More Injector Problems

[Dustdevil1]

03 Duramax Crewcab 4x4LS. 114k miles, well maintained, Nicktane 2micron fuel filter and K&N air filter are the only mods. Injectors replaced at 44k miles and 59k miles. It's that time again. This is one of the problem children when it comes to injectors. GM has decided no warranty, but they will apply a commercial warranty on 15% of the total, which is just under $5k.

Options are to have them do it, do it myself, or have an independent shop do it. EIther way, it will have to wait a bit, as I am not prepared to plow $5k into this thing right now. Especially after dropping $1k into a vacuum pump and failed EGR hardware. So, I'm wondering if someone has some advice on this. Specifically, wondering:

1. Does anyone know of an appeals process at GM for a decision by a District Specialist?
2. Would the Ca lemon law apply to this?
3. If I did this myself, where might I get a new balance test and a report after reassembly?
4. Are there any brand new injectors left of this series, are they all remans, and where is a good place to purchase them?
I have read these threads till my eyes are buggy, and it seems opinions vary all over the place. Thanks, in advance, for any advice you may have. I am in Orange County, Ca.

[DmaxMaverick]

I feel your pain, somewhat. I've had the injectors replaced under warranty on my 2001 a couple times, and now am dealing with it again. I was, no doubt, okie-doked on the last one. Less than 20K on the last replacement, and I'm seeing the same exact symptoms as before, same cylinders, same values. I can check my balance rates, among the other important parameters, and have the exact values I had before. The dealer was a long time friend (30+ years), but they thought the Duramax specialist was too slow, so they got a new (younger) one. I'll take slow and thorough over quick and useless, any day. Well, I think the last job wasn't a replacement, at all. I left the dealership with only slightly less of a problem I brought in. I think they did a "cleaning" job, and sent it out (and billed for 8 replaced injectors). I'll be doing my own, this time. I'm only a couple hundred miles north of you, S/E of Fresno.

[Dustdevil1]

If they had come up with a solution that lasts 100k reliably, I would not mind so much. But they are putting band-aids on the thing. They clearly have the technology to fix this once and for all, as evidenced by their later designs of injectors. But they have evidently calculated that it is not worth the investment.

[DmaxMaverick]

I agree. You might think GM learned a lesson with Stanadyne.

[DmaxMaverick]

Just had a thought....

Being you have a 2003 CA emission model, it may be possible to swap in an LLY top end. Your engine is only a step away from the LLY, with the emission system and electrical. The cost of an engine and install from a wreck would likely be less than the cost of an injector replacement. I considered this with mine, but it's too different. I may revisit the idea.

[Dustdevil1]

It is always a possibility. Wondering if anyone knows whether that would be smog-legal. The complication in all this is that my registration is due, and they want the smog test this time. I will likely put a non-op certificate on the registration until I decide what I will do. It won't likely pass smog with this injector problem, and I do not want this thing labeled a gross polluter under any circumstances.

[DmaxMaverick]

I don't know why it wouldn't pass smog. You won't be changing anything relevant to the test. It will have a different appearance (valve covers), but all the smog parts will be there, working. This may be unique to the 2003/4 CA models. The smog test on mine is visual only. No codes, no smoke is a pass. Mine has no smog equipment, to speak of. CA models got EGR and Cat for 2002+ M/Y, while fed models didn't see that until the LLY in 2004.5.

I have a top-end replacement on hold, for a 2002. The owner replaced the engine with a 2001 from a wreck before the smog test requirement, and now can't pass smog (emission parts missing, and an unhappy PCM). It is non-op'd until he decides what to do with it. He has all the parts from the original engine, which only has bottom-end damage.

[Dustdevil1]

OK. Just picked up the truck at the dealer. Here are the balance rate numbers:
Cyl 1: -0.7
Cyl 2: -0.2
Cyl 3: 2.3
Cyl 4: 7.4
Cyl 5: 0.0
Cyl 6: -4.2
Cyl 7: -6.2
Cyl 8: 2.1

Lots of white smoke if you leave the key on with engine NOT running, and/or if you leave it idling for long periods. Essentially the dealer/GM is offering labor for roughly $1350. Not sure if it's worth saving that to do this myself, take the risk of doing something wrong, and do another teardown if balance rates are too far off after the reassembly.

[Dustdevil1]

So, they don't even stick the sniffer up the exhaust pipe? What a racket this is! Right now, I'm pretty sure it won't pass. Thing does smoke at idle, and if you let it idle a few minutes, the smoke gets ridiculous.

[DmaxMaverick]

Yeah, it won't pass. Fortunately, you live in CA. Get you some smog welfare! If a "modern" vehicle (12 or 15 years is the cutoff, I think) doesn't pass, get a quote from the dealer (not including any accommodations) for repair, and go to the smog referee (after it fails the test). You can get a tax credit or some such thing to help with the repair costs. In the end, you're still replacing injectors, but it may be less painful on the pocket.

There are some other things you can try to help "clean it up": Heavy use of cetane improving additives; thicken the fuel with oil (2 cycle or engine oil); fresh air filter (or none, for the test); park around the corner from the shop for a couple/few hours and drive in with a cold fuel tank(cold fuel = heavier fuel = less internal leakage). Desperate times demand desperate measures. If you can get through the test, it'll give you some extra time to make the best decision on a repair.

[Dustdevil1]

I had no idea the State of California was actually subsidizing the cost of meeting its vehicle emissions mandates. In other words, it's "free". Unbelievable. Is it any wonder we're bankrupt?

[DmaxMaverick]

Yeah, that's how it works. You KNOW they're gonna spend all the money allocated (rollover budget), so you may as well get a piece.

[Dustdevil1]

Unfortunately, I ran out of time. Gotta get this back on the road fast without fooling around with the state, and taking a chance on this being labeled a gross polluter. GM has issued a final denial on the cost of repairs, and I took the dealer up on the offer to kick back 15% for my case. Connell Chevrolet is doing what they can to make this right, but I feel GM has shirked a duty to assist with this. They have known this is a design flaw since about 2003 or 2004 at the latest, and have done bare minimum to handle the responsibility for the extremely expensive repairs the owners of these vehicles must bear. Obviously, they can design injectors that work, and they have given owners of vehicles older than 7 years no recourse but to pay out of pocket for a failure that will certainly recur over and over again. Next time, when I have more time to handle this, I will look further into retrofit of 2nd generation heads to my block. This engine is still fairly young, as it has 114k miles and has been very well taken care of. I will not buy another GM vehicle, as I feel they have done the owners of these vehicles a disservice that is extremely costly for any individual to bear. I invested extra money in this vehicle expecting to see reliability and durability beyond that of a gasoline engine. But I have not seen that reliability, nor have many other owners of LB7 generation engines. As I mentioned in another thread, both my father and I have been lifelong GM owners. I've owned 12 of them. They lost a very loyal customer today.

[rapidoxidationman]

All I can add is a recommendation to get rid of the K&N rock filter and replace it with a stock paper filter. The K&N, even properly maintained and not over or under oiled, lets an impressive and alarming amount of fine dust through and that's not doing your piston rings, cylinder walls, valves, or turbo any favors....

[Dustdevil1]

Was thinking of doing that anyway. Picking up my truck today, and I think I'll stop on the way home and get that stocker air filter. About time to change the cat fuel filter, too. I"ve got one of those already. Should be ready for a trip soon.

BTW, did I mention that Connell Chevrolet is a very good dealer? Costa Mesa, Ca. They did right by me with this injector replacement.