start up smoke

[guyina4x4]

so a couple weeks ago I tore off the heads and replaced the head gaskets.
also replaced the leaking oil cooler lines. and the passenger side glow plugs.
I also remoted the PMD. to the front bumper. new OPS sensor too.

problem? when I cold start, it starts right up after glow plug cycle, no excessive cranking. and smokes like crazy for 1-2 minutes, I mean fogs the whole front yard with white/grey smoke. the temp here this morning was about 40 degrees.

no coolant loss

after the first couple minutes I don't think it smokes at all. maybe just a bit on acceleration.

also at idle I have a knock, just a bit off idle I can't hear it at all.
I have good oil pressure, 40 psi at idle, 55 or so cruising at 65 mph.

thanks

[Kennedy]

Assuming you got the gaskets sealed properly it sounds like a glow plug heat issue.

[guyina4x4]

I think the head gaskets are good to go now. I had the hard upper hose syndrome.
I'm not loosing any more coolant.

I know the GP on the passenger side were bad. I also had to re-wire the harness on that side as all 4 were burnt from the exhaust manifold.


the thing starts right up, even last week we had a low of 12 degrees, wait for light to go out and fired right up. with tons of smoke. runs a bit rough for a minute, a little help from the peddle and it smoothes out good.

I've been trying to find a good video/audio of injector knock to compare mine too.
I was told the injectors were just rebuilt when I bought the truck.
but I was also told all 8 GP's had been changed. (3 were in the glove box) guess which 3.

[DmaxMaverick]

Glow plug heat may be an issue, but don't rule out the injector(s). A poor spray pattern (for whatever reason) will delay smooth running, as well as contribute to cold-start smoke. Air in the fuel supply will also cause the issue.

[Kennedy]

Could be injectors, but the 6.5 has shown to be quite tolerant of poor spray patterns plus the issue seems to have turned on like a light switch after the service?

[guyina4x4]

I only had the truck for a couple weeks before the service.
I didn't drive it much, the oil cooler lines were leaking pretty good.

it didn't start as good before I changed the gp's and fixed the harness. it took a lot more cranking to get it going before.
now it fires right up.

I've not ruled out air in the fuel yet.

Kennedy, what are you thinking could be attributed to the service?

thanks guys

[Kennedy]

Without history it seemed that the issue started right after you performed the service. We are at the mercy of assumptions here.

Plug in the block heater and see how it starts.

Most cold start issues are directly related to glow plug heat.

A fresh set of known good plugs would be best starting point:

http://www.kennedydiesel.com/categoryresults2.cfm?Category=1&SubCategory=61


That and a compression test.

[rustyk]

What you're getting is "cold smoke", actually consisting mostly of a mist of unburned fuel, and it's, as mentioned, attributable to not enough glow plug heat (combined with the very low temps you're enjoying). Try starting with the block heater on overnight.

[guyina4x4]

this morning it was 44 degrees.

it is currently 73 degrees.

I checked all the gp's for power this morning. they all have power to them.
the glows are new AC Delco.

you know, the only other thing I changed with the head gaskets was I added a #9 resistor to the PMD??
it didn't have a resistor before that.

I just started it up at 73 degrees outside, it smoked for maybe 20 seconds and cleared up.
I never saw any smoke at all from this thing before.
I wonder if I should switch out the #9 for a #5??

[sctrailrider]

From the way it sounds it's normal smoke...

Post up a video for us to see, better than guessing what it looks like...

When the IP gets tired or worn they will smoke more & more....

[guyina4x4]

ok so yesterday when I got home from work I removed the #9 resistor and put in a #5 (easier said than done)
removed battery cable for about an hour.
started up, still smokey
Service engine soon light came on immediately.
pulled codes 35 and 74 ( first time for SES light )
disconnected batteries again for 10 minutes or so
drove to work

now here's the wieerd thing, this truck runs better than it ever has, I mean it's running harder than ever. I always thought it was a little slow off the line.but not now.


also the cruise control doesn't work now, it used to work perfectly

it's sitting with the batteries disconnected again for a while.

[DmaxMaverick]

When you disconnect the batteries for a computer reset, ground one of the positive cables for about 30 minutes. 10 minutes ungrounded shouldn't be doing anything for you.

The resistor should have nothing to do with your startup smoke issue. It will have and affect on running and power, though. The calibration resistor value is only read periodically, and not a dynamic interactive component. If the cruise doesn't work, power level changed, and you're getting DTC's, the resistor issue may have triggered a default fueling issue. With the codes you now have, I suspect a connection or ground issue, somewhere. Changing the resistor shouldn't have caused any of the conditions you've described, but messing with the harness(es) may have.

[guyina4x4]

When you disconnect the batteries for a computer reset, ground one of the positive cables for about 30 minutes. 10 minutes ungrounded shouldn't be doing anything for you.

The resistor should have nothing to do with your startup smoke issue. It will have and affect on running and power, though. The calibration resistor value is only read periodically, and not a dynamic interactive component. If the cruise doesn't work, power level changed, and you're getting DTC's, the resistor issue may have triggered a default fueling issue. With the codes you now have, I suspect a connection or ground issue, somewhere. Changing the resistor shouldn't have caused any of the conditions you've described, but messing with the harness(es) may have.

yes I don't think the start up smoke level changed any

I was wondering about some default closed loop mode with the SES light on.

I cleaned all the grounds and added a couple new ground straps to the passenger side when I did the head gaskets and the harness for the pmd was also added then. relocated pmd to bumper hole.

I will try grounding the positive cable

thanks

[DmaxMaverick]

The next time you cold-start (when you would expect the smoke), try a tripple-take of the GP cycle. Key-off as soon at the lamp goes out, wait 5 seconds, Key-on, repeat twice. This should get those plugs a little hotter. If you start with less or no smoke, the problem is the (less hot) plugs.

AC60G plugs do not get as hot, as quick, as the other plugs. They are good plugs, but that's how they work. Some engines don't care. Some, like yours, may. If pre-heating the plugs with this test helps, Kennedy offered an excellent option for the plug you should probably be using. I use his Quick Heat plugs, and they work very well. Or, you can add a manual glow relay and switch to manually extend the glow cycle (and provide after-glow) as needed.

If nothing you do with the plugs helps with the smoke, look for air in the fuel or new injectors, or both.

[trbankii]

When the IP gets tired or worn they will smoke more & more....

I can understand the connection of smoke to glow plugs (cold start) or injectors (“sloppy” spray not igniting as well), but what about the IP would cause smoke? Also tied to sloppy spray?

[guyina4x4]

The next time you cold-start (when you would expect the smoke), try a tripple-take of the GP cycle. Key-off as soon at the lamp goes out, wait 5 seconds, Key-on, repeat twice. This should get those plugs a little hotter. If you start with less or no smoke, the problem is the (less hot) plugs.

AC60G plugs do not get as hot, as quick, as the other plugs. They are good plugs, but that's how they work. Some engines don't care. Some, like yours, may. If pre-heating the plugs with this test helps, Kennedy offered an excellent option for the plug you should probably be using. I use his Quick Heat plugs, and they work very well. Or, you can add a manual glow relay and switch to manually extend the glow cycle (and provide after-glow) as needed.

If nothing you do with the plugs helps with the smoke, look for air in the fuel or new injectors, or both.


well whatever I did, I assume changing the resistor, it's all messed up now, I had a hard time getting the #9 out

I think I'm buying a new PMD now.

I noticed last night I didn't get much of a GP cycle, I figured it was because it was fairly warm outside.
tonight I get about 1 second GP cycle at first and then none after that.
it started really hard and smoked worse than ever and ran rough for 2-3 minutes before it smoothed out.
I never did get the SES light to go out.

[sctrailrider]

I can understand the connection of smoke to glow plugs (cold start) or injectors (“sloppy” spray not igniting as well), but what about the IP would cause smoke? Also tied to sloppy spray?

I was talking about the IP getting tired & causing a little more smoke....

[trbankii]

I was just curious about the connection.

[rustyk]

Also clean the block grounds - while the light may come one, the glow plugs might not be getting full current. This has twice been an issue on my motorhome.

[rapidoxidationman]

well whatever I did, I assume changing the resistor, it's all messed up now, I had a hard time getting the #9 out

I think I'm buying a new PMD now.

I noticed last night I didn't get much of a GP cycle, I figured it was because it was fairly warm outside.
tonight I get about 1 second GP cycle at first and then none after that.
it started really hard and smoked worse than ever and ran rough for 2-3 minutes before it smoothed out.
I never did get the SES light to go out.

There's a trick you can do with the coolant temp sensor to fool the glow plug controller into giving you a LOOOONNNNNNGGGG cycle cuz it thinks it is super cold out*. Not sure if it is unplugging the sensor or shorting it out. Someone will be along shortly to let you know.

*Assumes the glow plug controller is in good shape.

[HeavyChevy95]

Another possible source of white smoke at start up is excessive condensation being removed from the crankcase by the CDR.

If the smoke turns on and off like a switch, its likely not an IP or injectors failing intermittently....

[guyina4x4]

thanks heavychevy95, I'm looking into the fuel supply, I know there is a leak by the LP.

I ordered a new PMD/FSD, so while I'm waiting for that I'm going to look into the fuel system. from the tank forward.

thanks

[DmaxMaverick]

If you have a visible fuel leak near the LP, that alone could cause the smoke issue. Step one: Fix the leak. Everything else should be secondary, if necessary after fixing the leak.

[guyina4x4]

so I figured out my sudden SES light, it was a short in the PMD/FSD. well in the connector anyway.

I started it up again today and still have plenty of smoke but my knock was in full swing so I made a little video.


knock (http://youtu.be/QaDuBXJ4gTk)

I'm still working on the fuel system. it's been raining here about every 5 minutes and this thing doesn't fit in the garage.

[HeavyChevy95]

Fixed the fuel leak yet? As fuel leaks out, its gets displaced with air.
When first started, the air becomes trapped in the fuel supply system and can cause a world of hurt on your wallet, if not your sanity.

[a5150nut]

I would bet if you check the lower belt drive pulley on the crank you will find your knock knock. Look for shiny spots on the tabs inside the ring.

[sctrailrider]

Make another vid and this time rev it past idle a few times slowly and let us hear what goes on then...

Have you checked tork converter bolts???

When it is knocking have you loosened the injector lines to help locate the knock...

[HeavyChevy95]

The knock could simply be trapped air in the system being forced to purge naturally, think of a screaming baby needing to pass gas.

YOU MUST FIX THE KNOWN FUEL LEAK BEFORE YOU PROCEED!!!!!!!!

ANY ADVANCED DIAGNOSTICS ASSUMES THE FUEL SYSTEM IS UNRESTRICTED, UNAERATED, AND EVERYTHING UP TO THAT POINT IS WORKING PROPERLY...

MISS a fuel leak, air leak, fuel restriction, split craked deteriorated fuel hoses, lose hose clamp, inop/faulty lift pump, clogged fuel filter or fuel strainer, weak battery, faulty ground(s), faulty connections, damaged electrical harness(s), etc etc etc at the beginning or during.. ANY further diagnostics is unreliable at best and likely to quickly lead to a costly misdiagnosis.....

Unfortunitely, all that mind numbing s'it takes alot of time and seems like a waste of time for most PRO's and DIYrs alike. If its not pouring fuel on the ground, most assume no fuel system leaks. If it were only that easy..



AIR IS 6.5L EFI's KRYPTONITE.
FAULTY GROUNDS, ITS NEMESIS.


Thats why we 6.5 EFI DIY'rs must be excruciatingly thorough in nearly every step of the often monotonous processssss, specially during those most "Important Preliminary Checks" if further troubleshooting is to lead to an accurate diagnose and/or resolution

[guyina4x4]

Make another vid and this time rev it past idle a few times slowly and let us hear what goes on then...

Have you checked tork converter bolts???

When it is knocking have you loosened the injector lines to help locate the knock...


yes I checked the converter bolts, they're tight.
yes I loosened the injector lines with no change, I also listened to them with a stethoscope and couldn't pin point that way either.

I'll get another video in the morning. hopefully it'll make the noise, sometimes it's not very loud and is hard to pick up with the normal engine sounds.

I'm still working on the fuel system, I'm not sure there is a leak. the lift pump is working good.

[phantom309]

with the motor shut off,. put a socket on the alternator nut, and see if the alternator turns with the belt easily for a 1/2 turn or so,.

the cold smoke could be a timing issue,.

unplug your temp sensor on the t stat water crossover,. it gives it lots of advance then for cold start ,..

[guyina4x4]

ok, so it's been a while but I've been steadily working on the old girl.

I replaced all the fuel lines and the fuel filter/housing, I think I had several small leaks around the pump and the filter manager maybe even a couple spots in the rusty tubing.

still same problems, lots of start up smoke and a knock at idle.

so I got a compression tester and the best reading I got was 240 on 1,3,5,7
160 on 2,4 and 220 on 6,8
Guess those numbers speak for themselves.
I knew they wouldn't be good because of all the blow by I had.

SOoo I figured time for a different engine.
got me a 1992 6.2L complete engine from a guy who was swapping it out due to massive oil leaks. he just got a different engine so he could swap and go.
he didn't have a place to store it, so he pulled it and I hauled it home.
$150
I tore it down and put in new main and rod bearings.
new timing chain
all new gaskets
switched over the stuff from the 6.5
when I had the heads off I found 1 small crack between valves on one head.
I heard the engine run before hand and it ran good, almost no blo by only had 180000 miles on it.
so in the truck it went.

runs great much smoother than the original.
no smoke at all at startup

but bummer I still have the knock
I always thought it was either an injector or the inj pump.
I'll keep working on it. some day I'll get it figured out.

[rustyk]

Check the crankshaft damper and the drive pulley (also damped). I had a knocking several years ago and it was the crank damper.

[guyina4x4]

Check the crankshaft damper and the drive pulley (also damped). I had a knocking several years ago and it was the crank damper.

thanks
yea I checked those out pretty good when I had the engine out.
they are fine.

[phantom309]

i'd guess you have a bad injector,. and its a fuel knock

[guyina4x4]

Funny you should say that, it's what I thought all along. I've tried repeatedly cracking lines to see which one. Never stopped the knocking entirely.
The injectors that came with the truck were supposed to be fresh rebuilds.
Yesterday I pulled out all 4 on the driver side and swapped in 4 that came in my used engine, they look really crappy, but I figured what the heck, definately,

[guyina4x4]

made a huge difference.
so the next day I changed out the other 4

these used 6.2 injectors make the engine sound totally different.
the nock is all but gone, still a little but very different sound, much more tinny.
I'd say they're not the best either but they are better than the "rebuilt" injectors that came with the truck.
I took apart one of the rebuilds and it has Bosch nozzles from India in it.
and they do look new