cable. Anyone can do it if the procedure is followed, and it takes about a minute or two. If you don't know, get smart on it. Try that FIRST. If it requires further adjustment, something else is wrong. If the TV cable is incorrectly adjusted, you risk toasting the tranny in a hurry.
A shift delay isn't a band issue. IIRC, the 2-3 shift isn't a band event (should be 2/4). It's a TV cable/valve, valve timing or governor issue. Most common is the WRONG governor or TV cable adjustment. If it's "slipping" into 3, it shouldn't be driven until corrected. If it has the Trans-Go kit installed (should have, if you want it to live), all shifts should be firm and decisive. There's only ONE way to adjust the TV cable. Anyone can do it if the procedure is followed, and it takes about a minute or two. If you don't know, get smart on it. Try that FIRST. If it requires further adjustment, something else is wrong. If the TV cable is incorrectly adjusted, you risk toasting the tranny in a hurry.
So it feels like it shifts 4 times while starting out in 1st gear. Feels like it shifts twice when it is going from 2-3. It is possible what I am feeling is the lock up kicking on just before it shifts into 3 gear? This is a pre 86 700r4 and is not electronically controlled like the newer 700r4’s. The trans shop said it is doing its job well.
DmaxMaverick
12-13-2021, 10:52
It could be TCC engagement, depending on throttle input and load. If so, it's normal. The vast majority of heat generated in this tranny is from the torque converter. It's small, but the clutch is sufficient for the power range. The more time it spends locked up, the better. Heat is the killer. I have my 85 Blazer set up so it locks early in 2, and stays that way until speed is below about 12 MPH, or I manually disengage it (switched). The brake switch is also bypassed from the circuit, which allows for maximum compression braking (very handy for mountain driving). The tranny has lived for over 1/2 million miles, with not-so-much gentle use. It also has the 1st Gen Trans-go kit. Shifts are very firm (read: harsh) under heavy throttle, but zero slippage. It will bark 33" mudders in 3 gears at WOT.
Update:
3000+miles on the GM1/Optimizer/700r4 and still running great!
"The brake switch is also bypassed from the circuit, which allows for maximum compression braking (very handy for mountain driving)." So, you have to manually disengage the TCC with the switch at every stop?
"The brake switch is also bypassed from the circuit, which allows for maximum compression braking (very handy for mountain driving)." So, you have to manually disengage the TCC with the switch at every stop?
No. It has been modified so I do not have to worry about that. It is Hydraulically controlled. The TV cable does all the work. It has all the bells and whistles. 3-4 clutch pack, Corvette Servo, etc.
DmaxMaverick
05-30-2022, 12:00
"The brake switch is also bypassed from the circuit, which allows for maximum compression braking (very handy for mountain driving)." So, you have to manually disengage the TCC with the switch at every stop?
No. Below about 10-12 MPH (in high range), it unlocks. Interesting, the Allison tranny does nearly the same in T/H mode, although it won't lock or stay locked in 1st gear or below about 20 MPH.
No. Below about 10-12 MPH (in high range), it unlocks. Interesting, the Allison tranny does nearly the same in T/H mode, although it won't lock or stay locked in 1st gear or below about 20 MPH.
Got it. Thanks. Didn't know the trans. would do that.
Got it. Thanks. Didn't know the trans. would do that.
If remembered correctly, I believe the pre 1986 700R4 lockup is hydraulicly controlled. The 1986+ is electronically controlled.
Mine is a 1985 :-)
DmaxMaverick
05-31-2022, 19:06
If remembered correctly, I believe the pre 1986 700R4 lockup is hydraulicly controlled. The 1986+ is electronically controlled.
Mine is a 1985 :-)
They are all electrically controlled, but the earlier years would see the hydraulic circuit open at low speed. I've not researched or mod'd later than 86, so I don't know how they may behave. 1987.5 was a transition year, so that likely has something to do with it. I have heard of some of them staying locked all the way to stall, but never seen it for myself.
They are all electrically controlled, but the earlier years would see the hydraulic circuit open at low speed. I've not researched or mod'd later than 86, so I don't know how they may behave. 1987.5 was a transition year, so that likely has something to do with it. I have heard of some of them staying locked all the way to stall, but never seen it for myself.
There is no electronics at all on mine. I feel it lock up in 3rd gear. Has a cool grumble sound when it unlocks. So far loving it! Knock on wood…
DmaxMaverick
05-31-2022, 21:19
There is no electronics at all on mine. I feel it lock up in 3rd gear. Has a cool grumble sound when it unlocks. So far loving it! Knock on wood…
I didn't say electronics. It's electrical. It's there. None of them are not electric.
I didn't say electronics. It's electrical. It's there. None of them are not electric.
Ok. There is nothing “electrical” going to my 700r4. TV cable and linkage is all that is hooked up to it.
I did a whole write up about my 700r4. There are a lot of pictures! Hope this helps.
Post #5 Picture 8. The electrical plug is there to keep dirt out but nothing is hooked up.
https://www.steelsoldiers.com/threads/the-one-stop-700r4-swap-m1009.206236/
DmaxMaverick
06-01-2022, 06:43
You have a mod'd valve body and a TCC bypass plug. They didn't come that way from the factory.
6517
DmaxMaverick
06-01-2022, 12:42
If there's still a bit of confusion, we should defer to the originating engineer on the matter HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag).
You have a mod'd valve body and a TCC bypass plug. They didn't come that way from the factory.
6517
Not sure how it works exactly. I did not build it. All I did was uninstall, take it to a transmission shop, they built it up and I installed it. Much better option then a 4L80E I think…
If there's still a bit of confusion, we should defer to the originating engineer on the matter HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag).
OMG that video is hilarious! I did not understand a darn thing he said!
I finally got the made in China Hx35w turbo installed. I have 90 degree elbows ordered and on the way.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6750&d=1662747546
After doing some test runs, I did not like the sound and fact that it did not seem to boost well at lower RPMS. So I thought about doing some experimenting. I took off the compressor wheel and housing from the made in USA HX35W and swapped them with the made in China Hx35W. Wow! It made a huge difference in sound and lower rpm boost levels! Very satisfied! Currently searching for a billet wheel about the same size that is lighter weight and a 6 blade to give it even more faster spools and more sound. I also plan on turning up the fuel 1/8th of a turn because my egts are 175 degrees lower. At 2100 RPM 70 mph going up a 6% grade, I am currently sitting at a good 850 degree EGT.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6751&d=1662747590
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6752&d=1662747608
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6753&d=1662747638
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6754&d=1662747656
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6755&d=1662747674
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6756&d=1662747692
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6757&d=1662747722
Edit: The Made in China Hx35w turbine wheel is a 12 blade. The made in USA turbine wheel is a 12 blaze as well. My research shows that the 6 blade compressor wheel with a 10 blade turbine wheel will make the turbo spool even faster and sound louder. Food for thought.
a5150nut
09-09-2022, 18:14
I looked into Wicked Wheel but they couldn't provide any spec to back up their claims so I passed on it
I looked into Wicked Wheel but they couldn't provide any spec to back up their claims so I passed on it
If the billet wheel is lighter then the cast wheel, then I think the billet would be a better choice because they are claimed to be more durable.
DmaxMaverick
09-10-2022, 21:36
"Billet" is overrated, and not necessarily better. Just saying.
I agree with Maverick
"Billet" is a catch phrase that is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy over used...
It sounds really cool and special.
Simple terms.....a part that is machined from a solid piece of stock rather than a Casting, forging, or a few other methods of manufacture......
"Billet buttons for the outhouse door" Ahhhh...Hmmmmm .....A waste of time in far too many cases....BUT IT SOUNDS COOL...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwim4vGX24z6AhWkLEQIHVGKDQQQwqsBegQIAhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dcs yZt1aP17U&usg=AOvVaw1G4UziDW3pD7wJYY4iUh1-
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