Odd timing question

[Klymptof]

My 98 6.5TD was having intermittent issues of stalling, and after extensive research seemed like it might be the injection pump. Purchased a rebuilt one, began tearing the engine down and noticed there were no nuts holding the pump in place, that it was being held in place by the three bolts on the gear and the eight injection lines on the back, just resting on the studs.
Next, I went to unbolt the bolts from the gear through the oil fill tube, and the gear turned.
So, fearing the worst, I pulled the water pump plate (there is a special place in a hot pit for whoever engineered this mess), and found the bolt on the camshaft was loose, as in I could spin it with my fingers, and it can still be tightened.
My question is this: where do I go from here?

[Robyn]

Interesting ....

I would check the cam and gears for damage due to the bolts being loose. (Check the key in the cam as well as the keyway in the top sprocket)

If the parts are in good order I would clean the bolt holes with Brakleen to remove all oil residue and blow dry. (CAM RETAINER BOLT AND PUMP GEAR)

Install new bolts using BLUE Loctite..... (If bolts are in good order they may be fine)

Blue loctite is a MUST DO on these bolts....if a bolt drops out and goes through the gears/chain the carnage is major..... DO NOT USE RED.... Blue will allow easy removal but keep things where they belong...

Install the proper nuts on the IP to retain it to the front cover.

Get the engine started and clear any codes present.

Warm up the engine and see how things work.

If you get a timing code then its likely that the pump is off just enough that the electronics can't adjust the timing enough and the pump nuts loosened and the pump moved a bit ( 1/32"- 1/16" at a time) and then re-tighten the nuts and see what happens...

A Tech 2 scan tool is really the proper way to do the settings, and to get the TDC OFFSET proper (-1.5) is a good spot... but you can fudge things and once you get the pump back within the range that the ECM can adjust the timing to what it wants it will not complain

I have been around a lot of 6.5 but have never seen a pump left without the nuts.... and the gears loose.

Yessssss...the arrangement up front is a bit hinky...


JUST AN FYI

I would be sure to check the timing marks on the sprockets and be sure they are aligned correctly.

Also be sure the pump gear and the cam gear timing marks are correct too.

With as many things messed up a good snoop through is in order...

[Klymptof]

Thank you for the info. Will see about pulling the harmonic balancer and bottom cover off next and check those other items. May as well change the timing set while I am this far in since I have no clue as to if or when it was ever changed.

[Robyn]

Sounds good.

With the front end apart fully you can get a real good visual on the cam snout, the key and how things fit after being run loose.

Generally only a fresh chain is needed to get things snug again.

Look the sprockets over really good and if you don't see any odd wear (hooked teeth) I would drop in a fresh chain.

Be sure the gear and sprocket on the cam fit well and have not wobbled the cam snout or the gear/sprocket bores.

Be sure the key is good and the gears do not slop on the key.

Most important is that the key is not loose in the cam.

If the key shows wear on the part where the gear/sprocket fit DO PLACE THE KEY.

Another good idea is to replace the Crank position sensor while the cover is off.

These can stick in the bore and can be a bitch to get out and if they break....then the cover needs to come back off later.:(

Clean the sensor bore in the cover and make sure any buildup of crud is gone.... Grease the new sensor well before stuffing it back in....

I like never seaze myself.

When you get ready to reinstall the the cover...

Clean all the old silicone off the cover where it meets the pan.

DO NOT LOOSEN THE PAN ITSELF...ONLY REMOVE THE BOLTS THAT GO INTO THE COVER.

I like a gasket between the cover and the block.....Smear hi temp silicone on the cover and fit the gasket and align all holes, then allow silicone to cure.
DO NOT PILE THE SILICONE ON THE GASKET...JUST A THIN FILM TO GET IT STUCK GOOD...

Goop the front pan flange with the silicone 1/8" or a bit more and add a bit of a fillet to the covers where the pan/block/cover join...

Goop the block side of the cover gasket and then carefully worry it in and onto the dowel pins.

Use silicone on the gasket that seals the water pump back plate to the cover.

Make sure the plate does not have cavitation erosion on the pump impeller side.

If the plate is badly eroded it can spring a leak through into the timing cover...

Once the cover is on the dowels get a couple midline bolts snug to hold things.

Be sure to blue loctite the bolts that are inside the cover behind the gear/sprocket.

Install the 3 inner bolts and snug down.

Add the other bolts and the pan rail ones too and tighten the entire bunch.

Tighten from center up and down from side to side to get a nice even fit...

Replace the crank seal while the cover is off too.

[arveetek]

I purchased an '86 K10 one time with a freshly built 6.2L. It left me stranded one day, and it turned out that the bolt on the camshaft gear was not torqued properly. It caused the key to shear on the camshaft, so it stopped turning the injection pump. A new key with a properly torqued camshaft bolt and Blue Loctite fixed me up.

I've never seen an engine with no IP mounting bolts; that's weird for sure. I would think there would be resulting damage due to the IP moving around.....

Casey

[Robyn]

The studs were there he said...just the flange headed nuts were missing.

Between the studs, the pump being piloted into the cover and the fuel lines all snugged up the pump can stay fairly rigid in there.

[arveetek]

The studs were there he said...just the flange headed nuts were missing.

Between the studs, the pump being piloted into the cover and the fuel lines all snugged up the pump can stay fairly rigid in there.

I meant to say mounting nuts, not bolts, but it can still move around a bit, especially with the engine gears rotating it. Just seems to me that over time some damage would occur.

Casey

[Klymptof]

Closer inspection looks like there may be some wear on the IP gear teeth, but not 100% sure until I pull them out. Really hoping there is no damage to the camshaft or crankshaft. Will keep this post updated as I go. Thank you so much for all of the information thus far. It is unbelievably helpful.

[Robyn]

You betcha

[Klymptof]

Ok, timing set, crankshaft position sensor, and gaskets will be here Wednesday. Found that the pin on the cam gear sheared off of the pump gear but is still in the timing gear. I am going to hope that little wedge is replaceable and I dont need a new camshaft? Still learning, so be gentle.
*Edit* Ok, it looks like that wedge is the key you were talking about earlier. I cant seem to find one online though. Does anyone have a link or a part number for the correct one to use?
Also, found those missing IP nuts buried in the grime and grease under the pump along with 2 other nuts. No idea what they were for though.

[Robyn]

Hmmmmmm

I am assuming that you bought the rig used ????

The key should be available readily....

You need to get that broken piece of key out of the gear and away from it falling into the engine.

The key is what is called a WOODRUFF KEY and you should be able to use a small punch and a hammer to rotate the broken piece out of the cam shaft.

Pack rags around the area so that piece does not fall into the engine.

ACCOUNT FOR BOTH PIECES OF THAT KEY AND DISPOSE OF IT BEFORE YOU GO ANY FURTHER....

Little pieces have a nasty habit of ending up where they should not...... :eek:

Check the cam snout key way slot and be sure the key way is in good order.

CLEAN UP any burs or other roughness.

Install new key ....TAP IN WITH SMALL HAMMER (Brass is good)

[JohnC]

In case it wasn't clear, the same key drives both the cam gear and the pump. The section that drives the pump likely sheared off due to the pump moving around in its mount.

[Klymptof]

Yes, I bought the truck less than a year ago as a basic rig to get me to work and back, especially when it snows. The guy I bought it from got it from a relative and never drove it. Before then it was a farm truck, so I will let you imagine the mess that I am scraping off of the engine (the valley below the intake was filled up with oil, diesel, and dirt to where the valve cover seats on the block).
The local Chevy dealership said it is woodruff key #9, but no parts stores can seem to confirm it, so when I get the timing gears off, I am going to remove the existing ones and get them mic'd to get the exact size (will share what I find out).
The piece that broke off is still in the gear. John, I agree with your assessment. With the pump just riding on the studs, there was probably enough movement to cause the gear to bind slightly over and over until it finally sheared the key.
The wife really doesn't like when I joke with her saying I am roughly 12 bolts and four lines from just pulling the engine and doing a rebuild.

[Robyn]

The torque on the pump gear is not steady, but pulses as each plunger is operated, causing a very busy torque pattern.

If you can't find a key there is a real good chance that I may have a cam on the shelf with one in it.

Let me know and I can take a peek.

Takes only a short to tap the key out...

:):)

[Kennedy]

The torque on the pump gear is not steady, but pulses as each plunger is operated, causing a very busy torque pattern.

If you can't find a key there is a real good chance that I may have a cam on the shelf with one in it.

Let me know and I can take a peek.

Takes only a short to tap the key out...

:):)


That was my recommendation via phone. Find someone with a cam and key that could either spare the key or at least get the measurements from a known good dimensionally correct key.

[ronniejoe]

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/cam_key.jpg

It's an ANSI B17.2 #606 flat bottom key. 3/16 X 3/4.

Actual thickness is .1875 +.001/-.000
Actual width is .740 +.000/-.010
Actual height across flats is .303/.297

[Klymptof]

I dont know of anyone else with a 6.5, so had to do this the hard way. I got the old one out with a little persuasion and it measured out to 3/16" x 3/4". O'Reilly auto parts carried a Dorman Help #13125 for about $4.25 that had one in it. Got the key installed with a peice of wood and a mallet and some gentle tapping.
Timing set is on and now rotating the crank to put both timing Mark's at the 12 o'clock position before I put the second gear on the cam and install the cover. New crank position sensor is installed in cover as well. Add ingredients blue lockette to every bolt.

[DmaxMaverick]

Just a note on the bolt threads.....

Blue Loc-Tite can be used just about anywhere, and should be, IMO. However, the water pump bolts should be treated with anaerobic thread sealer (the bolt holes pass through to the water jacket). You can use RTV (silicone), but only if it's allowed a few days to fully cure before filling with fluids.

[Robyn]

Just to be sure we are all on the same page here.

A pair of factory timing diagrams

[Klymptof]

Was going off of the third post in this thread: https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/timing-a-6-5.12532/
That being said, the IP cam gear dot is at top, or 12 o'clock. The IP pump gear dot should align at 6 o'clock or 12 oclock?

[DmaxMaverick]

Was going off of the third post in this thread: https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/timing-a-6-5.12532/
That being said, the IP cam gear dot is at top, or 12 o'clock. The IP pump gear dot should align at 6 o'clock or 12 oclock?

The pump drive gear only goes on one way. When you try to set the pump drive gear wrong, the holes are gone. Line up the timing marks as Robyn's diagrams show, or follow the directions in the post you referenced. 6 one, half dozen the other. The first diagram shows the timing marks for setting cam timing. The reason for using the 12 O'clock (crank) and 6 O'clock (cam) is due to precision. If you use 12-12, you can be off by one tooth and may not see it, even when using a straight-edge (it's that close). The second diagram shows the pump drive gear timing. Set the crank-cam timing, rotate the crank 360, then set the pump driven gear timing (12-6, respectively).

[Klymptof]

Ok, that is how I had set it. Reassembling right now so will update when I get done.
Thank you again everyone for the help and patience.

[Klymptof]

Got everything reassembled with the exception of the intake. Cycled the key a few times to get the lift pump to prime the fuel filter until I started getting fuel from the hose coming off the t-handle bleeder valve. Cranked it over a few times and no fire. Batteries seemed a little weak although they read 12v when I hooked the charger up after. Going to let them charge overnight and try again in the morning.

[Robyn]

If air was allowed to enter the IP then it will take some cranking to get the air out of the system and the thing to have good fuel pressure at the injectors.

Did you remove the injector lines ???????


If you did remove them then the task can be daunting.

Best way to do this and save the batteries and starter is to yank out the glow plugs and spin the engine with zero compression until fuel blows out the glow plug holes.

Priming this way saves batteries, starter and patience.

Takes about 30 seconds of free spinning OR less and the beast will be blowing fuel mist out the glow plug holes.

Good luck

[Klymptof]

Yes, I had pulled all the injector lines so I could replace the valve cover gaskets since at least one of them was leaking. Have a few things to do today before I can get back to the truck, but will pull the glow plugs and let you know what happens.

[DmaxMaverick]

Yes, I had pulled all the injector lines so I could replace the valve cover gaskets since at least one of them was leaking. Have a few things to do today before I can get back to the truck, but will pull the glow plugs and let you know what happens.

While you still have things somewhat disassembled (less inconvenient), remove the VC gaskets you just replaced and toss them. Reseal the valve covers with RTV or The Right Stuff. Otherwise, they'll just leak again, likely sooner than later.

[Robyn]

There is a trick to getting the covers OIL TIGHT.

Clean off every spec of the old RTV and then clean the head and cover well with Brakcleen and a rag.

Maker sure the cover flanges are FLAT WITH NO HUMPS WHERE THE BOLTS GO AND PULL THE COVERS OUT ON THE INNER SURFACE.

Apply a good bead of RTV (HIGH TEMP...COLOR MAKES NO DIFFERENCE) GET RTV AROUND THE BOLTS WELL AND BE GENEROUS WITH THE RTV 1/4" THICK IS GREAT

CAREFULLY set the cover on on the head and get all the bolts in and just barely snug (Finger snug with a socket and extension only)

When the RTV mushes out a bit you are doing it right...

Allow the RTV TO CURE OVERNIGHT and then tighten the bolts snug with a very short wrench (1/4 drive ratchet)

BIG DEAL IS CLEAN HEAD FLANGE, CLEAN AND STRAIGHT COVER..

Enough RTV to allow the RTV to sort of mush out when the cover is set onto the head flange.

This technique will give you a good leak free seal that will last..


Now...with the fuel lines free of fuel and full of air...the only easy way to restart is as I mentioned earlier.

Cranking the engine with full compression just kills the batteries and the starter and takes a loooooooong time.

The glow plugs on the Drivers side are easy.

THE ONES ON THE PASSENGER SIDE can be accessed by removing the tire/wheel and going in over the frame through the access hole behind the rubber flap.

#8 is a bitch...just leave it and it will be fine.

As soon as you get most cylinders blowing fuel mist, just screw the plugs back in and it should fire up.

It will be a tad rough at first, but will smooth out quickly.

Have fun

[Klymptof]

I did not go back and redo the valve cover gaskets. Will worry about them when They become a problem again.
Pulled the glow plugs, cranked until fuel came from their ports, reinstalled, and it fired up. Yay!
Buttoned everything up, repaired the broken vacuum line coming off the wastegate, filled it with coolant, and took it for a short run. Everything seems fine except I cant hear the turbo whine anymore. Wondering if I should pull it out and have a look at it.
Thank you so much for the help and advice. Not sure how far I would have gotten without everyone's support, especially you, Robyn.

[Robyn]

You are very welcome...

This was a joint venture, and several folks helped.

Having been through several rebuilds on the 6.5 and having left a LOT of hide and blood along the way...hence a few of the little tricks emerged.

An FYI

While you had the Front wheel off and were looking in over the frame at the glow plugs..

Doing an R&R on the starter begins at this same point.

The wire connections and easy removal of the starter front support bracket all become sooooooooo much easier..

The rear glow plug access is still a tad nasty and is best if done from under the rig by reaching up around the down pipe.

Using some NEVER SEAZE on the glow plug threads and seat is a very good idea, especially if the rig is used in salt country.

Snapping off a glow plug is an ugly mess to deal with.

Glad all is well.

:):):)

[ronniejoe]

Everything seems fine except I cant hear the turbo whine anymore. Wondering if I should pull it out and have a look at it.

Check vacuum point output first. Remove vacuum harness at the wastegate actuator and check vacuum on the orange tube. Should be 22 in hg minimum. If nothing there, check at the back of the vacuum pump. Same spec. If nothing, replace the vacuum pump.

If vacuum is good reconnect the harness and check vacuum at turbocharger by removing the black tube from the wastegate actuator. Vacuum here will be regulated by the wastegate solenoid. At idle, it should be around 15 in hg or so. If you have nothing here, the solenoid is bad. Replace it.

If vacuum is making it to the turbocharger, the next thing is to remove the actuator and make sure it isn't stuck or bound up. Also, check the wastegate flapper valve. Make sure it will turn freely in its bore. These have been known to wear and bind before, although it is less likely with a 1998 than with the 1995 and earlier models.

[ronniejoe]

vacuum pump output...