primary filter

[joeq]

When I 1st purchased my 83 C-30, (20 yrs ago), it was missing the primary filter. My father-in-law, (being an ex diesel mech.) recommended I replace it, due to fuel being so dirty. A co-worker gave me an extra one he had laying around, and I gave it a try. "temporarily", (20 yrs ago). I planned on finding the "correct GM filter", but never followed up on it. Just kept replacing the one given to me. I was told it was a common "agricultural" one, and is listed in the Napa books as a 3370. Being solid glass, and the element not being replaceable, figured it would be an expensive piece, but turns out, it's not bad.($15-$20). I kinda like the fact it's clear, so it allows me to keep up (visually) on the water in the fuel system, and if there's "actually" fuel going to my IP.(When problems occur.) In 20 yrs, I've only put about 50K on the truck, and have changed the filter about 3-4 times. I'm feeling hard pressed to go find the OEM style, when this one seems to perform OK. Any opinions on this set-up from you you pros out there?
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb453/tajoe/filter_zps4747bfad.jpg (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/tajoe/media/filter_zps4747bfad.jpg.html)

[More Power]

The 1982-84 fuel filter system was comprised of two filters - a firewall mounted primary and an intake manifold mounted secondary. The firewall mounted filter was fairly easy to replace, but the intake manifold filter was a bitch - both in the difficulty of the actual replacement process and because it couldn't be easily bled.

I recommend using a single fuel filter, either a factory 6.5L fuel filter assembly (like new take-off versions are available inexpensively from www.peninsulardiesel.com (http://www.peninsulardiesel.com) or email me -I have a few) or buy a Racor. The following link will show you how to install a Racor.
http://www.thedieselpage.com/features/leefilt.htm

Jim

[joeq]

Thanx for the tip Jim. So you're saying if I buy a Racor, I can eliminate my secondary filter? I currently am running both, but as you mentioned the 2nd one is a pain, (kinda). The Racor has the ability to capture what my primary "and" secondary are trapping? I'm all for simplicity, if it works.

[Vin82k3500]

question is there an advantage to the electric lift pump I didn't quite understand all that I read from Dr Lee's artical sorry if Im a little slow

I am using the 84 style filter that is on the firewall the most common filter I have seen on these trucks my first engine had originally had the 2 filter setup but was converted to the 6.5 setup

I didnt like that very much because it was to hard for me to change it in a parking lot unless I had a milk crate to stand on

I am running the mechanical pump and really thought it was superior to the electric pump why I dont know it just works but I think I caught that it could leak fuel into my 12000 dollar engine

the laughing matter is just this past month I had to replace the lift pump because it was not supplying the injection pump with enough fuel

I was told I should put an electric pump on it but it just didnt seem practical

maybey I should have upgraded can that racor filter be mounted in the same place that the 6.2 filter is now where I can change it easily

[More Power]

Going electric has a number of advantages. 1-You can use it to prime a new filter. 2- Electric fuel lift pumps are easier to replace if need be. 3- It uncomplicates fuel line routing if using the Banks Sidewinder turbo system.

Where you mount a non-stock fuel filter should take into account where you live and ease of maintenance. GM considered those of us who live in cold climates when they designed the fuel supply/filter systems. That's why they incorporated fuel heaters and located the filter bases on/near the engine. Since 1986 when I first bought a GM diesel equipped pickup, I've never experienced gelled fuel even during the coldest Montana winter.

I believe GM originally incorporated two filters in its first 6.2L powered vehicles because they wanted to use a water separator and coarse filter as a primary. That filter was easy to access - to change or to drain water, though I have never experienced water in fuel. The finer (smaller micron) secondary filter was tucked down behind the intake manifold to keep it warm during the winter - and making it hard to service. I originally took my 6.2 to mechanics to change the secondary filter, till I learned they knew less about it than I did. Burning out starters trying to start an airlocked diesel is not cool.

The early 6.2 diesel fuel systems used a fuel line heater located midway between the mechanical lift pump and the secondary fuel filter. It was thermostatically activated by an internal temp switch at +20F or colder, the gell point for summer #2 diesel fuel. Later GM factory fuel filter asemblies incorporated an internal heater that activated automatically at the same temp whenever 12v ignition power was available.

Jim

[Vin82k3500]

does the pump have to be under the truck by the tank or can it be in the engine bay because my mechanical pump is cake to change side of engine 2 bolts 2 hoses no dirt on my back no laying under the truck getting fuel in my face

never had an issue with priming new filters or air lock guess I need more training on the newer setups with electric lift pumps because in my head it dont add up

seems to me if the engine is not running its not pumping fuel and the slower the engine turns the less fuel it pumps faster it turns more fuel it pumps like they all work together but I am confused I guess

how is it regulated that is what I dont understand but I guess its not an issue I understand it would be relay controlled by key on power I had considered this when I bough the banks setup for my truck but I am not sure if I am gonna use it or resell it

but can they both be mounted where its convienent to replace for the driver like they are nowI agree with you on taking it to a mechanic and finding out they know less about the truck than you do

its terrible with mine they think its gas it dont sound like a diesel so that fools them even more plus with the 5 speed conversion and the fact it didnt come with a diesel you have no idea how bad they can be or maybe you do

[Vin82k3500]

are the racors easy to buy on the road that is an advantage with my current setup there around 20 bucks at carquest

[DmaxMaverick]

Filter choices aside, consider the fuel pump seriously. If you go with electric, you'll also need a fail-safe, of some sort (required by law, and common sense). The electric pumps don't stop pumping fuel when the engine quits (such as after a collision), so some interrupt needs to be in place. The OPS (oil pressure switch) is the most common on older vehicles, but it has drawbacks. Electronic solutions are expensive, but more reliable.

Mechanical pumps don't make priming easier. But, they run when the engine is turning, and don't need any fail-safe. Having both is the ideal solution, with the mechanical doing the work, and the electric on stand-by.

[More Power]

Some electric fuel lift pumps are better at pushing than pulling. If you're experimenting with some unknown pump, try to find the engineering data to find out if the pump should be located near the tank or near the engine.

To make life simpler, I recommend the factory 6.5L electric fuel lift pump. It's easy to find most anywhere and is designed to deliver the right fuel pressure. The 6.5 lift pump is located midway between the tank and engine compartment, tucked inside the frame rail. Like Greg mentioned, I'd power it though an oil pressure switch, and a push-button switch to make it easy to prime new filters. Kennedydiesel.com can supply you with an oil pressure switch that can be Tee'ed into the fitting used by your existing oil pressure sensor - or use one of the plugged/threaded ports in the block located above the oil filter mount.

No matter what fuel filter you are using, you should have a brand new replacement filter sitting at the ready behind/under the seat or in your emergency kit. This way, locating a replacement while on the road is a mute point. Jim

[joeq]

The most "notorious" comment I've heard from this thread is from you Jim. You stated you've "never" had water in your fuel? I thought it was one of those unforeseen consequences of diesel fuel. that's why we've got a water in fuel lite on our dashes. The 1st few yrs of ownership of my truck, it would quit running in winter time weather. My father-in-law commented it sounded like water, but I told him my water in fuel lite always went out after starting. Turns out both tanks had gallons in them, when I changed them out a few yrs after. Condensation? Who knows. He said to run isopropal whenever refueling, so I try and keep up on it. Haven't had those nasty experiences anymore, (thank God), but then again, I don't drive it much in the winters. If it's not plugged in it won't start, period.
I also agree with running both pumps, as mentioned, mostly for ease of priming. I mounted my elect. AC pump, on top of my frame, pass. side. Easy to change, (Only once...1st time, this yr, in 20.) Pressure is stock, approx. 6-7 psi, and has never been an issue.
As for my Racor filter question. Will it replace both my primary and secondary effectively?
PS Hopefully the elect. pump is visible in this pic. It's down low, under the firewall.
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb453/tajoe/electpmp_zpsf0e0f724.jpg (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/tajoe/media/electpmp_zpsf0e0f724.jpg.html)

[More Power]

The most "notorious" comment I've heard from this thread is from you Jim. You stated you've "never" had water in your fuel?

Notorious? (definition: Famous or well known, typically for some bad quality or deed.)

I hope that's not me.... :(

When changing fuel filters (and I've changed a bunch in 27 years), I always open the water drain valve to drain what fuel is in the filter to avoid spilling so much when I remove the filter.

Not once.... Not once during all this time have I seen any water.

Now, if you live in wetter areas of the country, like Seattle or the southeast, you could very likely see water in fuel at some point. Whether accumulating moisture due to humidity, rain getting into a fuel station storage tank or flooding, it could happen. I live in a dry area of the country. We get an average of 17 inches of rainfall annually, and humidity is almost always below 50% - usually much lower.

The recommendation to always buy your fuel at high volume fuel dealers remains your best bet to avoid contaminated fuel.

Now, I have gotten a couple bad tanks of fuel during the past that were contaminated with either sediment, metal particles or some sort of junk. As a result, I needed to change 2-3 sets of fuel filters within a couple hundred miles to get back to normal. But, no water....

Jim

On edit: Diesel fuel injection system manufacturers strongly object to fuel treatments that absorb water (usually containing an alcohol of some sort). In high pressure fuel injection systems, water molecules can result in the formation of micro steam events, which can etch injector nozzles or pumping plungers. GM recommends that any water treatments be of the sort that encourages separation, so it can be drained.

[john8662]

on your fuel filter, I would leave what you got.

Sounds like it's a good deal as you can see the water in the filter element. Can't do that with the OEM one, you have to do a simple drain to see that.

J

[joeq]

Notorious? (definition: Famous or well known, typically for some bad quality or deed.)
I hope that's not me.... :(
.

LOL.Sorry Jim, you're very observant. What I meant to say was "notable"?
Anyway, consider yourself lucky living in a dry climate. We're not as bad as Wash. state, but our humidity can be oppressive at times, not to mention our crappy winters. I used to see small amounts of water in my primary filter, but it wasn't till the end of my fuel tanks life that it appeared to be accumulating. Since I installed the new tanks, (about 10 yrs ago), and have been using Isopropal alcohol, I haven't seen any more water. but you're telling me this is a "no no" by factory standards? Great...the only time I find something that seems to be beneficial, and I need to change it up. Can anyone recommend an additive that will achieve similar results, w/o damage to the system?

[NH2112]

I'm with Jim, go with a single filter for the sake of convenience. A Racor 445R with R45S 2-micron element will work just fine, and I doubt there are any filter brands you're more likely to find while on the road somewhere. The 445R has a clear bowl with a drain for draining contaminants, and it has a primer pump for filter changes and pumping out contaminants.



The most "notorious" comment I've heard from this thread is from you Jim. You stated you've "never" had water in your fuel? I thought it was one of those unforeseen consequences of diesel fuel.

Over the past 15 years and 4 diesels I've only had my WIF light come on in the past month or so, maybe a dozen times and all related to the following incident. Warning: this is long!



At work the filters and tanks on our fuel trucks and farm have a couple gallons drained every day and checked for water and/or other contaminants. Clean fuel is poured into a reclaim tank, dirty goes into a waste barrel. Due to the requirements of the Clean Water Act the containers have to be labeled with their contents, and we're limited as to how much we can store on the premises. So, the clean Jet A is put into barrels labeled "usable fuel (Jet A)" and dumped into our waste oil furnace. Mislabeled containers are a very serious violation if caught. The fuel is also available for our use in trucks, tractors, whatever, especially when the furnace tanks are full as they usually are in the summer. So, there's the background.

Friday night I was going to NH for the weekend, so when I saw a new barrel of "usable fuel (Jet A)" in our secondary containment area I was happy that I wouldn't be paying for any fuel that weekend. Both my tanks were at about 1/4, so after my shift I brought the truck into the shop and topped off both tanks. I drove out of the shop into the parking lot, and wasn't even all the way out of the perimeter fence when the engine bogged and died - maybe 10-15 seconds of running. I figured I'd been low enough in 1 tank to suck air so I cranked again. Nothing. That's when I started thinking "oh, S!" I grabbed a 1 pint fuel sample jar, drained half a pint from the filter, and it looked something like egg drop soup. Just as a formality I took one of our hydro test kits (to check for dissolved/emulsified water in Jet A) and tested what I'd drained. After all, mixed hydraulic oil and Jet A would look something like what I had. Nope. The hydro test kit has a powder in the vial that turns the fuel pink in the presence of water, the pinker the more water. This stuff turned so pink it was almost red. Someone had put contaminated fuel in a "usable fuel (Jet A)" barrel so they wouldn't have to find and label a new barrel. So I got a ride home and would go back in the morning.

Next morning I started siphoning the tanks. When they were as empty as I could get them I put clean diesel in, drained the fuel filter and left the drain open, stuck my air nozzle in the filler neck and sealed it with a rag, and blew lightly till liquid came out of the drain. Once I got all diesel (slightly cloudy) I switched tanks and did it again. A pint of Prist (jet fuel biocide/water dispersant used in a 1000:1 ratio in jets) per tank, 3 crank cycles, and she started. She ran rough for a bit but soon smoothed out, and I let it run on the front tank for about 20 minutes. The WIF light was on after this time so I shut down and drained maybe 6oz of cloudy water & slime from the filter. I decided to head home, on the 12 mile drive I had to stop to drain water once, and the WIF light came on just before I got home too. I drained maybe 12oz of water the first time and 6-8 the second. Later I drove around for 15-20 minutes until the light came on, went home, and drained another 4-6oz. The next day I went to my parents' place about 30 miles away, I had to stop to drain halfway there and again when I got to their house. That night when I was going home I went the whole way without a WIF light, so on my way to work Monday morning I flipped to the rear tank for 5 seconds then back to the front. Within a minute the WIF light came on. I drained at work, and did it again on the way home, with similar results. This morning I had to change tanks for 2 5-seconds intervals to get a WIF light, and on my way home today I went 15 seconds in all without getting a light from rear tank fuel. Just now I ran it on the rear tank for 5 minutes without getting a light, and when I drained the filter afterward there were only small droplets of water in the jar. So I'm about to head out for another drive to see how long I can go, but I think I got the majority of the contaminants out of the tank. Come payday I'll be topping off again to further dilute whatever is left.

So this brings me to the second part of my thread title [Got a load of bad fuel the other day (Jet A), or...] - "...why I like the very tolerant of stupidity DB2 injector pump!" I've seen Bosch, Lucas, and Delphi pumps damaged and need repair from less water than mine ran through it. If you're getting fuel from ANY place beside an actual fuel station, make sure you know what you're getting. I had absolutely no excuse for what happened to my truck, it would have taken a minute to draw a small sample from the "usable fuel (Jet A)" barrel and run a hydro test, which would have told me it was NOT "usable fuel (Jet A.)"

ETA the whole process took me about 6 hours on Saturday, whenever I started getting clean(ish) diesel from the filter I'd just let the tank settle for a while and the water would coalesce again and I'd be back to getting crap out of the drain. And I didn't even do as much for the rear tank, I was tired of being at the shop and since the engine was running on the front tank I called it good enough for now.

[joeq]

Wow Phil, talk about a raw deal. How many times have you experienced the problem with jet A that warranted a test? Has anyone "fessed up" to the mislabled barrel? Probably not.
At least your WIF light came on. In the beginning yrs of ownership of my 6.2, the only time I had a light was on initial start-up, then it would fade away. So I always "assumed" the system was working properly. However, many times the 1st 2 winters, the truck left me stranded on the side of the road, with what was probably frozen fuel lines. I never though of it as WIF, cause my lite never came on. But a few yrs later, while replacing my rusty tanks, I found almost 5 gals of water in 1 tank, and 1-2 in the other. Yet my lite never felt it. Winter driving has been reliable since.(tho I don't drive it much)
I've heard it's better to keep more fuel in the tank than less, because condensation develops more in a low tank, than 1 with a full one. It makes sense to me, but a buddy of mine thinks it "poppy-cock". Any truth to it?

[NH2112]

The "Water In Fuel" sensor only picks up water that makes it to the fuel filter. With the 84-up filters (Stanadyne Model 80, Wix 33136), the probe is at the bottom of the filter and IIRC will turn on the WIF light when about an ounce of water has collected. It's a pretty foolproof setup, the WIF light coming on during cranking is a test of the system so you know it's working. The Navistar 7.3l diesel in my F350 is very similar to the 6.2l, with the main difference being it's a much more heavy-duty design. It uses the DB2 injector pump, glow plug controllers are very similar (the earlier 6.9l used a controller similar to the 82-84 6.2l and the 7.3l is like the 85-93), and for much greater ease of maintenance the injectors and glow plugs are at the intake manifold side of the heads. As I mentioned above I've had the [Water In Fuel] light come on, and the [Fuel Filter] light came one once on my way to work and I barely made it home to change it. So I trust the setup on my 7.3l completely, if there's a fuel problem the system will pick it up in time to avoid damage.

As far as my fuel problem I did mention it to both my boss and the fuel manager, but only in passing. The last thing I wanted to do was come across as if I was entitled to clean fuel - that would just lead to us being told it was no longer available and punishments for anyone caught taking it. And, like I said, I had the most to lose so I really should have tested it. So I made absolutely certain they knew I was NOT complaining, but rather just relating an experience.