Rattle and bang!

[jcbellco]

Yesterday while merging onto the freeway at about 60 mph, I heard a rattle, followed by a bang, followed by a cloud of black smoke, followed by all of my oil and coolant falling out of my oil pan. Three huge holes blown out the bottom of the pan. So, I pretty much know that my truck threw a rod and destroyed the block :mad: (And I just put $3,000 into new tires and all new front end components last week!)

I just towed it into the local GM dealer to have the damage assessed and repairs estimated. The pain is still raw and I'm still undecided if I should replace the motor or scrap the truck.

My problem is, the truck had pretty much everything I ever wanted in a 6.5, short of a gear splitter. I'm not sure if the dealer can even replace what I had with a good aftermarket long block or if they can even replace it at all.

If I can get it replaced, any suggestions on engine supplier, warnings or advice on getting this work done, anything? I'm at a lost and sooo bummed.

[Robyn]

If the truck is good, I would look at an AMG optimizer 6500
Direct drop in and its got all the updates in the block and heads.

Use your accessories, IP, injectors, manifolds etc.

The aftermarket is sketchy


Missy

[jcbellco]

Cool. Thanks Missy. The truck is awesome. Super clean and no problems until yesterday. It's been my baby.

Can I order one direct from AMG (American General, I assume?)? Any suggestions on where/who to have do the removal/install? The truck is at a dealership now ... seems like they should be able to handle it.

Since I get a fresh start, is it safe to assume that 18:1, no vacuum, no EGR, etc is still the way to go?

[scottm]

The factory gm replacement engine the dealer would put in will be an amg optimizer. Part of the deal when gm sold the 6.5 to amg was they had to supply replacement engines. It will be pretty expensive getting it done though the dealership. Another option would be a used optimizer from Ted's trucks, and swap it in yourself.

[jcbellco]

Well the stealership wants $16,000 to replace the engine. They won't do just a long block though, they will only do it if I replace the injection pump and turbo with it. The local diesel performance shop will install a long block for $4000 labor plus parts. Looks like the AMG long block is about $8000 so I'm looking at $12k!

Are reman engines worth it? Is a long block worth it? The truck is so nice I hate to scrap it but it's not worth the $12k either ... :(

[Kennedy]

We deal with AMG long blocks and are considerably less than $8k. I wouldn't trust much of anything else.

[jcbellco]

We deal with AMG long blocks and are considerably less than $8k. I wouldn't trust much of anything else.

Good news! I will be calling then! I really don't want to scrap the truck and I am finding out that a 454 swap is just as expensive as the $12k long block option.

Thanks a lot everyone for the help!

[DmaxMaverick]

I would suggest shopping around for other good shops. $4000 is pretty steep for only R/R labor. About 1/2 that may be acceptable. They aren't that bad to R/R. Many shops add a significant "premium", just because it has a D on the label. The 6.5L is no more difficult or time consuming than any big block. Easier, in many respects, for that model year.

[Robyn]

I agree 100% with Maverick

An R&R on a 6.5 is no biggy.

I have personally done 4 of these, and they are just about the same work as a standard gasser.

The only one that might be a tad easier would be a mouse motor (350) and only because it is slightly smaller physically, and a tad easier to get to some things.

Anybody that makes a deal of the diesel thing is just being an ass.

It is a V8 engine.

Missy

[jcbellco]

Any experience with Jasper "running complete" engines?

[jcbellco]

Well I found a shop that will do the long block for $2000 to $2200. They don't specialize in diesels but they seem knowledgable and professional. Any words of wisdom finding a shop to do this?

[DmaxMaverick]

Any experience with Jasper "running complete" engines?

Jasper doesn't source or sell AMG long blocks, so they will either be recycled junk or Chinese (counterfeit) castings. I never could understand why or how Jasper became so popular. I have yet to see a good one. I saw a "good" Target, once.

[trbankii]

I never could understand why or how Jasper became so popular.

In the same way that McDonald’s, WalMart, and any other became popular - go for quantity over quality to a market that isn’t expecting quality in the first place...

[jcbellco]

10-4. Jasper sounded too good to be true anyway.

Any words of advice on a shop to do the long block swap? Is it necessary to go to a diesel specialist?

[DmaxMaverick]

A "Diesel specialist" is NOT required. Any competent mechanic will have no problems. All the important parts are in the same place as a gasser, and the remainder of the "Diesel" parts are obvious and only fit one way (with only a couple exceptions). The timing set, balancer and water pump can be tricky, but it's nothing that isn't covered in any 6.2L manual. Basically, if the parts are swapped over in the same manner, it's not complicated. Not a factor if you source an AMG cover-to-pan block.

[jcbellco]

Cool. That's the feeling I had. I'd probably do this myself if I had the space

[Yukon6.2]

Cool. That's the feeling I had. I'd probably do this myself if I had the space
Living where you are,can't you work outside this time of year?
You could have everything ready to pull the motor and hire a tow truck or similar to lift the old motor out.
Then switch the parts to ready the new motor then have the guy comeback and drop it back in.Save yourself a butt load of coin.
Thomas

[rustyk]

I'd avoid Jasper; they just don't have a good reputation. I called them about a rebuilt short block and got a runaround about what they do on a rebuild.

When I stopped for minor repair at a large shop in Baltimore, they had a second defective Jasper rebuilt sitting on a pallet - both had been installed in the same truck, and neither made it to the driveway.

So I got a "long-short" AMG engine from Peninsular Engines for $8,200 in '06. It came complete with turbo, IP, and injectors (uprated to 230 HP). The manifolds and accessories came from the old engine. The price included installation of a Phazer gear drive.

Installation on my diesel pusher motorhome at a local shop was $2,100 and that entailed digging a hole, dropping the old engine and hoisting the new one into place, much more involved than R&R on a truck.

[jcbellco]

Living where you are,can't you work outside this time of year?
You could have everything ready to pull the motor and hire a tow truck or similar to lift the old motor out.
Then switch the parts to ready the new motor then have the guy comeback and drop it back in.Save yourself a butt load of coin.
Thomas

Yes, days are pretty nice still. I just don't want to do this big of a project on the street. I may be able to fit it in the garage with enough room to work. I'm definitely considering it. I have several friends that are professional mechanics at the mines nearby that could help too. I'm waiting for another quote on labor and then I'll make up my mind. Mostly trying to decide if $2k is worth not having the hassle.

[jcbellco]

Any thoughts on replacing sensors? OPS seems like an obvious one. Others? What about the lift pump? Any other must-do's or should-do's when spending close to $7,000 on a new block?
Again, thanks to everyone for all the help and advice.

[jcbellco]

Any thoughts on replacing sensors?

Nevermind. For roughly $250 in parts, it's a no-brainer to replace the sensors. Of course motor mounts, injectors, glows, water pump, belts, hoses will all be replaced as well. My complete list with estimated prices is:

Exhasut Manifolds, MACHINED flat $??
Exhaust Manifold Bolts, NEW $20
Glow plugs, NEW, AC Delco 60G $112
Injectors, REMAN, standard flow $420
Radiator Hoses, NEW $72
Serpentine belt, NEW $52
Water Pump, NEW, 140 gpm $100
Block Heater, NEW, freeze plug type $64
Oil Cooler Lines, NEW, prefer braided upgrade type $140
Motor Mounts $80
Oil Pressure Switch, NEW $35
Intake Air Sensor, NEW $32
ECM Coolant Temp Sensor, NEW $27
Gauge Coolant Temp Sensor, NEW $27
Crankshaft Position Sensor, NEW $52
Fuel Lift Pump, NEW $60
Lift Pump Relay, NEW $20
Fuel Filter, NEW $16
Oil + Filter, NEW $32
Transmission Fluid and Filter, NEW $120
Antifreeze $20
Long Block, NEW $6-7k
Long Block, Freight $500-ish
Labor $2,200-ish

For a grand total of $10,451 (ish). Plus a re-tuned chip ($300). I realize that some of these may be "optional," but it seems like stepping over dollars to pick up pennies when I'm spending $7k on a new block and $2k on labor. Thoughts and opinions are welcome, however.

[phantom309]

INMHO,..

sensors are a crap shoot,. they work ,. they don;t,.. no direct relationship between hrs of service and reliability,.

its always nice to have new everything,. then its twice as aggravating when the new part fails prematurely,.

I personally would use everything off the old running engine,.

I,d get the injectors tested/flow checked/balanced,.

If the mounts are not squashed,. i,d re use them,.

If the exhaust manifolds weren't leaking,. then they don't need machining, more like a quick scratch over with a nice coarse mill bastard file to see if they are flat,.

i can switch motors in about 8 hrs by my self,..add a couple of hours if i have to undress one motor and dress the other,.

so at $90.00hr i figure $1500 labour max,.

As i said its nice to have all new stuff,.. but is it all necessary,..??

Might as well do what you want,. you're gonna anyway. ;)

[jcbellco]

INMHO,..

I,d get the injectors tested/flow checked/balanced,.

Where would I get injectors tested, flow checked, and balanced? I don't think there is a local shop that can do that. My injectors are only a year old and have 5k miles on them. If they weren't the cause of the failure, I'd rather reuse them for now.

What are the opinions on testing used injectors, buying good quality remanufactured, or new Bosch injectors? I'm going from 18:1 to standard 21:1 with my new motor. My injectors are currently "marine" injectors. Would I need to change them anyway with the higher compression. Obviously a new chip tune goes along with all of this too.

A lot of other stuff on my list to replace were upcoming maintenance items anyway (other than sensors, which just seem worth it for around $250). Belt was looking worn, hoses don't seem wise to reuse, oil cooling lines were already leaking, block heater didn't seem to do much and was due to be replaced by a lower hose type anyway, motor mounts are looking pretty worn, etc. I'd probably be better off buying a new lift pump and sensors and throwing them in the tool box for spares, though.

[jcbellco]

I have a feeling I might be stirring up a hornet's nest, but I have to ask:

Any experience or first hand knowledge of the "Brand New SSDiesel Supply Long Block engine"? It has identical specs as the AMG/GEP engine, but goes for $1500 less ...
Again, seems too good to be true but I had to ask. I am fairly certain I will buy an AMG long block. I DEFINITELY do not want to do this again!

[rapidoxidationman]

It's been a while since I lived in the world of the 6.5, but isn't there a high flow dual thermostat setup that can be installed? Might be a nice option on a higher output engine.

Edit: What about your radiator? This would be a good time to have it cleaned by a radiator shop. Cheap protection for your new engine (and maybe even required to maintain any warranty on the new block).

[Kennedy]

I am a very big advocate of milling the exhaust manifolds flat. They will always be warped and often pitted etc. Manifolds seal to the heads via metal to metal and sealing is important.

Milling the manifolds is building out the foundation.

If the injectors only have 5k on them they may well be good, but this whole "marine" thing enters in a question of quality and what they REALLY are???

Most of the sensors will be fine to transfer over, they seldom go bad. OPS swap out is a no brainer though. ECT and IAT sensors on a wire wheel and they look like new again if aesthetics concerns you.

Start your new engine with distilled water only in the cooling system. If you end up having a leak or need to do rework it's a lot less messy this way. Once the project has passed the shakedown test and you are confident that all is well you can do coolant swap.

[Yukon6.2]

Hi jcbellco
I haven't had anything to do with SSDiesel Supply.But i have read about them on this site,you should really make sure you want to send them money before you take that leap.
I would go with the AMG/GEP option.The specs may be the same but the product probably isn't.
Save a little money by reusing your original sensors and buy the real thing from AMG.Sensors are easy to replace if and when they go bad.But if that offshore block breaks,or offshore crank or heads take a dump you will be back were you are now with out any support from offshore.
Thomas

[trbankii]

I would go with the AMG/GEP option.The specs may be the same but the product probably isn't.

That pretty much sums it up. If it isn’t a documented AMG/GEP block, it isn’t the same.

[jcbellco]

Thanks fellas. I figured as much. I'll be ordering an AMG/GEP here shortly. Just need to wait for another pay check or two ... :)

This project is definitely going to be done right. I'd rather spend $10k and have something good than spend $8k and be in the same situation a year from now.

I'll be getting the manifolds machined as JK recommended, as well as new injectors. I've been assuming this swap will necessitate a re-tune, but is that true? The major changes will be going from 18:1 to 21:1 and going to stock injectors (rather than "marine"). Everything else should be the same.

[john8662]

Good idea on machining the exhaust manifolds. They erode badly on Ports 6 and 8 and need to be machined to bring them to serviceable condition. They have to be machined on a mill because of the angle of the ports relative to the turbo port. Most surfacing of exhaust manifolds involves a big belt sander, can't do that on the turbo side manifold

JK has a good machinist that can do this. I've sent my own manifold to him for this purpose.

Gaskets are only so-so with the exhaust pressure these have when under boost. Most manifolds are so badly pitted the gaskets don't seal anyways.

I don't see a reason to retune. The injectors and compression ratio will make a difference in performance overall, but the tunes aren't calibrated for these two differences. They're just fuel, timing and air/turbo calibration and transmission shift firmness.

John

[jcbellco]

Great. Thanks John.

[john8662]

Don't sweat the sensor replacements. 90% of the time these are transferred with no issue. A knowledgeable installer will know after the installation if they check using a scan tool if the sensors are performing as expected. The OPS - Oil Pressure switch should always be replaced with a new AC Delco D1808A. Any sensor replaced should really be replaced with a OE Sensor, like AC Delco. Aftermarket tends to add additional error into the equation.

As for the injectors. I do volume with a local fuel shop that does my performance work and I test injectors during engine R&R's. If any question as to the origin of the injectors, we take apart one and identify the nozzle make/model after testing it. If we agree with the guts, the injector assembly is cleaned, lapped, and re-assembled using new heat shield/washer, and pop tested to verify working again. No biggie really.

John

[ginger743]

Hi JC ,
I answered your PM, however I can't tell if my reply went out or not. Did you receive my reply ?
Jerry near Las Vegas

[jcbellco]

Any opinions out there on how necessary or beneficial it is to swap in a Phazer gear drive on a new Optimizer?

I'd like to do whatever I can within reason to prolong the life of my investment, without throwing money away.

Also, what's the deal with "new" Bosch injectors? Why are they so cheap? Do they not include nozzles or something? Looks like I can get a full set for around $320 from Summit Racing or Jegs.