sloppy steering

[gary_lucas]

So, all the front end is done. Had it aligned.

New ball joints, tie rods inner and outer, new idler arm + bracket.

I assumed the looseness in the steering would either be allot better or completely back to normal.

Sadly, that is not the case.

Was on the highway today and it's still floaty. When I had it aligned they said there was probably looseness in the gearbox and that the rest of the front end was completely tight (possibly tighter than normal).

Is the steering gear serviceable? I've heard bad things about rebuilds, any thoughts? I may do this sooner than I thought as I don't like the handling on the highway. Are there investigation steps I can do to rule out anything else? Presumably watch the input shaft and the output pitman arm. I'll take a peek this weekend. Right now it looks like I can rotate the wheel almost an inch left and right before seeing movement in the tires.

[DmaxMaverick]

The gear box is not (reasonably) serviceable. The pitman arm is just as suspect as all the other parts you replaced.

(engine off, in P, key out, E-brake, chocks, etc....)
Have someone "rock" the steering wheel while you inspect from the firewall to the new parts.

If there's no evidence of play in the steering, tires and/or wheels are suspect (front and/or rear).

[gary_lucas]

The gear box is not (reasonably) serviceable. The pitman arm is just as suspect as all the other parts you replaced.

(engine off, in P, key out, E-brake, chocks, etc....)
Have someone "rock" the steering wheel while you inspect from the firewall to the new parts.

If there's no evidence of play in the steering, tires and/or wheels are suspect (front and/or rear).

Thanks for the response! Much appreciated!

We did check out all of the components (and will again). The tires are new-ish... Look good and just got a full alignment... We do see a bit of play in the pitman arm, but it's barely noticeable. IE you have to stare at it for a few minutes while someone cranks the wheel to see it and then only barely.

Going to take a closer look this weekend and see if the steering wheel shows expected movement at the column where it mates with the steering gear. If so we know where the problem is... If not then we've isolated it further up the chain. Also, now that I've had it running for a decent while I'll recheck all the steering and suspension work we just did.

Was chatting with my neighbor about this, he's a retired mechanic (40+years of servicing logging camp machinery... IE pickups and bigger). He said there is an adjustment on the worm gear that can be made and offered to do it for me.

He said it can't hurt to try, worst case the steering gear is shot and i'm in for another one. (He's also got a nice discount at the local part store which I plan on leveraging if we have to replace the steering gear :) )



G

[EdHale]

Have you checked the intermediate steering shaft and bearing? I just had mine replaced for the 4th time since I bought the truck new. This was the 4th shaft and the first bearing change.

[a5150nut]

After I got my 94 it was in an accident and had it repaired at a dealer. They said it was all fine to go. Steering was still sloppy but they insisted it was within specs. It still tended to wonder going down the highway.

Took it to a Big O shop and they checked it. They gave me a print of what it was and what they set it to. Before it was barley within margins. They dialed it down to middle +/- a smidge. Handled great after that.

[gary_lucas]

Have you checked the intermediate steering shaft and bearing? I just had mine replaced for the 4th time since I bought the truck new. This was the 4th shaft and the first bearing change.

That's something else to check, thanks for chiming in.





After I got my 94 it was in an accident and had it repaired at a dealer. They said it was all fine to go. Steering was still sloppy but they insisted it was within specs. It still tended to wonder going down the highway.

Took it to a Big O shop and they checked it. They gave me a print of what it was and what they set it to. Before it was barley within margins. They dialed it down to middle +/- a smidge. Handled great after that.

It did this kind of wandering before I did all the work and I've since replaced everything and brought it in for an alignment. It's possible they screwed up but seems unlikely given how the handling of the truck hasn't much changed from how it was originally.

Funny story: My wife complained about the flaky steering awhile back but I blew it off as I was driving it regularly... Then we went without driving it at all for awhile. When I got back to it I was like 'woah, what's going on here' told my wife and she responded: "Uh, yah, that's what I told you months ago"

[gary_lucas]

We tightened the adjustment on the steering gear a tiny bit, it's definitely improved. Still wanders a tiny bit, when I bring it back to the alignment shop for followup I'll get them to give it a quick test again.

In any case the wander is mostly gone, back to 'good enough', neighbor suggested a tiny adjustment and drive it for a month, apparently it's really easy to destroy the gears with too much adjustment.

The play was definitely primarily in the steering box, there's no question about that at this stage. There might be a miniscule amount of play in the pitman arm... But small enough you'd have to look for 5 minutes to see it.

With any luck I can hold off doing any further steering work for the next year or so. If the steering gear goes south again or it gets sloppy it'll just be a replacement.


Have you checked the intermediate steering shaft and bearing? I just had mine replaced for the 4th time since I bought the truck new. This was the 4th shaft and the first bearing change.

This was an interesting point, I don't think it's causing sloppy steering but there is a clunk coming from the console when I hit a bump etc. It's been there since I got the truck so I never thought much about it. I figured out that it's the intermediate steering shaft and bearing. So thanks for that!

[Kennedy]

The pitman and idler arms take the same loads and are tied to the same rigid drag link. How one could think that one is bad but not the other is beyond me.

If you want the front end to be tight I'd add these: http://www.kennedydiesel.com/detail.cfm?ID=340

But before I'd do it I would do the pitman so it is fresh. Often you might find the steering to be initially a bit stiff even.

[rapidoxidationman]

The pitman and idler are tied to the same rod, but the pitman certainly endures a way higher load than the idler arm. All the idler has to do is keep things in line. The pitman arm has to push the steering around, in addition to transmitting feedback to the steering wheel. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the pitman arm gets hit with everything coming and going. The idler arm just idles.

In any case, if you're able to see play in the pitman arm then it's time to change it out.

[gary_lucas]

Yah, I'm not sure what to say.

There's literally no obvious play in the pitman arm, there was with the Idler.

I'm still going to swap it out, just in the fall. At this stage i've spent about as much as I can swing on it and I definitely need to address the leaking power steering fluid (as far as I can tell that's coming from the power steering pump). When I say leak I mean the return line is slightly dirty and damp, it's not pissing out or anything. I haven't seen low power steering fluid.

I'll pull it apart in the fall and address it all and throw on the cognito braces.

I appreciate everyones input and will re-check the pitman again this weekend!



G

[Kennedy]

Yes the pitman arm does the work, and takes the main load of steering, but there is another factor. The twisting thrust load.

The drag link is offset _____--------------------_____

This offset causes input from the wheels/tie rods to put a twisting force on the drag link. This is particularly obvious in 4x4 (truck pulling) where the front tires try to toe in under power. To test this with both wheels off the ground take a pipe wrench and grab the drag link and attempt to rotate it. As you rotate it (which it should NOT) you'll see the toe changes quite dramatically.

The other test is to jack just the RF wheel off the ground and grab the wheel at 3 and 9 and try to steer it.

In Gary's case because the pitman was replaced all may seem tight as it is difficult to reproduce road forces, but trust me, the PISK that I linked above will make the steering MUCH more precise and hold toe more consistent.



Both arms attach to the same rigid drag link. Replacing one will give you the sense that the other is OK when it is not

[rapidoxidationman]

Thanks for the education:)
The more you know...

[EdHale]

Yah, I'm not sure what to say.

There's literally no obvious play in the pitman arm, there was with the Idler.

I'm still going to swap it out, just in the fall. At this stage i've spent about as much as I can swing on it and I definitely need to address the leaking power steering fluid (as far as I can tell that's coming from the power steering pump). When I say leak I mean the return line is slightly dirty and damp, it's not pissing out or anything. I haven't seen low power steering fluid.

I'll pull it apart in the fall and address it all and throw on the cognito braces.

I appreciate everyones input and will re-check the pitman again this weekend!



G

I just had a leaking hydraulic hose replaced from the power steering pump to the brake booster. Both were leaking just enough to cause a dirty/damp look around the leak, but the damp was getting damper. That booster is expensive!

[gary_lucas]

Interesting, I'll test that (Pipe Wrench) out in the next week or so. Certainly before putting the 5th wheel on.

I'm really trying to hold off on more expenditures at this stage. I've poured almost 10k into this truck between the head gaskets, brakes, front end work fluids etc. That includes buying all the tools (until recently I lived in a condo... working on my own vehicles has been a no go for a long time now).

In an ideal world I'd like to soak up a few months of usefulness before hammering another pile of cash into the problems. I'm suspecting that given my other issues my steering gear is on the way out as well + when I do that I'd want to do at least some of my power steering lines. So I'm hoping to wait until the fall or next spring for those items. Given that the cognito kit is a bolt on I could do that in the fall.

It seems to me that I really want to avoid cracking that area (Pitman, gear, PS components) etc until I'm comfortable doing them all...

G


Yes the pitman arm does the work, and takes the main load of steering, but there is another factor. The twisting thrust load.

The drag link is offset _____--------------------_____

This offset causes input from the wheels/tie rods to put a twisting force on the drag link. This is particularly obvious in 4x4 (truck pulling) where the front tires try to toe in under power. To test this with both wheels off the ground take a pipe wrench and grab the drag link and attempt to rotate it. As you rotate it (which it should NOT) you'll see the toe changes quite dramatically.

The other test is to jack just the RF wheel off the ground and grab the wheel at 3 and 9 and try to steer it.

In Gary's case because the pitman was replaced all may seem tight as it is difficult to reproduce road forces, but trust me, the PISK that I linked above will make the steering MUCH more precise and hold toe more consistent.



Both arms attach to the same rigid drag link. Replacing one will give you the sense that the other is OK when it is not

[Kennedy]

With a fresh idler arm I doubt you will see much as any one of these joints in fresh condition resists rotation pretty well. Put a few miles on and it will loosen up especially with a partly worn pitman on the other end.

[gary_lucas]

From what Iv'e read / researched it's not easy to get the pitman arm on / off without removing the steering gear. So even if I wanted to do it now I'd be in for a 'big' job. Or is something that's really not that big of a deal, I also don't know if my gear is a 3 spline or 4 spline which is a PITA as it means I need to do a bunch of work just to find out.

[gary_lucas]

So took it out with the trailer. There's still some slop in the steering, about 1/2 as much as there was previously.

I'm probably going to do the pitman arm next. My main frustration is I'm pretty sure the steering gear needs replacement and ideally I'd like to do them both at the same time...

Need to do some research, if I'm going to replace the steering gear I want to make sure the unit I replace it with is better than the one being replaced. I assume I can confirm that on a bench.

Do people just put up with slop? or is it something that can be fixed and stay fixed? IE with the support braces?

[Big Green]

alignment can affect steering with a load significantly. Talk to your shop.

I had mine aligned and it drove great until I put a trailer behind it. Then it was a 2 handed job to keep on the road at 65mph. The back of the truck lower under load had a big affect on caster ( I think) and if it's near the limit they can get hard to drive.

Big Green

[Kennedy]

So took it out with the trailer. There's still some slop in the steering, about 1/2 as much as there was previously.

I'm probably going to do the pitman arm next. My main frustration is I'm pretty sure the steering gear needs replacement and ideally I'd like to do them both at the same time...

Need to do some research, if I'm going to replace the steering gear I want to make sure the unit I replace it with is better than the one being replaced. I assume I can confirm that on a bench.

Do people just put up with slop? or is it something that can be fixed and stay fixed? IE with the support braces?


In my experience, the steering slop is pretty much non existent with fresh pitman and idlers plus the braces. I stick with OE joints for these.

[gary_lucas]

Got in there today.

The pitman had a bit of wear on it, but not bad.

I put my hand on the steering shaft input to the steering gear.

Other hand on the pitman arm... Had someone rock the wheel. Like this: https://goo.gl/photos/MT6CgC6eS37ewMqy8

No movement felt at the pitman arm. I think the steering gear is cooked, bought a rebuild... Put it back together... Stripped the hydroboost -> steering gear bolt... (Swore allot...)... Bought a new power steering line...

Installed it, was much... Much more carefull with the other line and got it in...

Couldn't tighten up the pitman arm... Got it just enough that I could get it out of the garage...

Realized that I am retarded while cleaning up and that I just needed channel-locks on the bottom of the stud (facepalm)...

Will fix that up tomorow. Not sure if the steering is tight yet...

I have the cognito kit and will install that soonish, the day was so long I gave up on it for today.

Wish me luck!

[DieselDavy]

This has been very helpful Gary. Thanks so much keeping us in the loop.
I liked the video attachment. When and if you get it all dialed in, it would be great if you could do a walk around video showing all of the parts changed/involved with this process for those of us less educated in the ways of the steering system!
Thanks again,
Dave

[gary_lucas]

This has been very helpful Gary. Thanks so much keeping us in the loop.
I liked the video attachment. When and if you get it all dialed in, it would be great if you could do a walk around video showing all of the parts changed/involved with this process for those of us less educated in the ways of the steering system!
Thanks again,
Dave

I'd love to do that, my fear is I'm not actually super competent and I'd hate to spread incorrect knowledge around.

As it stands right now I've got the steering gear in, have flushed the fluid... All the mechanisms appear to be correct. But I'm still worried that I screwed something up along the way. In the spring before we head out with the trailer again i'll probably take all the shielding off again and put a video together showing me checking the torque on all the components. I definitely want to take another look at the pitman / idler. I think the power steering system is a bit of a closed system and it's working or it isn't. A good time to check for leaks too.