replacement starter (pics)

[joeq]

My 6.2 starter has served me faithfully for years. (22 to be exact). Not that it hasn't had its issues. In the beginning it was broken bolts, till I replaced with the proper ones. Then they would loosen up and fall out, (a couple times, till I safety wired them). Then I installed a fwd support bracket from a Pontiac which secured the frt of the starter to the block. Went years W/O issue. Then I think a stator burned out, but fortunately I had a spare starter for parts. Which became a donor. Then there were 1 or 2 solenoids randomly that's to be expected. Most of the problems were in the 1st 5 years of ownership, with the solenoids crapping out equally spaced afterwards. But considering the abuse these starters must endure, (415lbs cranking compression, and cold starting), I've been impressed, for the most part with their performance.
Then yesterday, came out of a store, shopping for halloween candy, and when I actuated the starter, it made the most God awful grinding and clunking sound I've ever heard from a starter. Not your conventional spinning wildly from a missing tooth, or a simple click, click, from a bad connection, but a sound that can only emanate at Halloween. I was able to get it to connect 1 last time, and got her home on the lift. This is what I found, once I dropped it. A broken nose housing.
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb453/tajoe/83%20duelly/JDand62starter014_zps5a3e046d.jpg (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/tajoe/media/83%20duelly/JDand62starter014_zps5a3e046d.jpg.html)
Unfortunately my replacement starter also has a bad housing, so I figured I'ld bite the bullet, and buy a new starter. Because I can't afford the downtime, I purchased one locally from Auto-zone. Their replacement starter is one that I'm not 100% confident with. !st off, it's from China. 2ndly, it's nothing like the original. The mass just ain't there anymore. It's a wimpy looking "mini-stater" or something of the sort. Here's a side by side comparison.
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb453/tajoe/83%20duelly/JDand62starter013_zpse27312df.jpg (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/tajoe/media/83%20duelly/JDand62starter013_zpse27312df.jpg.html)
However, it does come with a "life-time" warranty, and is a receipt I will be hanging onto. The other thing that bugs me, is the location of the stud, on the frt of the starter, isn't in the same location as the original, and won't accept the fwd bracket, I really want on there. guess I'll have to chance it, and hope it doesn't rip the threads out of the rear mounting bolts. Here's the final installation. Doesn't it look "roomy"? It also has a very strange sound to it when operating. (Yeck. Got my fingers crossed on this one.) Think I'll hang on to my old one, and try and repair it. The price for the replacement? $200, brand new, no core. I'm not complaining about the price, but don't have a lot of faith in the life expectancy. We'll see.
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb453/tajoe/83%20duelly/JDand62starter015_zps2f14846a.jpg (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/tajoe/media/83%20duelly/JDand62starter015_zps2f14846a.jpg.html)

[DmaxMaverick]

You got a "modern" replacement for the 6.5L. They're OK, but nothing like the original. A local motor-generator shop should be able to fix up your old one, including the broken housing, for cheap (I hope you didn't turn it in as a core.... the broken core is worth more than your "new" replacement).

[edit]
It's a gear reduction starter. The reason for the missing mass. Also, it requires the matching front bracket. Get one for the 6.5, and it'll fit. Robyn put up the part numbers some time ago in the 6.5L forum.

[FallsGuyB]

As said, that's a gear reduction starter. It's a lot lighter then the direct drive, and a lot less money.

I'd be interested to hear if you like it. I've always had better luck with direct drives as the starting system ages, or if the batteries happen to be low, severe cold, etc.

[joeq]

If that's true, that it spins the engine slower, then I'll be fixing my old one soon. My truck doesn't start the best, even with the old starter. It spins easily, just doesn't always fire off quickly. Needs lots of glowplug action in the cold. I did just install a new heating element in the block, so I'm sure that'll help. I bought a different style heater this summer that fits into the lower radiator hose, but it crapped out in less than 2 months, or twice used. The junk we have presented to us these days.

[FallsGuyB]

The new starter is probably gonna feel like it cranks the motor faster compared to the years-old broken one. Seems like all new starters have some zing in em right out of the box. It's when they're broke in a little and it's cold outside that the real test comes.

[Dieselfume1]

IMO, everything I've ever put a gear reduction starter on was VASTLY improved over direct drive. Just think of it as your 6.2 having 4.10 gears behind it instead of 3.08s. easier on the starter, easier on the batteries, and the starter motor spins over faster to compensate for the gear reduction...They're never a bad investment IMO. It's just some don't last as long as others. China made products have gotten better in the past few years. not sure they're worth betting the farm on, but I'm much more confident in them than I used to be.

I may look into one for my 6.2 since winter is coming on, I don't know if my starter has ever been changed (suburban is new to me) and I haul the family around alot and don't want to be stuck in the cold with a broken housing....

It wouldn't be so bad if It didn't start so dang hard.. Putting in a glow override should help me some.

This is me saluting your old starter, you really got your money's worth out of her!

[joeq]

Thanx for the condolences, but I still have more faith in the old one. You know what they say. Bigger is better. At least in some circumstances. Like batteries with more capacity, a starter with more windings just flat out supplies more current. But I understand the principle of the gearing, and hope that the less torque on the housing will lessen the load on the starter bolts. Just not so confident of the speed, or reliability, once it acquires a few miles on it.
As for your problem with the glow plugs, I was tired of paying the exuberant prices for controllers, and hooked up a spring loaded switch, to actuate my glow plugs. Just bypassed the whole blooming controller. Have used it this way for quite a few years. It's kinda a pain, but beats the $150 for the replacement. Plus I feel it gives me a little more control. Sorta like a mechanical choke. (No I haven't put one on my 6.2)

[Liftgate]

I had issues with my direct drive starter on my 84 suburban with a 6.5 engine. I replaced the ends of the battery cables with direct soldered-on terminals and was still having issues. I replaced the solenoid and that was now sticking in the crank position. I found a newer, gear-reduction starter at a junk yard and got the front, nose bracket too and put it on and have been happy ever since. It was a Duralast Gold starter from autozone. Not bad for $35 plus a core charge. The gear reduction takes a lot of stress off the starter and reduces the current draw from the batteries. You and your engine will love it. Keep the battery terminals CLEAN. Let us know how things work out. :)

[Dvldog8793]

Howdy
I know it's been said a thousand times.....
MAKE SURE YOU INSTALL THE NOSE BRACKET....TIGHT
Make sure you use a NEW GM bolt set.
Torque the bolts, drive it for a week and retorque. I check my bolts every oil change.
Wires and connections are a huge issue...make sure they a in GREAT shape.
I have gear reduction starters on two vehicles and standard on one. I make an effort to buy American(or remaned at my local shop) and have had NO problems with anything. I think many of the starter issues people have is due to loose mounts and overseas quality.

[AKMark]

I found that when you have a SM465 transmission the bellhousing will not accept the gear reduction starter without extensive modification.

I had two new starters that I couldn't use. I sold them to get the old school one.

[joeq]

I think a piece of the broken nose housing is trapped between the flywheel and the block, cause since the failure, I hear it "unlodging" itself from where-ever it's caught, and bouncing around in the bellhousing. I keep waiting for it to fallout, but is stuck in there longer than I want it to be. It's done it about a half dozen times since the failure, and haven't heard it in the past couple days. Hopefully it's gone. I keep thinking it's gunna jam into my new starter and screw it up, but the flywheel spins opposite it. Fingers crossed.

[joeq]

Up-date Gentlemen,
Here we are, almost 6 mos later, and this is what I dealt with today. But 1st, I must say that most of the winter, the truck sat outside, dormant, for the most part. But I did have the block heater plugged in all winter, "just-in-case" I needed to get it started in a whim. Which actually happened in our frigid cold Feb. I needed to take it to work, cause my other 2 drivers wouldn't start because it was 2* outside. The truck started like it was 70*, and because I was able to plug it in at work, no problem getting home.
Fast fwd to spring. No more plugging it in, and it was about 50* this morning, colder during the night. I needed to go to a buddies house for our bi-annual swap meet, so I decided to take the diesel to "air it out". starting it was a nitemare, but finally got it to lite off. after a brief shutdown at my buddies house, I went to start it, and spit out 1 of the bolts. they were safety wired as you can see by the pics on the 1st page. It acually broke the inner bolt, and had happened to me many yrs ago, till I put in the frt bracket to the block.
So my question to you fine people is, does anyone know the GM P/N for the 6.5 bracket that some-one mentioned I needed? The original one doesn't work, and I'm not sure of the year bracket I need to fit this new gear driven starter. I'm not saying I don't like this starter, but I really don't believe it's spinning the eng. any faster, and has reduced the load. All it is, is cheaper and smaller. I want my old one back. (I do still have it, and should look on-line for parts to rebuild). But for now, I would like to find a 6.5 bracket. Thanx for any info.

[Dvldog8793]

Howdy
Had the same issue with my sons truck. His starter was physically damaged and unrebuildable otherwise I would have had it rebuilt. The bracket is un-available to my knowledge. My neighbor is a salvage yard and I couldn't even find one in the many 6.2/6.5s that he has. So we mounted the starter, made some measurements and fabbed up a bracket. It worked fine, got nice and tight. Making this bracket isnt that difficult.
IMHO...if you have a good electric motor shop close by, have them rebuild your old starter.
I have personally have mixed feelings about the gear reduction units....I have them on three rigs and they seem to be "OK"...but I KNOW that the old school starters worked great.
Good luck.

[Robyn]

GM (Part #23502557)

Starter support bracket.

[DmaxMaverick]

Use the part number Robyn posted. It's available, and your GM dealer can order it. $17 GM list, $10 at gmpartsdirect.com.

[joeq]

I knew I could count on you guys. Thanx a million for the info people.:)
I will get the bracket. My buddy has a friend at the parts counter, so hopefully he'll be able to drum one up. and "Dog", if I need to fab one, I will. I just don't want to have to bother, if I can find one available. But I will also be rebuilding the original. I couldn't believe the responses from the counter people, when I was looking for a replacement. It sort of went like this...:eek:
"Where did you find THAT?" Looks like something from the Titanic!"

[Dvldog8793]

FYI-
Not sure what part number it was, but when I tried to order the bracket it (or use the one I had) both were wrong and did not bolt up tight.
I had both brackets, 6.2 and 6.5 and neither fit to my liking...
Must have been the starter I had...but anyways....just be sure it bolts tight to the block and also does not pull on the starter.

[Robyn]

Here is an in depth write up I did on the starter stuff

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=43425&highlight=Dahooooley

[Kennedy]

I haven't had much starter or alternator grief on any of my equipment in recent years, but I am 100% loyal to my semi local rebuilder/friend. He treats me right and knows what to build and what to replace with new. Back when I had my '84 and '96 he did the starters for those and people often remarked that they sounded like they could flip the engine over in the truck if it wasn't bolted down.

As for Auto Zone and other similar "lifetime" guaranties, I find that they guarantee that you will spend a lifetime under the hood. Reminds me of my younger days where I thought it was great that I had a lifetime starter because that meant I would have a fresh one every year :rolleyes:

[Robyn]

I can't agree more on this one.

Starters and alternators from the big box parts houses are generally junk.

Yesss, they will get you going, but the life expectancy is pretty low.

The lifetime replacement warranties is ok on some things, but rebuilt stuff is shaky at best.

[joeq]

Robyn, this is a picture of the bracket for the 6.5. I don't understand the square hole. On my 6.2 block, my other bracket bolted to a boss cast into the block and accepted a 5/16 (?) threaded bolt which secured one end of the bracket. This bracket with the P/N you listed shows a square hole, to the block? And does the other end attach to the long armature screws sticking out the front of the starter? I'm not doubting your P/N, just trying to confirm the picture to be correct. It doesn't appear to line up the way the previous bracket did. Am I missing something?
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb453/tajoe/6.5%20bracket_zpsaolak11j.jpg (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/tajoe/media/6.5%20bracket_zpsaolak11j.jpg.html)

[Dvldog8793]

Howdy
I would expect the slotted hole is to make up for differences in starters and possible shimming. That way the bracket will still line up without tensioning the starter.
The round hole should line up with a bolt stud that is on the starter for that purpose.
This is the way that all the ones I have done are made. The only issue I have had is with the bolt hole on the block not lining up without putting stress on the starter when it was tightened. The slot should eliminate that problem.
I think on my truck it was a metric bolt.
Hope this helps!

[joeq]

Alright then Dog, I just double checked "visually" where the holes are located on the eng/starter, and if you're saying the square hole is nothing more than a "slot", for adjustability in the block boss, it looks like it might work. I'll order the part and give it a try. Thanx again for the input, and I'll keep every-one posted. Now I just need to figure out the bolt sizes.

[joeq]

Robyn,
I just read your tutorial on this starter dilemma and sheepishly or embarrassingly admit not reading it more thoroughly in the very beginning. I believe I was under the impression I had some time before it became an issue. Man, was I wrong, and you and Dog were right on from the get go.

[Robyn]

The square hole is the result of the little weezle that drew the pick was too lazy to show the slightly rounded ends of the slot.

The factory parts have an oblong hole on the block end of the brkt.

Get one and bolt it on.

The 6.2 may have 5/16 threads, but any later stuff 6.2/6.5 are metric.

IIRC a 5/16 will fit, but the hole is actually metric.

The only US standard threads on these engine were the bell housing, and then only up to about 96, then they switched to metric as well.

Stuff the bracket on the starter, screw the nut on and then lay the bracket to the block.
Thread in the bolt and lightly snug it.

Tighten the nut on the starter stud, then tighten the bolt on the block.

Done deal

[Robyn]

What style truck ??? Year ???

The GMT 400 (88-99)
Access the starter by removing the RH FRONT WHEEL and the rubber inner fender flap.

Starter support bracket is right there.

Sit on a box and wrench on it.

BLOCK THE RIG SAFELY :)

[joeq]

This is what my truck looked like a few yrs ago, (1993). waiting for me to hang the final trim. Doesn't look like this anymore. But you get the idea. my Chinese starter doesn't have a stud sticking out of the top, just a threaded hole. I'll find a bolt for it somewhere. Thanx again Miss Robyn.
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb453/tajoe/83%20duelly/62truck_zps398356dd.jpg (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/tajoe/media/83%20duelly/62truck_zps398356dd.jpg.html)

[joeq]

Well, the support bracket worked perfectly like Robyn said, and I wish I had it sooner. I "highly" recommend it, (as Robyn and the others stated) when doing this conversion. (For the three of you who might be reading this thread.)