Starter bolts - to use a washer or not? Help please!

[JKlein]

I am going to replace the dead starter on my 6.5 this coming weekend so I looked it over this past weekend. I noticed that the last person used two thick washers with the starter bolts.

I did buy new AC Delco starter bolts and they did not come with washers. My questions is should I install with the washers or are the bolts by themselves enough?

i also saw there was no front starter bracket - so I have that as well to install with the new PowerMaster Starter I purchased.

Any advice and or tips is also appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

~GOD BLESS~

john

[DmaxMaverick]

NO washers. Bare bolts only. If the bolts don't fit, as is, you have the wrong bolts, wrong starter, or the block is damaged (or oddly repaired). Definitely install the bracket.

[JKlein]

I did not think the washers would be correct as they are thick and I would loose about two to possibly three threads going into the block.

I do have the bracket and will be installing that along with the new bolts I bought from the dealership.

Thanks for the input. I appreciate the help.

~GOD BLESS~

john

[john8662]

Actually, the washers are factory. The thick washers are what you want on there.

There are two GM Bolt designs. One with the integrated washer head (larger bolt head), and another that just has the hex head no integrated washer.

If you're using the ones w/o the bigger head, you want the washer. This helps the bolt to not dig into the soft aluminum housing, and provides for a better clamping area.

You want the thick washer. it's metric too, btw.

John

[Dvldog8793]

Howdy
If you have problems locating the proper washers...I have used a GR8 SAE washer that fit snug around the bolt.
If the bolts do not have a washer head or flanged head then the washers are a must as the bolt head will chew into the starter.
Make sure that your bolts are the correct ones and have a good amount of thread engaged. I have had parts guys just give me the "standard GM" starter bolt and it was too short.
Something that I do is put a 6inch pig tail with a bullet connector on the ignition wire. It makes it easier to get the starter hooked up and in place. connect up all the wires through the passenger side wheel well.
Remember to re-torque
Hope this helps.

[JKlein]

I did make sure I had the correct part number for the starter bolts when I picked them up. They also have the correct knurled area on the bolt prior to the treads starting.

Am I correct that when I pull the old started bolts out that I should place them side by side, measure and make sure they are the same length - and if so then I am OK to install with the washers?

As for the comment about re-tourque ... that would be after a few starts check the tourque setting of the starter mounting bolts to be sure they have not loosened? Is that correct?

Thanks for the help. I appreciate the tip about adding length to the ignition wire to help get things hooked up. Any other tips would be appreciated.

Thank you everyone. Much appreciated. I like to be as prepared as possible going into the project.

I have been wrenching for over 30 years, however, only about 4 years on diesels and this is my first starter change on the 6.5 motor. Much more planned to do once I can get it started again.

~GOD BLESS~

john

[Aftermath]

Before you go to tighten starter bolts, shine a light in the starter bolt holes to make sure you're not compressing a heli coil or trash. You may need to clean out the holes. The missing bracket is suspect. Been there done that. Good luck!

[Robyn]

TRICK

JACK up the rig, remove RH front wheel/tire assembly.

Remove the rubber splash flap on the inner fender.

You can now sit on a bucket and easily undo the wires from the solenoid as well as get to the front little bracket location.

No fuss, no muss, and no skinned knuckles and lost screws,nuts etc.

This access point is also perfect for doing the glow plugs on that side http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=43425

This link will get you lotsa info on starter stuff and piccy's too

Look at pix labeled start 9,10, 11

This view is right in above the frame after the rubber flap is removed.

If you spoil the plastic buttons that hold the flap in, the parts house will be able to fix ya up right quick.

This tech takes all the misery out of doing the starter wires and the front bracket


Here is another link to some helpful info.

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=43423&highlight=glow+plug+access


There are good pix here.

The little added access hole give easy access to the number 8 glow plug without a hitch.
Also the heater hose connection at the firewall is right there too and the rear injector too.

Hope this stuff helps

[Dvldog8793]

Howdy
The re-torque is after a dozen or so starts. Personally...I check the starter bolts everytime I change the oil.
Excellent link info from Robyn. I found that a 1/4 wobble extension for the block bolt that holds the bracket is nice.
Make sure you check the main starter cable for corrosion. If the cable is original chances are it is corroded and stiff. Its easy to replace now and can make a big difference in starting.
Do not over tighten the small wire on the starter as it can break the stud VERY easy.
Once everything is in a bolted up tight I spray the starter wire connections with battery connection sealant.
While in there consider replacing or at least testing your glow plugs. They are right there and easy to get at now. Probably add about 45min to the whole job. You can do a search on glow plug testing.
I have also cut a hole in the fender well that allows access to #8 glow plug and the heater hose connection.

Good luck!

[JKlein]

I appreciate the information and the help with the link to the post with pics. Great stuff! I already have the truck in my garage (shop) with the passenger front wheel off and up on a 6 ton jackstand.

Good point to check the starter torque settings every oil change. I will also check them after about 8-12 starts.

As for the starter cable I am going to make a new one. The one on there now has some wear at the joint of the wire into the lug. I have some new 2 AWG copper battery cable and some new lugs plus the proper crimper to make a new cable for the starter. It is also relocated on the PowerMaster starter to the oil pan side - so I'll need a few more inches to make it run properly from the starter to the batery etc...

I will look into the bolt holes in the block and blow them out with compressed (dry) air. I'll also thread the new blts into the bolt holes slowly without the starter mounted first just to check...

I am definately installing the front bracket and will ensure it is on and tight before finshiing the job.

As for glow plugs ... well getting it started is my first order of business. Once I can do that I am going to back it out of my shop so I can flush the cooling system properly. Once I finish that I will pull it back in then I will start on my 200K mile replace routine (glow plugs, controller, injectors, OPS, Lift pump, cooling system upgrade from Kennedy with new clutch, fan and pump, new belt, belt tensioner, vacum pump, crankshaft pulley, harmonic balancer, radiator, new hoses top & bottom, 190 degree thermostats, A/C compressor, orings, flush condensor etc.., new dryer, new compressor, new exhaust inc. crossover) I think that is about it - oh yeah a new CPS while I am doing the water pump. Will remove the inner fender on passenger side for the overhaul.

I thank you all and will keep you updated as I move along. I do want to upgrade all my cables to welding cables before I say I am done if possible. Still reading up on that mod. So the 2 AWG starter cable will be somewhat temporary for now.


Does it ever end???? : O


~GOD BLESS~

john

[Robyn]

Don't crimp the connection, it will corrode over time.

Use copper eye and solder it.

Corrosion in the strands eventually causes high resistance and power loss.

[JKlein]

I have read multiple threads that bestow the virtues of crimping saying that soldering creates to rigid a connection and can become brittle over time etc.

Those who support crimping say that as long as you ensure it is sealed properly with heat shrink tubing that is the way to go and they often point out that is
how factory wires are terminated at the ends.

I see you have experience, based on your posts and being a forum moderator, I just want to do what is best.

I even read one post that the person suggested crimping, with a hydrolic crimper, then drilling a small hole in the lug and soldering into that hole!

So you suggest soldering the lug on with the proper amount of flux used? Then heat shrink over that?

Thank you for any advice.

~GOD BLESS~

john

[Dvldog8793]

Howdy
My .02 for battery cable connections. I worked for Motorola building squads and ems rigs for several years. For the main battery cables, I use both crimp and solder with 2/0 fine strand welding cable and heat seal to cover it.
- Physically lay out all the cable and make sure you give yourself nice easy loops and bends. No tight corners or switch backs.
-Make sure you put on the heat seal before you start crimping the cables.
- Use Heavy lug crimp connectors. you can get side or top post and splices. They even make a two cable battery connection for dual battery sets. These require a special crimper and some special MUSCLES to make it work;).
-Make sure you put on the heat seal before you start crimping the cables.
-Make sure you put on the heat seal before you start crimping the cables:D
- For the starter connection make sure that you have room and that the connector is not going to contact anything else. You might have to modify the connector to make a good fit.
- I like top post connections as they have more surface area and are easier to maintain.
- Once you get all the cables made up and do a test fit, THEN get out the solder and use enough to flow into the connector and just start into the wire. I like to use Kestor 60/40 .040 rosin core.
-Let it cool then do your heat seal.
In the environment we are talking about corrosion and connection is much more critical than solder getting brittle.
The manufactures do what they do to hit the cost margin....:D
Hope this helps!

[JKlein]

So it seems that a mixture of the two is best then. I solder most all of my small connections I make when wiring things up.

As it is with most things I want to do the job right and not have to go back in later to fix something that could have been avoided if it was done “right” the first time. I’d imagine that was the intent behind Robyn’s comment to solder.
I also try to take my on-line research with a grain of salt if you will with regards to what people say to do and not to do. I look for patterns and for any singular voices that may be swinging the discussion one way or the other. But as it relate to soldering VS crimping it seemed to be almost an even split.

So where does that leave me then? Well great pointers from Dvldog. I really appreciate hearing from someone who worked in that area every day. I like your points and pointers as well. Seems like forgetting the heat shrink may have happened on one or more occasions huh? I have forgotten it before and had to start over.

I’ll look into what I have at the house and most likely at this point I will use the 2 AWG battery cable I have now for the cable to the starter. Then I plan on buying at a minimum 2/0 welding cable for the battery cables and to also replace the starter cable before I finish the engine work. I just don’t have the $$ right now and only need to get the truck started a few times to flush out the cooling system.

Then I will tear into the maintenance items and while I am at it replace the cables using your technique of laying things out and being sure I leave plenty of heat shrink on the wire before I start crimping.

I’ll most likely crimp the 2 awg battery cable this weekend as I do not have time to order the Kestor you recommend. That will give me time to also find proper lugs for my connections at the batteries. The previous owners put top post batteries in the truck. So I am dealing with that setup for now.

I replaced the batteries and stuck with top post at the time I replaced them. They are still great batteries and I have a few ideas of how to get my cables to work with the top post design.

Thank you again to everyone. Any other feedback or ideas is always appreciated. After all I don’t start the project for 2 ½ more days…..

~GOD BLESS~

john

[Dvldog8793]

3196

3197

These are the connectors that I use. Not sure where you find them. I get them at a local hardware store that has pretty much everything.
Don't worry about the specific Kestor solder just make sure that it is electrical grade and 60/40 rosin core.
You will need a small torch to do the solder work

[Robyn]

Never ever had one break.

What happens is the outer area where the crimp is is the only contact area, and once moisture gets in, and it will, an electrolysis sets up shop and the areas within the strands will turn crusty white or even green.

The resistance heads off into the ozones and it's all downhill from there.

Strip the rubber jacket off the cable, use a copper eye, apply rosin flux to the cup area and the stuff the cable in.

Heat that puppy up and flow in solder until it penetrates the cable and produces a solid connection.

The cable is now ONE with the eye.

The cable can flex as needed and there is no real worries about fracture.

I have seen 3 year old factory cables on these rigs that look great be useless.

They will get to the point that they will not handle any power at all.

The core corrodes and soon it's junk.

As mentioned, the mfg is trying to meet a cost window, and that's it.

Fine strand 00 cable is sweet for this application.

Just an FYI
The factory side terminal connectors are likely the biggest mistake ever made.

Myself, I prefer the OPTIMA batteries and to use a clamp/pinch type similar to the one in the piccy, but with the stud and nut at the rear.

Simply solder eyes on the cable, then drop the terminal lugs on the battery and then fit the eye over the stud and tighten the nuts.

The ones shown in the piccy are sweet, but the type I am referring can be replaces easily and without needing more solder later.

Just my preference.



Have fun :)

Robyn

[JKlein]

OK. I love the pic of the double sided top post style clamp. I am also glad to hear that I could use a standard style top post clamp and put ring lugs on the end of the new cable and then just tighten them onto the battery connector with the bolt.

I have a few top post connectors that only have a wing nut and stud - intended for marine applications. Thought they should work well for this.

I am planning on performing a few experiments on the cable I am making for the starter thhis weekend. I only have the 2 AWG wire right now. Should only be about a 4 foot run at best if not shorter. I have 50' of the 2 awg.

When I get into the tear down for the 200K maintenance I will then purchase the 2/0 or 00 AWG fine strand , Made in USA, cables for the upgrades to all battery cables and I will also make another new starter cable. I also want to replace the ground cables, add a few more ground cables and then replace the alternator to battery cable with a larger wire.

This is a great learning experience and I greatly appreciate the advice and explinations.

I certainly do not want my cables to be useless after a year or two due to internal corrosion.

I do have a torch so performing the "melt in the solder into the lug and then insert the stripped cable" should be no problem.

I will do one ground cable that way this weekend as I looked last night and I have some solder with flux core at the house from my audio pursuits.

Thanks again for the help. Any more tips or thoughhts are always appreciated.

~GOD BLESS~

john

[JKlein]

So for now I had to make a new battery to starter cable from some new 2 AWG battery pure copper cable that I had. I used a 5/8" hole copper lug and the hydraulic crimper along with marine heat shrink at both ends.

The started mounted with no problmes once I routed the battery cable the right way for that kind of starter. I checked my other connections and also had to extend the ignition swithc trigger wire about 6 additional inches.

Covered that with heat shrink and also the heat foil wrap.

Gave the ole' key a push after the glow plug light went out and ZA-ZAM! That new PowerMaster Starter spun that 6.5 like it was nothing. Truck started almost within 3 seconds. I have not had it running since 8/1/2015!

I let it run for about 30 minutes.

I'll build some proper cables when I tear into it for the 200K workup. Thinking 2/0 for all battery and ground cables and a larger perhaps #6 or #4 for the battery to the power distribution block as well as either a #4 or #6 wire from the other positive battery to the alternator.


Thanks for all the help!

~GOD BLESS~

john