P400 advice

[troopie]

G'day folks.

First of all, my new donk was marketed to me as a 'P400 HO Cobra'. Is there any difference to a regular P400 or is it just marketing hype?

[troopie]

To clear things up a bit I should say I was told the engine was supplied by US Engine Production. At the time I checked their site and they had the 'P400 HO Cobra' advertised (albeit with very little info) . I checked again today and now they do not. Has anyone had dealings with this company?

I now assume they have built the engine them selves and marketed their version as the 'HO Cobra'. I was told from my Aussie supplier that it was exported by USEP but made by AMG and so I naively assumed that the HO Cobra version was completely made by AMG.

After reading this thread: After market heads (http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=30359)
I'm starting to get a bit worried. Is anyone making/selling Chinese P400 copies? Could my donk be built on a Chinese block? Not that I'm having any trouble with it yet but I need to know what I've got.

Looks like I may need to get onto USEP and ask some questions.

[convert2diesel]

To clear things up a bit I should say I was told the engine was supplied by US Engine Production. At the time I checked their site and they had the 'P400 HO Cobra' advertised (albeit with very little info) . I checked again today and now they do not. Has anyone had dealings with this company?

I now assume they have built the engine them selves and marketed their version as the 'HO Cobra'. I was told from my Aussie supplier that it was exported by USEP but made by AMG and so I naively assumed that the HO Cobra version was completely made by AMG.

After reading this thread: After market heads (http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=30359)
I'm starting to get a bit worried. Is anyone making/selling Chinese P400 copies? Could my donk be built on a Chinese block? Not that I'm having any trouble with it yet but I need to know what I've got.

Looks like I may need to get onto USEP and ask some questions.

The "P400" is a proprietary engine manufactured by Peninsular Diesel, using the AMG 6500 as the base. Suggest you contact them to see if you have some how acquired a mutt engine. This engine was developed as a joint venture between AMG and Peninsular.

http://www.peninsulardiesel.com/WP-PENTEST/

There are a bunch of bits, over and above the lower base plate, specific to this engine that make it special. Unsure if the long block is available to up-fitters but if they use the P400 designation I would assume that they are dealing directly with Peninsular. Otherwise there would be patent infringement issues that Peninsular would be really interested in.

Really interested in the Blower mod. Is this only available in AUS or is the manufacturer here in North America?

Good luck on your project.

Bill

[troopie]

Hmmm... the plot thickens, thanks for the info. Now I really gotta do some digging..

I checked out that link, strange they don't mention the P400 on their website. Things just don't add up. My block has 'P400 cast into it at the back and I've been lead to believe there are differences in the design of the casting itself and/or the material used as it's supposed to have a higher output than the optimizer (could be 'bs' though). Some of this info I've garnered off this site but maybe I've just read too many threads and have become confused.

If Peninsular Diesel are building donks using a standard AMG block then why would AMG change their cast to have the 'P400' on it?

If it's not a standard block then why would AMG who's designed and cast it need little old Peninsular Diesel to build it for them, for vehicles that AMG produces (HMMWV's)? If it's not for the HMMWV's why would AMG go to that much trouble for a company that's going to sell the odd donk to enthusiasts? How big is PD? Why aren't they spruiking that they build engines for AMG?

Having said that, AMG have no mention of the P400 on their website either!?

What engines are currently fitted to HMMWV's? Optimizer or P400? I thought the P400 was the 'gold standard' developed because of the increasing weight of HMMWV's? Or am I confusing it for the Optimizer?

So many questions! :eek:

Maybe I'll just stand back and take a deep breath.
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Someone from this site bought one when they first came out, seen it in your book reviews. Does anyone know who they bought it off? Is said member still active? Has anyone else on this site bought one?

Oops more questions. Lets try that again.

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I'll drop the blower off on the weekend and get pics of the numbers and valley (I've never checked for the Navistar logo as I only learnt of that the other day). I also have an 'engine number' that was assumably stamped by the builder. I'll talk to USEP, PD and AMG; the real builder should recognise the number.


Anyway, sorry Bill if I sound scepitcal, no offense intended, I really appreciate your input as it has given me another lead; It's just that it don't feel right.

So the blower kit is only from Oz. It's offered by Bullet cars in Queensland:

http://bulletcars.com/superchargers/chevrolet/chev-6.5-litre-diesel-supercharger-system.html

It's Eaton's roots style twin vortices:

http://www.eaton.in/EatonIN/ProductsServices/Vehicle/ProductsServices/Superchargers/index.htm

in a Harrop body:

https://www.harrop.com.au/shop/automotive-performance/superchargers/supercharger-units/htv2300-supercharger

with the snout and adaptor plate made my Bullet.

Be careful though, although I love the kit, I can't recommend them yet. I also got the donk from them and the guy I dealt with was very difficult. He was associated with 'Bullet Diesel', a now defunct division of the company that were doing 6.5 conversions into Aussie cars (I did my own fitment).

While I think from the quality of the blower kit the design and development team are the real deal, this suspect salesman unfortunately casts doubt on the whole company. We'll see what the results of my investigation yield in regards to honesty. ;)

[More Power]

Does your engine have the large cast-iron block girdle? Is the crank forged steel?

[convert2diesel]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but GEP (AMG's engine division) only produces the Optimizer 6500 in a NA version (190 HP) and a Turbo version (205 HP). That engine serves as a base but they do work with up-fitters like Peninsular for specific engines. Peninsular is not, as you put it, "little ole Peninsular Diesel". They have been working with GM and subsequently AMG since about 1963.

Their main focus has been marine engines and were the first to marinize (is that a word?) the 6.2. It became immediately obvious that the 6.5 could use a little tweaking for the truck crowd and Peninsular has been supplying the aftermarket with good solid product for this application for 20 some odd years.

After AMG took over the 6.5 from GM around the turn of the century, they did a reset on the design, using IH to cast the blocks and correcting the issues inherent in the original design. What Peninsular did was to work with AMG/GEP to develop high performance versions of the Optimizer. The P400 was a direct result of this development. Using the AMG 6500 block and adding the baseplate, corrected about 90% of the issues related to the original design (main web cracking). Add a forged crank and high performance heads and reliable 300 hp (or more) is a given.

There are a number of certified AMG partners out there, of which Peninsular is one of them. Ergo your US Engine Production source. Unfortunately, there are numerous hacks out there claiming to be partners but in reality they may well be getting bootlegged product out of Asia. We have seen a bunch on this site. Even more so on Ebay. They come and go at random. Peninsular/AMG should be notified if someone is hacking their design without their permission.

You will find mention of the P400 in the truck section of Peninsular's website but very little specific info about the P400. Their website needs a little work and or updating. They are good about returning emails though, so I would suggest you send them one asking about their affiliation with US Engine Production and the actual specs of this engine. Actually, I wonder why they warn against using this engine in a marine application?

The intake manifold for the blower is interesting, if they sell it separately, as I have a bunch of blowers hanging around. Never could figure out how to do a blown 6.5 due to the space limitations. Seen a few 6.2s with Whipples on them, but that goes back a few years. Obviously not a popular item after Banks and GM started installing turbos on the engine.

Good luck in your quest.

Bill

[trbankii]

Pretty much what c2d is saying…

But to add to that, check out Penninsular’s “About” page: http://www.peninsulardiesel.com/WP-PENTEST/?page_id=2

And their Worldwide Dealers page: http://www.peninsulardiesel.com/WP-PENTEST/?page_id=704/

That should pretty much put to rest the “little ole” part - they’re definitely a major player. They’d be best equipped to tell you whether the engine you have is legitimate or not.

[More Power]

"P400" is an AM General engine designation. The engine was designed as an updated 250-hp version for their HMMWV market.

As a HMMWV engine, it came with a robust block girdle with cast-in main caps, updated cylinder heads and an extended capacity cast aluminum oil pan - among lots of other smaller but significant changes.

To work in a pickup truck, the oil pan had to be replaced with one that fit the truck/Suburban chassis. This is the version sold by Peninsular. We actually helped them design an oil pan that worked for the on-road market. Read more here: http://www.thedieselpage.com/features/AMGsnew65.htm

As was mentioned, the knock-off crowd has been busy bees trying to capitalize on the success of others by selling cheap copies.

[troopie]

Sorry folks; the 'little ole' PD remark was tongue in cheek. I don't know them from a bar of soap really, but from what I've read they are not in the same league as International, Navistar and AMG.


"P400" is an AM General engine designation. The engine was designed as an updated 250-hp version for their HMMWV market.

As a HMMWV engine, it came with a robust block girdle with cast-in main caps, updated cylinder heads and an extended capacity cast aluminum oil pan - among lots of other smaller but significant changes.

To work in a pickup truck, the oil pan had to be replaced with one that fit the truck/Suburban chassis. This is the version sold by Peninsular. We actually helped them design an oil pan that worked for the on-road market. Read more here: http://www.thedieselpage.com/features/AMGsnew65.htm

As was mentioned, the knock-off crowd has been busy bees trying to capitalize on the success of others by selling cheap copies. Thanks for setting that straight 'More Power'. I'd already read that article amongst others. That's why the PD angle didn't quite add up.

I have the cast block girdle and was told It has the forged crank but did not open it up to check as I had no reason to be suspect. That's part of the reason I'd like to get in touch with the builder so I can get full specs of what's inside the beast, as well as the real potential and safe max power outputs.

I intend to see her realize her full potential but don't want to kill her either!

Also of interest is that my donk was exported with the full-sized alloy sump. Bullet had it modified to fit my 4x4. Basically they just cut out the offending section and welded plate over the gap. This is also a niggling concern and question I wanted to ask: The sump takes about 6.5L (no pun intended :)) of oil to hit the full mark on the dipstick (I don't know what unit youse use to measure oil :o but by my converter that is 1.7 galUS or 396 in3). Is that enough? Is there any negative side effects to having less oil in reserve? I have a good PWR oil cooler fitted (280x189x37mm (11"x7"x1.5")) with 3.5 meters (11') of oil line total. Will the long lines be good (for extra heat dispersion) or bad (in regards to being extra load/friction/resistance to the oil circuit) do youse think?


The intake manifold for the blower is interesting, if they sell it separately@c2d: The manifolds pictured on the Bullet websites are different to mine. I got the HTV2300 unit over the HTV1900 unit they usually offer; this may be the reason for the difference? My manifold has a ~1/2" thick adaptor plate between it and the blower.

I'm quite sure they'd sell parts individually. If the results of my investigation are positive I'd be happy to talk to them for ya. I know the time difference and cost can be a bastard!

When I ordered the donk the afore mentioned salesman said they were close to releasing an intercooled manifold :). However later in the piece when I managed to speak to someone else there they said they hadn't even put pen to paper :(

So is their any tangible evidence of imported (specifically P400 (not L56, L65, Optimizer etc.)) blocks?

[convert2diesel]

"P400" is an AM General engine designation. The engine was designed as an updated 250-hp version for their HMMWV market.

As was mentioned, the knock-off crowd has been busy bees trying to capitalize on the success of others by selling cheap copies.

I stand corrected.

Strange they (GEP) don't talk about the P400 on their website or possibly they have another designation for it. Good to finally clarify this point as it has been discussed before. As PD was the first to really market the P400, I assumed that it was a joint venture.

Sorry for the miss-direction. Will now go outside and fix something on the Smartcar as punishment.

Bill