Smoke from oil fill, losing coolant...

[DennisG01]

Bear with me as I get to the question - just want to provide as much info as possible...

I've always had a little tiny coolant leak (from some bolt on the back side of the port-side head?) since the engine was rebuilt (about 53K on the rebuild). No big deal as it would take 5K miles (give or take) to get to the point where the low coolant light came on. But recently the rate of loss has sped up. I initially thought it was just an air bubble as I had to refill again after less than 50 miles. But I just had to refill again after the same, less than 50 miles.

It is NOT showing up on the driveway (like that pesky little leak would) and oil level has NOT increased. In fact, it's a little low - but the engine always seems to eat a little oil since the rebuild. Less than one quart over 3K miles. With 2K miles on the current oil change, I'm down about 1/2 to 3/4 quart. The oil looks the same color (black) as it always does. Again, oil level is NOT increasing.

It is not in the ATF - that looks nice and red.

So this brings us closer to my question. As I was refilling the coolant (cold engine - about 45* ambient) I decided to also open the bleeder screw. I happened to have the dipstick out (engine was running) and noticed that there were puffs of greyish smoke coming out the dipstick tube. I closed the bleeder and the puffs went away. Opened the bleeder and the puffs came back, closed the bleeder and they stopped, etc.

I went for a short trip (10 miles) and when I came home I removed (engine still running) the oil filler cap. There was a small amount of greyish (maybe whitish) smoke coming out of the filler neck. I put my palm over the filler neck for about 10 seconds and there was no oily residue or discoloration to my hand. And then I looked at the underside of the cap. I use orange Dexcool. The cap smelled slightly sweet and so did the smoke coming out of the filler neck.

I am immediately thinking head gasket (but I am not an expert on this matter, by any means), but am wondering if that is the only possible cause as this engine was built to handle 25+ PSI by Ron Schoolcraft (If I remember correctly, he used ARP studs, for example). There are no drivability issues and all gauges read normal. About 53K miles on the rebuild. I'm going to look around for a local oil analysis company (for time's sake).

Any and all thoughts are welcome! And... I won't be driving it until I at least figure out if the coolant is getting in the oil as I assume that's pretty bad for an engine. Here is a pic of the filler cap:

http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx322/DennisG01/7908F9DB-E69E-4CED-8FCA-B582A0FA2773_zpsbgvd4wls.jpg (http://s768.photobucket.com/user/DennisG01/media/7908F9DB-E69E-4CED-8FCA-B582A0FA2773_zpsbgvd4wls.jpg.html)

[DennisG01]

I drained about 3 ounces of oil from the pan into an old baby food jar. I then put one drop onto a business card. This picture is after it soaked in for about 2 hours. The oil that I drained into the jar seems of normal viscosity and smells only of oil. There is no sweet smell to it - perhaps I mistook the smell I smelled earlier?

http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx322/DennisG01/B7640152-4558-4CF6-8A65-3E6B6E622F62_zpsawylappl.jpg (http://s768.photobucket.com/user/DennisG01/media/B7640152-4558-4CF6-8A65-3E6B6E622F62_zpsawylappl.jpg.html)

[Robyn]

Get the oil tested for glycol first.


The loss of coolant is always spooky on these beasts.

The come and go of smoke from the crankcase/oil fill when the coolant air bleed is opened and closed is ominous for sure.

The lack of leaks on the ground makes it even more ominous.

NORMALLY, a coolant leak past a head gasket will also show pressure in the cooling system with the HARD top hose symptom and coolant being blown out over the pressure cap.


My next question is what year is the block and the casting number ????

If this is a factory 98 block from the Burb in your signature :eek:

Two very bad scenarios come to mind.
A cracked #8 cylinder near the top deck. 97 and later blocks were common.
These can cause coolant loss into the cylinder and leak into CC too.
The cracks will tend to seal upwhen the engine is hot.

A crack that started in the main web and has crawled up into the lower end of a cylinder allowing a slow coolant leak into the bottom end.

Get the oil checked, then let us know.

I hate to throw cold water on the camp fire, but this situation looks ugly at present.

Get more data and we can move from there.

Allow the rig to sit over night, yank the #8 glow plug, unhook the IP shut off Sol, stuff a clean paper towel up by the 8 hole and crank the engine.

See wassssssup, if there is red coolant on the towel there is trouble in paradise.


Robyn

[DennisG01]

Thanks, Robyn. I will see if there's a local place to get oil checked tomorrow. If not, I'll send it off to Blackstone.

Yes, it's the original engine (although I bought the truck in 2002 with about 55K on it). When Ron had the engine, I remember him talking about the cracks that you're talking about. He said everything looked fine - that was at almost 100K, am at 150K right now. He also beefed up the engine block with splayed main caps. I realize, though, that just because it looked fine then, doesn't mean it stays that way.

I see 'some' indication of coolant coming out of the overflow rubber hose and onto the inner fender well. Doesn't appear to be much, though. I stuffed a paper towel underneath and will check again (if I end up running the engine for a bit). But not until I know the oil is clean.

I've searched through some old posts, but can't get a clear idea of where to find the casting number and date?

[DennisG01]

Oh... the fuel shutoff solenoid - that's the tall, cylindrical piece on the backside of the pump, right?

[Robyn]

Yesssss
Tall thing on the RH side of the IP when looking in from the front of the rig. (Drivers side)

Just unplug it and she won't start while you crank it.

Getting at the 8 glow is a beotch, but you need to see if anything comes out of the hole after sitting overnight or a day or two.

Let us know what shakes.

Robyn

[DennisG01]

Getting at the 8 glow is a beotch,

I remember.... although I tried to forget... :)

[Robyn]

From under the rig.

Right hand

Reach up around the down pipe, and access is fairly easy.

This is why I added the rat hole in the inner fender on the Dahooooley

[DennisG01]

Cool - I'll give that a shot once the outside temp warms up a bit here. Worst case, I'll just pull the inner fender as that comes out pretty quick. Good idea on that quick-access hole, though! I'll have to put that one into the 'ol noodle for later reference!

I found a CAT store near me and dropped off the oil for analysis.

[phantom309]

Have you check to see if all the intake manifold bolts are nice and tight?

clutching a little here,...

As Robyn says,. any time a motor is ingesting antifreeze,.

its bad,..

[DennisG01]

Clutching, yeah - for sure. :rolleyes:

I was able to get to almost all of the intake manifold bolts. Most were very tight - a few I was able to turn the nut about 1/16 to maybe 1/8 of a turn tighter.

Getting to #8, with your tip, was easy. Looks like I even remembered to put some antiseize on it! Came right out. My wife turned the engine over as I held a white paper towel against the hole. The only thing I saw on the towel was blackish/greyish in color and dry. No wet, no orange.

In poking around, I found a small wet spot on the inboard edge of valley of the engine - front, driver's side corner - right under the big coolant hose where it attaches to the t-stat housing. I used a q-tip to reach down there and soak some up. It didn't 'appear' to be orange in color (but then again, it's resting on old metal) and I couldn't tell if it tasted sweet or not. It was not thick, like oil, though. The hose 'appears' to be in good shape.

I also saw a tiny bead of coolant sitting between the head and the block, on the driver's side, back corner. But am not sure if it is leaking there, or just showing up there from another spot.

Once I get the oil analysis back (assuming it's clear), I'll start the engine and give a better look for leaks.

[DennisG01]

A local shop let me borrow their pressure tester - I'll use that tomorrow.

[Robyn]

NOT SEEING coolant on that #8 hole is a good thing.

These engines are not noted for any real issues with random coolant leaks.

The oil test will tell us a lot.

The thing that worries me is the vapor at the oil stick coming and going with opening and closing the coolant bleeder screw :eek:

That is definitely spooky.

Cracks in the #8 hole can start small and not leak into the engine for quite a while.

If you can air up the 8 hole with the piston at TDC, you can likely check for an internal leak.

Just lock the crank and pressure the cyl.


If nothing shows up, try adding some Cadillac tabs to the radiator in the top hose and let them circulate.

A small weep can add up.

Now, does that Burb have rear heat ???

Maybe a good looky peeky over the bottom of the rig might show a leak in a coolant line heading aft.

Rear heater core can leak and not draw a lot of attention right off.

Good luck

Missy

[DennisG01]

"Spooky" - that's a good way to put it! It's like somehow the oil system and cooling system are connected. I did notice that the relatively new CDR vlave (and gasket) are pretty dirtied up with a lot of oily grime on them and the starboard valve cover.

When I pump up the system with 15lbs, I'll definitely take a real good look everywhere - including the rear heat.

Can you explain more about "airing up the #8"? I have a little snake camera - would I use that to look into the glow plug hole? I shoulda left that pump solenoid unplugged, huh? It was a pain to get it plugged back together.

"Cadillac" tabs? Some kind of leak sealing tablets?

[Robyn]

Use a glow plug adapter to connect to shop air.

Just like doing a leak down test.

Caddy tabs, yessssssssss, leakum fixum :)
Better than bars leak.

If its a head gasket or ??? on the compression side, likely nothing will fix that sort of leak.

If the oil comes back good then the coolants gotta be going someplace.

I am still puzzled by the bleeder changing the vapor coming out the dip stick hole.

[DennisG01]

OK, so let me see if I get this straight...

-- Get #8 cylinder to TDC using snake camera (is there an easier way to do this?)
-- Find plug adapter and fill with air. My compressor will only go to about 130lbs. I assume that's plenty safe since this engine creates more PSI than that by itself? Or should I not even use that much?
-- Listen to where air is escaping... air intake, oil fill, exhaust, bubbles in coolant overflow or bleeder screw

Anything I'm missing or doing wrong?

Something like this? http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MTV0/MVA5604/N1771.oap?ck=Search_N1771_-1_-1&pt=N1771&ppt=C0103

[Robyn]

EASY WAY

Bump engine over, or use bar until air is coming out glow hole (compression stroke)

Lock crank with bar.

Use adapter to get air to cyl

You will get some air past the rings normally

If 130 will show bubbles in coolant you have a serious leak, and the coolant would blow out quick with engine running.


I am still thinking about a remote leak, like the rear heater or lines.

[DennisG01]

It's funny you bring up the rear heater lines. I just pumped up the coolant system with the pressure tool. Went around looking for leaks. Didn't find any out back, but it didn't take more than about 30 seconds for some drips to start showing under the engine.

Found a good drip coming from both plastic T-connectors (where the coolant line splits to go to the front and rear core. It seems as though it's just that the clamps aren't tight enough. I'll get two new T's (brass) and use worm gear clamps and see what happens.

For what it's worth, I left the system pumped up for 30 minutes and it dropped barely 1lb in that time.

[phantom309]

pressurizing the coolant often doesn't show much,.
compression from a cylinder is much more concentrated and can sneak past a gasket in one direction,..

[Robyn]

-Hmmmmm

My bet is that you been losing the juice from the heater hoses.

Does not take long to drop out quite a bit when they drip and leave puddles.

[DennisG01]

It's dripping just inboard of the starboard side valve cover and landing on the valley in the engine - most of it probably was burning off as I drove. I'm not counting my chickens, yet, but I'm sure as heck hoping this is the problem. I'll wait on buying the plug adapter. Once I get the oil analysis back - if all is good (at least I know coolant isn't going into the oil) then I'll drive the truck and see if the leak has stopped.

[Robyn]

Drizzles down the valley drain hole and out the hole in the flywheel cover.

A DRIP DRIP DRIP can add up real quick.

Lets hope that the little hose leak was all it was.

[DennisG01]

Hmmm. Didn't know there was a weep hole. I'll have to check that out - the coolant was filling up that back area (maybe it's plugged up) and then overflowing and dripping down the back side of the block. I think that's why I saw coolant showing in the crack between the block and port side head (aft end). Although, without the engine running (and it off) yesterday, it was dripping down many spots!

[DennisG01]

Got the oil analysis back. Not good. Tested positive for AF and water. Also the iron content was high. I checked some older samples I had done and they were also high for iron.

I couldn't seem to attach the PDF as the file must be too big for the forum. But the things/numbers the lab referenced to indicate coolant is present are sodium (Na) and potassium (K). Those numbers, in ppm, were 1408 and 263. I called the lab and they said they would normally expect those numbers to be around 10 or less.

The oil SAE grade tested at 50wt -- I use Rotella 15-40. So it seems that would indicate that the oil is thickening.

Unfortunately, this probably helps explain the wispy smoke I saw?

So the big question is, how do I figure out where it's getting in? Maybe it's best if I let a shop check it out? Can the ingestion point be figured out without tearing the engine apart? I know - probably hard questions to answer, especially via a forum.

Oh... and my other car - just now found a big spot of coolant on the ground underneath it! You've got to be kidding me!!! :eek:

[DennisG01]

I'm thinking.... use the special tablets and put fresh oil in it. Monitor coolant level closely and get oil sampling done on a short-mileage basis. Thoughts?

[rustyk]

The oil SAE grade tested at 50wt -- I use Rotella 15-40. So it seems that would indicate that the oil is thickening.

Ethylene glycol (EG) has that effect. Change the oil immediately, run the engine briefly, then park the truck until repairs are made. EG in the oil can create a coal mine-like effect if not suppressed.

[DennisG01]

Could someone explain this or tell me if I'm not thinking correctly...

So, the main goal is to figure out how/where the coolant is getting in. If I use that glow plug adapter tool, that's only going to show if I have a leaking intake or exhaust valve, right? How would that show a coolant leak? Wouldn't that only show an air leak?

And, did removing the #8 plug and turning the engine over eliminate cracks in the cylinder since no coolant came out (the paper towel was very dry)?

Assuming for a minute that there's more to this and I'm not thinking clearly, wouldn't I need to do this procedure at each cylinder?

[DennisG01]

'nother question... in regards to the wispy smoke... could that happen from a plugged CDR valve? It's a lot grimier around the CDR than I remember it ever being.

If antifreeze sat on top of the engine valley (between the valve covers) and the weep hole was clogged so it wouldn't drain very fast... is there any way that the AF sitting there could get into the oil system? I may be grasping for straws here....

[DmaxMaverick]

Are you checking your "wispy smoke" at the dipstick tube? If so, you can't measure by that. The very small hole, compared to the oil filler cap, will make it appear to be much greater than it really is. A little vapor wisping from the oil filler is normal. Unless you actually measure the blow-by with a manometer, you don't really know what you have. If you do, in fact, have water in the crankcase, that wispy smoke could be steam. Judging by the pic in your first post, it's at least possible. Where the water came from is the question.

A plugged/restricted CDR can, and often does, cause an appearance of excessive blow-by. However, it would take a lot more than just a grimy CDR. It would have to be nearly completely blocked, or internally collapsed. The CDR is normally open at idle, and only closes with an increase of intake vacuum at higher RPM's (or is supposed to).

It is possible, however unlikely, water/coolant puddling at the rear of the valley could enter the crankcase through the oil pump drive. It doesn't have a positive seal, and the paper gasket is often left out, anyway.

[DennisG01]

I originally saw the wispy smoke at the dipstick, but then noticed it at the fill, too. I was curious about "it being possibly normal" - I suppose it's the cold weather? But, there's definitely water in the oil, as confirmed by the oil analysis.

Been feeling a little under the weather - as soon as I'm feeling "over the weather", I'll change the oil out and see what's what.

[john8662]

Schoolcraft engine likely is equipped with Head Studs Right?

I'll bet your source of coolant in the oil is from these two additional locations.

1) Leaking Head Stud under valve cover. Coolant weeps into the oil from getting past the head studs (they're in coolant) and into the oil. This can be tested by removing the intake manifold, injector lines and then the valve covers. You'll then use the coolant pressure tester you already have and look for coolant leaks, they'll be easy to find. You may want to wipe most of the oil off each stud before pressure testing to make sure you're able to find the leak.

2) Leaking Outer Main Bolt on the Splayed Main Caps. Adding Splayed main caps to a block adds another possible leak area. Boring into the block to add the outside bolt holes for the splayed mains takes you really close to the water jacket surrounding the cylinders. I don't know how far Schoolcraft's machinist bores for the holes, but you have to be careful and use an appropriate length fastener to not hit the jacket. I'm using my own fasteners on engine I build as my machinist has been able to avoid hitting the water jacket. The first splayed block I had done, the bolts DID hit the jacket and required sealant on the bolts, which can over time fail.

I also agree with Greg above that the smoke you're seeing is very limey steam when the oil temperature gets hot enough to evaporate the water in the coolant from the oil. Hot oil will normally boil off water, which is a normal process that takes care of normal amounts of water in the oil from condensation.

My bet is on your leak is a head stud.

John

[DennisG01]

You're correct, John, Ronnie used head studs. Thanks for the additional "what to check". Been running around getting the other car back up and running. Super cold here, right now, and not sure if I can convince the wife to put the Burb in the garage for a few days. But it sure would be nice to work in some warmth!

[campionc]

Hey Robyn,

I just changed the water pump on mine and had a thought about this. Could it be a problem with the adapter plate behind the pump leaking one into the other?

Chris

[DennisG01]

Hey Robyn,

I just changed the water pump on mine and had a thought about this. Could it be a problem with the adapter plate behind the pump leaking one into the other?

Chris

Chris - interesting thought. Check out this thread, starting at post #31 - does this help explain anything? http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=39910&page=2

[campionc]

Good Lord, man! Looking at that post, all I can think of is that a MONKEY could have done a better job than that! :eek:

And I think Missy was right - looks like somebody just didn't want to get the $5 gasket set!

[Robyn]

WAY too much use of the silicone goop these days.

The only place I use goop only is the VC's.
On the pan I use the felpro gaskets, smear a thin film on the block and pan rails, then add a bit to the sharp corners at the rear main.

I have never had one leak, never.

The VC's are another story.

Clean and straighten the cover rails, wash/wipe with brake clean or equiv, then clean the head rails.

Goop the VC GOOD and stuff the cover/s on and lightly snug (key word is just past finger tight) let the goop cure overnight, then snug the bolts on down some.

They are good to go.

Sparingly is a good choice of words when using the sil goop.

Our 95 Burb has a heater issue as well.
The 454 has the water outlet in the back of the engine, but it could be a similar problem.

Summers coming
:):)

Missy

[Robyn]

Chris

There is a possibility on the water pump/timing chain case.

The back plate on the WP is the front cover for the case and if it gets a cavitation erosion hole, it can leak to the crank case.

Not likely though, buttttttttttttttttttttttt.

[DennisG01]

Sorry - lot's of things have been going on - truck has just been sitting and waiting for me.

Considering there was LOT'S of goop used, are the chances that there is a leak there at the water pump pretty slim?

I just pulled the truck into the garage so it'll be nice and warm for me tomorrow morning. Plan on checking to see wherever that valley weep hole is. Also changing the oil. I'll first pull the drivers side plugs and the other easy ones on the passenger's side and repeat that test that Missy had me do on #8. Figure it's easy enough and can't hurt.

[DennisG01]

If forgot to do the glow plug hole test before I dropped the oil out. But while the pan was empty with the oil pan plug still out I decided, just for the heck of it, to pressurize the coolant system again and see if anything comes out the oil pan plug hole.

-- The oil pan had been draining for about 3 hours with the front end of the truck jacked up slightly to help evac all the old oil.

-- I hooked up the pressure tester and pumped it up to about 16psi.

-- Within about 1 minute of pressurizing the system, I started seeing some thin oil drip out of the drain hole (remember, it had already drained for 3 hours). Then, about 15 seconds later it started turning a lighter color and the drips increased. Then a few seconds later it was a thin stream (not just drips) of orange coolant.

I'm thinking "crap", but what do any of you think?

EDIT: If I didn't mention it above, every oil analysis has also mentioned that there was high metal content.

-- Seeing as the coolant pressure is 16PSI, and the coolant was ending up in the oil when the engine was running (which is pumping at least 40PSI), that means the coolant must be making it's way into a lesser (than 16psi) pressure area, right? That's about as much as I can 'guess' though.

[john8662]

Lesser pressure area, crankcase area, the pan is NOT under oil pressure, just the oil passages and bearing journals.

Yep, coolant in the oil. Most likely leaking head stud as mentioned previously.

I'd pull the valve covers and perform the same pressure test looking at each stud for the culprit.

[DennisG01]

Well, I received a pleasantly surprising call last night. I had emailed Ronnie to ask if he had any insight into this problem and could also offer some suggestions, just as all of you have kindly been doing. Instead of just offering suggestions, he said that he'd like to have the engine back so he could fix it. He offered to cover the labor if I picked up the tab for the parts, with the initial thinking of it being head gaskets. He did mention the studs as a possibility, but mentioned that he'd be surprised if it was them given how he installed/sealed them.

I'm 7 years and 50K miles into owning this engine - way, WAY past any type of warranty. I can't tell you how astonished my wife and I were that he offered that! I would call this 'above and beyond the call of duty'! I knew when I initially bought this engine that I as dealing with a true gentleman, but this was extremely unexpected. We hear stories all the time of shysters and dishonest businessmen. It's nice to see that there's a flip side to that coin. Thank you, Mr. Schoolcraft.

[john8662]

Sounds like a gentleman indeed.

Would he let you remove the valve covers to check for head stud leaks?

They'll have to come off for head removal anyways, and at least this way you have the option of repairing verses all the R&R fun.

Either way, We'll be interested in knowing the root cause.

Me personally, I've had so much problem with leaking head studs that I don't consider them a viable option on these engines any more. I won't install them in custom engines I build for customers due to the uncertainty I have in them sealing. I don't know of a sure-fire way to keep them sealed long-term. I also have not seen any improvement in head gasket life in high performance applications with the studs either. There is a high tensile strength bolt option available now to replace the TTY bolts, this might be worth checking. The TTY/Factory bolts are also just fine IMHO.

Just my .02

I don't fault Ron for the leak in the engine, kind of the nature of the beast with some of these components.

I know he builds a fine engine and has top notch machining as well.

John

[DennisG01]

Hi John - he probably would and I can ask him.

[Scooby]

I am having a missing coolant issue of my own, and was wondering what you have found.

[DennisG01]

I am having a missing coolant issue of my own, and was wondering what you have found.

Ron Schoolcraft has some ideas that he wants to look at. He's just been busy and with a third car (although that one is starting to act up a little!), I haven't been in a rush.

Get an oil test kit (local CAT dealer or Blackstone Oil Labs, for example) and send that in. That'll tell you if the coolant is ending up in the oil, anyways. There's a bunch of good suggestions/ideas/thoughts throughout this thread. Try some of those suggestions, too.