Serious Trouble.... Big money... Need advice desperately

[flyboy2005]

Hello guys. I need some help quick. I'm almost ready to give up and sell my truck. I've gone through 3 pumps and it looks like I'm in for another. However, I'm past the GM warranty (193000 kms).... I've got 200000 (just hit it). Here is the situation:
On vacation (far from home), I started to get some black smoke up a very mild grade.
Drove it, and realized something was wrong but not very far, only from cottage to white water kayaking place.
Sunday, wanted to try to make the drive home. Lots of black smoke, couldn't get truck above 60 km/h. Called tow truck and he thought it would be okay to drive home. He was wrong.
Keep going, until I could no longer go over 30 km/h with foot to the floor. My rpms, never got above 1500.

Stopped vehicle. I have about 1/4 inch of soot in my exhaust pipes. I think my CAT must be clogged, air cleaner is fine. Inspected turbo and the fans are moving okay. Vacume pump is working. I think the waste gate must need to be replaced, maybe even the EGR valve.

Took it to reputable diesel shop, and they pulled the codes, and I think I got them all. My pump is definatly gone. I wasn't burning any oil and my engine temps. were okay. I had no power, it was much more then a burnt turbo because as far as I know you can still drive it without a turbo.

So at this point I'm thinking of fixing it and selling it. I don't want to but I don't think I have much of a choice anymore. Please help. I need to educate myself before I agree to any work.

On the verge of tears,

David

[tanker]

Hold on David, I think you may have something other than a bad injection pump. Loss of power and black smoke are a sure sign of too much fuel, and not enough air. You may have a bad vacuum actuator on the turbo waste gate, a vacuum line leak, a bad waste gate solenoid, (on left rear valve cover) How much vacuum is the vacuum pump pulling? Should be 23-25"hg
You may be correct on the soot clogging the cat, but that may be from no turbo boost. Do you have a boost gauge? How about a pyrometer? Some shops are not all that great on a GM Diesel. Three pumps in such a short time!!!?? Do you have a FSD Cooler for relocting the PMD, that could be bad, from too much heat. Do you run your fuel tank below 1/4 tank when its hot? If so that will not provide enough cooling for the PMD (pump mounted driver).
I lost boost a few times from various reasons, some of which I mentioned above. It could also be the injection pump, but have a good tech check it out with a tech II tool first. Get back here to the forum with some more imformation. smile.gif

[flyboy2005]

Thanks for the reply... trust me I need it. But for more info, I never let the tank get below 1/2 full, I always use diesel fuel conditioner (Power Service) every tank. I didn't hook up a gauge to the vacum pump, but the hose sucked my thumb up rather well. The engine is idling terribly rough (literally shaking), and will sometimes stall. The vacum pump was replaced not too long ago, so I think it's okay. However, the turbo waste gate is not moving (is that the pole that goes to the turbo?) Tomorrow, I'll post all the codes I'm getting. I don't want to get rid of it, but I'm going through way too many pumps. This black smoke is not normal.... You can't see the car behind you in the rearview mirror. I'm not kidding. It's that bad. I don't have a turbo boost gauge, or a pyrometer. (I could never find someone competent to install them).

Help me,

David

[TORQUEMADA]

Heavy black smoke, lots of soot, gradual loss of power. It sounds really rich, so fuel isn't the problem. You stated air cleaner was okay. What about the duct work leading to the filter? It just seems you have a lack of air getting in. Or air getting out. The cat may be toast now, if it wasn't before. I'm not sure a bad PFD would cause your problem, but I've never had mine go bad,(knock on noggin). The cost of a new IP would get me motivated to try alittle more troubleshooting. I knocked the stuffing out of my cat awhile back and it was time well-spent. Your gonna have to bust a knuckle or two to find the culprit. Good luck.

[whatnot]

Running rough at idle doesn't sound like a turbo problem.
Did you take the oil cap off while it is idling to check for a lot of blowby?
I would check out the EGR valve and cat first.

[cruzer]

Are you sure it's black smoke or could it be blue?

[rustypig]

The rough idle thing in conjunction with the other items leads me to believe it's a timing, fuel, or exhaust restriction problem. However, if your 1500 is the L56 with EGR system, I'd suspect that as a possible culprit (bad MAP?).
First thing I would try is to disconnect the cat and give it a run.

As far as fuel...change the filter just to get an eyeball on it and see how plugged up it is.
It is possible to have an injector (or two) leak badly, possibly hang open?...would lead to some really crappy idle and lots of black smoke.
Could also be timing, but I've not heard of these rigs jumping timing, except for normal wear.

I wouldn't lose hope yet. Get some trouble shooting behind you and get the info back here...(then we can SMASH all hope as a group) ha ha. :D Just kidding...someone here is bound to have the answer.

[JCM5]

Flyboy, let us know what you find.

I would bet its not the egr, turbo or vacumm.
My guess would be more on the line of plugged exhuast slipped timing on the pump, or maybe but no likely a compression issue.

let us know, with these trucks it could even be in a faulty mass flow air sensor or such to the computer.

[flyboy2005]

Hello guys, in one minute I'll give you all the codes that were pulled off the computer. First off though I try to answer some of your questions. I did take off the oil cap, and didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. The smoke coming out of the pipes was strictly black. I didn't seem to burn any oil whatsoever, and my engine temp. remained constant.

Now for the codes (I'm not at home so I don't have my book to tell me what they are:
92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97
36 (PMD), 78 (wastegate)
85 (He said he'd never seed a code 85 before and didn't know what it was)

C-Time 2.03 to 2.24

Hopefully, those numbers will help.

Thanks again,

David

[Bill Voitel]

Flyboy, on your secont post I think you said your waste gate rod is not moving. Start there sounds like it may the problem.

Good luck and don't give up yet!

Bill. :eek:

[charliepeterson]

All the codes in the 90's are cylinder balance faults. I only count six which could mean that you only have two good cylinder's working, this could also include Injectors. Holes #2,6,5,4,3 and 1 are not good. Holes #7 and 8 are good. I would start the truck when it's cold and loosen up the offending Injectors for fuel coming out. If the truck has no change when loosened up then this Injector is DEAD. The GOOD news is that #'s 7 and 8 are the furthest back and can be tough to get at.
You should not be able to move the Waste Gate rod on the Turbo when it's running.
One other thing, none of the Injector Balance codes will turn on the SES light. I usually concentrate on the lowest number code first and try to make them go away first.
If you have a handfull of Injectors just dumping fuel into the cylinders you will get lots of black smoke.

[Coghlin]

Also pull your upper intake manifold and clean it out. I did this with my truck and two intake ports were almost completely blocked. THis is because of your EGR system. At idle when you plug in your wastegate actuator it should move the wastegate.

[flyboy2005]

Charlie, that explains a good deal. It also tells me why my engine light didn't come on right away. So my other question to you is why would the guy at the diesel shop, which is 150 miles away (where my truck broke down), tell me that I have to rebuild the pump? Is there any evidence from the info I've given here that shows I have to rebuild the pump? Or can I just replace the waste gate, and the injectors? Please let me know because I can't physically see the truck at this point, and I'm afraid someone is going to steal my money.

Thanks,

David

[ 07-30-2003, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: flyboy2005 ]

[charliepeterson]

None of the codes that are in the computer right now are Injection Pump related. When the pump is failing the computer will log specific trouble codes.
Codes #18,34,35,36 are Injection Pump Related. The Pulse width or how long the Injectors are open to fire are related to the last three codes.

[ucdavis]

Charlie is right on- IP is the last thing on the list of suggestions to R&R to see if that needed R&R'ing.
The balance codes together w/symptoms indicate something wrong w/individual cylinders. Obviously they are getting plenty of fuel to produce the soot, so IP is sending pulse & accomplishing injection. Could be that pulse is hopelessly off time, but not likely or I'd expect more IP related codes.
Start w/the really dumb stuff that doesn't occur to anybody that it might be wrong- air intake path. You can assume valves are good for the time being, and check from snorkel or other initial intake, thru air filter, thru pre turbo piping, thru turbo, thru post turbo, thru manifold. Then do injector check as Charlie suggested, taking care to reseat injectors as you go. These are accessible and easily inspected. If OK, check exhaust from tailpipe to turbo. If OK, move on to more complex items. I'll bet its in air path due to clog/obstruction, or injectors (you can get an injector pop tested thru a good diesel service or diesel injection service).
Your diesel service outfit probably jumped to conclusion about pump cuz of the known failure rate on them. If they are good, they'll look at the input you are getting (it represents about a billion road miles of experience w/these rigs) and will reconsider. If they know it all and insist on replacing the pump first thing, find a new service.

[charliepeterson]

These Injectors are really good for 75,000 miles. After this point they really don't owe you anything. When they start failing the fuel mileage can go down and starts can become harder and performance will suffer. Whether you race from light to light or tow six tons through the mountains, sometimes this part of the trouble shooting equation can be over looked. Sure some people will get 150,000 miles out of a set, most don't.

[flyboy2005]

Sorry that it's taken me so long to update this, but this is how long I've been without a truck. (over a month now!!!). Please read this update and tell me if it makes sense. I just talked to the dealership and this is what they told me:
They said it's either one of two things. A broken Valve Spring, or a Broken Valve. If it's just the spring it's not too bad. If it's a broken valve it'll cost me over three thousand dollars.
Does this make sense? Is this what is causing the billowing black smoke and no power? Thanks for the help.

Still crying (but with srong leg muscles),

David

[autocrosser]

I you think the cat is clogged separate it from the down pipe and try it out. A clogged cat will give you clouds of black smoke with almost no throttle applied and reduce your power tremendously. It will also cause overheating while pulling a load. I have seen a number of these so try it first. I can't address the cause of the codes but it would be worth a try first.

[gmorley]

My GM service manual says in a nut shell that:

DTC 78 (Diagnostic Trouble Code)Wastegate Solenoid Fault, will set when:
-RPM greater than 1800
-Fuel rate greater than 20 mm.
-Boost pressure greater than or less than disired (internal to PCM).

***first thing to check****
Vacuum leak or pinched vacuum line
Binding W/G (wastegate)linkage, needs lubrication

other checks to make

-Vacuum above 15"
-Plugged W/G solenoid filter
-Faulty W/G solenoid
-W/G actuator for leakage or binding linkage
-Turbo for mechanical failure
-W/G solenoid electrical connections etc...
-Plugged or leaky vacuum hose to vacuum pump.
-Vacuum pump output

DTC 85 Undefined Ratio Error

quote "DTC 85 will set when an unknown gear ratio is detected for any gear but 4th. Note commanded gear and incorrect ratio. Check transmission fluid level. Refer to symptom diagnosis charts in SECTION 7**7A." end Quote.

Sorry I don't have access to section 7**7A

I hope this helps. We could discuss this futher by e-mail or phone, if you like. Let me know.

Good Luck

[flyboy2005]

Well it turns out, I've got one bent push-rod and another sticking valve. I'm screwed. My engine is toast. It's not fun still having payments for 10 grand when you're truck doesn't work!!!! Oh well, that's life I guess. I'm going for a gasser next time. I think I'll go for a 2500 extended wheelbase cargo van, with a Gas engine.... no more diesel!!!!! This 6.5 cost me a fortune and gave me nothing but pain. I've heard that they are either great engines or terrible ones... none of them are in between. I had the bad one.

Regards,

David

[rustypig]

If that's all that's wrong then all is not lost. Pushrods are cheap (change them all) and it probably wouldn't cost you an arm and a leg for a valve job if you shop around. Better yet... if you do the work yourself it only cost time and $ for parts. I'd have the head's done at a reasonable shop and get the inserts installed while I was at it though.

All in all I'd say it's a lot like a divorce....cheaper to keep her.