Runs rough, stalls and now dead...

[Endoftheline465TD]

My 1994 K3500 6.5TD is doing what several other posts have described on this (very informative) forum regarding stalling and hard starts. Some background info, total miles = 237K, just installed the 3rd 4L80E...otherwise the power plant had been very well behaved requiring little work (I've owned the truck since new).

The truck sat idle for 8 months while I looked for a good used tranny after my 2nd tranny self destructed (I tow abit). I didn't have any problems with engine performance prior to the down time...that's not the case since the 3rd tranny was installed.

At first it ran ok, but after about 80 miles of highway driving (not towing or loaded) it started acting up, cutting out, running rough and stalling. After some cranking it would always start up and I could get back on the road, sometimes in and out of limp mode (where it runs smooth at 50 mph max). It kicked out codes such as: 18, 35, 54, 78. The truck runs ok for a bit but acts up like before and then runs ok...SES (the same codes) only set once after I cleared the codes.

I kept using it since I really needed to catch up on my truck work but today it spuddered then quit for good leaving me stranded on the highway...it didn't set any codes today. I had it towed, and will probably try some more pointers from this forum...just wanted to start my own to add more weight to what seems to be a common problem with these trucks. This is what I've done prior to day:
1) changed fuel filter...no change
2) installed remote mounted PMD with extension harness...no change
3) run wth a loose fuel cap...still acted up, hard to tell if improved
4) changed the oil pressure safety switch...because it was becoming progressively harder to start and found the fuel filter bowl was not filling
5) verified voltage at the lift pump and replaced it, verified the bowl was filling and good flow at the water drain (valve mounted by the thermostat)...I thought this fixed it, but it completely died about 10 miles after this change.

I really don't want to invest too much at this point given the age and what I think will be increasing cost to own this vehicle. Sorry for the long winded story, but my questions are what can I rule out (if anything) at this point and what can I do (min $$ to max $$) prior to diving into the valley and IP? Thanks for reading this post, rc

[racer55]

I borrowed this from Diesel Place,please copy and paste this to your next reply and then edit in the answers as well as the results of the tests-more info is always better:

The Diagnostic Checklist:
Please fill out to best of your knowledge.



1. Describe the problem you are having in detail:

2. Year of truck/engine.
3. Odometer reading (indicate miles or kilometers).
4. Indicate the model number on the Injection pump (starts DS4 or DB2......).
5. Indicate if you know if it’s a 1500, 2500, 2500HD, 3500, 3500HD.
6. Do you have an EGR on the engine? (An F or an S engine code 8th VIN digit)
7. Air Filter condition (visual check).
8. Fuel filter condition (freshly changed, mileage since changed).
9. Location of PMD/FSD? (ex. on pump/remote over intake, behind bumper).
9a. If remote mounted, describe wiring harness (homemade or purchased from which vendor).
9b. Indicate the location and condition of the FSD/IP grounding wire.
10. Outside Temperature (C or F). _____ °

11. Service Engine Light while running?- on/off/intermittent
11a. Service Engine light does glow during start/cranking/bulb check: Yes/No
12.Have you scanned for engine codes? Yes/No
12a. List exact results on engine codes.

13. Condition of Battery terminals (removed, cleaned and tightened).
14. Known condition and age of Batteries.
14a. Are batteries a matched set of same age?
15. Condition of Major Grounds (removed, cleaned and tightened)

16. Does engine crank, or "turn over"?
16a. Does engine start and run?
17. If engine does not start- Crack injector line: do you have fuel? Yes/No
18. Does your Wait To Start light come on?
18a.Number of seconds WTS light is lit.
19. Engine Cranking speed (if you have an accurate tachometer).

20. Are you experiencing Stalling?
20a. Describe the event (upon startup only, down the road, hit a bump, etc...)
20b. Do you notice loss of dash or instruments?
21. Check turbo inlet and air filter for obstructions.
22. In a no-hot start, pour a bottle of room-temp water on the injection pump. Does it start now?
23. Lift pump test - Describe results.

24. Upon cold start, does the radiator hose get hard quickly? Yes/No
25. Upon cold start, do you have excessive white smoke? Yes/No
26. Do you have excessive cranking time before the engine starts? Yes/No
27. Have you used the block heater? Does it affect engine starting? (only try for starting problems).
28. Are all glow plugs in proper working order?

29. During hard acceleration, do you have excessive black smoke? Yes/No
30. Do you have any unusual exhaust smoke issues?
31. Turbo check out - Pass/Fail
32. Indicate fuel that you are using: Bio-Diesel, #2 Diesel, SVO/WVO, other
32a. If running Veggie Oil fuel setup, indicate details of your conversion (homemade or packaged system).
33. Are you using any fuel additives? If so, please list.
34. Upon unscrewing fuel cap, do you have a large vacuum formed in the tank? Yes/No
35. Do you have any service history available that might pertain to the problem you are having?
36. Please indicate any modifications to the vehicle that might help us diagnose better.
__________________

[Endoftheline465TD]

racer55, thanks for the checklist...here is what I have for now:

1. Describe the problem you are having in detail:

2. Year of truck/engine. 1994/6.5 TD (maybe an early '94, I picked it up in Oct of 1993)
3. Odometer reading (indicate miles or kilometers). 237405
4. Indicate the model number on the Injection pump (starts DS4 or DB2......). haven't got to this, will look with daylight, I assume DS4)
5. Indicate if you know if it’s a 1500, 2500, 2500HD, 3500, 3500HD. 3500
6. Do you have an EGR on the engine? (An F or an S engine code 8th VIN digit) F
7. Air Filter condition (visual check). K&N could use a cleaning, will do this tomorrow
8. Fuel filter condition (freshly changed, mileage since changed). Fresh, within the last 500 miles
9. Location of PMD/FSD? (ex. on pump/remote over intake, behind bumper). remote mounted on driver side wheel well
9a. If remote mounted, describe wiring harness (homemade or purchased from which vendor). harness is purchased from an online custom shop ~9 yrs ago. It has OEM connectors, don't recall the vendor's name
9b. Indicate the location and condition of the FSD/IP grounding wire. have never removed or cleaned this, i assume it's in original location
10. Outside Temperature (C or F). _40 -80 F____ °
11. Service Engine Light while running?- on/off/intermittent off, has set SES once during a rough period since the troubles started
11a. Service Engine light does glow during start/cranking/bulb check: Yes/No yes
12.Have you scanned for engine codes? Yes/No I've used the paper clip method and counted the flashes...I've cleared the codes
12a. List exact results on engine codes. 18, 35, 54, 78, 85
13. Condition of Battery terminals (removed, cleaned and tightened). good, cleaned them a couple of months ago, will do it again in daylight
14. Known condition and age of Batteries. 2 new matched installed 17 months ago
14a. Are batteries a matched set of same age? yes
15. Condition of Major Grounds (removed, cleaned and tightened) could use help here in locations and total number of ground points
16. Does engine crank, or "turn over"? engine cranks good and full speed
16a. Does engine start and run? not all the time, when it does, it idles normal
17. If engine does not start- Crack injector line: do you have fuel? Yes/No I haven't done this
18. Does your Wait To Start light come on? I don't recall seeing or having this light
18a.Number of seconds WTS light is lit. I don't recall seeing this light
19. Engine Cranking speed (if you have an accurate tachometer). instrument panel tach only, seems to crank normal speed, maybe 200-300 rpm?
20. Are you experiencing Stalling? sometimes, hard to reproduce consistent faults
20a. Describe the event (upon startup only, down the road, hit a bump, etc...) hard to reproduce consistent faults, sometimes would stall after lite off, down the road - inconsistent faults, not during bumps
20b. Do you notice loss of dash or instruments? no loss of dash information or lighting
21. Check turbo inlet and air filter for obstructions. clear
22. In a no-hot start, pour a bottle of room-temp water on the injection pump. Does it start now? have never done this
23. Lift pump test - Describe results. replaced it 17 Nov, verified voltage while running and no voltage while not running with key off/on
24. Upon cold start, does the radiator hose get hard quickly? Yes/No haven't checked this
25. Upon cold start, do you have excessive white smoke? Yes/No yes, clears up after start about ~10 sec
26. Do you have excessive cranking time before the engine starts? Yes/No sometimes, mainly after stalling...when running well, normal crank time
27. Have you used the block heater? Does it affect engine starting? (only try for starting problems). have not used the block heater since moving to AZ 10 years ago
28. Are all glow plugs in proper working order? I have never changed them, will probably do this once the current issues are resolved
29. During hard acceleration, do you have excessive black smoke? Yes/No sometimes yes, especially when towing up an incline
30. Do you have any unusual exhaust smoke issues? none other than noted
31. Turbo check out - Pass/Fail I've never checked this, I would like know how to do it
32. Indicate fuel that you are using: Bio-Diesel, #2 Diesel, SVO/WVO, other #2 diesel only
32a. If running Veggie Oil fuel setup, indicate details of your conversion (homemade or packaged system). NA
33. Are you using any fuel additives? If so, please list. occasionally will use Diesel Kleen by PS maybe every 5th fill up
34. Upon unscrewing fuel cap, do you have a large vacuum formed in the tank? Yes/No yes, I noticed it since I've been having problems and started running with the cap loose
35. Do you have any service history available that might pertain to the problem you are having? the PMD was changed early while the truck was still under warranty (I assume 3yr/36K)
36. Please indicate any modifications to the vehicle that might help us diagnose better. the truck is pretty much stock, i did replace the exhaust (turbo back) with a 3.5 inch system with hi flow muffler. other than what i've mentioned with the tranny and a normal maintenance items.


Note, I did get it to start this evening, what a relief!

When trying to locate the IP model number, I gave the shut off solenoid connector a tug and squeeze...unfortunately I did the same with the PMD extension harness connector so it maybe one, the other or both...it starts normal trying 2 hours later, so now what...?

[racer55]

Sounds like a PMD problem,is yours mounted on a heatsink?
Did you use heat transfer paste or a heat transfer pad between the PMD and where it is mounted?
Does the PMD have a resistor installed?

Under the hood is a poor location for the PMD to reside.

Wait to start light is also known as glow plug light.

Codes 18,35,54 could be PMD related or optical sensor related,is the OS electronic noise filter still installed?Picture:
http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showpost.php?p=287336&postcount=5

Code 78 is wastegate solenoid fault.Can contribute to black smoke issues because of lack of boost.
Code 85 is transmission gear fault.

Turbo check is for free spinning and no play in the bushings side to side or up/down.

Grounds are as follows:
3 ground wires mounted on a stud at the rear of the intake on passenger side.
Body to engine ground in same area(back of cylinder head?
Frame to engine near starter.
Both battery cable grounds on intake studs.

IP harness ground must be located under an optical sensor screw on the IP,or another secure ground on the IP-adding a battery to IP ground does no harm and may help..

[Endoftheline465TD]

I really appreciate all the good information...as for the PMD, it is mounted on a finned heatsink (that's the way it came to me when purchased w/the harness 9 yrs ago) and I recall the resistor was included, but haven't verified. I also assume the heatransfer medium was part of the assembly...can't find the original paper work on these.

The glow plug light function is normal i.e. not different from how it has always functioned. I checked the turbo a couple of months ago with no apparent problems...free wheeling, no wobble etc. Will reverify this...

I will clean the grounds now that I know where they are...thanks for the locations. I did find the OS noise filter still installed. What kind of scanner should I look for? I understand this is OBD I?

The truck started normal this morning ~50 deg F, I left it idling and about 5 minutes running normal it quit on its own without warning. It did start right back up though...thanks for all the help!

rc

[racer55]

GMTD ScanTech is a laptop/PC(windows) based scan tool that is the very best aftermarket option for your truck.

Enghmotors or leroydiesel.com are both vendors of the software and cable required.

I would remove the OS noise filter completely and plug the harness directly into the OS,then go to radio shack and get enough ferrite core to put on each OS harness wire(3 pieces?).
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103222

Still sounds like the PMD is failing to me,crack an injector line loose and see if the fuel is getting to an injector when the no start/stall happens.

Move the PMD/heatsink combo outside the engine bay when you get a new 1 if required to under/behind the frt bumper or on a rad support behind the grill.

Autozone sells a limited lifetime warranty PMD for slightly more than a 1 year warranty PMD costs and is the route I would take.Listed as dorman part # 904-104

[Endoftheline465TD]

racer55,

thanks much for your time and help...I ordered the cable for the GMTD scan tech application. how much can i do with the free basic version of the software. i assume the full "tech" version will be needed? i expect the cable in a few days and will likely post what i see...do you have something i should definitely look for? appreciate it, rc

[racer55]

You can monitor most all computer parameters with the free version,the paid version is required for 2 way communication.

2 way communication allows functions like killing cylinders,TDCO relearn,activating solenoids ect.

[JohnC]

If the problems started right after the trans install, I'd be looking for loose wires, dirty or incorrectly installed connectors, ground wires not grounded, etc.

[Endoftheline465TD]

JohnC, I kept coming back to this (your point)...I couldn't get past that the truck ran well (or good enough for my purposes) prior to the tranny giving out. It baffled me, what happened while the truck sat idle (or during the tranny install) to make the engine performance take such a dive.
I thought I had it whipped when I found that new PMD w/extension harness I had purchased 9 yrs ago...unfortunately, it didn't make much difference after I installed it.
I'm going over the grounds, connections etc. and looking forward to scanning with the application recommended by racer55. Will keep you all posted...thanks for the suggestions. rc

[Endoftheline465TD]

Update for my 1994 6.5TD, I removed the intake manifold to locate the source of a "fuel in valley" leak. I found the supply line from fuel filter housing to IP oozing fuel when moved, squeezed and pulled at the IP inlet fitting. I replaced all (I could find) fuel related lines from the firewall forward and checked all electrical connectors for any signs of wear or burnout. I also noted the data on the IP as follows:
Stanadyne Model No - D5 DS4831 S5068,
Serial No - 8232713,
MFG No - 10225929

I am still waiting on the PC cable for the diagnostic program recommended above. I'm not sure if the fuel leak on the supply line was the culprit, but I think it will help isolate any other collateral issues. Are there any other obvious items I can do while the intake manifold is out? Thanks!

[phantom309]

Definitely could have been slurping a little air,.

the obd1 computers aren't that sophisticated,.if its not setting codes, the scanware won't help much,.best of luck tho,.

Nick

[Endoftheline465TD]

Nick,
thanks...I'm hoping this fuel line leak is the end of it, but I'm not holding my breath. I haven't had time to put it all together, but will report back when it's back on the road...I'll see what else this truck has to throw at me then. will post soon. thanks again...

bob

[mhotao]

Have had my 6.5 since new. Have had PMD problems /replaced 4 times @ 244000 miles. Changed again last April lasted til July w 3000 miles put on truck. Changed PMD again problem gone until now. Back to stalling shutting off etc. Is there any relays and such I should be looking at that could be giving me same symptons. My repair shop seems to feel that it can,t be the PMD box again. He swears they have fixed the initial problems Stanadyne had. Any help would be great...

[racer55]

Have had my 6.5 since new. Have had PMD problems /replaced 4 times @ 244000 miles. Changed again last April lasted til July w 3000 miles put on truck. Changed PMD again problem gone until now. Back to stalling shutting off etc. Is there any relays and such I should be looking at that could be giving me same symptons. My repair shop seems to feel that it can,t be the PMD box again. He swears they have fixed the initial problems Stanadyne had. Any help would be great...

It is best to start your own thread with new problems.

Ignition switches can fail and cause stalling.

Where is your PMD mounted currently?

[mhotao]

Yes I thought i was writing a new thread my mistake... but it has been relocated

[Endoftheline465TD]

Update, put the intake manifold back on, new fuel lines, new fuel filter and replaced the harness from main connector to IP to (remote) PMD. Also installed a thermostat I had forgot I removed a couple of summers ago after it overheated on the highway. I ran it yesterday for a couple of hours highway/in town...didn't have any symptoms, stalling, hiccups or rough running. Next plan to hitch up an equipment trailer to test under load.

A couple items of concern: it still spots diesel fuel in the driveway, not at shut down, more like 30-45 minutes after running. It seems to occur after it cools(?) as the fuel appears on the exhaust cross over, more on the passenger side of center. Since my troubles started after the tranny was changed out and the truck had sat for 6-7 months, I thought the problem might be more related to fuel leaks than electric...of course, I'm not ruling anything out.

I can't find any fuel leaks from the lift pump to the fuel fillter. So far, it runs fine, just troubled by the fuel spots...more soon, thanks for reading/responding.

bob c

[racer55]

Water in fuel sensor Oring or fuel heater Oring are common after shutdown fuel leak spots that result in fuel in the engine valley and dripping to the crossover area.
Very likely replacing those Orings in the filter manager will help with starting and solve the leak.

[Endoftheline465TD]

racer55, thanks for the info...what do you recommend for the o-rings? Dealer or can they be found aftermarket? I assume changing them is a straightforward process?
Also, I notice the LP runs for a few seconds after shutdown, is that normal? Is this supposed to pressurize the fuel system, and if so, should the system hold pressure until next start? Thanks in advance...bob c

[racer55]

Dealer is the easiest place to get the Orings.

LP running after shutdown is normal while the oil pressure bleeds off,it is not meant to hold pressure until the next start.

[moondoggie]

Good Day

Grounds, grounds, grounds. My 95 (no longer have) ran perfectly until I idled it on the driveway until it got a little hot (nowhere near overheated, just hotter than I had seen otherwise). After this, the SES light came on & the cruise control wouldn't work. Otherwise, the truck ran perfectly.

I did a LOT of research on old topics, then opened a new topic myself, summarized what I'd read, & asked for any additions. Long story short, I PM'd every ground I could find, & the problem went away & never came back (many years since with no problems).

On the 95, one of the grounds is on the frame directly under the drain for the HVAC condensate. All of the grounds needed PM, but this one was real bad.

Can you figure my hot idle situation causing this? I sure can't. A coincidence, I guess...

Good Luck & Blessings!

on edit: It's been so long since I've been on the Page that I read only the first page & posted. I hope your problem is fixed; Blessings!

[Endoftheline465TD]

moondoggie,

thanks for the ground advice...i reseated the grounds identified by racer55 and did a number of other items too...so far so good. i've been running with no issues.

side note, i've been enjoying monitoring operating parameters via the GMTD link on my laptop...i just need someone else to drive since i kind of get fixed on what's going on with the GMTD display.

thanks to all post(ers) for all the good advice, i have learned so much more about my truck because of this forum. i'll be checking in soon.

bob c